How Can We Save Brawl?

[Tocaraca2]

I sought a thread to post this in, and now I have found one. Brawl solutions that may or may not work. Warning- some of these theories are very out there, so read with caution. I'll drop a spoiler over it so people can pass it by, cuz it's a lot.

Spoiler: click to reveal moveset

You see, the problem with Brawl is that it was made with four players in mind. Attacks are best for hitting multiple players at once or focusing on racking up damage against one. To avoid a lockdown, you'd need a buddy can bust you out. That's why I think to save Brawl, it should be played in exclusively doubles. That also could potentially break a lot of the stalling patterns seen in the game.

Speaking of stalling, I think the timer should be removed to completely obliterate the purpose of stalling. The reason Brawl died in the first place is that it was a game of hit and run, since it was a lot easier to run than hit, and then wait for time to run out.

Also, I think that by removing Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, Olimar, and Diddy Kong, most other characters become much more capable and actually a lot more balanced. I played mostly mid tier characters in Brawl and they're a lot of fun, despite not being designed for high-level, technical play.

And just look at the amount of stages that could be potentially legalized in a game like this. Battlefield, Final D, Yoshi's Island (new), Smashville, Halberd, Delfino, Castle Siege, Lylat, Frigate Orpheon- heck, even Brinstar and Jungle Japes have a chance, they're 3DS counterpicks at my local and they're pretty popular, especially in doubles. You might even be able to allow walk-offs due to the nature of the gameplay style.

Using this ruleset, Brawl can be the "easy to learn, hard to master" game of patience, accuracy, team chemistry, and doubles strategy rather than a game of intense rushdown combo ability and technical prowess. What do you think?

I think that removing Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, Olimar, and Diddy Kong would be a terrible idea; just look at past comments on this thread, I'm not explaining myself because I don't know as much as them.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Maybe because they don't like Sm4sh's game engine or other features? For example, I hated the look of Smash-4 when I first saw it, my first thought was that "NO THEY RUINED THE SOUND EFFECTS! FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU". I actually like Pit (well technically Dark Pit) in Sm4sh now, but not as much as in Brawl.

I doubt that's the problem, encase you haven't noticed (and I have) all anyone has whined and ranted about is how Brawl is "slow" "unbalanced" (whatever that means). The majority that even respond or show up are 98% Smash-4 players (wish it wasn't so but is) and all they've done is whine and demand Brawl become like Smash-4 (bland, too simple of a game, patch this and that, and so forth).

The only people who are actually adding some creative thinking or trying to understand this "hype" as in "dress to impress" which means look your best with your character or the overall structure of the Smash game. Me, you, Feelicks (in the begging then was blocked), Sijon, new user joining the thread named Oz, and a few more (like one or two other users). Not very much users (not surprised) and the ideas have already been set out already.

"Ban MetaKnight, Ice Climbers, Olimar and Diddy kong" "Metaknight is the reason why Brawl is like this" (false but whatever). "Brawl won't make it" "Brawl sucks" "Brawl won't be saved" (what else) "Brawl is slow" "Brawl won't make it/die" (whatever that means).

Pretty sure I covered the whole enigma of this thread towards "Saving" Brawl the video-game. I wonder what other creative and impressive responses will reappear in a few more comments (oh boy can't wait sigh).

 

[ZZSamantha]

I thought competitive Brawl was pretty cool, and I'm a "Melee elitist". I hope it doesn't die.

 

[Uchihadark7]

Brawl won't die out, but it certainly won't get any bigger. No game ever really dies out. People still play MUGEN and Runescape.

 

[ZZSamantha]

Brawl won't die out, but it certainly won't get any bigger. No game ever really dies out. People still play MUGEN and Runescape.

He makes a good point. We probably won't be seeing it at any majors though.

 

[Uchihadark7]

He makes a good point. We probably won't be seeing it at any majors though.

Yeah probably not. I mean the only reason that Smash 64 is still at majors is because of Isai and how popular and respected he is. That game's audience hasn't grown at all.

 

[ZZSamantha]

Yeah probably not. I mean the only reason that Smash 64 is still at majors is because of Isai and how popular and respected he is. That game's audience hasn't grown at all.

Yeah. I wish it would grow, cause 64 is way more fun than people give it credit for.

