How Can We Save Brawl?

[Infernal163]

I refuse to let the notion that one smash game will replace another be true! Brawl will still have tons of people play it, and it will stay alive! Surel it may have some wonky mechanics here and there, but it shall live on!

 

[the muted smasher]

Why should brawl stay alive over other games tho? It's not even brawl vs melee/smash 4 but fighters as a whole.

Metaknight while broken was one of the most fast paced characters the game offered. What brawl keeps with its pool of legal options that are unique is very very shallow in scheme of things and even more so when You start noting issues like infinites, tripping, and difficulty in the neutral/edge guarding to make meaningful progress at points.

I'm still fighting for my game I love that no one knows of like bushido blade. Brawl truely was bought and made competitive because of mindless mass consumption of product and trying to prove otherwise

 

[FirewaterDM]

Not gonna lie, i know the original poster for this made their post a long time ago, but I feel like all either of those options do is ensure the game dies.

1. One stock is the worst version of attempting to change the game up period. If people want to talk about spectators being a reason to care (they really shouldn't), then 1 stock is less fun and more luck based to a degree than the usual 3 stock. Why do so many people want Smash 4 to be 3 stock, but think the best idea to save brawl is 1? Pretty much 1 stock makes comebacks impossible and would increase the amount of camping because why approach? you have 1 stock + 3 minutes, people time each other out in other fighting games, and still would in smash. May as well have 3 stocks so at least the game is still interesting.

2. Anyone suggesting banning MK or IC's is asking for the game to actually die. However much people want to be on this honor-bound train of saying "to save brawl we need to get rid of the best 2 characters in the game". If you do that, you turn away every person who stopped playing Brawl for other games, and who'd be interested in coming back. Sure you can say **** Ice Climbers mains, go back to Melee/PM and it's a better game, but what about the Metaknight players? For every 1 IC's, there's bound to be 3-5 Metaknights at one given tournament. Many people who dislike the game's speed may enjoy MK as the only character they can manage, those people who got really good at the game using either of these characters are more likely to leave for good and let the game die because they don't have that option anymore. Who wants to go back to a game where when it died, it was a fun game, but along with the general negativity that led to the game's decline to begin with still existing, now the character they spent 5-6 years on finetuning or getting good with doesn't exist? Regardless of their love for brawl what motivates them to go back if the character they find fun can't be played?

Either way, easiest way to at least ruin IC's in terms of being number 2. Bring back the stages that absolutely ****ed them. Bring back Frigate, Delfino, Brinstar(I'm only half kidding). And the others that were perfectly fine CP stages but got banned because of Metaknight. Ban Metankight from being able to CP to these stages, but allow other characters to go to these stages at their own peril (if the other player CP's to Frigate, the MK gets to stay MK, but if the MK was CPing he could not go to Frigate). Who knows, it might help with all of the salty people who cry about dealing with playing against possibly one of the top 5 hardest characters to learn in smash period if not only with the gameplay styles they have to deal with and the undeserved hate, if the stages that made their main form of strategy kind of terrible existed as well.

Either way Brawl was fine, we need to fix the mindset of the community before we ever consider banning characters or trying to pander to audiences.

 

[Tocaraca2]

*wall of text*

I never actually thought of this, you make some great points. What stages does Meta Knight do somewhat badly on?

EDIT: And I completely agree that 1 stock is horrible, and that 3 stock is the best.

Why should brawl stay alive over other games tho?

Because Brawl is unique as a fighting game. It plays much differently to any of the smash games, like all of them do. Every SSB version stands out.

 

[Tocaraca2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKEcxqo21AU
Matchups like these that are quite rare to see are what I love about Brawl. Half of the cast is not used very much, however when it is used, the game is amazing to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTPxKioXE08
Earth's Pit beats M2K's Meta Knight. Hype.

