How competitively viable are low tiers in Smash 4?

[squashhime]

Hi guys! I'm mainly a Melee player, but I've been interested in getting into the competitive Smash 4 scene after casually playing it for a while. I've found I like Mewtwo's cool punish game, but he's pretty low-mid tier. Part of the issue I've had with low tiers in Melee is that it kinda stunts your growth. For example, playing Bowser makes it impossible for someone to work on their dash dancing and wavedashing. The other issue is how much effort you have to put it. Besides the top 8, Melee has viable characters like Pikachu and Yoshi, but they're so difficult to play at a high level that there's only one player who plays each of those. As much as I would like to be, I'm not innovative or determined enough to make a character like that work. That being said, should I go for Mewtwo or look for a high tier I enjoy playing in Smash 4?

 

[Eugene Wang]

You can totally win a regional with Ganondorf, Palutena, Samus, or one of the other low tiers if you're good enough. But step into a highly competitve area such as Tristate, or go to a national, and you'll forever be "the guy that changed the meta" if you somehow manage to get first place. Winning with a mid-tier will raise some eyebrows, but won't get you lasting fame unless you manage to do it consistently.

TL;DR: Low tiers are clearly inferior, but not garbage; mid-tiers are fairly good, but not the best.

Also, Mewtwo isn't low tier in Smash 4. He's lightweight, but he kills just as quickly as he gets killed.

 

[Zarxrax]

The meta is still evolving, and a lot of the so called low and mid tiers haven't been explored nearly as much as the higher tiers. Until recently, villager was considered mid tier. Then at Genesis 3, Ranai's villager was being talked about as possibly being able to take out Zero. I believe Zero said it ended up being the toughest fight of the tournament. The thing is, villager is a really solid player, but he isn't getting much rep in the USA from top players, so no one really knew what all he was capable of. A lot of the other mid and low tiers could be just like that. There are mewtwos out there winning locals and regionals. LoF Blue took a set off Nairo using Mewtwo.
I recently saw an article about ganondorf's placement on the tier list:http://smash4u.net/4br-tier-list-ganondorf-still-king-of-bottom-tier/
It's a pretty good read.

But in short, play who you want and who feels good to you. Unless you are trying to win the major tournaments, the tiers aren't THAT important. The cast is generally more balanced than melee was.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The is the most balanced smash game we've had.

While is much worse than ...

's much closer to then was to or was to .


If you want to play a lower tiered character, this is the game to do it.

 

[nerdbot]

I encourage you, if you want to play Smash 4, to just practice whatever character you want. Even really badly ranked characters like Jigglypuff have utility as backups on certain unfavorable matchups.

I'm convinced that--maybe not any time soon, but eventually--someone's going to do what Axe did for Pikachu in Melee and elevate some sleeper character. Maybe it can be you! There's just so much still unexplored in Smash 4.

 

[TheLSB]

As a and main, they are close to low tier but the more you play them the better the character is when you play them. I've been playing mac from release and when I attend tourneys i'm able to have a chance to beat a shiek main. If you like mewtwo play him you can make him viable

 

[squashhime]

Thanks guys! I'm convinced that Smash 4 is way more balanced than melee. Seeing Blue take a set off Nairo was amazing and makes me want to main Mewtwo so much. And if multiple people are getting results with a supposedly bottom tier character, there's no reason I couldn't with Mewtwo.

 

[Thinkaman]

The question is always: what low tier, viable relative to what benchmarks, and for what goal?

Going by official 4BR tier labels...

S:
S rank characters are expected to win nationals, but this is largely a function of the players standing behind them. IMO, we'd be equally surprised if someone beats Zero/Nairo/Dabuz regardless of it they played an S or A tier character.

A:
B:
S, A, and B characters do not surprise anyone when they win a major tournament. We are also not overtly surprised when any given regional event does not have a single player of a particular S/A/B tier character. Even Sheik not making top 8 at most regionals would barely register beyond an eyebrow raise. B tier characters are merely regarded as a little less likely to be able to run through a bracket.

C:
C tier characters could be regarded as equally formidable, but have never proven themselves on the national level. Below that, they are incredibly well-performing: Falcon has the 2nd highest aggregate results on Smashboards rankings, and Yoshi is sitting at #8. (Both are above ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu, Pikachu, and Sonic!)

D:
D tier characters would be be mildly surprising but not at all shocking to see in top 8 of a national, and they win regional events all the time. Lucario, the lowest D-tier character, won two massive tourneys in Japan and Mexico just this weekend, taking down Rain and Leo.

