How do I beat Doctor Mario?

[TLMarth]

I noticed that Dr. Mario beats Roy pretty badly... whenever I F-smash he's usually not there (my fault?), he has surprisingly little hitstun (I think so...) so- well obviously Roy can't combo anyways. It's hard to be too eager to do something because he can always pull out an aerial and punish you if you miss. Shielding is risky because he's so slippery that it's hard to grab him; he double jumps after a uair and usually passes behind you when he nairs. If you let up your shield he can quickly wavedash->Downsmash. In all shielding probably isn't a good idea.

I usually shield if I'm getting comboed, or if I want to block the pill. Usually he follows the pill with a fair, which is quite hard to avoid because it has a pretty big hitbox and the timing is surprising. I think shielding somehow isn't very effective against the fair, I'm not sure why.

Blocking the pill is hard because if you cancel it with a jab, he's probably right there waiting to fair you after you jab. If you retreat, the pill has quite a long life and can still annoy you. If you go over it, you have few options in the air...

Any advice? From your experience, or in theory?

 

[Samba]

Fighting a pill-happy doc (as in all of them) as Roy is... Frustrating at times. I find it better, first of all, to cancel the pills using side-B as apposed to jab, for a couple reasons. One, dash-dance to side-b. This alone will get you out of a lot of dangerous places where pills are concerned. Dash-dance away to give yourself some space, cancel the dash-dance with a reverse side-B to cancel the pill. This is usually fast enough to get you safely away from doc's punish reach. Two, side-B can cancel pills in the air, and can be wave-landed. Applications for the aforementioned technique are similar to the dash-dance side-B. Three, it's cooler to cancel a pill with side-B as apposed to jab because Roy does a kiai. And everyone knows yelling at someone when you slash their projectile out of the air with your sword is win.

You just need to have patience, remember you have a far superior ground game than he does. Your dash-dance is better, as is your reach in grabs. Bait and punish, and be smart about canceling those pills. Don't be afraid to give up a little bit a ground if it means it gets you out of being pill-faired.

P.S.
I approve of swordmasters with spears

 

[darkoblivion12]

I was playing a ton of docs at a tourney yesterday and I noticed there's a large hole you can exploit while dodging pills. After he full hop pills, after the pill bounces, you can run under him, which means he has 2 options, use his second jump, or use an aerial. Just grab if he aerials or full hop fair maybe if he jumps?

 

[TLMarth]

OK...
Dash dance + side B + be careful, (don't F-smash on a whim) maybe grab a bit more if he's shielding a lot
and look for the hole...

 

[Samba]

Try to stay under doc. if there are platforms, hit him onto them. And up throw, there's really not much doc can do to you from above. You can juggle him with u-airs and u-tilts, and u-air to f-smash is always great kill at mid-high %.
Being aggressive with the d-tilt is not a bad idea either, since it can be canceled by dash-dancing.

I was playing a ton of docs at a tourney yesterday and I noticed there's a large hole you can exploit while dodging pills. After he full hop pills, after the pill bounces, you can run under him, which means he has 2 options, use his second jump, or use an aerial.

Another thing the dash-dance would be great for.

 

[TLMarth]

OK. I played some more and these are my working analyses...

Pills:
You can't spend all day trying to block pills because he is just controlling you.

You need a lot of ground space to bother to block pills. You can't try to block them when Doctor Mario can get up close to you, because he can fair/grab you. This puts you at a disadvantage if
1. You are near the edge and he is blocking your way
2. You are shielding (because you can't move)

So near the edge, the best thing to do is not to shield (because he can just pill you all day and you have to wait for him to come close to be able to shield grab him, and all the time your shield is running out) but to just walk up to him and DED (again if he pills).

He pills either by full jump or by short hop. Full jump can be exploited, but I need to get under him really quickly and do something smart, because a lot of the time when I go under he's waiting for me with a fair- my response to the full jump pill should depend on my distance from him, how quickly I can get under the pill and under Doc. If it's short hop it's even more annoying to get away. He CAN follow you. Ugh.

Doc Attacking from above:

I guess I just need to perfect my u-air/utilt juggling techniques.
The thing is that usually you can block attacks with DED. But if he double jumps over it, I think it's a bad habit to try to block him off with the DED, because I need good timing and DED doesn't really cover above me that well. So I guess I should replace that with utilt/uair/nair.

Doc Downsmashing or Nairing your shield:

A lot of the time I try to shieldgrab these two moves but I get knocked back from the Downsmash too far: so I need to perfect the wavedash out of shield->punish (usually Fsmash doesn't work, so grab/dtilt) And the nair? I guess I can't do anything (Except maybe wavedash down -> fsmash, or if not fsmash, grab/dtilt/DED)

Doc rolling your fsmash

Well what can I do but just not fsmash? But yeah, I usually expect a downsmash after that. So... Counter? Or just get the hell away, or DED.

Doc's counter DED strategies

A lot of the time it's just crouchcancel-> Downsmash. Oh well. Just gotta make sure I'm well away from his downsmash range when I try to attack him (dtilt/DED), even when I don't think will be able to respond to my attack (because he might be able to)
Or if he rolls my DED, I could stop DEDing, then dashdance away just for that bit of space.

When should I dashdance?

I haven't been using Roy's dashdance the most effectively, I don't think.
I think dashdancing is most useful firstly to just get a distance from Doc where he can't easily pill you, but where he can't immediately downsmash you. Of course, he can always wavedash->downsmash, but whatever. Another thing is that if I have attacked Doc's shield, I can get away and respace my DED if I was too close to him.
Doc fairs your dashdance= always be ready to DED/ run away even more

Yeah. So... I'll read this before the next time I play the DOC

 

[harriettheguy]

I have extensive Doc practice with my Roy. This will be the last post you will have to read.