EDIT: Oops. I double posted.
I feel no shame.
Fight me moderators.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

1. One stock is the worst version of attempting to change the game up period. If people want to talk about spectators being a reason to care (they really shouldn't), then 1 stock is less fun and more luck based to a degree than the usual 3 stock. Why do so many people want Smash 4 to be 3 stock, but think the best idea to save brawl is 1? Pretty much 1 stock makes comebacks impossible and would increase the amount of camping because why approach? you have 1 stock + 3 minutes, people time each other out in other fighting games, and still would in smash. May as well have 3 stocks so at least the game is still interesting

I can't remember which event it was, but that big tournament that had 1-stock matches was so awesome that I actually found myself watching Brawl matches. It doesn't matter that timeouts are more common because the timer is so much shorter. The matches were super intense. Every single hit mattered, which is exactly what Brawl needed. When every hit doesn't quite matter as much, the defensive nature of the combat just overwhelms any semblance of tension. Comebacks can still happen at the set level in 1-stock matches.

I think 2-stock matches would be a decent compromise, but 3 stock makes matches agonizingly long. I don't understand why there is so much hate toward the 1-stock format. Considering that spectators are part of the lifeblood to a game's competitive longevity, it is something that has to be looked at more closely beyond "I hate that I lose once my stock is gone".

 

[New_Dumal]

I don't know if I can play Brawl with only one stock ...
But if its the possibility to make the game look great.... for me Brawl always looked great.

I miss Brawl so much I can't put in words.
I drop smash4/Melee at anytime to play some Brawl. If people were like this, we wouldn't needing this kind of conversation.
About character baning... I'm guilty. Actually MK is my favorite character to play as and to watch in Brawl.
If the community decides to ban MK, they will have to ban IC's too.
Both or neither. I think most people would play Brawl without MK That's sad.

 

[Raiden7x]

Let me satrt by saying that I grew up hating on Brawl. That being said that ruleset banning MK and IC is pretty interesting, needless to say that I would actually play Brawl with this rules, I'd only say that playing with only 1 stock is not good, matchs would be too short.. 2 stocks would be better for Brawl.

But yeah I would play the hell out of brawl IF it is with this ruleset

 

[Deleted member]

2-stock Brawl would be great for the game. There's a reason I always do it while playing with people online, matches don't drag on for so long nor do they go out too fast even though that 1-stock Brawl tourney was pure hype.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1026965140704189&id=159953534072025

We are famous.

 

[Deleted member]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1026965140704189&id=159953534072025

We are famous.

OH! That's why this thread had so many visiors.

 

[the muted smasher]

I never actually thought of this, you make some great points. What stages does Meta Knight do somewhat badly on?

EDIT: And I completely agree that 1 stock is horrible, and that 3 stock is the best.


Because Brawl is unique as a fighting game. It plays much differently to any of the smash games, like all of them do. Every SSB version stands out.

I repeat my question, You failed to make any points. What merits does it have over other fighters when t he highest level of play is broken?

 

[FirewaterDM]

I repeat my question, You failed to make any points. What merits does it have over other fighters when t he highest level of play is broken?

I mean the highest level of play is something to watch because of what is involved. Unlike melee, yes the game is slower, yes punishes are smaller and not as common but it forces player to have a much stronger mental and endurance game. versus melee or Smash 4. Specifically because the game is so defensive and offense is so difficult to perform, the game is dependent on the number of punishes or errors made by either player. At lower levels this number is relatively large, and all that is seen is the unsafe play that's still relatively slow.

At higher levels it becomes a game of attrition, of chess, simply because at the highest levels the mental requirements are relatively hard to obtain and even maintain. In other games you can learn the tech and still keep up with much better players. However in brawl, you still need a lot of mental fortitude and endurance to adequately punish your opponents. Also at high level play, the number of mistakes allowed drops from a few to possibly 2-3 or fewer, depending on the character.

Tl;dr- brawl is a diferent game because the speed forces players to be more thoguhtful with their movement. This leads and builds into the slower gameplay being hader than the faster play because opportunities for punishment and taking tocks, especially at top levels is much smaller than the other games.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

If you want to reinforce mental fortitude and encourage these short interactions, why not just play in Sudden Death mode with 8 stock?

