How are we Going to Deal with the Casuals?

[DakotaBonez]

Seriously, someone give me a link of when Sakurai said smash was meant as a party game, then I might believe you guys.

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/10/masahiro-sakurai-super-smash-bros-balanced/

"One of the goals for Super Smash Bros. is that it’s a party game—Nintendo want people to pick it up and have fun together. This is why “For Fun” and “For Glory” modes are separated within the game, to allow for both competitive and casual players to enjoy themselves."

The point is, competitive games take tons of input from the competitive community, and tailor the game around the competitive playstyle. By trying to cater to both casuals and competitives, only the casuals really win. Casuals can still play games like League of Legends with their friends and have a good time. Sakurai never gets in touch with the fans or reaches out to the community, however, nintendo has been hosting tournaments and reaching out to us in Sakurai's place, but it doesn't matter because Sakurai has the final say. If he had listened to fan input, he would've made the For Glory mode not limited to Final destination, as the competitive community prefers battlefield type stages in many matchups. Sakurai even states in this article that he balances the game around different types of positioning and items.

Damnit I got dragged into the argument. I am ashamed of myself. I'm a grown ass man for god's sake.

EDIT: It doesn't even matter anyway because smash is still the best game, competitive or not, (although I'll always see it as a competitive game) around.

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

Damnit I got dragged into the argument. I am ashamed of myself. I'm a grown *** man for god's sake.

Dude, it's cool. Sometimes us adults need the "lulz", too, ya know?

On a side note...I'm going with the contradicting troll known as M. Sakurai that said fourway action battle royale... >.>

 

[SS-bros14]

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/10/masahiro-sakurai-super-smash-bros-balanced/

"One of the goals for Super Smash Bros. is that it’s a party game—Nintendo want people to pick it up and have fun together. This is why “For Fun” and “For Glory” modes are separated within the game, to allow for both competitive and casual players to enjoy themselves."

The point is, competitive games take tons of input from the competitive community, and tailor the game around the competitive playstyle. By trying to cater to both casuals and competitives, only the casuals really win. Casuals can still play games like League of Legends with their friends and have a good time. Sakurai never gets in touch with the fans or reaches out to the community, however, nintendo has been hosting tournaments and reaching out to us in Sakurai's place, but it doesn't matter because Sakurai has the final say. If he had listened to fan input, he would've made the For Glory mode not limited to Final destination, as the competitive community prefers battlefield type stages in many matchups. Sakurai even states in this article that he balances the game around different types of positioning and items.

Damnit I got dragged into the argument. I am ashamed of myself. I'm a grown *** man for god's sake.

EDIT: It doesn't even matter anyway because smash is still the best game, competitive or not, (although I'll always see it as a competitive game) around.

Well, you're right. So call me wrong or whatever.
Edit: Wait, so Sakurai once called it a fighting action game or whatever? Now I'm kinda confused.

 

[SmashBro99]

Well, you're right. So call me wrong or whatever.
Edit: Wait, so Sakurai once called it a fighting action game or whatever? Now I'm kinda confused.

Wrong. :3

 

[SS-bros14]

Wrong. :3

Meh, had it coming.

 

[Fenriraga]

I'm in the crowd that still can't fathom why it has to be one or the other. I love competitive Smash. I'm not a huge Brawl fan. I'll be playing the hell out of For Glory, and I play Project M with my friends on a weekly basis. But I also occasionally like to goof around and just play it like I would a party game. It works perfectly as both, so I just don't get why it can't BE both.

Blegh.

 

[LancerStaff]

How to deal with the casuals?

Burn em at the stake I say!

Nah but seriously, when you're playing online, I think you will be grouped with people who have a similar "Smash Power" as you, I'm still not exactly sure how this will work, as it seems you can increase your smash power just from playing the home run contest minigame. With Namco Bandai workin on this and no doubt puttin input into the online mode, it'll probably be similar to Tekken Tag 2, which pitted you against people of a similar rank. Has any other fighting game had an online system as great as Tekken Tag 2's?
Even if your rank isn't officially displayed, it'll probably be like a hidden stat kept on your record.

