How Do You Feel About Counters?

[Signia]

@ JamietheAuraUser @ Conda

No, the true significance of a command grab is that it allows you to grab people on the ground from the air. Without a command grab, someone can just shield when you're going to land and cover all options. If you have a command grab you can actually force a timing mixup in air-to-ground situations. Command grab beats shieldgrab, spot dodge beats command grab, delayed attack beats spot dodge, shieldgrab beats delayed attack.

Counters aren't even as game-changing as command grabs. You accomplish something similar with air dodges and spot dodges. Both beat attacks at certain timings, and both can be baited out. The difference is in the risk and reward for the option, not the addition of a new mixup.

Baiting things out by mixing up your timings is part of the game's RPS. Timing mixups are the only mixups this game has, since there are invincible dodges that beat everything.

 

[Conda]

@ JamietheAuraUser @ Conda

No, the true significance of a command grab is that it allows you to grab people on the ground from the air. Without a command grab, someone can just shield when you're going to land and cover all options. If you have a command grab you can actually force a timing mixup in air-to-ground situations. Command grab beats shieldgrab, spot dodge beats command grab, delayed attack beats spot dodge, shieldgrab beats delayed attack. I thought this was common knowledge.

Counters aren't even as game-changing as command grabs. You accomplish something similar with air dodges and spot dodges. Both beat attacks at certain timings, and both can be baited out. The difference is in the risk and reward for the option, not the addition of a new mixup.

Airdodge+attack in the air is not the same as an aerial counter, especially in potential strength. More often then not in Smash 4, if you get a read on an aerial attack, you're usually better off countering than airdodging and attacking afterward. This is the first Smash where this is the case - usually it was always better to airdodge and then punish with an aerial. But Counter can kill now, and the damage/knockback/window rocks.

Also, I covered the 'air-to-ground command grab' strength in my post.
It isn't a new option, though, as you're still simply grabbing a shielded opponent. Sure, you can do it better - it's an improved version of the 'grab' option that has more utility, but not a wholly new option. It's an improved option, but not another tool in the 'rock paper scissors' design of how Smash works. Counters, now that they'll actually be utilized as a worthy option more often, is.

"Air-to-ground situations" are also more narrow than "aerial situations" in any case, and is why command grabs haven't been too big a deal in melee and brawl. They also didn't get a buff, unlike counters, and thus won't see a marked increase in use, and thus won't change the metagame as much.

 

[Signia]

@ Conda

Ok, but you seem to be writing off the significance of air-to-ground grabbing. It really does add a new mixup in a common situation. It is not a buffed version of grabbing; landing and grabbing can be covered by grabbing in response to the landing. They also come at completely different timings. You could effectively mix someone up by using both those options in tandem, of course it's significant to have one of them instead of not having one of them.

I would argue that it is counters that are a buffed version of air dodging. Rather, it is higher risk, higher reward version. You're not always better off countering instead of air dodging. The vulnerability window for countering is massive, and for air dodging there's a measly 5 frames and the landing lag if they don't cancel the air dodge with something.

A difference in risk/reward is a completely acceptable variation in characters.

 

[Conda]

@ Conda

Ok, but you seem to be writing off the significance of air-to-ground grabbing. It really does add a new mixup in a common situation. It is not a buffed version of grabbing; landing and grabbing can be covered by grabbing in response to the landing. They also come at completely different timings. You could effectively mix someone up by using both those options in tandem, of course it's significant to have one of them instead of not having one of them.

I would argue that it is counters that are a buffed version of air dodging. Rather, it is higher risk, higher reward version. You're not always better off countering instead of air dodging. The vulnerability window for countering is massive, and for air dodging there's a measly 5 frames and the landing lag if they don't cancel the air dodge with something.

A difference in risk/reward is a completely acceptable variation in characters.

I absolutely agree - air-to-ground command grabs are an awesome mixup. But not a rock-paper-scissors option they have against their opponent. Counters are - a better way of countering aerials instead of airdodging+attacking adds a whole new element to aerial combat for these characters (and against these characters).

Air-to-ground command grabs are simply faster ways to punish shielded ground opponents while you're in the air. Super cool and powerful as a grab option, but still just a beefed up grab option.

