How Do You Feel About Counters?

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I have a strong love/hate relationship with counter moves. Yeah they help me at times but they're sooo annoying at the same time. Hitstun is okay in this game but the increased knockback makes it hard to get true combos. Someone can mash Counter if you're a little too late on your follow up. Or if you're a little too aggressive they can throw a Counter out. It completely kills any kind of momentum.

With buffed recoveries, characters can Counter your gimp attempt and still recover. My biggest gripe with counter moves are the fact that they can be kill moves. I hate it when you THINK you have a good read or follow up then a counter comes out and kills you in return. I feel they should have a set knockback and should behave ONLY as a means to get someone off you. I can live with that.

Yeah I understand that I have to bait it and punish. I have no problem doing that but every once in a while I get caught sometimes lose a stock from one.

 

[Tacticulbacon]

Counters definitely feel OP in this game. A lot of them are capable of killing and some, especially Shulk's and Little Mac's, have so many active frames that you can spam counter and get away with it most of the time. This can be seen when fighting against CPUs, because they know what moves you input and spam counter accordingly.

If they had set knockback and damage, and couldn't be able to kill at low percentages then I wouldn't have a problem with counter,

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Counters definitely feel OP in this game. A lot of them are capable of killing and some, especially Shulk's and Little Mac's, have so many active frames that you can spam counter and get away with it most of the time. This can be seen when fighting against CPUs, because they know what moves you input and spam counter accordingly.

If they had set knockback and damage, and couldn't be able to kill at low percentages then I wouldn't have a problem with counter,

The ridiculous number of active frames just gives you longer to grab the sucker. (Unless it's Lucario; you can't grab through Double Team. It won't trigger the counter-attack, though.) That said, it is still annoying to try to time an FSmash to punish their counter, only to underestimate the number of active frames and get pwned (or to try to charge an FSmash and end up doing an FTilt instead and getting pwned). That's something I think I'll end up working out as I learn the game, though (or will simply disappear as soon as I get my hands on the Wii U version).

 

[Bunansa]

I know I feel like a complete pro with counters, and then have a Mac or Marth show up and destroy my combos/aggressiveness likewise. I feel like the counter moves should either be given as a major facet of the gameplay to all characters entirely or not at all. The fact that just a few have them is the major detriment to the meta it brings

 

[SwoodGrommet]

I'm not a fan of counters. Especially for characters who are strong enough without them. It almost feels cheap in a way, how my opponent can simply use a move with no start-up time and that doesn't require accurate timing to complete, and then reflect my own damage back at me. In fact, it makes the game slow, tedious and boring. It's a very low risk high reward move.

The focus of this game should be on combos and other fast damaging techniques and not relying on your "get out of jail free" counter attack. In my opinion, it's pretty ridiculous how you can do so much damage with this move, making me feel like my opponent put in so little effort to do that damage.

It's not that it's difficult to deal with, it's just very tedious to deal with. Sure, I can usually read when my opponents will counter, or bait it out of them, but it's still not a very fun thing to play against. Also, the active frames are waaaay too long. I sometimes predict when my opponent will counter, he counters, and then I wait to attack, but then when I do attack it still counts as a successful counter.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't like how many there are, but they're fine by me in terms of damage and such.

 

[Jaxas]

Most of them I have no issue with, however Little Mac and Shulk's counter windows are freaking HUGE. The number of time's I've purposefully over-charged my punish and then still been countered is annoying, that's for sure.

 

[oldkingcroz]

If you spam counter, then I'll just projectile camp... Honestly, that's not fun for anyone...
Greninja's, Ike's, and Marth's is a little tolerable, but Shulk's is pretty annoying.

 

[Terotrous]

I feel that the fact that counters amplify damage is totally stupid. That means that if you guess right, say, one third of the time, you're still likely coming out ahead.

Counters that deal static damage are fine.

 

[deepseadiva]

Yes counters need to be banned.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

I don't mind Greninja's counter since it at least gives you a little time to react. I think that's how more counters should work, something that just makes it a likely hit instead of a guaranteed one. I think it makes the mechanic more interesting for both players.

