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How is Project M so easy?

Pwnz0rz Man

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I already made my point and proved that lowering the skill needed for tech will lower the skill ceiling. You say it doesn't matter and I say it does.
Lowering the tech barrier doesn't affect the skill ceiling at all because the same people who had mastered the tech have still mastered the tech. Lowering the skill floor only helps to make the game more accessible and gives low and intermediately skilled players a hand in getting tech down that felt clunky and pretty unforgiving to non-pros in Melee. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. Now if they were just straight up removing tech, that would lower the ceiling, but that isn't what's happening here and you know it.
 

Diabolical

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Lowering the tech barrier doesn't affect the skill ceiling at all because the same people who had mastered the tech have still mastered the tech. Lowering the skill floor only helps to make the game more accessible and gives low and intermediately skilled players a hand in getting tech down that felt clunky and pretty unforgiving to non-pros in Melee. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. Now if they were just straight up removing tech, that would lower the ceiling, but that isn't what's happening here and you know it.
Oh, so you are saying that a game where all the most technical mechanics can be executed with a single button press at any given time would still have a high skill ceiling???? Making it easier to do tech just means that playing at a high level is easy and thus the skill ceiling is significantly lowered
 

Pwnz0rz Man

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Oh, so you are saying that a game where all the most technical mechanics can be executed with a single button press at any given time would still have a high skill ceiling???? Making it easier to do tech just means that playing at a high level is easy and thus the skill ceiling is significantly lowered
A game's tech does not have to be overtly difficult in order for a game to be deep and therefore have a high skill ceiling. That single button game could potentially have a high skill ceiling, but you didn't give much information about this hypothetical game, I suspect it's in order to frame it to suit your viewpoint better.

Tech being easy isn't the same thing as being able to match the best players with no effort. Being able to do something is not the same as knowing why to do it or knowing when to do it. It's still going to take experience and exposure from playing with people better than you in order to reach that plateau.
 

Diabolical

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A game's tech does not have to be overtly difficult in order for a game to be deep and therefore have a high skill ceiling. That single button game could potentially have a high skill ceiling, but you didn't give much information about this hypothetical game, I suspect it's in order to frame it to suit your viewpoint better.

Tech being easy isn't the same thing as being able to match the best players with no effort. Being able to do something is not the same as knowing why to do it or knowing when to do it. It's still going to take experience and exposure from playing with people better than you in order to reach that plateau.
Brawl is good example of a game that still retains depth without much tech required because there are enough options to play it all strategical minded (which is the only way you can play it competively). But generally a form of extra technical depth is better for a more interesting competitive environment. It is also better to judge people's ability at the game. If someone has only played PM Fox and mastered him then played Melee they would lose control of Fox, why? Because they suck. They aren't accurate, technical or consistent enough when judged in the Melee environment and that is a fair judgement. Like if you can't run fast enough in a game of Football, you deserve to be kicked off the team. You think to have everyone run at the same speed would be a fairer judge of who is best because that is just a barrier of entry? Even if that's possible I don't think so at all because having more variables that chose the correct winner is a better criteria of skill; as long as each variable is relatively balance and for Melee it is.
 
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Pwnz0rz Man

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Brawl is good example of a game that still retains depth without much tech required because there are enough options to play it all strategical minded (which is the only way you can play it competively). But generally a form of extra technical depth is better for a more interesting competitive environment. It is also better to judge people's ability at the game. If someone has only played PM Fox and mastered him then played Melee they would lose control of Fox, why? Because they suck. They aren't accurate, technical or consistent enough when judged in the Melee environment and that is a fair judgement. Like if you can't run fast enough in a game of Football, you deserve to be kicked off the team. You think to have everyone run at the same speed would be a fairer judge of who is best because that is just a barrier of entry? Even if that's possible I don't think so at all because having more variables that chose the correct winner is a better criteria of skill; as long as each variable is relatively balance and for Melee it is.
Any game can have depth, even something ridiculously simple. Simple can be just as interesting as something complicated, it purely depends on the manner that it is presented.

