How Do You Feel About Counters?

[WootSnorlax]

I'm gonna have to see the frames before I make judgement about them. I need to know the start up on each of them and also how many active "counter" frames there are compared to the non "counter" frames. It's hard to judge how good counter is when we only have wireless play, whether online or local. Would prefer to see how well it can do in a local Wii U game setting.

There are 8(9)/48 characters with counters not counting the mii fighters: Marth, Lucina, Ike, Little Mac, Greninja, Lucario, Shulk, and Palutena (also maybe Peach). There are seriously too many counters in this game and it honestly seems like a lazy add in.

 

[KenMeister]

I'm gonna have to see the frames before I make judgement about them. I need to know the start up on each of them and also how many active "counter" frames there are compared to the non "counter" frames. It's hard to judge how good counter is when we only have wireless play, whether online or local. Would prefer to see how well it can do in a local Wii U game setting.

There are 8(9)/48 characters with counters not counting the mii fighters: Marth, Lucina, Ike, Little Mac, Greninja, Lucario, Shulk, and Palutena (also maybe Peach). There are seriously too many counters in this game and it honestly seems like a lazy add in.

I don't too much about the character (because I lacked interest in exploring Brawl), but doesn't Lucario have a counter too, or a move that functions similarily to one anyway?

 

[Terotrous]

You say the word "guess" as if this is a game of rock paper scissors. There are multiple ways to bait out counters and at high levels of play they will be punished every time for it.

It basically is rock paper scissors, and there's no consistent way to bait it out. If I jump towards my opponent, I can either stick out an aerial, or I can do nothing until I land and then choose from there. Counter beats the first option. Attacking beats the second option. If they do nothing or block, the situation is even afterwards. There's no solid way I can know which one they'll go for. I can suspect they have a certain tendency, but the good players will mix it up or even try to condition you to expect the wrong one.

Counters are a very strong defensive option specifically because they give you another choice that the attacker has to think about, and they can turn a potentially safe poke into a punish. There's no character who isn't improved by having a reliable counter. God forbid if that counter also hits back extremely hard.

If the numbers were truly as skewed as you suggest then consistent counter usage would be a legitimate strategy, which is clearly not the case. Try to enter a tournament with Shulk/Lucario and see how far you get off of being reliant on counter. It most likely won't end well.

Clearly you have to mix it up between the defensive options or they'll just keep going for grabs, but there are all kinds of tournament matches where a good guess with counter can decide the match.

Yeah, but there are so many easy ways to guess wrong, and no, it's not "1.5x the damage you'd take for guessing wrong". The incoming attack is not necessarily the same one you would eat if you guessed wrong. If they do nothing when you counter, you could easily eat a charged Smash Attack that may deal far more damage than the counterattack you get if you guess right.

True, vs an aerial it's closer to even since a countered aerial tends to hit about as hard as a smash. It's actually generally better to bet with it when you're both on the ground, as the attack you counter has a better chance of being a powerful attack.

 

[ryuu seika]

Lucario counters with Double Team.

Counters come out too fast and hit too big an angle around the character. Sword counters should not block the back of the user's head. Nor should counters work on the road of Mute City.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't too much about the character (because I lacked interest in exploring Brawl), but doesn't Lucario have a counter too, or a move that functions similarily to one anyway?

Double Team does in a way, operate like Counter, but how much damage it deals depends on how strong Lucario's aura is. Most other Counter moves have a damage multiplier that's determined by the strength of the attack that got blocked.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Lucario counters with Double Team.

Counters come out too fast and hit too big an angle around the character. Sword counters should not block the back of the user's head. Nor should counters work on the road of Mute City.

Wait, you can do that?

 

[ryuu seika]

Wait, you can do that?

It only saves you for about a second but yes. You can counter the stage itself.

 

[WootSnorlax]

I don't too much about the character (because I lacked interest in exploring Brawl), but doesn't Lucario have a counter too, or a move that functions similarily to one anyway?

Ye, he is in the list I put up.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lucario counters with Double Team.

Counters come out too fast and hit too big an angle around the character. Sword counters should not block the back of the user's head. Nor should counters work on the road of Mute City.

A whiffed Double team is so vulnerable you can take a plane to Africa, hang out with Simba, fly back and charge an F-smash.

 

[DarkDeity15]

A whiffed Double team is so vulnerable you can take a plane to Africa, hang out with Simba, fly back and charge an F-smash.

Gotta love those grossly overestimated jokes when it comes to laggy moves in Smash.