E:
E tier characters have also seen dominant regional performances, just in more isolation and at the hands of fewer players. There are many areas on this planet where a Greninja or DK winning an area tourney is not just unsurprising, but the status quo.

F:
F tier is where we start being surprised (but still not shocked!) to see win a regional event. However, these characters still have a history of performance at the hands of specific individuals, be it Tweek's Bowser Jr, Regi's G&W, or Wave's WFT. We are not remotely surprised to see those individuals in top 8 of a regional.

Also note that almost all of these characters received significant buffs over the last two patches, so they can honestly be regarded as candidates for true mid-tier positions.

G:
G tier is where we start getting a little shocked to see win a regional, and generally surprised to make top 8. However, a few special players we aren't surprised to see place with them: No one is surprised when Brood performs decently with Duck Hunt or when Sol does well with Little Mac, and no one will forget Nairo's use of Dr. Mario.

H:
I:
J:
H/I/J tier characters would surprise people to break into top 8 at a regional event, but can still perform very well at locals. I've personally won multiple competitive events with Ganondorf and Jigglypuff in Smash 4--and if I can do it, others sure as hell can.

----------

Let's compare the top and the bottom in terms of Smashboards aggregate rankings, excluding DLC and Miis as outliers:

2936
1506
1522
1419
1487


454
393
571
466
247

In other words, the worst characters place around 24% as often in tournaments as the best characters. This is without accounting for exceptional players that make up a disproportionate percentage of results, or that better characters tend to be significantly more popular in tournament usage to begin with.

They are very much on the radar; only Zelda comes close to slipping off.

----------

In Brawl, I won several events in my subregion and earned a little over $1,000 over 3 years playing Brawl Jigglypuff, who is a worse character than anyone in Smash 4. That's not much on the national scale, but I would speculate that this meets or exceeds the benchmark that most people would (or should) be considering, and shows that character tier is not the limiting reagent towards that goal.

If you genuinely aim to win a national, you would be wise to focus on a S/A/B tier character.

If your aim to win an entire regional, a C/D (and maybe E) tier character is also a completely viable choice, if appropriately handicapped.

If your aim is to place in the top 8-16 at regional events with some consistency (and top 64-128 nationally), E and F tier characters will also be sufficient. At this level, you will probably find that the advantage in matchup unfamiliarity to largely counter-balance the tier difference.

If you just want to win or place well at local tourneys, then any character is fine. Just be aware of the modest additional difficulty that G/H/I/J tier characters may bring to the table.

----------

In teams, note that almost all of this goes out the window, because the tier list looks significantly different and combination matchups have a big influence. The bottom 3 characters on the list (Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, and Zelda) are all disproportionately better in teams than singles.

My bottom line advice: Set realistic, near-term goals, and use whatever character you perform best with today to get there. It is exceedingly rare to rise to a level where your character is legitimately the main thing holding you back, and well, if you are in the situation, you are thriving as a player.

Burn that bridge when you get to it, but today, focus on today. Smash 4's balance is good enough to allow that without much hesitation.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm going to go ahead and copy and paste the explanation of this game that I gave on Knowyourmeme the other day:

Top- No need for a secondary, they have good enough matchups that they can win on their own. Unless a major patch changes them or something new is discovered, will likely stay as one of the best characters in the game (Unquestionably viable)

High- Likely to have at least one match up that requires a “pocket” (a secondary specifically meant for bad matchups for the character or the player). For example, Ness pretty much needs a pocket against Rosalina at high levels of play. (Viable)

Middle- Will likely need at least one secondary to deal with multiple bad match ups. Mileage with these characters vary and characters in this tier are typically the ones that move up and down the most over the course of the metagame (Debateably viable)

Low- Unless the player is exceptionally talented or there’s a big skill gap between players, a secondary is practically required. These characters typically have bad match ups against most of the top/high tiers or get largely shut down by multiple characters. (Not very viable)

Bottom- Matchup spreads are generally so bad that there isn’t much incentive to use these characters at the high level aside from the rare counterpick or to try to throw your opponent off from match up inexperience (Not viable)

TL;DR version: Can this character win a tournament by themselves at high levels of play? Top (yep)- High (probably) – Mid (Maybe) – Low (probably not) – Bottom (nope)

Compared to Melee and Brawl, however, low tier is significantly more useful and less hopeless in this game.

 

[Thinkaman]

If we are talking about any level of serious competitive play, so just the most basic-but-still-serious local events:

In Melee, I think you are wasting your time if you try to invest competitively (at any level) in anyone as a main other than the top 11 of Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Peach, Falcon, Pikachu, Samus, and Luigi--and the latter 5 should be taken only with the understanding that you are operating at a distinct disadvantage.