What on Earth does your Melee Fox comparison have to do with anything and how does it go to proving your point asides from you simply asserting that it is a fact and saying that it is because it's a fair judgement? Further more, what does your football running speed have to do with anything that I said? You're just making simplified arguments that you can Kool-Aid man through and look like you've more of a point that you seem to. =/
 

Diabolical

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Any game can have depth, even something ridiculously simple. Simple can be just as interesting as something complicated, it purely depends on the manner that it is presented.

What on Earth does your Melee Fox comparison have to do with anything and how does it go to proving your point asides from you simply asserting that it is a fact and saying that it is because it's a fair judgement? Further more, what does your football running speed have to do with anything that I said? You're just making simplified arguments that you can Kool-Aid man through and look like you've more of a point that you seem to. =/
My argument is that PM's easier execution of tech means that the game is not measuring who is being more accurate technically and thus lowering the skill ceiling because they can focus on other skills rather than tech if it is easier. PM fox's do have a hard time playing Melee for this reason.
 

Pwnz0rz Man

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My argument is that PM's easier execution of tech means that the game is not measuring who is being more accurate technically and thus lowering the skill ceiling because they can focus on other skills rather than tech if it is easier. PM fox's do have a hard time playing Melee for this reason.
Except that point is completely moot as people that do succeed in tech during PM's window, are succeeding in tech. This is not a 1:1 re-creation of Melee and never will be. You don't have to be able to succeed in Melee in order to be able to succeed in PM. It sounds more like your argument is "This game isn't more like Melee and as a result, it will never be good enough." I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's certainly what it sounds like.

I was actually going to point that game out, but I don't quite know enough about it to have been able to reliably back up those claims.
 
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Diabolical

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Except that point is completely moot as people that do succeed in tech during PM's window, are succeeding in tech. This is not a 1:1 re-creation of Melee and never will be. You don't have to be able to succeed in Melee in order to be able to succeed in PM. It sounds more like your argument is "This game isn't more like Melee and as a result, it will never be good enough." I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's certainly what it sounds like.


I was actually going to point that game out, but I don't quite know enough about it to have been able to reliably back up those claims.
What I am saying is "Melee is a better measure of skill" because more things matter in Melee than PM. Maybe in the future when matchups are more defined in PM my opinion will change but right now even Melee matchups are more important to know in the current meta than PM (since PM's matchups are basically unknown, especially if it keeps updating). Also when I say better measure of skill I of course mean higher skill ceiling.
 

QuickRat

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Melee has lasted over 13 years because of the near limitless skill ceiling. Look back at the top characters over time - Shiek then Marth, Falco and now Fox. If Melee Fox was PM Fox then Melee wouldn't be played at all because Fox's skill ceiling would be sooooooo low that he would have always been top tier and the game would have been solved
That's not a "easiness" issue, it's a balance one. I would say characters like Ness, which are rubbish in Melee and completely useless, are pretty viable in PM. Ness' skill ceiling is amazingly and awesomely higher in PM. This is something that happens with almost every single character plus almost 20 new ones So in overall and absolute terms, PM skill ceiling is higher than Melee's.

And also, I think that "skill ceiling decrease" for Melee top characters in PM is debatable. The same way "easy" and "worse" are not the same, "different" and "low skill ceiling" are different.
 

Pwnz0rz Man

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What I am saying is "Melee is a better measure of skill" because more things matter in Melee than PM. Maybe in the future when matchups are more defined in PM my opinion will change but right now even Melee matchups are more important to know in the current meta than PM (since PM's matchups are basically unknown, especially if it keeps updating). Also when I say better measure of skill I of course mean higher skill ceiling.
After that initial silly statement, should I even keep reading? Really? Things matter more in Melee?

I would not say that Melee's skill ceiling is higher than PM's as PM has more advanced techs as well as more match-ups to keep in mind. I would say the skill floor certainly is, but again, I don't think that a high skill floor is necessarily a good thing.
 

Diabolical

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After that initial silly statement, should I even keep reading? Really? Things matter more in Melee?