I agree somewhat with your description of counters as an alt version of air dodging, but the design behind counter as a mechanic has more meat to it. I think they mean more because, when used against another aerial opponent, it is a wholly new option that your opponent doesnt have (if they dont have their own version of counter). Once you airdodge, your opponent can react and read that you may followup attack. Not the case for counters - they have their own set of pros and cons, which makes them a new.

Command grabs are great, but grabbing grounded+shielded opponent (the scissors to the paper, if you will) is a better way of landing+grabbing. Air-countering is, imo, not simply a 'better way of airdodging+attacking', as it's an option that is usable in the air vs aerial opponents, but also versus grounded opponents who are trying to attack you while you're in the air. It's a more fleshed out combat option with its own set of pros and cons, whilst command grabs are a beefed up version of grabs.

 

[Signia]

Again, counters and dodges (air and spot) serve the same purpose. Both can be baited out and punished. Both give reward for dodging an attack. The punishment and the reward are just different, and counters do not necessarily have better risk/reward ratio than dodges. Counters are heavily, heavily punishable. The only thing you could say is that having counter as an option means you have a kill move from a disadvantaged position, which is a pretty big deal. However, it is standard for characters to vary based on where they can get their kills from: throws, aerials, smash attacks, etc. Command grabs is a much more drastic variation.

Landing and grabbing is much more limited than the strategies that are possible with Command grabs. The difference in speed is a huge deal. You can't expect to land and grab against someone who is shielding on a platform or someone that is standing over you at the ledge. Player-types that shield-grab on reaction to landing will not fall for the tomahawk, and there's no wavelanding to discourage that behavior like I would in Melee. You need a command grab to have a reasonable mixup from a jump-in.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I have mixed feelings about the counter system. It sucks going against someone like Greninja or Little Mac whose counter attack activates in a split second. And when they fail to counter, there is almost no recovery time. The slower characters such as Ike for example have to really time the attack perfectly. The counter takes a second to start up, and if he fails, his recovery time is a lot longer than the other counter recovery animations. And since every counter is proportional in terms of output damage vs input damage, I think that every counter animation should be made equal. It's stupid that when two people have the EXACT same move, one can execute it much faster and ultimately safer than another character.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

The only issue I have with them would be the # of active frames vs killing power.

Roy's Counter in Melee was perfect. It was only out for like 5-10 frames, and it's still weaker than some Smash 4 Counters.

One Counter killed me at ~50% after hitting it with a NAIR.

Having Counters that last for like 30 frames kinda nulls the point of a Counter. That's my only big issue.

 

[Conda]

I have mixed feelings about the counter system. It sucks going against someone like Greninja or Little Mac whose counter attack activates in a split second. And when they fail to counter, there is almost no recovery time. The slower characters such as Ike for example have to really time the attack perfectly. The counter takes a second to start up, and if he fails, his recovery time is a lot longer than the other counter recovery animations. And since every counter is proportional in terms of output damage vs input damage, I think that every counter animation should be made equal. It's stupid that when two people have the EXACT same move, one can execute it much faster and ultimately safer than another character.

Greninja has the worst counter I'm pretty sure, as the window is tiny. You can also dodge the attack I'm pretty sure - I've read a couple greninja guides pointing out that enemies can just block the incoming attack since it takes so long to come out.

I disagree about the 'all counters should be equal' sentiment. Ike is more power-forward than the other counter characters, so his counter is balanced to be more situational. The same way not all characters have similar fsmashes in power. It's a balancing act.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Greninja has the worst counter I'm pretty sure, as the window is tiny. You can also dodge the attack I'm pretty sure - I've read a couple greninja guides pointing out that enemies can just block the incoming attack since it takes so long to come out.

Yeah, his default counter's pretty bad. Fixed damage and a tiny activation window on a counter that's already only useful for blocking big, laggy moves. And Greninja isn't even intangible/invincible during the counterattack, unlike every other counter in the game including Double Team. So yes, you can also get your counter-attack stuffed by a jab. There's also the custom move Substitute Ambush, which — while the counterattack itself is even slower — has a longer (but later) counter window, deals a little more damage (though still fixed) with some major kill power, and takes out over half your shield if you block the counterattack. IMO this is the useful version of Substitute since it at least does a good job of countering the big, high-lag moves that default Substitute is only useful for anyway.