For comparable investment in Brawl, you should probably stick to the upper 19, with the understanding that the bottom 6-8 of those have similar big flaws. Additionally, you need to understand the Meta Knight matchup very well with whatever character you play.

In Smash 4, there are (imo) 48 characters that will be fine for 99.8% of players. Over time, discoveries might arise that reduce this number slightly, but it's still a wide field.

 

[Yellowpikmin476]

In teams, note that almost all of this goes out the window, because the tier list looks significantly different and combination matchups have a big influence. The bottom 3 characters on the list (Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, and Zelda) are all disproportionately better in teams than singles.

This is very true too. And, most likely not on accident. Considering the intentions the team has when making Smash games, it comes as no surprise that certain characters would be purposefully balanced to be better in group matches than one on one, since the game is made to be played in many different ways. A lot of top tier characters I also notice aren't nearly as good in team/FFA due to how they work. Like ZSS for example isn't as good in these circumstances since the techniques she does are far more likely to be interrupted by other players, and she can have a harder time getting a kill because of this.

 

[nerdbot]

I mean, when you look at the top players, Zero's the only player who sticks solely to the highest-ranked characters. Nairo still regularly uses his Doc and has been known to pull out Robin (and honestly I think Nairo could ruin lives with just about any character in the game), Dabuz has used Olimar in the past. I don't feel like low tier rankings denote outright uselessness.

I feel a lot of folks read tier rankings in a very binary "good or bad" fashion without considering even simple things such as the sheer volume of characters in this game meaning that even pretty good characters will end up looking pretty low down the list.

 

[Grandma Wilkins]

There is no doubt in my mind that in this game, every character is viable at least as a secondary.
For reference, watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHhCQsOgIag&app=desktop
Here, a Toon Link player pulls out Jigglypuff after losing his first game. A character considered by many to be the worst in the game cleans up the rest of the set. If Jiggs plays her croutch game well, she can get an advantage over many great characters.
This is not Melee or Brawl. Most characters can be mained without much trouble. So pick the character you like playing. If that character has some bad matchups, find a secondary for those matchups that you also enjoy playing.

Play whoever you want, but play them well. But no Johns

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'm going to go ahead and copy and paste the explanation of this game that I gave on Knowyourmeme the other day:

Top- No need for a secondary, they have good enough matchups that they can win on their own. Unless a major patch changes them or something new is discovered, will likely stay as one of the best characters in the game (Unquestionably viable)

High- Likely to have at least one match up that requires a “pocket” (a secondary specifically meant for bad matchups for the character or the player). For example, Ness pretty much needs a pocket against Rosalina at high levels of play. (Viable)

Middle- Will likely need at least one secondary to deal with multiple bad match ups. Mileage with these characters vary and characters in this tier are typically the ones that move up and down the most over the course of the metagame (Debateably viable)

Low- Unless the player is exceptionally talented or there’s a big skill gap between players, a secondary is practically required. These characters typically have bad match ups against most of the top/high tiers or get largely shut down by multiple characters. (Not very viable)

Bottom- Matchup spreads are generally so bad that there isn’t much incentive to use these characters at the high level aside from the rare counterpick or to try to throw your opponent off from match up inexperience (Not viable)

TL;DR version: Can this character win a tournament by themselves at high levels of play? Top (yep)- High (probably) – Mid (Maybe) – Low (probably not) – Bottom (nope)

Compared to Melee and Brawl, however, low tier is significantly more useful and less hopeless in this game.

How are you defining "viable"? We've seen Johnny Westside fsu with Samus and do very well in a stacked region. Is that "unviable"? And pretty much any character can win a small local tournament in a weak region. Does that count as viable?

If we are talking about any level of serious competitive play, so just the most basic-but-still-serious local events:

In Melee, I think you are wasting your time if you try to invest competitively (at any level) in anyone as a main other than the top 11 of Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Peach, Falcon, Pikachu, Samus, and Luigi--and the latter 5 should be taken only with the understanding that you are operating at a distinct disadvantage.

For comparable investment in Brawl, you should probably stick to the upper 19, with the understanding that the bottom 6-8 of those have similar big flaws. Additionally, you need to understand the Meta Knight matchup very well with whatever character you play.

In Smash 4, there are (imo) 48 characters that will be fine for 99.8% of players. Over time, discoveries might arise that reduce this number slightly, but it's still a wide field.

Luigi is 13th in Melee, not 11th. Dr. Mario is 11th and Yoshi is 12th.