Fighting on stage:
1. All of Doc's annoying aerials can be crouch-canceled dsmashed. This is 25% of the matchup.
2. Fish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tByy6lrImX8#t=0m24s) for grabs. Assuming you are getting nothing out of upthrows, corner them with forward throw (walk 2 steps after the throw) and grab more. Docs can double jump out of forward throw and upthrow easily. The easiest thing to hit a squirming Doc mid air doc is flare blade. The reliable knockback corners them for more grabs.
3. Be aware that Doc can crouchcancel your paper sword, that is why I am a grab w****. You cannot outspace doc's dsmash with DED. DED makes you extend towards him.

POP QUIZ:
They're cornered. Should I belittle his ego with a fsmash?
Answer: Forward smash does not go through panic shield/panic roll. I would highly recommend grab.
However, consecutive forward smashes are theorized to have a higher probability of hitting, so swing away.

If Doc is pill camping, he is relinquishing territory. Walk in "terminator" style, and do not let him get to the middle of the stage. If he goes onto platforms, poke away, but don't expect to deal more than 6% at a time LOL

Edgeguards:
If they are trying to sweet spot, short hop a tipped flare blade to match their recovery. I've had success from experience even though Rockcrock tells me the aerial hitbox is the same as the standing hitbox, but it LOOKS like it is hitting below the edge.

If you call a doc tornado in their recovery, use your discretion to see if you can jump out and flare blade him or mindgame an edgehog. Usually, a doc tornado is a sign of him losing that stock.
Aerial flare blade does NOT hit pills--> if you call a recovery which involves doublejump->pill, space a fair or bair to hit the pill and doc simultaneously.

My matches against doc typically take around 5 minutes.

 

[darkoblivion12]

harriet, if you have a video of this i'd like to see it.

 

[Samba]

OK. I played some more and these are my working analyses...

Pills:
You can't spend all day trying to block pills because he is just controlling you.

You need a lot of ground space to bother to block pills. You can't try to block them when Doctor Mario can get up close to you, because he can fair/grab you. This puts you at a disadvantage if
1. You are near the edge and he is blocking your way
2. You are shielding (because you can't move)

So near the edge, the best thing to do is not to shield (because he can just pill you all day and you have to wait for him to come close to be able to shield grab him, and all the time your shield is running out) but to just walk up to him and DED (again if he pills).

He pills either by full jump or by short hop. Full jump can be exploited, but I need to get under him really quickly and do something smart, because a lot of the time when I go under he's waiting for me with a fair- my response to the full jump pill should depend on my distance from him, how quickly I can get under the pill and under Doc. If it's short hop it's even more annoying to get away. He CAN follow you. Ugh.

Doc Attacking from above:

I guess I just need to perfect my u-air/utilt juggling techniques.
The thing is that usually you can block attacks with DED. But if he double jumps over it, I think it's a bad habit to try to block him off with the DED, because I need good timing and DED doesn't really cover above me that well. So I guess I should replace that with utilt/uair/nair.

Doc Downsmashing or Nairing your shield:

A lot of the time I try to shieldgrab these two moves but I get knocked back from the Downsmash too far: so I need to perfect the wavedash out of shield->punish (usually Fsmash doesn't work, so grab/dtilt) And the nair? I guess I can't do anything (Except maybe wavedash down -> fsmash, or if not fsmash, grab/dtilt/DED)

Doc rolling your fsmash

Well what can I do but just not fsmash? But yeah, I usually expect a downsmash after that. So... Counter? Or just get the hell away, or DED.

Doc's counter DED strategies

A lot of the time it's just crouchcancel-> Downsmash. Oh well. Just gotta make sure I'm well away from his downsmash range when I try to attack him (dtilt/DED), even when I don't think will be able to respond to my attack (because he might be able to)
Or if he rolls my DED, I could stop DEDing, then dashdance away just for that bit of space.

When should I dashdance?

I haven't been using Roy's dashdance the most effectively, I don't think.
I think dashdancing is most useful firstly to just get a distance from Doc where he can't easily pill you, but where he can't immediately downsmash you. Of course, he can always wavedash->downsmash, but whatever. Another thing is that if I have attacked Doc's shield, I can get away and respace my DED if I was too close to him.
Doc fairs your dashdance= always be ready to DED/ run away even more

Yeah. So... I'll read this before the next time I play the DOC

A good wavedash OOS would solve many of your problems, in addition to everything TheGuy said hahah!!

 

[harriettheguy]

harriet, if you have a video of this i'd like to see it.

I dont handle the recording material...they're getting compiled by someone else so sozzz.
This should tide you over though, it's a similar pace to the Roy Doc matchup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j7NQUJZqT4&feature=related

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd ban stages that make his pill game hard to get around, platforms can help get around it a bit better.

Personal experience though.

 

[Ripple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy5qAEN42xI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEnACoi4idc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGjK8nvabUo

 

[crush]

When he goes for the pill into fair short hop forward and counter it will hit him most of the time and it'll force him to adapt if he wants to use the pills. And for killing him focus on spacing and getting grabs then d throw or f throw or b throw into tech chase forward smash. Then for edgeguarding when he tries to up b sweet spot the ledge turn away from him and counter and it will hit him literally everytime no joke. And when he rising down b's to recover just jump out and neutral b him