I would not say that Melee's skill ceiling is higher than PM's as PM has more advanced techs as well as more match-ups to keep in mind. I would say the skill floor certainly is, but again, I don't think that a high skill floor is necessarily a good thing.
Skill floor is equal for all smash games. All fundamentals are so very easy and simple to pick up and play. What you don't seem to get is that the advanced techniques that measure skill....should be advanced. It should be difficult to do a reverse waveshines but it isn't! It isn't testing any skill and thus not advanced, well am generalising. PM's tech skill is still tech skill but the fact it is easier means that it is less impressive and so not advanced. Intermediate, even beginners could master some of the tech skill in PM and that's not impressive or a measure of skill. Making tech skill easy just makes it become a fundamental like jumping and so means there is less advanced stuff to master
 

Pwnz0rz Man

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Skill floor is equal for all smash games. All fundamentals are so very easy and simple to pick up and play. What you don't seem to get is that the advanced techniques that measure skill....should be advanced. It should be difficult to do a reverse waveshines but it isn't! It isn't testing any skill and thus not advanced, well am generalising. PM's tech skill is still tech skill but the fact it is easier means that it is less impressive and so not advanced. Intermediate, even beginners could master some of the tech skill in PM and that's not impressive or a measure of skill. Making tech skill easy just makes it become a fundamental like jumping and so means there is less advanced stuff to master
Ah so it matters to you because you're personally unimpressed with people that learn tech skill from PM? You're not impressed because it's easier to do, therefore none of it matters in comparison to learning it in Melee, a less forgiving environment to practice in.

It seems like your arguments are pretty shallow. Fundamentals are what matter most as they're what take most players the longest to really get and implement correctly into their play. You can learn how to do flashy advanced techniques, and in PM it's easier to do, sure. However, all the advanced tech in the world does nothing for you if you don't have a well grounded understanding of the fundamentals. By making it easier to get the hang of these advanced techniques, PM seems to be allowing us to focus primarily on the fundamentals, the more instrumental portion of the game.
 

Diabolical

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Ah so it matters to you because you're personally unimpressed with people that learn tech skill from PM? You're not impressed because it's easier to do, therefore none of it matters in comparison to learning it in Melee, a less forgiving environment to practice in.

It seems like your arguments are pretty shallow. Fundamentals are what matter most as they're what take most players the longest to really get and implement correctly into their play. You can learn how to do flashy advanced techniques, and in PM it's easier to do, sure. However, all the advanced tech in the world does nothing for you if you don't have a well grounded understanding of the fundamentals. By making it easier to get the hang of these advanced techniques, PM seems to be allowing us to focus primarily on the fundamentals, the more instrumental portion of the game.
Yep, only fundamentals and match-ups in PM matter. In Melee you need Fundamentals, match-up research AND high technical skill making a much higher skill ceiling. Don't have your tech skill consistent enough in Melee? You lose
 
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Pwnz0rz Man

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Yep, only fundamentals and match-ups in PM matter. In Melee you need Fundamentals, match-up research AND high technical skill making a much higher skill ceiling. Don't have your tech skill consistent enough in Melee? You lose
The same can be said of PM. If you make too many technical mistakes in high level play, you're going to suffer.
 

Diabolical

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The same can be said of PM. If you make too many technical mistakes in high level play, you're going to suffer.
You won't make mistakes, the game is too easy. Too many frames given to techs making a shallow experience. At the very least, mistakes in techs will happen rarely when in Melee they happen frequently.....which is good. It just means the meta is evolving over time and the skill ceiling is still raising until the glorious 20XX. All hail 20XX
 

Fortress

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Pointing out that no acknowledgement of Divekick's depth was given here.

If your definition of 'skill ceilings' and 'technical prowess' boils down to 'too many frames', then you're looking at it in the shallowest way you possibly can. Seriously, why even bother throwing around terms like 'meta', 'skill ceiling', and 'frames' when the discussion should be purely about mechanical differences between the games being compared. If that's as deep as you are, knowing the phrase 'frame data' and the term 'metagame', then pat yourself on the back, because you're aware of 1% of ha game on the whole.. 'Frame data' and abundance of tech a good fighter does not always make.

