How do I handle a Fox?

[grandmaster192]

I'm having trouble against a Fox. It's like I can't get into a aggressive position because Fox gets there first. Any tips?

 

[ckm]

could you be a little more specific? the description you gave is a little unclear to me.

 

[T-nuts]

press B. win. repeat against all characters.

 

[grandmaster192]

could you be a little more specific? the description you gave is a little unclear to me.

She keeps rushing me, and that's what I'm trying to do to her. The only thing is she is getting into an aggressive position much faster due to Fox's speed. Basicly I need tips on how to aggressive a Fox. She's so fast with Fox... It's really hard.

 

[ckm]

well "aggressive position" is fairly relative, IMO... basically that just means you are fighting in close range, im guessing. it doesnt really matter who ran towards who. actually, i think shes really doing your work for you in this situation. You dont have to worry about closing the distance while taking blaster damage. Unless you are getting caught in fox's jab or getting smashed in the face, you should have the edge there. Also, MK should have the reach advantage on fox, since you have a sword and she doesnt....keep yourself properly spaced and mix it up with dtilt, ftilt, and your smashes. Use your grabs, as they work well from close range as well. Block, dodge, all that good stuff. Dont be afraid to use your tornado, and dont be shy with the dsmash when she is at fairly low or very high percents. i dunno, its kinda hard to say more without seeing a video or something.

MK is a close-range killer. His super fast, minimal delay, combo-licious attacks should make fox want to run and shoot. Is there a specific attack that youre getting caught with, or a combo, or something? What attacks do you usually land that just arent working? The more specific you get the more helpful we can be.

 

[grandmaster192]

When I'm on the ground, I usually like to space my dtilt and ftilt, and I mix in throws as well. Most of my longer combos come from throws. I also short hop into my all of my air attacks as well with a mix of my up b. What's messing me up is I can't dictate the spacing because of Fox's speed. She's able block my tilts and attack out of her shield! It's making it so I keep getting hit by her jab and fsmash. The biggest problem is her SH dair... getting hit by it is 40% gone right there because she combos so well out of it. I can actually show you a vid of her Fox, but it's against a lame.

 

[ckm]

Fox's jab is a pain in the ***. This might sound noobish, but try using the tornado, but do it only on the ground. dont keep pressing b, and just do a quick pass in and out, or directly over her and keep going. Dont end it near her, especially in front of her, when she is at low percents. Keep her shield pressured, and she wont be as eager to block your tilts. You can use drill rush for shield pressure too, if you want but its a bit easier to punish. The tornado will go right through her jab, too. Also, once her shield is smaller, your dtilt will poke right through it. You can also use WOP type fairs for defensive tactics, to keep her at a better distance, and remember that you can Dsmash out of shield too.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

press B. win. repeat against all characters.

this is probably why your losing.

The matchup isn't hard at all. Just out space him and you win.

try not letting him upsmash you as well.

 

[grandmaster192]

Thanks, I really need to make use of the tornado. I can go an entire match without it sometimes. The problem is I don't know when to use it or what to do with. The drill seems better.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

Thanks, I really need to make use of the tornado. I can go an entire match without it sometimes. The problem is I don't know when to use it or what to do with. The drill seems better.

use tornado sparingly. You can spam it against scrubs and hope it works, which it may. but vs good players its bad, as is any other spamming technique. use it when they over b, if you time it right fox actually hits the tornado and instead of canceling out the tornado, gets sucked into it, which is extremely useful.

only use over b when your trying to mix things up. you can aim his shuttle loop down -->dtilt --> dthrow --> dash attack --> upsmash/nair/fair/utilt to start off dealing a solid amount of damage, if they are at like 0 or 10/15/20/25%

if they are any higher then that, it won't work as well, since

you can drill down -->dtilt --> dthrow --> dash attack --> dsmash/nair, when they are around like 50, to get them off the stage, then up b gimp them, or go off the stage with dairs

what I like to do, is at 45 after out spacing them for a bit is drill down -->dtilt --> dthrow --> dash attack --> nair, then depending on how they recover, I'll mach tornado or run off the stage and dair them during the IASA frames. it works all the time

the only thing I haven't really tested is the dsmash part of drill rush down -->dtilt --> dthrow --> dash attack --> dsmash

 

[Heroes_Never_Die]

@C@sh Mooney: Do you mean Drill Rush or Shuttle Loop? I'm a bit confused.