 

[CosmicFuzz]

I would prefer if they lost some power, say a x.7-8 multiplier but in exchange being able to actually hit the target. Counters work well if you hit them head on, but an aerial move makes counters buggy. Facing off against opponents who counter, they hit me about 60% of the time

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes counters need to be banned.

Oh you.

 

[Gawain]

I don't really have a problem with them, but some of them have ridiculous windows to counter in (Little Macs especially). It degenerates the gameplay, especially online if it's laggy. The Fire Emblem character's counters are all fine though.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I don't mind Greninja's counter since it at least gives you a little time to react. I think that's how more counters should work, something that just makes it a likely hit instead of a guaranteed one. I think it makes the mechanic more interesting for both players.

I haven't thought about that option. That's a good idea. A counter hit that comes out but can be blocked or dodged. It should be 100% safe on block or whiff tho. If not then it would lose the point of being a counter

 

[Kit Cal-N]

Spamming counter is the definition of scrub. Repeatedly getting owned by counter means you're not as good as you think you are.

 

[Terotrous]

Spamming counter is the definition of scrub. Repeatedly getting owned by counter means you're not as good as you think you are.

Not really, since the risk / reward is skewed on counters, it's a good strategy to bet with it often. If you can be right even half the time you're coming out way ahead.

The design of counters is really pretty bad. In most fighting games, counters basically just get you out of a situation, maybe with a little damage on top. They certainly aren't supposed to win the game for you.

 

[AvariceX]

Counters will never be a problem unless the damage/knockback numbers are just completely absurd (and frankly, they aren't). It's a high-risk high-reward option (some of them don't even have sufficient reward like Greninja and Lucario). Think about all the things your opponent can be doing at a given time - walking, running, jumping, shielding, grabbing, attacking, rolling/dodging - and realize that counters beat exactly one of those things. Out of all the options your opponent had you decided he would do one specific action and if you were right you should be rewarded (that's generally how fighting games work, only in this case the reward is automatic because of the commitment). If you are wrong (much more likely unless you had a good read or properly reacted to a telegraphed attack) then you are wide open for whatever punish your opponent has in mind.

Counters are in basically every fighting game and they are almost never good because the risk/reward is too unfavourable. This game skewing the reward a bit is actually a step in the right direction in my opinion. The only potential problem is if the risk of attacking someone with a counter in their arsenal becomes so great that it exacerbates the campy nature of the game (which we aren't even certain of yet).

 

[The Real Gamer]

More counter spam means more free grabs for Charizard, which means more offstage gimp opportunities. People playing against me quickly learn that spamming counter won't work.

Needless to say it hasn't been an issue at all. It's a high risk high reward move. Learn to capitalize off of those grabs.

 

[Terotrous]

More counter spam means more free grabs for Charizard, which means more offstage gimp opportunities. People playing against me quickly learn that spamming counter won't work.

Needless to say it hasn't been an issue at all. It's a high risk high reward move. Learn to capitalize off of those grabs.

It's really more like moderate risk huge reward. Time it wrong and eat a smash attack or grab. Time it right and respond with a double smash attack that kills at ludicrously low percents.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I fail to see how eating 20%+ off of a grab or even losing a stock at higher percentage from a smash attack equates to moderate risk.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think counters are fine as they are. Rewind to Melee and Brawl, and counters were basically never used because if you had a good enough read to use the counter, you also had a good enough read to do almost anything else, usually for more damage. They were simply inferior punish moves despite being completely designed around punishing.

Now that they've been buffed, they're a legit threat and must be respected. But at the same time, spamming them makes you predictable and they lose to grabs anyway.

 

[Thinkaman]

Counters don't just have to be a precise read on when an action happens. They also lose to all actions that are grabs, nothing, and even almost all other defensive actions. (Especially block.)

Counters are essentially an all-in powershield attempt.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

As a Shulk player. Everyone else's counter ain't ****. I just grab or bait. Now on the ground Shulks counter is dumb, forwarded vision killing ness off aa stray PK fire, all my LoLs.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

As a player coming from Melee, Marth players never used Counter. Plus Melee is a pretty offensive game and it's normal to be aggressive. I'm just not used to being countered and I'm not used to receiving such a hard punish for being aggressive. I'm completely fine with the ability to use counter moves. I play Little Mac and use them occasionally. But I still feel their damage output shouldn't be so great.