So, for the first few matches, you'll be fighting some noobs, but as you progress you'll be fighting opponents of an equal skill level...I hope.

If not you can always just play with friends.

Please don't mess this up Sakurai.

Sakurai specifically said that GSP wouldn't effect or be effected by online play.

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/10/masahiro-sakurai-super-smash-bros-balanced/

"One of the goals for Super Smash Bros. is that it’s a party game—Nintendo want people to pick it up and have fun together. This is why “For Fun” and “For Glory” modes are separated within the game, to allow for both competitive and casual players to enjoy themselves."

The point is, competitive games take tons of input from the competitive community, and tailor the game around the competitive playstyle. By trying to cater to both casuals and competitives, only the casuals really win. Casuals can still play games like League of Legends with their friends and have a good time. Sakurai never gets in touch with the fans or reaches out to the community, however, nintendo has been hosting tournaments and reaching out to us in Sakurai's place, but it doesn't matter because Sakurai has the final say. If he had listened to fan input, he would've made the For Glory mode not limited to Final destination, as the competitive community prefers battlefield type stages in many matchups. Sakurai even states in this article that he balances the game around different types of positioning and items.

Damnit I got dragged into the argument. I am ashamed of myself. I'm a grown *** man for god's sake.

EDIT: It doesn't even matter anyway because smash is still the best game, competitive or not, (although I'll always see it as a competitive game) around.

There's actually a ton of reasons fG is FD only, up to and including listening to the fans.

 

[DevaAshera]

I think the fact that its original title was 'Dragon King: The Fighting Game' should be sufficient proof that it was originally a fighting game in Sakurai's eyes.

Fighting games don't feature four players fighting eachother at once.

Fighting games don't include randomness such as items, smash balls, tripping, random stage hazards

Fighting games have a health bar

Fighting games have matches decided by dropping that health bar to 0, not using invincibility to ledgehog or knocking eachother off the stage (sometimes with little to no damage on them)

Fighting games have actual combos and inputs.

Explain to me why Smash IS a fighting game again? Turning off items and choosing only stages with no randomness? Sure that makes it more skill based, and I mostly play that way. Doesn't make it a fighting game at all. Makes it a party game with all the random junk turned off.

Make a stage with walls and a bottom, put it on stamina mode with no items on, that's the closest smash gets to a fighting game.

I love smash, all of em. I'm not bashing it.

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

Just so you know, before Street Fighter II came about the Genre we now know as Beat-Em-Ups were classified as 'Fighting Games'.

The only reason that fighting games ended up being labeled the way you put it was because Street Fighter II popularized a concept and most games after it copied that style and then eventually transitioned said style into 3D.

Also, Combos weren't originally an intentional thing, they were actually a glitch or exploit that was discovered in the original Street Fighter II and ended up being incorporated into all future titles and then future games that were inspired by Street Fighter II.

Here is what a Fighting Game is at its Core: 2 or More Characters Fighting and trying to score KOs with that being the singular goal..that's all, that is the essence of a Fighting Game.

Its really not a Party Game...a Party Game wouldn't gain the competitive audience that Super Smash Bros. has..we don't see tournaments or tier list for Mario Party, characters in party games don't have diverse movesets and different stats either.

If anything, Super Smash Bros. either created its own Genre, which would be called Battle Royal I guess, or its a new Sub-Genre, which I'd dub 'Platform Fighter'.

Also, it appeared at EVO, which is almost if not exclusively for Fighting Games and was THE most watched stream in the History of the Event as said so by the Event Organizers.

Not all Fighters have to Adhere to the Narrow Viewpoint of what makes a game a 'Fighter'..I've never heard of any other Genre being defined so narrowly.

Also, its listed on the ESRB, Nintendo eShop, in Magazines, and more as being a 'Fighting Game'...so regardless of what some whiny members of the Fighting Game Community want to say about it, its been officially classified a Fighting Game and it is not for any of us to truly define but the industry itself.

 

[Fenriraga]

I think the fact that its original title was 'Dragon King: The Fighting Game' should be sufficient proof that it was originally a fighting game in Sakurai's eyes.


Yeah, yeah, whatever.