See: Divekick, where less proves to be a lot, lot more, and in a good way.

RE: Project M is simply easier to access and play from a mechanical standpoint because it eliminates mechanical quirks such as the control stick deadzone of Melee (probably one of the bigger ones). Input functions such as the double-trigger mechanic of Project M make accessing certain techniques easier and faster than available in Melee.

If the game is 'easy', it's more than likely because it's nearly 1:1 mechanically-based on the game you're coming from, not because of the game itself (granted, there are nice mechanical cleanups performed by the PMDT).

This argument comes up every so often and always boils down to somebody whining about how PM being easier isn't bad, and some snob droning on about how poor mechanical design makes the game deeper somehow.

Bottom line is that you're both wrong, and more streamlined ways to access and utilize the same mechanics is an improvement in every other game (in whatever genre) out there on the market, and the same applies here.

Why is this not locked?
 
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Pwnz0rz Man

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You won't make mistakes, the game is too easy. Too many frames given to techs making a shallow experience. At the very least, mistakes in techs will happen rarely when in Melee they happen frequently.....which is good. It just means the meta is evolving over time and the skill ceiling is still raising until the glorious 20XX. All hail 20XX
I had this nagging feeling that you were a Melee apologist who thinks that in order to have any value, PM should be practically identical to it. So happy that you've proven my assertion false...
 

MechWarriorNY

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Please lock this thread and do something disciplinary about that willful troll.
And stop taking
, you blockheads...
These are entirely different types of games, you can't even compare how easy one is next to the other.
People do that on an hourly basis in any gaming community. In this very thread, at that.
Don't you mean "shouldn't"?
 
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Diabolical

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Pointing out that no acknowledgement of Divekick's depth was given here.

If your definition of 'skill ceilings' and 'technical prowess' boils down to 'too many frames', then you're looking at it in the shallowest way you possibly can. Seriously, why even bother throwing around terms like 'meta', 'skill ceiling', and 'frames' when the discussion should be purely about mechanical differences between the games being compared. If that's as deep as you are, knowing the phrase 'frame data' and the term 'metagame', then pat yourself on the back, because you're aware of 1% of ha game on the whole.. 'Frame data' and abundance of tech a good fighter does not always make.

See: Divekick, where less proves to be a lot, lot more, and in a good way.
For me tech skill is like physical ability in "real life" sports like Tennis or Football. I believe someone that can kick a ball further and more accurately should be reconised and be rewarded for this skill and the game should favour some advantage to those with a stronger physical ability. Melee is better at rewarding technical accuracy
 
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Fortress

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What the **** are you talking about.

Maylay/PM are two entirely different games that reward the player for their prowess in entirely different ways. Is one easier to play than the other? Sure, no doubt. Is that better? Depends on who you ask. But none can be 'better at rewarding a player for technical accuracy'.

You either can 100% do a wavedash or you 100% cannot, for example. If you attempt it, you will do it, or you will not. Both games 'reward' the player in the same way, by providing the movement we associate with the technique (the actual statistics on the boost might vary for some characters between the two games, but that is not the discussion that you're bringing up, go ahead and try and change the topic again). Now, if Maylay's wavedashing healed you 100% on success and PM's inflicted the same amount on success, I'd agree with you, but they don't.

If Melee's short hopping gave you a stock if you did it, and PM's took one when you did it, I'd agree with you. But they don't.

Just be quiet.

Or quit changing the ****ing topic every post.

Or just go to sleep in a plastic bag. I don't care.
 
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Diabolical

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What the **** are you talking about.

Maylay/PM are two entirely different games that reward the player for their prowess in entirely different ways. Is one easier to play than the other? Sure, no doubt. Is that better? Depends on who you ask. But none can be 'better at rewarding a player for technical accuracy'.

You either can 100% do a wavedash or you 100% cannot, for example. If you attempt it, you will do it, or you will not. Both games 'reward' the player in the same way, by providing the movement we associate with the technique. Now, if Maylay's wavedashing healed you 100% on success and PM's inflicted the same amount on success, I'd agree with you, but they don't.