@grandmaster192: Lol @ being beaten by a girl (j/k, girls can be good).

Anyway, if you can't beat her offense with yours, just play defense instead. As she tries to approach you stop her with a Ftilt combo, Dtilt, or the Tornado and proceed from there. However, if you suck at playing defensively, then you're just gonna have to get better at offense I guess.

 

[T-nuts]

Thanks, I really need to make use of the tornado. I can go an entire match without it sometimes. The problem is I don't know when to use it or what to do with. The drill seems better.

oh. yea, the tornado is almost better than the drill in every way. if she uses a short hop aerial, which you block, but is spaced well so that you cant throw her, use the tornado and it will catch any attack she can do. also, i dont know why more metas dont use the tornado in the air, and i dont just mean after your uairs to try to get a ceiling kill. if you and your opponent are about to collide in the air, tornado is ridiculous. it will cancel out literally any move they attempt, and it lasts long enough to go through an air dodge. you can even use it off the edge. its also a godsend against shielding opponents because it will eat away a ton of their shield and probably shield stab, but if it doesnt, it still lasts long enough for you to move out of counterattaack range just as the move dies down. really, the only time NOT to use tornado is at a distance on the ground and approach with it, as a powerful smash will outprioritize a predictable tornado.

basically, use it like you would use a ridiculously good version of marths counter, that still punishes them even if they dont attack.

in my opinion, the tornado is the single best move to use against a really agressive opponent. actually, just make that the best move in the game overall.

im serious. if you dont use tornado, this is the single most important thing to apply to your game right now.

 

[ckm]

grandmaster, tell your friend that she makes herself like 500 times more attractive for being a girl that not only plays video games, but is actually good at them.

Just dont get carried away with the tornado. it is actually really good, but being predictable with any move, no matter how powerful, is a bad thing.

As far as the ceiling kos with the tornado, I have had trouble getting them. I attempt it quite a bit because I love doing it... but it seems that you need to catch them with the last bit of the tornado (after pressing B repeatedly) in order to get the knockback... and its hard to keep a good player in the tornado till the end.

Mooney had a good point about the tornado vs. fox illusion. Some foxes like to spam this move (btw, this works for falco and wolf too), and if you think they will do it, the tornado is a 100% counter. The best time to use this is if you are too far away to catch them when they are off the stage, but they are too far from the stage to grab the edge without using fox illusion. Now, if you are an aggressive edge guarder, as you should be as MK, they will probably think twice about sweetspotting the edge. Often this means they will try to land on the stage, which means they will fly right into your tornado, giving you some nice free damage.

 

[Zhamy]

Another thing you can try is properly spaced Ftilt/Fair, if you're getting rushed down. I prefer Ftilt because it's a much easier followup, although if you can space your Fairs correctly, you can keep Fox just at the edge of his Ftilt range, and you won't have to worry about eating a Dtilt from Fox since you're in the air.

Dtilt works well too, although if you really want to play offensively, you can cancel all your dashes into Dtilt, as it pokes under shields and pops Fox up nicely.

You WILL have to watch out for Usmash. Metaknight is light, and even if Usmash isn't the beast it was in Melee, you will still die early. Especially be careful of a dash canceled Usmash - again, use your tilts to keep Fox at bay.

On Tornado: What they said. It's good stuff.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

@C@sh Mooney: Do you mean Drill Rush or Shuttle Loop? I'm a bit confused.

@grandmaster192: Lol @ being beaten by a girl (j/k, girls can be good).

Anyway, if you can't beat her offense with yours, just play defense instead. As she tries to approach you stop her with a Ftilt combo, Dtilt, or the Tornado and proceed from there. However, if you suck at playing defensively, then you're just gonna have to get better at offense I guess.

Drill rush, my bad. I'll edit that in.