 

[Roy-Kun]

Counters in this game look both strong and pretty viable moves... and I don't like that. I'd wish if Counter doesn't make you exactly immune to damage with some characters. Ones like Little Mac and Shulk could avoid being damaged since they pretty much dodge the move, rather than parrying(?) and hitting back.

They seem to be pretty punishable though, more than Melee or Brawl?

 

[Minuy600]

They're okay to use. In Brawl, that is. I hope they aren't that overpowered in the Wii U edition.

 

[SatoshiM]

While I can understand people being annoyed at lots of counters, Shulk's is reasonable if only for the reason it's a large part of his character. But for real, just bait the counter and get a free grab. Someone spams counter to get out of combos? Do the first few hits then purposefully not follow up, when they counter grab and repeat. For a character like Mario and his uptilts, it's quite easy to punish people spamming counter.

I have nothing wrong with them. If you get killed because you overcharged a smashattack punish and the counter was too long, your fault. Learn the time windows. Or be safer and just grab.

 

[Ultimastrike]

While I can understand people being annoyed at lots of counters, Shulk's is reasonable if only for the reason it's a large part of his character. But for real, just bait the counter and get a free grab. Someone spams counter to get out of combos? Do the first few hits then purposefully not follow up, when they counter grab and repeat. For a character like Mario and his uptilts, it's quite easy to punish people spamming counter.

I have nothing wrong with them. If you get killed because you overcharged a smashattack punish and the counter was too long, your fault. Learn the time windows. Or be safer and just grab.

It's true, but that's just being blunt about it. Counters in general in Smash 4 apply damage and launch power relative to the attacker's attack, meaning that they can become pretty powerful in the right hands. That's not to say that they can't be overcome, though. Like Satoshi said above you can bait counters and change your timing, mixing up your gameplay so that you can have an upper hand. Imo, I think that the counters should've stayed the same like they were in Brawl, considering the fact that lingering frames can be stupid sometimes when it comes to baiting and countering a counter. But that's just my .02.

 

[MisterVisceral]

The worst isn't even counter spamming. It's not using counters at all through the entire match and then right near the end, completely ruin any momentum that was happening. And win. Because of a counter.

 

[Blueye]

The worst isn't even counter spamming. It's not using counters at all through the entire match and then right near the end, completely ruin any momentum that was happening. And win. Because of a counter.

Then i would just congratulate my opponent into making me think he would not use counter at all. Conditioning your opponent is a nice way to surprise them with a mixup.

Personally, i feel fine about the counters even though some are more 'annoying' than others. Perhaps its me being used to them since my friend mained Ike in Brawl and mains Shulk now. There are ample ways to play around them and punish them. It does make the game more defensive since counters deal with aggresion to a certain extend. But still then you have timing mixups, empty short hops, grabs and the shield to 'counter' the counter. As others have said, its high risk, high reward. Previously the reward wasn't as big and that was why you would not see counter in competitive play at all. It will be interesting to see if the move will be used in competitive now.

 

[B.A.M.]

Honestly its ******** how many people in here are complaining about counters. especially Shulks and little mac's. learn the damn timing; you literally get free fully charged smashes on these characters, characters who happen to be among the easiest to gimp in the game. even if u dont outright kill them they are in a garbage situation. Its a new game, if u havent learned the timing yet that can be somewhat understandable. If you are casual player I can understand how based on your skewed paradigms this would see OP.

The whole problem I have with this thread is that people are complaining about things with an easy solution IN THE COMPETITIVE DISCUSSION BOARDS. I honestly feel they should shut these whole boards down until later down the line, OR they're should be some kind of requirement ( such as amount of posts made or join date) before people can post in these boards at least for 4-5 months. These whole boards are littered with horrific threads such as these ( someone made a thread about if your double jump gets renewed after getting hit like in brawl, Protip: thats never happened in ANY smash game), because all these new players think that since they are attempting to be competitive that makes them competitive players and thus any questions they have must be of "great competitive importance."