 

[FirewaterDM]

If you want to reinforce mental fortitude and encourage these short interactions, why not just play in Sudden Death mode with 8 stock?

by short interactions I mean percent. Obviously regardless of the game that mode would be incredibly unusable. Since the game is designed to be incredibly defensive, there are few instances where a concrete punish can happen, in comparison to Melee where usually there are a sizable number of errors which can guarantee death. Unless it is from IC's/other 0-death character/MK chain to edgeguard, the majority of punishes only gather a few percent. the game foces more mental endurance because except for those few instances you have to land 4-5 of these punishes to get a stock, and the tech/spacing/neutral required to either act on those opportunities, or prevent them from occuring to you is very high.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

These comments are absolute pitiful and a sigh of grief and pity all together

 

[Szion]

Let that garbage die @_@ Literally every smash game i've played wasbetter.

n64
smash flash
melee
smash crusade
Project M
Rivals of aether
Smash 4

my god. fangames that played better than you. Unbelievable.

 

[Gero Zeal]

Why do we have to keep putting down Brawl or call it inferior? Yes, we already know of its flaws and short comings; we get it. Now, leave it be and let's try to work with or around it!

I can understand that for Melee players looking forward to Brawl that it was a bit of a let down; heck, as a Smash 4 player going back, it was painful to try and play a game with different techniques. But it can still find its place, from what I can understand, it can be viewed as entry level for newcomers to the competitive Smash scene (with exception to Smash 4).

At this point, I refer to Xanadu's latest tourney that featured Brawl, it was fair fun to watch... thinking about it now, I might even go back to watch some other mathes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZJoEcxWEmo

 

[Deleted member]

Why do we have to keep putting down Brawl or call it inferior? Yes, we already know of its flaws and short comings; we get it. Now, leave it be and let's try to work with or around it!

I can understand that for Melee players looking forward to Brawl that it was a bit of a let down; heck, as a Smash 4 player going back, it was painful to try and play a game with different techniques. But it can still find its place, from what I can understand, it can be viewed as entry level for newcomers to the competitive Smash scene (with exception to Smash 4).

At this point, I refer to Xanadu's latest tourney that featured Brawl, it was fair fun to watch... thinking about it now, I might even go back to watch some other mathes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZJoEcxWEmo

ABOUT TIME THEY UPLOADED THE MATCHES. Man, I'm so happy right now. <3

 

[Tocaraca2]

I repeat my question, You failed to make any points. What merits does it have over other fighters when t he highest level of play is broken?

I don't understand your question.

 

[jigglesthepuff]

I'm okay with Brawl staying dead. It should have been evident years ago that Meta-Knight stayed banned. Now it's too late to matter.

Even with MK and ICs out of the picture, the game is in no way viable for competition with the rest of the roster. Ike and Mario will not compete with the likes of Olimar or Marth in any way, and there will still be tripping. This, and save for several personal things I dislike about Brawl's mechanics that I'll keep to myself.

Best to stick to SSBM and SSB4.

and also Marth, Dedede, Falco, Icies, and Wario chaingrabs. ResidentSleeper

EDIT: About the banning of Icies and MK, a BIG part of Smash is the spectator part. Sure in Melee, you see alot of spacies, but you tend to see other characters as well and they aren't as broken as Brawl MK. You can find a chart on Reddit somewhere about a statistical ranking on most used characters from tournaments around the time that was posted. The gap between MK and the 2nd highest ranking character is HUGE. People get tired of seeing the same character over and over and over again, so they just get bored of the game. You could say the same for Melee, but as I said earlier, they aren't as dominant as MK. People got bored of seeing MK over and over again so they just moved on.

TL;DR: Spectating is a big part of Smash and people didn't like seeing MK all the time.