If Melee's short hopping gave you a stock if you did it, and PM's took one when you did it, I'd agree with you. But they don't.

Just be quiet.
But you have extra frames to do many techs in PM, short hopping for example. Frame perfect short hop will reward you the same in both games but if you are a few frames late in Melee you will jump instead. PM will most likely give you a short hop because timing is more lenient meaning Melee rewards are only for the most accurate.
Also stop insulting me, this is a debate or discussion not a war
 
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Fortress

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Frames, something, something, tech, something Maylay, something, something, fight games, something, plastic bag.

I'm getting drunk for New Year's. And playing the game. And being good at it. And Melee. And PM. Have fun arguing over both.
 

Diabolical

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Frames, something, something, tech, something Maylay, something, something, fight games, something, plastic bag.

I'm getting drunk for New Year's. And playing the game. And being good at it. And Melee. And PM. Have fun arguing over both.
You are the one that joined a thread about both games. Whatever, have a happy new years to you and everyone else!
 

Vashimus

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"Things should be made harder because I want newer players to practice long and hard to do what I do!"

What that mentality essentially tells me is you want to have the execution-advantage over other players because your own mindgames are lacking and you're afraid of being outplayed by your opponent.
 

Foo

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Execution advantage is an important part of smash tho
That is absolutely true, but it doesn't need to be unnecessarily hard. Try naming techs in smash that could be made more simple with sacrificing depth and options. The only one that really comes to mind is L-canceling. Mechanical depth is great, but only if you have to hit buttons quickly to do things quickly, not having to hit buttons quickly (or hard) for it's own sake. You shouldn't make inputs harder than they have to be.
 

Strong Badam

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"More frames to do tech"

Yeah, a single frame of physics delay totally makes everything so much easier
It actually doesn't make anything easier. Outside of shorthopping (which even a below-average player can do in Melee consistently anyway) and dashing C-stick UpSmash, the only thing that makes things easier is the sensitivity of the control stick and dashing backwards out of endlag being a 2 frame window (like dashing forward) instead of a 1 frame window (or something like that; it's 1 frame more lenient). Many top level Melee players (such as Hax and Mew2King) have actually complained about Melee's (lack of) sensitivity on certain inputs, leading them to seek out particularly "good" controllers specifically to be able to do something consistently. This is usually not a good indication of good depth in the form of difficulty; it is frustrating and tests the ability of a player to acquire proficient equipment, not their ability to play the game and execute its mechanics.

Usually the people who argue that a game should be harder for the sake of being harder are bad at every game and aren't particularly secure about their ability; if something that they struggled heavily to master were to become slightly easier for others, it insults what little skill they have acquired, even though they are still able to perform it. Higher level players who have no issue executing the tech don't mind if it is made easier, because as Warhawk stated earlier, Smash is a game that draws its difficulty from its opponents. It doesn't matter how difficult the game is to execute, if you're beating up on a garbage player the game is "easy" to win in. Similarly, if you're playing a top level player, it becomes extremely hard to win in. The interactions between players give the game depth and difficulty. Its mechanics make the game appealing, fun, and gives those interactions more branches to provide layers of options. A mechanic becoming easier doesn't matter; the interaction remains the same and the depth of those opponents interacting with each other is not lost. If you were to actually remove mechanics to try to make it easier, yes, depth would be lost, but Project M has not done this; that argument is not valid here.

If you seriously think you start losing in this game due to its "ease" (?? if a game is easier, both players get the same advantage), it's more likely because of character balance (your character becoming worse, or theirs becoming better), a stagelist that you're not proficient at traversing, and additional advanced techniques that you failed to take advantage of in the same way as your opponent.

Additionally if a character becomes broken when they are "easier" to play with all else being equal, they were actually broken in the first place, and bad for the game. Difficulty is not a balancing mechanism, characters should just be difficult to play (and always are at top level) regardless to make the game rewarding.
 