 

[Terotrous]

I fail to see how eating 20%+ off of a grab or even losing a stock at higher percentage from a smash attack equates to moderate risk.

Because getting grabbed or hit by a smash attack is a pretty common occurrence in a Smash battle, happening many times every game.

But getting an attack which does 40% damage or kills the opponent at 60%? Not so common.


It's really just simple math. Guess right and deal 1.5x the damage you'd take for guessing wrong. The reward is heavily skewed in your favour.

 

[CosmicFuzz]

I have yet to see a counter do 40% (the attack that's countered needs to do 27% aka Falcon/Warlock Punch levels) or kill at 60% unless you're VI'ing horribly.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Because getting grabbed or hit by a smash attack is a pretty common occurrence in a Smash battle, happening many times every game.

The main difference here is that you're giving your opponent a free punish. Miss a counter and you're a sitting duck.

But getting an attack which does 40% damage or kills the opponent at 60%? Not so common.

You're clearly doing something wrong if you consistently find yourself in this situation. Regardless this is too MU specific to be relevant.

It's really just simple math. Guess right and deal 1.5x the damage you'd take for guessing wrong. The reward is heavily skewed in your favour.

You say the word "guess" as if this is a game of rock paper scissors. There are multiple ways to bait out counters and at high levels of play they will be punished every time for it.

If the numbers were truly as skewed as you suggest then consistent counter usage would be a legitimate strategy, which is clearly not the case. Try to enter a tournament with Shulk/Lucario and see how far you get off of being reliant on counter. It most likely won't end well.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Because getting grabbed or hit by a smash attack is a pretty common occurrence in a Smash battle, happening many times every game.

But getting an attack which does 40% damage or kills the opponent at 60%? Not so common.


It's really just simple math. Guess right and deal 1.5x the damage you'd take for guessing wrong. The reward is heavily skewed in your favour.

Yeah, but there are so many easy ways to guess wrong, and no, it's not "1.5x the damage you'd take for guessing wrong". The incoming attack is not necessarily the same one you would eat if you guessed wrong. If they do nothing when you counter, you could easily eat a charged Smash Attack that may deal far more damage than the counterattack you get if you guess right.

 

[-RedX-]

Ike should have been the only character in the game with a Counter.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Ike should have been the only character in the game with a Counter.

What are you on?

And no, counters aren't that big of a deal in this game. Just find ways to bait them and punish them accordingly.

What I like to do is simply run/jump up to their faces as if I were going to try and hit them (if you're on the ground, run up spot dodge/roll back is a great strategy in case they don't plan on countering and if they're in the air, just get underneath them and charge an up smash if they're close enough because most characters can't hit you with counter at that angle anyways). Keep it up until they're forced to stop.

I've had plenty of luck with this tactic, but some people just don't learn and it makes matches much longer and way more of a chore than they should be. So really the only nerf I want to see with counter are the active frames with Little Mac and Shulk like a lot of you have said already.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Counter is a very tricky move to use right, especially against CPU players; this is especially true in Cruel Smash, since the CPU definitely knows when Counter will not work. Abuse it too much, and your adversary will catch on, and resort to grabbing or long range onslaughts.

 

[KenMeister]

I don't like counters, or at the way they handled them in the game anyway. One of my least favorite moments is when I force Mac in the air as Sheik, bait the counter, but underestimate the active frames RIGHT WHEN HE'S TOO CLOSE TO THE GROUND (Because of Mac's falling speed), and I still get punished. It's not just counters though, like someone said earlier, there's just way too many "get out of jail free" options in this game, and that includes combo breakers that characters can pull off mid combo regardless of hitstun. It just makes matches drag on longer than they need to be, and they're ********.

 

[-RedX-]

What are you on?

Crack and heroin.
It was a joke. I personally don't mind counters but Ike would have quite the niche if he was the only character with a killer counter.