Just so you know, before Street Fighter II came about the Genre we now know as Beat-Em-Ups were classified as 'Fighting Games'.

The only reason that fighting games ended up being labeled the way you put it was because Street Fighter II popularized a concept and most games after it copied that style and then eventually transitioned said style into 3D.

Also, Combos weren't originally an intentional thing, they were actually a glitch or exploit that was discovered in the original Street Fighter II and ended up being incorporated into all future titles and then future games that were inspired by Street Fighter II.

Here is what a Fighting Game is at its Core: 2 or More Characters Fighting and trying to score KOs with that being the singular goal..that's all, that is the essence of a Fighting Game.

Its really not a Party Game...a Party Game wouldn't gain the competitive audience that Super Smash Bros. has..we don't see tournaments or tier list for Mario Party, characters in party games don't have diverse movesets and different stats either.

If anything, Super Smash Bros. either created its own Genre, which would be called Battle Royal I guess, or its a new Sub-Genre, which I'd dub 'Platform Fighter'.

Also, it appeared at EVO, which is almost if not exclusively for Fighting Games and was THE most watched stream in the History of the Event as said so by the Event Organizers.

Not all Fighters have to Adhere to the Narrow Viewpoint of what makes a game a 'Fighter'..I've never heard of any other Genre being defined so narrowly.

Also, its listed on the ESRB, Nintendo eShop, in Magazines, and more as being a 'Fighting Game'...so regardless of what some whiny members of the Fighting Game Community want to say about it, its been officially classified a Fighting Game and it is not for any of us to truly define but the industry itself.

This. SO. MUCH. THIS.

Seriously, defining a fighting game so narrowly like that is extremely stupid. Yes, things like a health bar and such make for a more TRADITIONAL fighting game, that much is clear. But that's pretty much like saying "Sonic isn't a platformer because it doesn't have a run button (shut up I know Lost World exists) and you don't have traditional health." Or saying that "Xenoblade/Kingdom Hearts isn't an RPG because it's not turn based like traditional RPGs are." Are things like that common in these genres? Absolutely. But they aren't the bible.
And if you think Smash is the only non-traditonal fighting game, you'd be dead wrong. Dissidia Final Fantasy, The DBZ games, all of those have absolutely insane rules that deviate far from something you'd see in, say, Street Fighter. But they are still, at their core, fighting games.
I can't believe this is even still a debate, seriously.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fighting games don't feature four players fighting eachother at once.

Fighting games don't include randomness such as items, smash balls, tripping, random stage hazards

Fighting games have a health bar

Fighting games have matches decided by dropping that health bar to 0, not using invincibility to ledgehog or knocking eachother off the stage (sometimes with little to no damage on them)

Fighting games have actual combos and inputs.

Explain to me why Smash IS a fighting game again? Turning off items and choosing only stages with no randomness? Sure that makes it more skill based, and I mostly play that way. Doesn't make it a fighting game at all. Makes it a party game with all the random junk turned off.

Make a stage with walls and a bottom, put it on stamina mode with no items on, that's the closest smash gets to a fighting game.

I love smash, all of em. I'm not bashing it.

By definition smash is not a fighting game; it is a party game. But for a party game, it sure feels a lot like a fighting game. In fact, a compelling argument can be made that smash (at least Melee) has the same tactical elements of the best fighters, and actually has more depth than they do.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

we are NEVER gonna get a melee 2. The closest thing we have to melee 2 is this game

 

[DevaAshera]

By definition smash is not a fighting game; it is a party game. But for a party game, it sure feels a lot like a fighting game. In fact, a compelling argument can be made that smash (at least Melee) has the same tactical elements of the best fighters, and actually has more depth than they do.

As far as I'm concerned, its a Fighting Game, just its own new Sub-Genre. It does away with quite a bit of the traditional fare of Fighters, but so have other Fighters such as Power Stone and Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy (which is an RPG-Fighter by its own definition).

The point of Super Smash Bros. is to fight and KO opponents that are also playable characters, so it really does fit the basic definition of a Fighting Game..a Party Game is more Random with Every Character having the exact same stats, only model and animation changes.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd say SSB is a party game first, fighting game second. But really, Sakurai specializes in genre-blending and bending games, probably just so people will argue over the genre.