 

[T-nuts]

Just dont get carried away with the tornado. it is actually really good, but being predictable with any move, no matter how powerful, is a bad thing.

yea. i know i made tornado out to be godly, but that doesnt actually mean you can just press B and win like i said earlier. you have to skillfully press B to win. dont be predictable (that doesnt mean dont use it frequently though) and use it at the right times, because when you get punished for tornado, its usually by a VERY powerful attack.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

oh. yea, the tornado is almost better than the drill in every way. if she uses a short hop aerial, which you block, but is spaced well so that you cant throw her, use the tornado and it will catch any attack she can do. also, i dont know why more metas dont use the tornado in the air, and i dont just mean after your uairs to try to get a ceiling kill. if you and your opponent are about to collide in the air, tornado is ridiculous. it will cancel out literally any move they attempt, and it lasts long enough to go through an air dodge. you can even use it off the edge. its also a godsend against shielding opponents because it will eat away a ton of their shield and probably shield stab, but if it doesnt, it still lasts long enough for you to move out of counterattaack range just as the move dies down. really, the only time NOT to use tornado is at a distance on the ground and approach with it, as a powerful smash will outprioritize a predictable tornado.

basically, use it like you would use a ridiculously good version of marths counter, that still punishes them even if they dont attack.

in my opinion, the tornado is the single best move to use against a really agressive opponent. actually, just make that the best move in the game overall.

im serious. if you dont use tornado, this is the single most important thing to apply to your game right now.

This is why a large percent of MK users are bad.

 

[T-nuts]

This is why a large percent of MK users are bad.

why? i didnt tell him to spam it. you really dont think the tornado is good in the situations i presented?

the guy said he doesnt use tornado at all. im trying to help him incorporate it.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

theres very few situations where tornado should ever be used. its not good, but its not bad.

 

[Dojo]

Tornado can be a very good move when used right dude.... Spammed no. Forget about it.
But with strong priority, projectile cancelling (on alot of them), and if spaced right has 0 lag on the fall it's a good move to have in MK's arsenal.

I seriously dont understand how you think its a bad move.

 

[T-nuts]

I seriously dont understand how you think its a bad move.

me neither. i forgot about projectile cancelling, thats another good use for it.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

Tornado can be a very good move when used right dude.... Spammed no. Forget about it.
But with strong priority, projectile cancelling (on alot of them), and if spaced right has 0 lag on the fall it's a good move to have in MK's arsenal.

I seriously dont understand how you think its a bad move.

when used correctly, yes, it can be decent. But using it correctly means using it sparingly.

I seriously dont understand how you think its a bad move.

its not good, but its not bad.

Self explanatory.

 

[Dojo]

Mkay let me rephrase myself. I dont understand how you think its a bad move.

 

[Chaco]

Same arguement. Different thread. -sigh-

Exhibit A: Yes it is a good move, IF used sparingly.

Exhibit B: When spammed= Epic fail

Exhibit C: Has projectile cancelling

Exhibit D: Its your personal opinion on the move

 

[ckm]

mooney, i dont see how you can recommend the use of drill rush and then diss on the tornado all day. Both are useful in their own situations, but I think most ppl will agree that the tornado is LESS situational than the drill rush, making it actually more useful and more powerful. Alot of really good MK players use the tornado, and I have never seen a good mk player use drill rush as much (or even nearly as much) as mach tornado.

 

[ckm]

lets get this thread back on track:

to the TS, have you played her recently? if so, did our suggestions help at all?

 

[grandmaster192]

I play with her almost every day...

I find dsmashing to help a lot. I like to save that move, but it's really helping me get her off of me. Shield grabbing is also good since you can combo after throws. However, I still can't use the tornado right. I either get hit before I go into it, I get fmshashed out of it, or she just dairs it then combos into her utilt spam. I seriously don't like the tornado. Its doing more harm than help. It just doesn't fit my play style.

 

[T-nuts]

if youre getting fsmashed out of it, youre starting it too far away or too early (at least on the ground) and if youre getting hit before it starts, well youre starting it a TINY bit too late. i think youll get the hang of it, but maybe practicing against an opponent that gives you more time to think would help you more in that regard. glad to see our suggestions have helped at least somewhat.