Here's the pic of character dominance: http://i.imgur.com/ZnqkkPk.png

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Anyone thought of 2-stock Brawl? I've tried it a bit with a friend, and matches were fairly quick and it didn't sacrifice the fun of it.

 

[Strong-Arm]

So im actually hosting brawl tournaments now

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

So im actually hosting brawl tournaments now

What attendance numbers are you getting?

 

[Diosama]

You cannot

 

[Zelder]

The biggest problem with Brawl was that the tip top tier characters consisted of Meta Knight, Olimar, and Ice Climbers. That's a boring spread if there ever was one.

I do miss Snake, though.

 

[Tocaraca2]

So im actually hosting brawl tournaments now

Doesn't make a difference to me unless you are hosting them in the UK.

 

[FirewaterDM]

Either way, the ruleset doesn't matter but I do think it's a concern that "entertainment" value is being considered as a reasonable justification for banning characters. I don't think banning MK and IC's will do anything but absolutely ensure that Brawl sinks into the depths of never being a competitive game ever again. One thing to remember is that for however much people hated the "boring" or "campy" play that a lot, and this is moreso for MK than IC's, but a ton of people did play that character. If we want to save the game/bring it back to relevance, we need to not only get new blood but also to motivate the old players who enjoyed this game to come back.

ELIMINATING the capability for them to use the character they spent so much time on I think is a deterrent for any older player who left the game to come back. It would be the equivalent of what Melee went through before they rebounded after the documentary. If Fox had been banned for being "too good" and to motivate people to try the game how many people do you honestly think come back to play Melee? It's kind of like yes there were design flaws but the game we enjoyed so much were caused by those design flaws, banning the character is more than likely not going to bring older players back, will create separation of the remaining brawl community, and honestly makes the game a little worse. There are ways to deal with the problems of MK and IC's without considering banning them. After all, a lot of characters also can do the same CG things IC's can (DDD, Pikachu, Falco, etc.) and while those aren't as punishing, they potentially can be. Also grab-release shenanigans on Wario/Earthbound kids also exist. Either way you can fix the stagelist to make IC's less dumb anyway.

tl;dr- brawl requires some old players to come back along with new players, if you ban away characters that a large number of people who left the game played, they won't come back. Also the janky things like infinites that people cry about will still exist. We should keep IC's and MK legal.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You could just as easily argue that IC and MK are responsible for many players departing. So, it's all a numbers game really. Which group is more worthwhile to you? The pro-IC/MK crowd? Or the anti?

 

[FirewaterDM]

You could just as easily argue that IC and MK are responsible for many players departing. So, it's all a numbers game really. Which group is more worthwhile to you? The pro-IC/MK crowd? Or the anti?

But to answer your question, whichever group brings back more players. And seeing as how the game's rep isn't too great and we need the older players to come back I'd say we need the pro group more because of how many players especially at the top/mid level played MK or IC's. I don't know about you, but if we want Brawl to come back, we kind of need the star power/top players to come back so the game looks good. and if MK or IC's are gone I don't see that happening. Even in your hypothetical world, Brawl's taken too many hits to afford the ability to try and start from scratch again, especially when other games exist.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

The biggest problem with Brawl was that the tip top tier characters consisted of Meta Knight, Olimar, and Ice Climbers. That's a boring spread if there ever was one.

I do miss Snake, though.

I never minded MK. Olimer, much less. And this is coming from a Bowser main. I'd be up for banning ICs, though (although, I'm also open to learning the MU). Being killed off a Grab (which is actually a lot more simpler to nab than people make it ought to be, unless you're MK himself) is a lot more threatening than whatever MK can do.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Why don't the people that whine so much just switch to Smash-4 since the game is "balanced". And the players who won't whine and find ways to accept Brawl the way it is and find ways to achieve greatness. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: nvm, ignore this

 

[Tocaraca2]

Why don't the people that whine so much just switch to Smash-4 since the game is "balanced". And the players who won't whine and find ways to accept Brawl the way it is and find ways to achieve greatness. Thanks.