 

[Fatmanonice]

How are you defining "viable"? We've seen Johnny Westside fsu with Samus and do very well in a stacked region. Is that "unviable"? And pretty much any character can win a small local tournament in a weak region. Does that count as viable?

.

It's in my post that you just quoted. "Can this character win a tournament by themselves at high levels of play? Top (yep)- High (probably) – Mid (Maybe) – Low (probably not) – Bottom (nope)"



Swamp Sensei
he is the most balanced smash game we've had.
"While is much worse than ...

's much closer to then was to or was to .


If you want to play a lower tiered character, this is the game to do it."

This definitely has to be emphasized because it rings so true for this game. Even in the low and bottom tiers, these characters have interesting niches.

have been shown to be reliable pockets at the very least while have very interesting niches in this game. There's not very many characters in this game that you can just roll your eyes at and almost entirely dismiss like in Melee and Brawl which is pretty amazing because when you consider anything below high tier in the past two games were largely deemed niche or gimmick or competitively useless.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, what's really cool about this game is that no one is useless.

Pretty much any character can do work due to this game being so reliant on fundamentals, which is more on the player than the character.

 

[1FC0]

The is the most balanced smash game we've had.

While is much worse than ...

's much closer to then was to or was to .


If you want to play a lower tiered character, this is the game to do it.

You forgot what might be the most balanced of the first 3 Smashes, how close is to ?

 

[Goesasu]

I would say this level of viable:

https://youtu.be/YeWFQE5FyY8

Nairos zelda vs mr.r sheik. Its dated but its worth it, also should be noted that by that time zelda hadnt been buffed and sheik wasnt nerfed yet.

 

[Hippieslayer]

F tier is where we start being surprised (but still not shocked!) to see win a regional event. However, these characters still have a history of performance at the hands of specific individuals, be it Tweek's Bowser Jr, Regi's G&W, or Wave's WFT. We are not remotely surprised to see those individuals in top 8 of a regional.

Also note that almost all of these characters received significant buffs over the last two patches, so they can honestly be regarded as candidates for true mid-tier positions.

.

There's Songun as well and a number of decent GnW players I can't recall. The character obviously does not belong in low tier, its just underrated in North America. Don't really care that he's got so little representation. If you watch Songun and Regi you can see its a solid character. Pikachu doesn't have much representation either, he just happens to have his representation in America, hence he gets to go high as **** on the list. If Nakat and Esam were japanese where would pikachu be?

Oh well, officially GnW is still low tier so I guess low tiers are viable!

 

[TyDye]

Quoting myself from another thread:

For anyone that is upset about the tier list or thinking about choosing a top tier as their new main. Smash tier list are simply a suggestion (not proven fact) of which characters have the most potential to place in tournaments based on the following criteria:

The position/rank of a character in a tier list is decided by analyzing carefully many factors, such as:

• The character's individual attributes (weight, falling speed, movement, damage output, recovery, etc.), moveset, pros & cons and strategies.
• The character's matchup against other characters and how well they perform.
  • Counters are taken in consideration, meaning how much advantage or disadvantage a character has against another. However they are not a deciding factor for the ranking.
• The character's perfomancee on specific stages.
• The character's overall performance on Tournaments.

Source: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list

Mainly the last bullet "The character's overall performance on Tournaments."

Take for example Melee's ever changing tier list.

1- Jigglypuff was bottom tier until Mango. (Although I'm a fan of Hungrybox; Mango was the original Puff.)

2- Ice Climbers were low tier until Chu Dat and Wobbles.

3- Pikachu was mid tier until Axe.

4- Most recently Yoshi was low mid tier until Amsa beat M2K.


And most noteworthy Pichu is only above Bowser and Kirby because pro players use her for tournament disrespect.

Her trophies even state that she is "Best suited for handicapped matches." and "Top of the class (roster) in weakness"

Source: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Pichu_(SSBM)

Point is that every one of these tier list changes were based solely on tournament results. If say a Game & Watch main were to win a few of the next major tourneys he would climb the ranks and this list will look drastically different.

Don't get me wrong. There is a reason players are wining tournaments with top tier characters. They are characters that are easier to WIN with. However pretty much anything after "D" tier is opinion.

You should play whichever character is comfortable / come most naturally to you. This will allow you to learn and master that character much easier than a top tier character that you find awkward to play. It's also not a bad idea to have an alternate or two for the poor match ups that your main may have. Choose them in the same way.

Tier list are more so a suggestion than anything, by no means are they fact. Many times low tier characters are just underplayed in tournament. Nothing more.