 

[ctrlaltdestroy]

Yeah, the tornado from what ive seen, mostly depends on who is playing. its not an instant solution for everybody, some people it fits the way they play more than others. Personaly i use it more as a defencive/ disruptive move. like kinda just to try to hit them before they can hit with something bigger. and also i find it good if im getting bashed all over, to just use it as a retreat move, you can cover a big distance with a decent layer of protection. for a long time i didnt use it at all, then after that i started using it too much, but eventualy i figured out when to use it that fits my playing style. I think thats what you need to aim for grandmaster

 

[ctk495]

I actually played the same girl as grandmaster she is a member here by the way and has won a online tourney.I think the problem is that she gives no space whatsoever to be able to attack maybe you should improve your defence and then attack .

 

[grandmaster192]

I don't turtle Ctk. I'm a Metaknight player god dammit. People defend against me not the other way around. I'm going to play aggressively, end of story.

 

[ckm]

While i dont think you should change your gameplan (defensive vs fox will get you lasers in the face), you might want to work on your defense a bit. Obviously, spacing is the real issue here, but you probably know that. It sounds like your opponent is really good at spacing, and it might have little to do with her character. I want to play her... I dont get to play many good fox players these days. Not that im saying i would win... just would be fun to play a good fox. I still do think you could use the tornado to keep her off you, if you practice it a bit. You can control it, so you should be able to avoid dairs and fsmashes (dairs will only stop you if she hits you from directly above).

Have you used your ftilt and dtilt much when in close range with her? And theres no shame in using Dsmash for spacing... just try not to use it in middle percentages. Low will be ok cuz youll use plenty of other attacks after before she is in the danger zone, and high because it will ko her.

Also, hows your arial game? other than her upair and upsmash, you should be owning her in the air.

 

[grandmaster192]

You should play her, Ckm. Hop online with us one of these times. But yeah, I'm doing much better against her lately. I've improved my spacing a lot. I still don't know how to deal with someone being faster than me though. Marth is messing me up too.

My air game is what's keeping me competitive against her actually. I'm learning though... Usmash is a very good attack. ^_^

 

[ckm]

im always up for a fight! and i need practice in MK dittos too... none of my friends play mk and I dont do too well in dittos. feel free to add my friend code if you wanna play, and ill do the same.

 

[grandmaster192]

Yeah, Metaknight isn't very popular outside of tournaments, really. I'll add your code. Should be fun. I would like to see how someone else handles Metaknight.

 

[ckm]

Yeah, Metaknight isn't very popular outside of tournaments, really. I'll add your code. Should be fun. I would like to see how someone else handles Metaknight.

cool. hope there isnt too much lag...

 

[ctk495]

Hey ckm add me too I am granmaster's friend from another site.

 

[ckm]

Hey ckm add me too I am granmaster's friend from another site.

ok i will. im not on wfc at the moment but ill write down your fc.

 

[Killress]

I'm having trouble against a Fox. It's like I can't get into a aggressive position because Fox gets there first. Any tips?

My brother mains fox. Eugh. Quite annoying but..

1. Do NOT go on FD. He shall spam you.
2. I like to Fair->Dtilt for spacing.
3. Up throw->Uair juggle. (Seems to work ok.)
4. Grab often.
5.Gimp recovery with Fsmash and shuttleloop

 

[M@v]

Heh, how ironic. I main both MK and fox, so I know how they play. When I play fox, im almost always on the offensive, whether its dash attacking, illusion, or aerial approaches. With MK, in an MK vs fox, your best to lay back a little, and let him come to you, then use some of your high priority attacks(tornado, f-aerial, shuttleloop etc.) to stop him. Dont worry about if he trys blaster spamming to force you to him; just fly over it. The shuttle loop is so underrated IMO. You hit them on the way up, then land a glide attack on them close to the ground, and you can then go into ANY attack you want with virtually no lag. This only works if you do the glide attack very close to the ground, so be careful. Im pretty sure MKs air game is batter than foxs, so take it to the air. Watch out for shine though. Its quick and throw off your rhythm. Be aggresive when they shine stall(hover in the air by rapidly shining). I do it as fox when recovering to throw off edgeguarders timing, or to mess up aerials. Its godly effecient. Since MK can darn near fly around the whole stage, if he throws off your timing at first, just stay in the air and keep going at him.