 

[Tocaraca2]

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 It seems to me like you have blocked many people on this thread just because they were arguing with you, which is a stupid move. Everyone on here who hasn't said 'Brawl sucks' has good points and wants to save this game. I like Smash-4, but I do agree, it is bland. Down Throws, Up Airs, Up Tilts, and Up Specials galore, with a bit of Side Tilt and Forward Air spam from Sheik (lame), with only a few creative characters, such as Megaman, Robin, Shulk, and Ryu. Cloud looks interesting as well, but man, nearly every single character in Sm4sh have very similar playstyles. Heck, even Zelda has Up Tilt chains.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 It seems to me like you have blocked many people on this thread just because they were arguing with you, which is a stupid move. Everyone on here who hasn't said 'Brawl sucks' has good points and wants to save this game. I like Smash-4, but I do agree, it is bland. Down Throws, Up Airs, Up Tilts, and Up Specials galore, with a bit of Side Tilt and Forward Air spam from Sheik (lame), with only a few creative characters, such as Megaman, Robin, Shulk, and Ryu. Cloud looks interesting as well, but man, nearly every single character in Sm4sh have very similar playstyles. Heck, even Zelda has Up Tilt chains.

Arguing? No, has to do with the fact that a few users here would always change the topic in what (let me see) "attitude" what does that have to do about Smash again? Mentioning myself in other threads (again useless and a waste of my time) lastly whining (which wasn't so much of why Brawl is 'terrible" but is a "fact" through years of tournament play that wouldn't end until I block that user, I still do not know if he's still mentioning bs or not and I don't care).

As for Smash-4, you already know my answer and my answer hasn't changed one bit.

 

[ZZSamantha]

I think I might have a solution to our Brawl problem; you see, I am working on a modification of Brawl that combines the best elements of each game into one (while adding new ones) called Smash Reborn. Perhaps it may be of interest to some of you. A new patch is on the horizon, and I think that people from all demographics should enjoy it.

I'm interested.

 

[Infernal163]

I think you all make some good points, guys. Sure, not everyone who says it won't die out explains how we can save it, but I think a lot of good points have been made. Also, I can't WAIT to see Smash Reborn!

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you! I can't wait to release the latest build!

 

[Tocaraca2]

We shouldn't be talking about Smash Reborn on here. This is a Brawl thread, and Smash Reborn isn't really Brawl, it just uses Brawl because Sm4sh can't be hacked yet.

 

[Deleted member]

No Brawl mod is Brawl anymore, but if it's something that can benefit the community, then by all means, it should be talked about.

Sometimes the answer doesn't lie within the game, but rather, in what we can do with the game.

 

[Tocaraca2]

No Brawl mod is Brawl anymore, but if it's something that can benefit the community, then by all means, it should be talked about.

Sometimes the answer doesn't lie within the game, but rather, in what we can do with the game.

Well I think that the answer to 'How can we save Brawl' isn't to 'make a mod that is better than Brawl', because that's just disrespecting the game and all of its fans. I like the game on its own, and your mod is basically a new Smash game.
That being said, Meta Knight definitely is broken. I dealt 23% with 1 Mach Tornado, and this is in Brawl where the move has like, no lag.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not trying to make a "better Brawl", what I'm doing is suggesting a mod which is designed to attract people of all audiences.

Here's an example; say you're in Country X and you're trying to build a tower, yet you either have bad parts, or not enough of them, then I, Country Y come across and offer to give you the parts that you need. Country Y's not trying to make a "better" tower like a ha-ha to your face, they are trying to help out. I am Country Y, and just because the parts I offer aren't native to your country doesn't mean that you should reject or decline them.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I'm not trying to make a "better Brawl", what I'm doing is suggesting a mod which is designed to attract people of all audiences.

Here's an example; say you're in Country X and you're trying to build a tower, yet you either have bad parts, or not enough of them, then I, Country Y come across and offer to give you the parts that you need. Country Y's not trying to make a "better" tower like a ha-ha to your face, they are trying to help out. I am Country Y, and just because the parts I offer aren't native to your country doesn't mean that you should reject or decline them.

I know you're not trying to make a better Brawl.
My point is that Smash Reborn is supposed to be like a new Smash game, not just a 'better Brawl'. Therefore people who are interested in it should talk about it on the actual Smash Reborn thread, not this thread.
If somebody makes a Brawl mod that just changes a few little factors (like removing tripping and limiting Chain Grabbing), then by all means they should advertise it on here and talk about it.

And I'm definitely interested in 'Brawl Rebalanced' :D

 

[Tocaraca2]

I have a lot of plans for it. I feel as though due to the mechanics of Brawl, I'd have a lot more flexibility in Rebalanced, since, Reborn, as you said, has to be it's own game, and therefor create an identity of it's own, whereas with Brawl, I can essentially do whatever I please.