Kirby is a platformer with unlimited flight, making it more of a beat-em-up then anything else. A not-platformer.

Kirby Air Ride is a racing game with no accelerate button, only a combination drift, brake, and action button. A very bizarre racing game.

Kid Icarus: Uprising is a shooter with RPG aspects that upends almost all aspects of standard shooters. One weapon per match/level, each weapon has multiple "moves," unlimited ammo, no regenerating health, and a focus on living on the edge and OHKOs. An unorthodox... Um, not entirely sure it qualifies as a shooter. You're shooting most of the time, i guess...

I'd say Super Smash Bros. is just as hard to peg as his other games.

 

[Crawful]

Why do people get upset that all sorts of people get to play the game? It's confirmed there is going to be matchmaking based on skill, so I don't see the big deal of kids trying out the wi-fi system.

 

[smashbroskilla]

What do you guys think?

What do you care what casual players do? I feel this way with the competetive and casual side. Who cares? If you learn the game quicker and beat them then you move on to for Glory mode. And how do you know kids can even spount anything off yet on the 3DS? Is there mic capability I don't know about yet?

 

[DevaAshera]

I'd say SSB is a party game first, fighting game second. But really, Sakurai specializes in genre-blending and bending games, probably just so people will argue over the genre.

Kid Icarus: Uprising is a shooter with RPG aspects that upends almost all aspects of standard shooters. One weapon per match/level, each weapon has multiple "moves," unlimited ammo, no regenerating health, and a focus on living on the edge and OHKOs. An unorthodox... Um, not entirely sure it qualifies as a shooter. You're shooting most of the time, i guess...

Yeah, he is good at that.

Nintendo classifies Kid Icarus Uprising as a Mixture of On Rails Shooter (Flying Sections) and 3rd Person Shooter (On Foot Sections).

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, he is good at that.

Nintendo classifies Kid Icarus Uprising as a Mixture of On Rails Shooter (Flying Sections) and 3rd Person Shooter (On Foot Sections).

Saying KI:U is a rail shooter is like saying Brawl is a platformer because of SSE.

 

[DevaAshera]

Saying KI:U is a rail shooter is like saying Brawl is a platformer because of SSE.

I said its a mixture. The flying sections that are half of the game (if not more) are Rail Shooter style. You have little to no control over where you're going or how fast you're getting there. All you can do is minimal movement and aim your weapon..that is what a Rail Shooter is. StarFox is also classified as a Rail Shooter, more or less, except when Dog Fights or Certain Bosses are happening, you're locked to a fixed direction with minimal control over your speed and direction.
I'd also say that Super Smash Bros. was very inspired by Platformers, hence why I call its genre 'Platform-Fighter'.

 

[LancerStaff]

I said its a mixture. The flying sections that are half of the game (if not more) are Rail Shooter style. You have little to no control over where you're going or how fast you're getting there. All you can do is minimal movement and aim your weapon..that is what a Rail Shooter is. StarFox is also classified as a Rail Shooter, more or less, except when Dog Fights or Certain Bosses are happening, you're locked to a fixed direction with minimal control over your speed and direction.
I'd also say that Super Smash Bros. was very inspired by Platformers, hence why I call its genre 'Platform-Fighter'.

The flight segments are nowhere near half the game. 70% of solo is on foot, and the flight segments are fairly shallow. Starfox (SNES and 64 to be specific) is a rail shooter because it's a rail shooter 90% of the time, and it's mechanics are focused around it.

 

[Xiaphas]

Thanks for reminding me how much I hate debates about categorization.

 

[SmashBro99]

Well the creator of the game says it's a party game first, so we can shove it into EVO with a new ruleset and yes the game is wildly popular so ofc it's the most watched stream

 

[BindingBlade]

Ignore 'em or beat their asses.

 

[cmvnb3]

Another day, another series of incorrect squabbling on both sides over if smash is a fighting or party game... Well it's like this: you can set it to "party game" and you can set it to "fighting game". So that makes it both a fighting and party game. Congratulations, you've just read one of the few sensible posts in regards to this topic! Hooray for you! All of that pent up frustration it's probably been giving you is finally being released now...