Maybe because they don't like Sm4sh's game engine or other features? For example, I hated the look of Smash-4 when I first saw it, my first thought was that "NO THEY RUINED THE SOUND EFFECTS! FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU". I actually like Pit (well technically Dark Pit) in Sm4sh now, but not as much as in Brawl.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Maybe because they don't like Sm4sh's game engine or other features? For example, I hated the look of Smash-4 when I first saw it, my first thought was that "NO THEY RUINED THE SOUND EFFECTS! FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU". I actually like Pit (well technically Dark Pit) in Sm4sh now, but not as much as in Brawl.

Brawl destroyed the sound effects in the transition from Melee. I certainly think Melee's sound effectives could be improved; they are quite basic/simple, but they communicated things clearly and were so satisfying. Brawl changed it all to aluminum siding wobbling in the wind: too wispy and slippery sounding. Also, why change Mario's classic NES fireball sound to its current ventilation burst noise? I hate all the modern audio. x_x

 

[Tocaraca2]

Brawl destroyed the sound effects in the transition from Melee. I certainly think Melee's sound effectives could be improved; they are quite basic/simple, but they communicated things clearly and were so satisfying. Brawl changed it all to aluminum siding wobbling in the wind: too wispy and slippery sounding. Also, why change Mario's classic NES fireball sound to its current ventilation burst noise? I hate all the modern audio. x_x

I haven't played Melee and I have no interest in playing it. I was talking about the transition from Brawl to Sm4sh, not from Melee to Brawl.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I haven't played Melee and I have no interest in playing it. I was talking about the transition from Brawl to Sm4sh, not from Melee to Brawl.

I know. I'm saying they're all terrible after Melee. Saying Brawl or Sm4sh has better sound is silly. XD

 

[Tocaraca2]

I know. I'm saying they're all terrible after Melee. Saying Brawl or Sm4sh has better sound is silly. XD

Don't express your opinion as a statement, it's making me hate you for saying Brawl sounds are bad. xD

 

[Infernal163]

Let that garbage die @_@ Literally every smash game i've played wasbetter.

n64
smash flash
melee
smash crusade
Project M
Rivals of aether
Smash 4

my god. fangames that played better than you. Unbelievable.

Brawl is NOT garbage! How DARE you insult it!

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

I sought a thread to post this in, and now I have found one. Brawl solutions that may or may not work. Warning- some of these theories are very out there, so read with caution. I'll drop a spoiler over it so people can pass it by, cuz it's a lot.

Spoiler: click to reveal moveset

You see, the problem with Brawl is that it was made with four players in mind. Attacks are best for hitting multiple players at once or focusing on racking up damage against one. To avoid a lockdown, you'd need a buddy can bust you out. That's why I think to save Brawl, it should be played in exclusively doubles. That also could potentially break a lot of the stalling patterns seen in the game.

Speaking of stalling, I think the timer should be removed to completely obliterate the purpose of stalling. The reason Brawl died in the first place is that it was a game of hit and run, since it was a lot easier to run than hit, and then wait for time to run out.

Also, I think that by removing Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, Olimar, and Diddy Kong, most other characters become much more capable and actually a lot more balanced. I played mostly mid tier characters in Brawl and they're a lot of fun, despite not being designed for high-level, technical play.

And just look at the amount of stages that could be potentially legalized in a game like this. Battlefield, Final D, Yoshi's Island (new), Smashville, Halberd, Delfino, Castle Siege, Lylat, Frigate Orpheon- heck, even Brinstar and Jungle Japes have a chance, they're 3DS counterpicks at my local and they're pretty popular, especially in doubles. You might even be able to allow walk-offs due to the nature of the gameplay style.

Using this ruleset, Brawl can be the "easy to learn, hard to master" game of patience, accuracy, team chemistry, and doubles strategy rather than a game of intense rushdown combo ability and technical prowess. What do you think?