I feel like you would have the ability to do a lot with Brawl rebalanced, such as separating Zelda/Sheik, Samus/ZSS, and Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard. Also, allowing you to slide up the lip of Final Destination instead of hitting it and then dying.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm actually quite excited! Then again, when it comes to my work, I'm always excited! This one will be hard because it'll have to be more in-line with Brawl, however, things should turn out.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I'm actually quite excited! Then again, when it comes to my work, I'm always excited! This one will be hard because it'll have to be more in-line with Brawl, however, things should turn out.

It won't be that hard if you aren't going to change everyone's moves and playstyles.
Please don't change their moves and playstyles...

 

[Deleted member]

Have any ideas?

 

[Tocaraca2]

Have any ideas?

Yes.
1: The things I mentioned earlier, with separating joined characters and making Final Destination not screw over your recoveries.
2: Make the gameplay very slightly faster, maybe x1.15 speed or something?
3: Give Sheik and the Pokemon new Down Specials. If possible, put Bouncing Fish in there, and Flare Blitz. I don't know what specials to give Squirtle and Ivysaur since I don't play Pokemon, but the Final Smashes from Project M were pretty cool IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes.
3: Give Sheik and the Pokemon new Down Specials. If possible, put Bouncing Fish in there, and Flare Blitz. I don't know what specials to give Squirtle and Ivysaur since I don't play Pokemon, but the Final Smashes from Project M were pretty cool IMO.

Please don't change their moves and playstyles...

I'm torn

 

[Deleted member]

I think I'll be keeping characters connected in this game, I don't like how Sakurai "individualized" them.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I'm torn

But, just because you give them Down Specials doesn't mean it will change their playstyles!
I mean, Bouncing Fish would make a cool addition to Brawl Sheik, just don't change her other moves unless there is some big problem with them. And Charizard having Flare Blitz would just make it slightly easier for him to recover, that's all. And it would be another KO move.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I think I'll be keeping characters connected in this game, I don't like how Sakurai "individualized" them.

Well then, at least make it so you can only play as one of the single Pokemon on the Pokemon Trainer throughout the whole match without them getting weaker and switching when they get KOd.
And include ZSS on the character selection screen next to Samus, like how Sheik is next to Zelda.

 

[Respect38]

I believe what Xanadu did with Brawl did some good to reinvigorate how Brawl was played (seeing Aposl rock Pokémon Trainer with the 2 stock setup was pretty hype) and I think a lot of things from that Xanadu Brawl ruleset could be applied to majors to make the game more appealing to viewers and to players.

At the same time, I don't think that banning Meta Knight nor Ice Climbers is possible immediately--perhaps not even eventually. I think that a modified suggestion based upon something like this would be nice in allowing players to utilize Meta Knight and Ice Climbers if that was a historical main of theirs, while still forcing them to develop their secondaries further if they intend on winning Brawl tourneys.

If it is reasonable to try and get this to be done, then any major individual who actually wishes to continue to push this game further ought to be contacted to see what they think. No idea, no matter how great, is going to have any relevance if it's stuck in Page 11 of this thread and never escapes out of it.

So... is there any major individual left to push the game?

Edit: And discussing some irrelevant Smash mod that will never be at any major event ever doesn't really help grow Brawl. But go ahead, throw in another attempt to "fix" Brawl to the many that already exist.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm... That's an interesting take on my mod. Pretty interesting. Let me ask you this though; if you were a poor man sitting on the curb about to die of starvation, and somebody offered you some food (despite it being the worst in town), what would you do? Call it irrelevant and die, or take the food? Brawl is like a man about to enter the grave, at this point you aren't in the position the decline any mod, regardless of how "small" it is.

- I rest my case.

 

[Deleted member]

Respect38 - (something you lack), I was looking at some of the Brawl threads, and I think that a mod is the only way at this point. Just think about how many rules, and clauses, and exceptions, and gimmicks that the Brawl community has to come up with just to make their game "balanced" and "viable". Brawl has inherit gameplay flaws that can't be fixed by outside circumstances alone (such as the "Sakurai angle", Hitstun Cancelling, Fast/Strong fighters, Camping Viability, Laginess/Slowness, Tripping). Without mods, Brawl is doomed, just like Smash 4. Brawl's sole purpose is to be modded, and if we don't utilize that, then the game will most assuredly die.

 

[Respect38]

I have absolutely no problem with what you're doing, but it's not Brawl. It may use Brawl at its platform, but it simply isn't Brawl; I think that you're underestimating the momentum of being the vanilla game--that's not something that can be replaced.