 

[staindgrey]

You don't seem to be able to read or you missed all my posts...and no, it's a party game first, and people decide to ban items/stages to make it more skill based, it's still not a fighting game sorry.

You guys thinking smash was developed to be a fighting game amuses me...

I don't think I've ever met anyone as willfully ignorant as this before. At least, not in person. Anonymity has a tendency to allow people to talk without a filter. Or a thought. Or... shame.

To be honest, I'm confused as to why you're even here.

 

[SS-bros14]

Another day, another series of incorrect squabbling on both sides over if smash is a fighting or party game... Well it's like this: you can set it to "party game" and you can set it to "fighting game". So that makes it both a fighting and party game. Congratulations, you've just read one of the few sensible posts in regards to this topic! Hooray for you! All of that pent up frustration it's probably been giving you is finally being released now...

You're about a day late, we been dropped that argument .

 

[cmvnb3]

You're about a day late, we been dropped that argument .

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here and I'm also gonna have to ask you to look right above your post. The Argument is never dropped.

 

[SS-bros14]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here and I'm also gonna have to ask you to look right above your post. The Argument is never dropped.

Well I'm done with it .
I'm done arguing about this, it's obviously still a fighting game.

 

[DevaAshera]

The flight segments are nowhere near half the game. 70% of solo is on foot, and the flight segments are fairly shallow. Starfox (SNES and 64 to be specific) is a rail shooter because it's a rail shooter 90% of the time, and it's mechanics are focused around it.

I'm not going to do the Math on that..but I do know there are two chapters that are completely Flying Sections, Chapter 22 (only the Boss is On Foot) and Chapter 25.
Again though, I said it was a Mixture of On-Rails for the Flying Sections and 3rd Person Shooter for the On Foot Sections..I'm not wrong in saying that, regardless of how much is actually Flying and how much is actually on foot.
Also keep in mind that all but 1 or 2 chapters begin with a Flying Section as the First Half and end with an On-Foot Section for the Second Half. The first half will always be the same time taken since it is on-rails (aside from if it has a boss part) but the on-foot sections can be as long as you'd like since you're directly in control of how fast and far you move yourself.

Well the creator of the game says it's a party game first, so we can shove it into EVO with a new ruleset and yes the game is wildly popular so ofc it's the most watched stream

Sakurai said he classified Super Smash Bros. as a 'Battle Royal' game..not exactly a Genre..and far from saying its a 'Party Game'..in fact, it could be argued that Battle is more closely related to Fighting..so yeah.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not going to do the Math on that..but I do know there are two chapters that are completely Flying Sections, Chapter 22 (only the Boss is On Foot) and Chapter 25.
Again though, I said it was a Mixture of On-Rails for the Flying Sections and 3rd Person Shooter for the On Foot Sections..I'm not wrong in saying that, regardless of how much is actually Flying and how much is actually on foot.
Also keep in mind that all but 1 or 2 chapters begin with a Flying Section as the First Half and end with an On-Foot Section for the Second Half. The first half will always be the same time taken since it is on-rails (aside from if it has a boss part) but the on-foot sections can be as long as you'd like since you're directly in control of how fast and far you move yourself.

Sakurai said he classified Super Smash Bros. as a 'Battle Royal' game..not exactly a Genre..and far from saying its a 'Party Game'..in fact, it could be argued that Battle is more closely related to Fighting..so yeah.

I've maxed out the in-game timer I've been playing so long. (999:59 if your curious.) I've played each level at least 20 times, and 2 or 3 100 times apiece. The flight segments are five minutes long, max. What I learned from all of this is that the ground segments are 3-to-4 times as long as the flight segments (that aren't always 5 minutes long, and many are a full minute shorter) when playing on 9.0 and going for all the treasure and monsters. Unless you're a total pro at solo modes, as in leaving behind all defensive powers for Heart Booster and Lightweight, my numbers add up. Two flight only levels doesn't really balance it out.