Don't get me wrong; we all start somewhere. Thats how life goes; I cant expect people to step into competitive smash day 1 and know everything. thatd be silly. However, these are the competitive discussion boards. There needs to be a push for these threads to be in either the General Discussion or maybe even one solely for New to Competitive Play. As of right now, everything is being washed away in highly opinionated trash that has little to no bearing whatsoever to competitive play.

TL:DR: Threads like these need to be put in a new location. They are for new players who havent yet attempted to play this game in a truly competitive environment ( not "For Glory" fellas). This really needs to be dealt with, or else no one in these threads will actually get better because they are all listening to each others misinformation. This is the antithesis of what this entire board stands for.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

They are pretty easy to abuse

 

[MisterVisceral]

Honestly its ******** how many people in here are complaining about counters. especially Shulks and little mac's. learn the damn timing; you literally get free fully charged smashes on these characters, characters who happen to be among the easiest to gimp in the game. even if u dont outright kill them they are in a garbage situation. Its a new game, if u havent learned the timing yet that can be somewhat understandable. If you are casual player I can understand how based on your skewed paradigms this would see OP.

The whole problem I have with this thread is that people are complaining about things with an easy solution IN THE COMPETITIVE DISCUSSION BOARDS. I honestly feel they should shut these whole boards down until later down the line, OR they're should be some kind of requirement ( such as amount of posts made or join date) before people can post in these boards at least for 4-5 months. These whole boards are littered with horrific threads such as these ( someone made a thread about if your double jump gets renewed after getting hit like in brawl, Protip: thats never happened in ANY smash game), because all these new players think that since they are attempting to be competitive that makes them competitive players and thus any questions they have must be of "great competitive importance."

Don't get me wrong; we all start somewhere. Thats how life goes; I cant expect people to step into competitive smash day 1 and know everything. thatd be silly. However, these are the competitive discussion boards. There needs to be a push for these threads to be in either the General Discussion or maybe even one solely for New to Competitive Play. As of right now, everything is being washed away in highly opinionated trash that has little to no bearing whatsoever to competitive play.

TL:DR: Threads like these need to be put in a new location. They are for new players who havent yet attempted to play this game in a truly competitive environment ( not "For Glory" fellas). This really needs to be dealt with, or else no one in these threads will actually get better because they are all listening to each others misinformation. This is the antithesis of what this entire board stands for.

Excuse me, we're having a discussion on the discussion board. Maybe instead of pointing out how "********" everyone's "highly opinionated trash" is in these "horrific threads", point out how you learn that timing. If you're as highly competitive as your post is trying to come off, you should have more than enough solid contribution to offer the thread than "you're all ******** trash, leave discussions about new mechanics to actual competitors like myself." Like you said, a lot of people here are starting out somewhere. Everyone's learning the new components of the game, from vectoring to learning how to maneuver Smash 4's buffed counters.

I'm not saying you're wrong - I've figured out the past couple days how to get past counters a little more easily - just don't be a ****. When people are *****, nobody wins.

I've found that counters are easily punishable here with projectiles (more like brojectiles) and other ranged attacks. Grabs and such, like everyone's been saying.

My question is how to safely attack a heavy counterer with a character that doesn't have as much ranged capabilities. Captain Falcon and Meta Knight seem really susceptible to these attacks this time around. It's hard to guess whether someone is going to counter or use an actual move.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Excuse me, we're having a discussion on the discussion board. Maybe instead of pointing out how "********" everyone's "highly opinionated trash" is in these "horrific threads", point out how you learn that timing. If you're as highly competitive as your post is trying to come off, you should have more than enough solid contribution to offer the thread than "you're all ******** trash, leave discussions about new mechanics to actual competitors like myself." Like you said, a lot of people here are starting out somewhere. Everyone's learning the new components of the game, from vectoring to learning how to maneuver Smash 4's buffed counters.

I'm not saying you're wrong - I've figured out the past couple days how to get past counters a little more easily - just don't be a ****. When people are ****s, nobody wins.

I've found that counters are easily punishable here with projectiles (more like brojectiles) and other ranged attacks. Grabs and such, like everyone's been saying.