One final note. Along with playing your most natural characters. Make sure that you have fun playing them. If your not having fun, there is little to no point in playing the game.

 

[Zeriora]

As a and main, they are close to low tier but the more you play them the better the character is when you play them. I've been playing mac from release and when I attend tourneys i'm able to have a chance to beat a shiek main. If you like mewtwo play him you can make him viable

Where THE HELL did you find that avatar from... I literally created it, found it as your avatar... LOL

 

[banana29]

Thinkaman I'm confused, I thought the smash 4 character ranking are just how many times a character has been used? Or is it how many times a character has gotten into a top placing spot?

 

[TyDye]

banana29 The criteria for teir list is in the quoted part of my previous post.

 

[banana29]

banana29 The criteria for teir list is in the quoted part of my previous post.

I was a talking about this: http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/teams

 

[TyDye]

I was a talking about this: http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/teams

Oh sorry. I have no idea how that works.

 

[ArikadoSD]

The meta is still evolving, and a lot of the so called low and mid tiers haven't been explored nearly as much as the higher tiers. Until recently, villager was considered mid tier. Then at Genesis 3, Ranai's villager was being talked about as possibly being able to take out Zero. I believe Zero said it ended up being the toughest fight of the tournament. The thing is, villager is a really solid player, but he isn't getting much rep in the USA from top players, so no one really knew what all he was capable of. A lot of the other mid and low tiers could be just like that. There are mewtwos out there winning locals and regionals. LoF Blue took a set off Nairo using Mewtwo.
I recently saw an article about ganondorf's placement on the tier list:http://smash4u.net/4br-tier-list-ganondorf-still-king-of-bottom-tier/
It's a pretty good read.

But in short, play who you want and who feels good to you. Unless you are trying to win the major tournaments, the tiers aren't THAT important. The cast is generally more balanced than melee was.

Unless you've been limiting your lurking or whatever then villager was never considered mid tier. He was always considered at the very worst among the top 15-20 but majority of the people I know and a lot of pro smashers had villager pretty high. Everyone knew villager was good. Everyone knew Ranai was amazing, just no one knew what Ranai would do if he came to an american national.

 

[Machii]

There are mewtwos out there winning locals and regionals. LoF Blue took a set off Nairo using Mewtwo.

Eww. He uses confusion offensively.

 

[nedskii-]

But I have so much mega man knowledge and practice so hard, but still do not get results. i'm beginning to think he isnt worth the time and effort. Someone save me from maining a top tier.

 

[2fast]

But I have so much mega man knowledge and practice so hard, but still do not get results. i'm beginning to think he isnt worth the time and effort. Someone save me from maining a top tier.

If you love playing mega man because he is a ton of fun to play and you're more worried about pushing his meta rather than winning with him atm then I say stick with him.

If you're questioning using him everytime you lose and don't have faith in making comebacks when you're behind than it might be time for a character switch.

 

[Blu_Tri0]

In sm4sh most characters are generally balanced. I dont know your skill level in melee so if you're generally bad, go for a low teir like DK who can teach you the basics of the sm4sh techniques, strings, and combo's. Though in melee you will learn this (personally i think combos are a bit easir to pull off in sm4sh) so you may want to just start with Mewtoo and see if you like someone else. I main Link (and no i dont do fg spam) then i went on to trying more characters like ness and shiek. Link is my main because i like the way he plays though due to him being mid teir I picked up a higher teir to handle battles that i need a better character. Overall its fine to main a low tier but you may want a high tier on the side and visa virs

 

[Billwally]

A lot of the low tiers are considered low-tiers because they're underused most of time

 

[gmBottles]

Part of the issue I've had with low tiers in Melee is that it kinda stunts your growth. For example, playing Bowser makes it impossible for someone to work on their dash dancing and wavedashing.

I bit off topic, but Bowser actually needs good DD and wavedashing to work, it's just different than most characters. That said, he's still awful

From my experience, low tiers in Smash 4 aren't nearly as bad as low tiers in Melee, but they are still low tier for a reason. For example, if you play Palutena, you are going to have a much harder time succeeding than a ZSS player of the same skill level. The difference from Melee, though, is that it isn't impossible by any means, while winning a major with a character like Ness or Bowser in Melee is absolutely impossible. Low tiers in Smash 4 are still bad, they just have way less limitations than Melee low tiers, and I think that is because the game is much more mental, while Melee requires more execution that some characters just can't do.

In your case with Mewtwo, you would likely be able to succeed just as much as anyone else, an perfect example being Abadongo.