Then the multiplayer modes, considered to be equal to the solo game by Sakurai, have absolutely no flight. You only spend a sixth of the game flying, and it's all pathetically easy with a half-decent Cont. Fire weapon.

 

[DevaAshera]

That's going for everything on max difficulty though, for speed runners, it'd likely be about the same.
Regardless, I still said Mixture of the two, not out right half and half.
Since the Flight Sections are requirements and not optional minigames, that means the Genre for the game would be part 3rd Person Shooter, part On-Rails Shooter...how much of each doesn't really matter.

 

[LancerStaff]

That's going for everything on max difficulty though, for speed runners, it'd likely be about the same.
Regardless, I still said Mixture of the two, not out right half and half.
Since the Flight Sections are requirements and not optional minigames, that means the Genre for the game would be part 3rd Person Shooter, part On-Rails Shooter...how much of each doesn't really matter.

No, even speedrunning 9.0 still has a 2-to-1 ratio of ground to flight, all things considered.
So Brawl is a Platformer? Or W101, for example, has required Shoot-'em-up and boxing (giant transforming mecha boxing!) segments. But the segments are far apart, and the different ones are modelled on different styles of Shoot-'em-ups. So W101 is still a Beat-'em-up because that's the primary gameplay.

 

[staindgrey]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here and I'm also gonna have to ask you to look right above your post. The Argument is never dropped.

I wasn't arguing the point.

I was insulting his character and questioning the legitimacy of him even being here.

 

[oGr33n]

Man, why do we keep bringing this thread back??
It probably turns off a lot of visitors who come here!
At least change the OP to "How can we play with casuals constructively?" or something.

 

[DevaAshera]

No, even speedrunning 9.0 still has a 2-to-1 ratio of ground to flight, all things considered.
So Brawl is a Platformer? Or W101, for example, has required Shoot-'em-up and boxing (giant transforming mecha boxing!) segments. But the segments are far apart, and the different ones are modelled on different styles of Shoot-'em-ups. So W101 is still a Beat-'em-up because that's the primary gameplay.

Okay..done with this argument after this, since its quite apparent you won't change your mind and this is quite off topic, but the On Rails parts are not exactly few and far between but every single chapter.

And yes, Super Smash Bros, in general, are quite inspired by Platformers, particularly the Kirby series, like I've said, I consider them to be Platform-Fighters.

 

[cmvnb3]

I wasn't arguing the point.

I was insulting his character and questioning the legitimacy of him even being here.

I'm not one of those people that read past the moment I realize it's a post about the fighting/party game argument. Not interested in that.

 

[Robertzombie2]

if you see a casual then wreck them and move on to the next match, don't worry about hate message spam since nintendo handhelds/consoles have a terrible messaging system they just won't bother

 

[Luigi160]

Just use the Smashboards Arena. That way you can avoid the problems and constraints of For Fun/Glory.

 

[Xigger]

Why is this thread still open, it was argument fuel from the start. I mean, seriously. The title is "how are we going to deal with the casuals"
Where the mods at?

They don't ALWAYS magically come on their own. You could make a report and let them know.

Or you could say that the moderators don't want to close this thread. Maybe it's a "productive thread with value in its discussions."

 

[Moldy Clay]

Wouldn't the simple answer be 'fighting party game'?

It's both. Stop pretending it's one or the other. It has elements fo competitive fighting, and elements of 4 player party games.

People play it 1-on-1 for competition.
People pull it out at parties and play free-for-all.
Neither is wrong, neither is 'the only right answer' and neither are the main audience the games have ever been solely directed towards.

If you want to simplify it to its core, then just call it an 'action' game if you MUST have only ONE genre.

But the fact is, it was always designed to be both a party game AND a fighting game. Arguing about which one it is is just arguing for the sake of doing so.

 

[cmvnb3]

I still don't get this whole thread topic. Is this really about the extreme sensitivity people have towards what a child might say to you after an online game? Why not organize and tell Sakurai to give you an adults-only online group if you need to flee from the horror of children so badly? Worth a shot to try, right? Otherwise close the thread because it keeps getting hijacked by that fighting/party game never-ending debate.