My question is how to safely attack a heavy counterer with a character that doesn't have as much ranged capabilities. Captain Falcon and Meta Knight seem really susceptible to these attacks this time around. It's hard to guess whether someone is going to counter or use an actual move.

I guess Villagers form of counter is Pocket? I have had my loid countered a lot my people XD

 

[B.A.M.]

Excuse me, we're having a discussion on the discussion board. Maybe instead of pointing out how "********" everyone's "highly opinionated trash" is in these "horrific threads", point out how you learn that timing. If you're as highly competitive as your post is trying to come off, you should have more than enough solid contribution to offer the thread than "you're all ******** trash, leave discussions about new mechanics to actual competitors like myself." Like you said, a lot of people here are starting out somewhere. Everyone's learning the new components of the game, from vectoring to learning how to maneuver Smash 4's buffed counters.

I'm not saying you're wrong - I've figured out the past couple days how to get past counters a little more easily - just don't be a ****. When people are ****s, nobody wins.

I've found that counters are easily punishable here with projectiles (more like brojectiles) and other ranged attacks. Grabs and such, like everyone's been saying.

My question is how to safely attack a heavy counterer with a character that doesn't have as much ranged capabilities. Captain Falcon and Meta Knight seem really susceptible to these attacks this time around. It's hard to guess whether someone is going to counter or use an actual move.

As I stated in my previous post, its not about people having questions. We all do. The point is these type of threads don't belong in the COMPETITIVE BOARDS; thats my point. This thread along with things like double jump questions are very basic general things. As such they should be placed in another place. The reason why I stated what I did is because quite frankly a myriad of people are watching and reading these threads thinking to themselves that the opinions people are posting here are fact. Its misinforming not just those who are trying to learn and are posting but those lurking as well because they see its the competitive boards.

Anyways if you have friends who play this game you can learn the timing through someone simply helping you see it in a online game. or you can put the CPU on and wait for it to perform the counter. The simplest way? pay attention to the flashing light on the character. Most games make character models flash or turn a light color in order to illustrate the invincibility or counter frames. Paying attention to that visual cue will help you.

Counters are solid if an opponent has good reactions however there are many ways to bait out counters. Also if you are doing something that should be a true combo or a DI trap and you are getting counter that means you were too slow. Learn to buffer your attacks ( inputting inputs within the buffer window of the previous action) to prevent wasting i frames and thus becoming faster in your attacks. Most importantly there are literally NO counters that last the length of a Smash. none. so if you are actually charging up a smash and they counter just continue charging it until they are vulnerable and let it go. so people talking about charging smashes and counters are lasting longer are completely lying. Just pay attention to the flashing; its an important visual cue and get your just punish. In fact you should ALWAYS be getting a great punish if they attempt counter than if they didnt. If you arent then you need to go into training mode and figure out the most guaranteed damage you can get in that scenario.

Lastly if someone is spamming counters and beating you, that simply means that person is better than you. Theres is no one polarizing move ( certainly not a counter) that beats someone on its own. That means you need to learn how to be aggressive properly. That also means you need to get better at fundamentals which are the most important things in any competitive play.Oh and for the guy talking about how someone saves a counter until a very end and beats u with counter, again that means that person is better than u. they conditioned you and you were completely oblivious until they pulled it out and u died. They read you and thus they rightly deserve the victory. This thread is most horrific because it propagates the #1 reason why casuals never get better; blaming their loss on a (very) beatable tactic. Instead of taking the time to invest as to how it works to beat it, people congregate together and complain about it how its "OP" getting reinforced and validated by other players losing to the same tactic. Its not conducive to getting better.

So I am not taking back my words; I already stated how all this is perfectly understandable. However, it is still a terrible thread especially where it is. This kind of congregation isnt helping anyone. Im telling you that as someone who actually wants to see other gain some footing in this game. These kinds of threads are not the way man.

 

[MisterVisceral]

This thread is most horrific because it propagates the #1 reason why casuals never get better; blaming their loss on a (very) beatable tactic. Instead of taking the time to invest as to how it works to beat it, people congregate together and complain about it how its "OP" getting reinforced and validated by other players losing to the same tactic. Its not conducive to getting better.