 

[_Magus_]

A whiffed Double team is so vulnerable you can take a plane to Africa, hang out with Simba, fly back and charge an F-smash.

Words cannot express my laughter right now.

 

[ryuu seika]

A whiffed Double team is so vulnerable you can take a plane to Africa, hang out with Simba, fly back and charge an F-smash.

Ok, sure, Double Team isn't the best of counters. Others come out much faster though, making the chances of whiffing them so tiny you'd need an electron microscope just to know they existed.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Ok, sure, Double Team isn't the best of counters. Others come out much faster though, making the chances of whiffing them so tiny you'd need an electron microscope just to know they existed.

Well, if you actually get the counter out then it's kind of hard to punish because it gives you a ****load of momentum. I just wish it did an instant break's worth of shield damage at high Aura. I think that'd make it pretty decent as far as counters go.

 

[ryuu seika]

Well, if you actually get the counter out then it's kind of hard to punish because it gives you a ****load of momentum. I just wish it did an instant break's worth of shield damage at high Aura. I think that'd make it pretty decent as far as counters go.

We don't need to be buffing counters. Nerfing them all to Double Team's level would be far better for balance than improving it would.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol balance of what.
Ike top tier nao.

 

[Random4811]

Honestly, I love counters. They make for a relatively easy punish option if you can read your opponent properly. Counterspam is a non issue. After the first two or three, if you dont start grabbing them or figuring out the timing, that is more so your fault. Everyone but Lucario can be grabbed out of their counter, so its not like they're OP. You can punish them pretty consistently, and Lucario doesnt have the crazy active frames Shulk or Mac do, so he can be punished pretty consistently despite not being grabbable.

 

[L9999]

On a somewhat related note, Palutena's default moveset has got to be the most boring in Smash history. Counter, teleport, reflect, and multi-hitting projectile. Zzzzzzzz

It doesn't stop there. She also has Pit's Up Special from Brawl, Killager's Up Smash, Zelda's Din Fire, a light that does nothing, Luigi's Side Special, a crappy version of Bowser Jr's Up Special and 2 of Shulk's Monado Arts,.

 

[Aguki90]

The counter of this game are OP as hell.
Except when they miss! That is my counter back to them.
I had no issues many character have counter. But, thanks to Olimar Fsmash attack and make my Pikmin the entire sacrifice in the opponent counter and he same time the counter didn't even touch me because I was a little far away.

Now let talk about reflector in this game...(Palutena have reflector and counter in is default, OMG...)

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

The counter of this game are OP as hell.
Except when they miss! That is my counter back to them.
I had no issues many character have counter. But, thanks to Olimar Fsmash attack and make my Pikmin the entire sacrifice in the opponent counter and he same time the counter didn't even touch me because I was a little far away.

Now let talk about reflector in this game...(Palutena have reflector and counter in is default, OMG...)

Reflectors are less of an issue than counters IMO. Unless they're the Cape. Or possibly the Guardian Orbitars, which also function as an aerial shield and push foes away on startup to make it harder for them to grab you. And the windbox behaves really hilariously if the opponent is right on top of the shields from the Orbitars and is airborne: They get held in the place in the air! Even the Orbitars are pretty "meh" though, since it takes so long to drop them and they get shattered instantly by any decently strong attack. Well, there's also Falco's Reflector, which is a pretty good poking tool in Smash 4.

 

[atomicblast360]

Too many of them, I don't think so many characters should have counters. I think they should mainly be for the Swords people, and I am glad Robin didn't get one.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The main annoyance I have with Counters in this game is that sometimes grabs just go right though them, as if they're invulnerable. I figured the point of grabbing vs. counters is that they're supposed to actually work on them at any time.

 

[SuperMii3D]

The main annoyance I have with Counters in this game is that sometimes grabs just go right though them, as if they're invulnerable. I figured the point of grabbing vs. counters is that they're supposed to actually work on them at any time.

Its paper rock scissor mate.
Attacks beat grabs
grabs beat counters
counters beat attacks

 

[InfiniteTripping]

If it wasn't for Shulk's counter I would probably never play as him. Best move ever.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Its paper rock scissor mate.
Attacks beat grabs
grabs beat counters
counters beat attacks

I don't mean "going through them" in that sense. They just completely whiff on counters sometimes, leading me to believe they have genuine invincibility frames for some reason. I figured I made that clear enough with the rest of my post.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I don't mean "going through them" in that sense. They just completely whiff on counters sometimes, leading me to believe they have genuine invincibility frames for some reason. I figured I made that clear enough with the rest of my post.