Brawl can continue to exist at majors, and could even grow if the community got behind it. I'm fine with you trying to do whatever you're trying to do with Reborn, but it's independent of pushing Brawl forward. I would beg you to keep discussion of your mod in your own thread and let Brawl be discussed here, but I really doubt that this thread is going to be purged of off-topic stuff anyway.

Therefore, I beg anyone who isn't Mario Smith, if you want to talk about Reborn, talk about Reborn in Reborn's thread. We're here to talk about Brawl.

Also, I would point out that restricting Meta Knight and Ice Climbers is something that actually hasn't been tried--at least, not extensively. Xanadu did it, and I felt like it was mostly a success.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that Brawl should at least be rebalanced. As, in it's current state, it's a lose-lose; by keeping Metaknight and Climbers, nobody else can play their character, but by removing them, the people that mained them have nowhere to go.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I think with PM's issues it would be blatantly obvious on why a mod is not the answer. Face it, a mod is NOT the answer.

The answer is to actually put in efforts for BRAWL itself. Make it so that if anyone shows any interest in the game that the information they need is right at their fingertips. Which is what I've been working on and am currently trying to finish for a 2016 launch. WiiBrawlin is going to help with that. If you might be interested in contributing pop me a message, I could use all the help I can get.

 

[Deleted member]

It's hard to say what exactly Brawl needs. The simple fact is, that is has some major flaws (Metaknight, ICs, Banana Spam, Camping, Tripping) that need to be ameliorated before Brawl can return to it's glory days. I miss back when Brawl was popular, but people only played it because it was the latest game, as, once Sm4sh came out, people instantly abandoned Brawl. I know that the original game has a value that mods don't properly portray, however, unless we can find a way to fix all of these problems (or at least MK, ICs, and Tripping), then Brawl most likely won't be advancing any time soon.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I have absolutely no problem with what you're doing, but it's not Brawl. It may use Brawl at its platform, but it simply isn't Brawl; I think that you're underestimating the momentum of being the vanilla game--that's not something that can be replaced.

Brawl can continue to exist at majors, and could even grow if the community got behind it. I'm fine with you trying to do whatever you're trying to do with Reborn, but it's independent of pushing Brawl forward. I would beg you to keep discussion of your mod in your own thread and let Brawl be discussed here, but I really doubt that this thread is going to be purged of off-topic stuff anyway.

Therefore, I beg anyone who isn't Mario Smith, if you want to talk about Reborn, talk about Reborn in Reborn's thread. We're here to talk about Brawl.

Also, I would point out that restricting Meta Knight and Ice Climbers is something that actually hasn't been tried--at least, not extensively. Xanadu did it, and I felt like it was mostly a success.

I completely agree.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Isn't this just adorable

 

[Respect38]

I kind of feel like the thread that I linked to has some good suggestions, but, after thinking about it more, I feel like it would be more fair to restrict the number of times that a player plays [1 in Bo3, 2 in Bo5, must play secondary for the first match] rather than restricting the number of times that the player wins with Meta Knight, because with the latter allows the Meta Knight main to have a counterpick against the other player for the win, should they win the first match and then drop the second match with Meta Knight. The fact that someone would have to potentially beat someone's Meta Knight twice [or three times!] to win a set seems unreasonable if we're trying to restrict Meta Knight's impact.

 

[Deleted member]

Just ban Metaknight and ICs from normal tournaments and make them usable in side-events.

 

[Respect38]

The problem, however, is to come up with a proposal that could be promoted to Brawl tournaments that has at least the potential to be implemented. I don't think that banning Meta Knight and Ice Climbers is something that could be pushed for with success; there are still too many players who play as Meta Knight. We need a suggestion that wouldn't make Meta Knight mains completely leave the tournaments, because TOs aren't going to go for that. We need a suggestion that both (1) keeps some Meta Knight mains going to the tourneys and (2) also pulls in some players that would be more interested in a Brawl tournament that limits Meta Knight or Ice Climbers. [say, players who like characters whose main barrier are Meta Knight or Ice Climbers. The last character matchup chart says that Lucario, DeDeDe, Toon Link, Fox, Pit, Peach, Kirby, Ike, Sheik, etc. (Game and Watch still has bad matchups with the new S tier) would be more available to play due to this.]

The only way to advertise to tournaments that are still using Meta Knight and Ice Climbers is to give them a reason to believe that Brawl will GROW if they restrict Meta Knight and Ice Climbers. Letting Meta Knight mains know that they could still utilize their Meta Knight skills to give them a better chance to win a Brawl tournament may be the only way to make this happen.

 

[Megakoopax]

We can't save brawl.

 

[Tocaraca2]

^ Ignore this guy.