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Paquito

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Lowering the tech barrier doesn't affect the skill ceiling at all because the same people who had mastered the tech have still mastered the tech. Lowering the skill floor only helps to make the game more accessible and gives low and intermediately skilled players a hand in getting tech down that felt clunky and pretty unforgiving to non-pros in Melee. Making the game more accessible is a good thing. Now if they were just straight up removing tech, that would lower the ceiling, but that isn't what's happening here and you know it.
Case-in-point, I've only ever casually played Smash, and only recently decided to try to play competitively and start mastering the tech. Since no one that lives near me is into Smash, that's pretty much all I can do where I live.

So while the PM tech may be easier for me to learn, I still get beaten pretty soundly when I play against experienced competitive players. The real skill of any fighting-game isn't mastering the tech, it's knowing exactly when and how to use that tech in various MUs, against various opponents, and being able to adapt to different situations.


Okay, I am going to put us in an extreme situation so you get my point. What if all you had to do was push one button at anytime to do the most complex technical stuff in the game? What if there was no skill involved in the mechanics of the game? Well the game would be one big gimmick. Street Fighter 4 on the 3DS is exactly what this is, a gimmick. It does take away the skill ceiling, most of the skill ceiling in fact.
If the next PM release changed Smash attack inputs to involve more buttons and a more complicated movement of the thumbstick, would you argue they've raised the skill ceiling?
 
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Diabolical

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If the next PM release changed Smash attack inputs to involve more buttons and a more complicated movement of the thumbstick, would you argue they've raised the skill ceiling?
The game has to be balanced to reward the skill for that to be a viable decision. You know Brawl had all the pivot mechanics that Smash4 has but no one that was good at Brawl mastered it because there was no point. Not just because of tripping but also because those mobility options didn't give any useful advantage in a game based on defense. A more extreme example is Brawl has many many true combos but they require frame precision and perfect read of DI. To answer your question; as long as the meatgame encourages you to Smash attack even if it is harder the Skill ceiling will be increased. Like how Shield dropping was known from basically Melee's inception but now it is a part of the game that every top player is learning because the ceiling has been raising over time.
 

Foo

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The game has to be balanced to reward the skill for that to be a viable decision. You know Brawl had all the pivot mechanics that Smash4 has but no one that was good at Brawl mastered it because there was no point. Not just because of tripping but also because those mobility options didn't give any useful advantage in a game based on defense. A more extreme example is Brawl has many many true combos but they require frame precision and perfect read of DI. To answer your question; as long as the meatgame encourages you to Smash attack even if it is harder the Skill ceiling will be increased. Like how Shield dropping was known from basically Melee's inception but now it is a part of the game that every top player is learning because the ceiling has been raising over time.
And once again you ignore every point any of us ever mad and make up more BS. Even still, you realize that fox is still the best character in PM, right? Lucario is probably more technical than fox anyway.
 
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Pwnz0rz Man

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And once again you ignore every point any of us ever mad and make up more BS. Even still, you realize that fox is still the best character in PM, right? Lucario is probably more technical than fox anyway.
All you really need to do is look at the guy's portrait. It seems pretty obvious that he's just screwing with us. I gave up bashing my head against that brick wall.
 

Diabolical

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Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
And once again you ignore every point any of us ever mad and make up more BS. Even still, you realize that fox is still the best character in PM, right? Lucario is probably more technical than fox anyway.
Balance isn't what this discussion is about and I would be a fool to state I have knowledge of how balanced PM is right now anyway. PM 3.0 was advertised and thought to be perfectly balanced then turned into a more skewed concept of balanced than Brawl was. (Auto combos, really??). Fox can easily be a terrible character in PM since most characters have anti fast faller combos but I am not going to ramble on balance since this is not the point of this discussion.....
Actually since you are bringing up random other topics you should take your own advice and stop talking BS and actually read what I say
 

PootisKonga

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
842
Location
Medford, NY
>Fox
>Terrible

Pick one

On topic, P:M's not much easier. A delay of 1/60 seconds and a lack of control stick dead zones are all it has in terms of difference in tech difficulty IIRC
 
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