They might actually have them for an instant (and of course Double Team is immune to grabs for the entirety of its active frames). Doesn't really matter though: just grab again before the counter ends.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Counters do have invincibility. I thought this was common knowledge.

 

[Conda]

-delete please-

 

[Conda]

Honestly, I love counters. They make for a relatively easy punish option if you can read your opponent properly. Counterspam is a non issue. After the first two or three, if you dont start grabbing them or figuring out the timing, that is more so your fault. Everyone but Lucario can be grabbed out of their counter, so its not like they're OP. You can punish them pretty consistently, and Lucario doesnt have the crazy active frames Shulk or Mac do, so he can be punished pretty consistently despite not being grabbable.

All of this is thrown away when you start to talk about how strong counters are in the air, where you cannot counter them with grabs.

Countering in the air only gives the attacker 2 options - attack or don't attack. There's no 'grab' in the equation, unless you have an aerial command grab.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Depends on the aerial and counter. Sheiks u-air can catch Shulk due to the multi hit.

Shulks counter is best on the ground anyways. Not as a spam tool but to hard punish.

 

[ryuu seika]

The thing I find most annoying is that there is no safe angle of attack. The hitboxes are stupid tall and the moves will always strike towards where you are, even if you attacked through them from the other side.

Grabs are not the answer because they don't counter if I go for a grab. They only counter as I'm initiating an attack and when it's too late to cancel. Counters come out too fast.

 

[Signia]

Grabs are not the answer because they don't counter if I go for a grab. They only counter as I'm initiating an attack and when it's too late to cancel. Counters come out too fast.

Hmm

Sounds like you got read

 

[Conda]

Hmm

Sounds like you got read

Problem is only characters with counters can take advantage of this read. Those without cannot in the same way. This gives characters with counter a large strategic advantage.

Wasn't an issue before smash 4 because they were more balanced and sucked a bit to make them not too overpowering as an option. Not the case in smash 4, and they'll be an issue once we start using them more (not 'spamming' them, but using them the way we would grabs and such).

 

[MarthFanatique]

Has the mechanics (start up and cool down) of Peach's counter changed at all from Brawl to SSB4?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

The thing I find most annoying is that there is no safe angle of attack. The hitboxes are stupid tall and the moves will always strike towards where you are, even if you attacked through them from the other side.

Grabs are not the answer because they don't counter if I go for a grab. They only counter as I'm initiating an attack and when it's too late to cancel. Counters come out too fast.

Actually, many counters have blind spots below or above at the right angles. Shulk's in particular has a strange hitbox depending on how it's angled that can whiff occasionally. And there's Marth/Lucina's counter, which can miss if triggered by a disjointed attack from above or below. And Peach's counter with Toad is easy to dodge by attacking from above or below.

Special mention goes to the Mii Swordfighter's Blade Counter. It would be easy to hit safely by attacking from above or below... were it not for the very slight delay between the counter being triggered and the Swordfighter actually countering. During this delay, the Swordfighter is invincible just like during the counterattack itself, so you can't get past it just by using a multi-hit move. This delay lets stall-then-fall aerial attacks fall right into your counter, or rising UAirs rise into it. On the other hand, some characters can poke it safely by jabbing and immediately shielding, and it makes Greninja's DAir even safer on it than it is on other counters (barring Double Team, which pwns Greninja's DAir in a hilarious fashion because it never technically connects).

Here's another way to get past Lucario's Double Team in particular: Mii Brawler's Onslaught, Falcon's Raptor Boost, or possibly even Ike's Quick Draw. (Only actually tested with Onslaught, but as these other moves work in the same apparent fashion it might apply there as well.) If Lucario's counter frames from Double Team are active, the Onslaught dash passes straight through him without going into the attacking portion or triggering the counter.

 

[Signia]

Problem is only characters with counters can take advantage of this read. Those without cannot in the same way. This gives characters with counter a large strategic advantage.

Same goes for characters that have command grabs. Not everyone needs to have the same options available. The characters with strong counters aren't particularly strong anyway.

 

[Conda]

Same goes for characters that have command grabs. Not everyone needs to have the same options available. The characters with strong counters aren't particularly strong anyway.

I understand your point, but command grabs aren't really a new 'option'. Grabs counter shields, but there are no shields in the air, so aerial grabs don't really have a pronounced strength which is why they aren't overpowering.
You cannot shield in the air, thus aerial command grabs aren't really a different option compared to aerial attacks, as they can both only be avoided with aerial dodges.