Alright I see what you're saying now. I'd just refrain from insulting people who are trying to get better or making blanket statements. That just makes people mad and not want to listen to you. At all.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I can't believe people are suggesting they get rid of counters completely or Nerf them to the point of uselessness.

Different characters need different options! If every character had the same options, it would just be boring dittos all the time. I do agree that there are a lot of counters that are basically the same but there are still way more characters that don't have counters.

Let's look at the more dominant characters in this stage of the meta.(not a tier list just observation) Of these only two have a counter! Explain to me objectively how counters are broken when the better characters don't have counters.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I can't believe people are suggesting they get rid of counters completely or Nerf them to the point of uselessness.

Different characters need different options! If every character had the same options, it would just be boring dittos all the time. I do agree that there are a lot of counters that are basically the same but there are still way more characters that don't have counters.

Let's look at the more dominant characters in this stage of the meta.(not a tier list just observation) Of these only one has a counter! Explain to me objectively how counters are broken when the better characters don't have counters.

Two of them have counters, Greninja and LIttle Mac. A nitpick but still.

 

[Saturnity]

The only problem I have with counters is that they change the pace of the game. They're really easy and fun to punish, but you can't go 420 sw4g mlg h.a.m. with your strings.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Two of them have counters, Greninja and LIttle Mac. A nitpick but still.

Oh yeah, fixed.

 

[ZombieBran]

Explain to me objectively how counters are broken when the better characters don't have counters.

That's an inherently flawed argument.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'm not a fan of counters. Especially for characters who are strong enough without them. It almost feels cheap in a way, how my opponent can simply use a move with no start-up time and that doesn't require accurate timing to complete, and then reflect my own damage back at me. In fact, it makes the game slow, tedious and boring. It's a very low risk high reward move.

The focus of this game should be on combos and other fast damaging techniques and not relying on your "get out of jail free" counter attack. In my opinion, it's pretty ridiculous how you can do so much damage with this move, making me feel like my opponent put in so little effort to do that damage.

It's not that it's difficult to deal with, it's just very tedious to deal with. Sure, I can usually read when my opponents will counter, or bait it out of them, but it's still not a very fun thing to play against. Also, the active frames are waaaay too long. I sometimes predict when my opponent will counter, he counters, and then I wait to attack, but then when I do attack it still counts as a successful counter.

I'm not sure you can call a move that leaves the user a sitting duck for nearly a whole second and a half if not triggered can be considered "low risk"...

If I go up against someone who's counter-spamming I just go grab-happy mode and done.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

That's an inherently flawed argument.

Yeah I realized my wording is a bit hypocritical after I wrote it.

The argument still stands. How can something be broken if the better characters don't have it?

 

[ZombieBran]

The argument still stands. How can something be broken if the better characters don't have it?

No, it was not the fact that two of who you perceived to be top tier have it. It's just the entire premise of the argument "not very many top tiers have it so it's not broken" is a fallacy.

You can give the best custom in the game (Counter Tree) to Villager but that alone does not make him top tier. Give the tree to another character and it may very well prove overpowered.

 

[Shaya]

I'm actually going to have to have to generally agree (with some) that a thread like this full of opinions/anecdotal evidence based off of Wifi/For Glory is very dangerous.

The counters aren't going anywhere. That isn't going to change.
We're already against threads that are about complaining for the sake of it. A majority of the posts here are just that, very few are truly helpful.
What type of thread would we prefer here with the same conversation topic? "How to deal with counters and all information about counters thread". Because arguing about whether counter is broken or not doesn't really mean anything. High level Smash is always about option coverage and reaction speed, and respecting counters is just going to be apart of the game in some degree, and it isn't going to be something that breaks the game wide open.

Counters have been historically weak in other games, they did not need to be. On a design level I consider Little Mac having counter hitboxes well in front of him to be silly and nonsensical (i.e. disjointed by a massive amount), makes swinging at where he could be moving to a liability, rather than being a reactive anti-aggressive punish on Macs part. But there is nothing I can do about that but play in a way to expect it; the move only hits horizontally, so if you're attacking from above it will whiff every time (as does Shulks).

Anyway with that, my apologies for not steering this into the light the moment I saw it, I should be more specifically anal about threads like these that are so often majority silly posts.