 

[TechieWidget]

A lot of people in 1 vs 1 Glory Mode love to spam counter to a point where it gets annoying. It is powerful, but I don't think anything should change to counters for future patches or updates.

Instead of guessing when is a good time to attack them on the ground or when recovering onto a stage, I play it safe by only attacking them if they do a Smash attack or use Up-B, or they are attacking in the opposite direction.

I only use Counter when someone is using a Special move, or Smash attack on the ground.I messed up a couple of players who keep spamming counters by grabbing and throwing them off the stage when playing online.

It's fun to see some of them screw up, just because they are so used to being able to successfully counter other people's attacks.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I don't like counters, or at the way they handled them in the game anyway. One of my least favorite moments is when I force Mac in the air as Sheik, bait the counter, but underestimate the active frames RIGHT WHEN HE'S TOO CLOSE TO THE GROUND (Because of Mac's falling speed), and I still get punished. It's not just counters though, like someone said earlier, there's just way too many "get out of jail free" options in this game, and that includes combo breakers that characters can pull off mid combo regardless of hitstun. It just makes matches drag on longer than they need to be, and they're ********.

Another reason why item toss should be patched. *sigh* Still though. It's not nearly as effective at combo breaking as Megaman's rush cancel for example, and you need the item in your hand in order to perform it. Still hoping it stays. It makes Link alll the more fun to play as in Smash 4.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I have yet to see a counter do 40% (the attack that's countered needs to do 27% aka Falcon/Warlock Punch levels) or kill at 60% unless you're VI'ing horribly.

Shulk, Vision F-tilted. Buster/Smash.

 

[Dragoomba]

Gameplay wise, counters seem to be fine. They're like invincible shoryukens in fighting games. Either pressure too much and take the hit, or bait them correctly and perform a huge punish.

Design wise, they're a lazy cop-out. Counters are what you give a character when you're too lazy or uncreative to think of a unique special move. Like seriously, why do so many characters in this game have that as a special move?

On a somewhat related note, Palutena's default moveset has got to be the most boring in Smash history. Counter, teleport, reflect, and multi-hitting projectile. Zzzzzzzz

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Counter is a very tricky move to use right, especially against CPU players; this is especially true in Cruel Smash, since the CPU definitely knows when Counter will not work. Abuse it too much, and your adversary will catch on, and resort to grabbing or long range onslaughts.

Actually, CPU players (up to level 7, at least) in Smash 4 seem to be a lot nicer about actually making reads instead of just reacting to a Counter input frame 1, and I have seen CPUs fire a jab into an active counter. They're also a big fan of just making empty jumps after they run into your counter a few times, regardless of whether you just used it or not, and their punishes for a whiffed counter are no longer frame-perfect. Also, all those empty Down Smashes the CPUs do are for a reason: they're trying to anticipate a roll into them, and it sometimes even works on me as I notice that the CPU actually started their DSmash an instant before I started my roll. They sometimes even fire Forward Smashes completely backwards thinking that you'll roll behind them, and they actually sometimes start the FSmash an instant before I started my roll. They may actually be making frame-perfect punishes sometimes, but they also attempt legitimate reads (or maybe they just deliberately misfire to make it look like they're making reads instead of just reacting, and I'm stupid enough to walk into them).

It does annoy me that they'll react with a grab pretty much the instant you put up your shield, though (even if it's not quite frame-perfect).

 

[DarkDeity15]

Gameplay wise, counters seem to be fine. They're like invincible shoryukens in fighting games. Either pressure too much and take the hit, or bait them correctly and perform a huge punish.

Design wise, they're a lazy cop-out. Counters are what you give a character when you're too lazy or uncreative to think of a unique special move. Like seriously, why do so many characters in this game have that as a special move?

On a somewhat related note, Palutena's default moveset has got to be the most boring in Smash history. Counter, teleport, reflect, and multi-hitting projectile. Zzzzzzzz

As I've said in a different thread, it makes total sense for Shulk. Especially with him being able to predict the future with the Monado. The other characters I'm not so sure about.