The only benefit, from an options standpoint, is you can start a command grab as you begin to land, to grab a shielded grounded opponent. That is strong, but not overpowering and definitely not a completely different option.

Command grabs on the ground are effectively the same as normal grabs option-wise, with versatility which is what makes them useful tactically -- some command grabs have more range and such, but the option of grabbing a shielded opponent is still there for all characters. Grabbing someone in the air is no different (as an option) than attacking them in the air, as you cannot shield in the air to force grabs as the only option for your opponent.

Counters, however, offer another option. Counters in the air cannot be grabbed out of unless your opponent has a command grab. That is a very tiny weakness, and even then command grabs across the board have generally lackluster aerial utility and thus aren't ideal - thus you're mostly forcing your opponent to use that option instead of attack if they read your counter and still want to pursue you.

I understand your point, though, and it's a good one. But command grabs aren't really equatable to counters from an options-based standpoint.

 

[Random4811]

All of this is thrown away when you start to talk about how strong counters are in the air, where you cannot counter them with grabs.

Countering in the air only gives the attacker 2 options - attack or don't attack. There's no 'grab' in the equation, unless you have an aerial command grab.

Thats when you learn how long their counter lasts and punish them for trying to aerial counter. Oh, and if you're getting countered every time you do an aerial, mix up your strategy. You're too easy to read.

 

[Conda]

Thats when you learn how long their counter lasts and punish them for trying to aerial counter. Oh, and if you're getting countered every time you do an aerial, mix up your strategy. You're too easy to read.

Well of course - any option is not ironclad. Everything can be reacted to and read. That's not the point at all. The point is that having an additional option over your opponent - a real 'new' option, not a command grab - makes reading you more difficult if you utilize all of your options.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Well of course - any option is not ironclad. Everything can be reacted to and read. That's not the point at all. The point is that having an additional option over your opponent - a real 'new' option, not a command grab - makes reading you more difficult if you utilize all of your options.

A lot of command grabs really are a new option though, at least if they have movement attached to them. In Smash 4 especially, having a grab that you can activate from a distance and actually expect to land seems to be somewhat of a big deal given the globally shorter grab range.

 

[Conda]

A lot of command grabs really are a new option though, at least if they have movement attached to them. In Smash 4 especially, having a grab that you can activate from a distance and actually expect to land seems to be somewhat of a big deal given the globally shorter grab range.

What I mean is that command grabs counter shields still. They don't counter airdodges or rolls or superarmor from a mechanics perspective. They still simply counter shields. That's all I meant. I discussed the properties of command grabs and acknowledged them, but they are not a wholly new mechanical option. A smash attack with movement versus one without movement is still an attack. Same goes with a grab versus Ganondorf's side B.

If Ganondorf's side-b could catch people who are spot-dodging, then THAT would be a new mechanical 'option'. That's what I meant by countering is a new 'option' in the air - it cannot be grabbed out of.

On the ground, you can shield+grab/punish attacks, but you cannot do that in the air. But characters with a counter CAN. That's my point - it's a new option in the air specifically to deal with attacks. They aren't overpowered or unavoidable obviously, but they are a new tactical option.


If you get good with counter in the air, you basically have given yourself an aerial shield+attack punish for successful reads. That's a huge deal. You don't have to airdodge and try to attack in reaction anymore, as counter is a viable option instead now.

The weaknesses to well-performed Counters are:
(1) being grabbed instead of attacked, and
(2) being baited and punished after the counter window.

In the AIR, (1) is not a factor unless your opponent has a command grab, which makes counters a safer aerial option than on the ground as (2) is the only way a counter will fail.


I don't think counters are overpowered at all. They are new options, however, that should be utilized intelligently and with skill, the same as how we utilized spot-dodged when Melee came out. Counters are viable and powerful tools. Rolls, for some characters, have a similar 'oo, this old mechanic is strong now on this specific character and gives me more possibilities' effect.





edit: also keep in mind that some counters are less dependable in the air, which seems to clearly be intentional as counters are much more awesome in the air - since aerial options are more limited than grounded options. Those with weaker aerial counters that can whiff (usually the ones with movement or narrow hitboxes, or those than need to be aimed like Greninja's and Shulk's) are likely balanced this way as to not be 'too' powerful as an aerial option. I prefer the Fire Emblem counters, as for most aerial moves (low mobility moves in close proximity), they'll actually hit more often than not. And if they whiff, you still basically 'airdodged' and don't have much positional recovery to deal with.