Hookshot/Grapple Beam/Snake-Cancel - New technique

[Yuna]

This was already mentioned by someone else and it's called the Quick Whip Cancel I'll find the thread.

Yeah, you see, none of the characters who can do it has a whip. You could argue that Samus' is a whip, but it's called the Grapple Beam. "Quick" also makes no sense as none of the cancels before had the word "Quick" in it and neither does the cancel make the attack come out faster. The cancel just cancels the lag (+ the rest of the animation itself).

 

[Milos]

it comes out quick, functions as a whip and cancels all lag. that name is good just deal with it.

 

[Yuna]

it comes out quick, functions as a whip and cancels all lag. that name is good just deal with it.

1) It does not "come out quick". The cancel itself does not make the hookshot/grapple beam come out faster than normal.
2) The hookshot and grapple beam as quite slow. Let's see... most aerials (most nairs, bairs and fairs) come out with a startup animation of 3-6 frames. A lot of grabs come out with a startup animation of 4-7 frames. The hookshot and grapple beam have a startup animation of approximately 14 frames IIRC. They have a startup animation of at least 10 frames. As such, the Hookshot and Grapple beams are in no way "quick".
3) They aren't whips. They do not look like whips. The only one that even slightly resembles a whip is Samus' Grapple Beam but why name it after hers when the three other characters' tethers don't even slightly resemble whips (a snake and hookshots)? A better name would be Quick Hookshot Cancel because at least then 2 characters would have tethers to which the names apply literally.
4) Just because you or 3 other people said "Let's name it this" doesn't mean you're right. A consensus has to be reached. I mean, how good would you feel if some random guy had found out about L-Cancel before anyone else and named it "Gay Sex Cancel"? I mean, he discovered it first! He has naming dibs, right?

 

[TiersAreReal]

The difference between float canceling and "tether canceling" is float canceling actually allowed you to use a decent attack while this "technique" allows you to...throw a hookshot in mid-air at your opponent. This really isn't worthy of a name or even being a technique unless you can do something with it besides jab the person with your character's tether move in mid-air. I haven't seen a mid-air tether used as an attack in any video, but I don't think I'd be wrong in assuming they are wholly worthless in terms of damage and knockback.

So what exactly does this benefit us in order to be a technique? All it is is a move that NATURALLY ends its lag upon hitting the ground. You're not doing anything special to cause it to happen. The "technique" aspect would come into play IF you can do something with this. Where are the applications? What can we do with it?

What's the application with Lucas if his snake has no hitbox but we can "cancel it into anything?" Essentially we are doing a move that does nothing to do a move that does something, but only by landing t cancel the useless move. That doesn't even sound useful. This *is* useful if you accidentally do a tether in mid-air and not want to get punished, but I can count the number of times I've accidentally tethered in Melee on one hand with no fingers. This doesn't even have much of an application in faking out an opponent either.

Bottom line: where is the application for this? It's just that they changed the moves to naturally have no lag. Without a solid application, it isn't useful and doesn't warrant being called a technique.

 

[Yuna]

The difference between float canceling and "tether canceling" is float canceling actually allowed you to use a decent attack while this "technique" allows you to...throw a hookshot in mid-air at your opponent. This really isn't worthy of a name or even being a technique unless you can do something with it besides jab the person with your character's tether move in mid-air. I haven't seen a mid-air tether used as an attack in any video, but I don't think I'd be wrong in assuming they are wholly worthless in terms of damage and knockback.

So a cancel is only a cancel if it cancels something good now? It's not just a cancel if it cancels the lag of a move to allow you to follow up?

The Tether Cancel has been used to Hookshot to grab. The move has such a large range it cannot possibly be shieldgrabbed and you can follow it up on hit with a grab or something else (jab/smash/tilt).

Damage is 4-6%, but the important thing is what happens on hit. The knockback is too small for them to DI away from a mixup of jab/tilt/smash/grab.

T So what exactly does this benefit us in order to be a technique? All it is is a move that NATURALLY ends its lag upon hitting the ground. You're not doing anything special to cause it to happen. The "technique" aspect would come into play IF you can do something with this. Where are the applications? What can we do with it?

The "special" thing you're doing is landing during it, just like with float-canceling? Or is float-canceling so much fancier because you've gotta, gasp, float?

Applications, schmaplications, as long as it's something special, it needs a name. Or should we call it "Land while doing a Z-tether" when talking about it? I mean, the Vidjo-cancel and Vidjo-drop are wholly not really that useful but no one batted an eye when we named them.

TWhat's the application with Lucas if his snake has no hitbox but we can "cancel it into anything?" Essentially we are doing a move that does nothing to do a move that does something, but only by landing t cancel the useless move. That doesn't even sound useful. This *is* useful if you accidentally do a tether in mid-air and not want to get punished, but I can count the number of times I've accidentally tethered in Melee on one hand with no fingers. This doesn't even have much of an application in faking out an opponent either.

Lucas' is useless. Link's, Toon Link's and Samus' are not.

T Bottom line: where is the application for this? It's just that they changed the moves to naturally have no lag. Without a solid application, it isn't useful and doesn't warrant being called a technique.

Since when has the definition of a technique rested on whether or not it had a solid application? Don't rewrite the rules just because it fits your position.

This is not in any way a groundbreaking technique. I used "broken" as a joke in the opening post. This isn't in any way a technique that's hard to do (I mean, how hard is it to fast fall or Dash Cancel?). It's, however, something that's part of the game that cancels lag and that gives out a special advantage (see Tether Cancel to Grab... even if they dodge the grab, you still have the choice to mixup with a jab, tilt, smash or just wait for the dodge and then punish).

It's almost identical to the Float Cancel, only the Float Cancel required the extra requirement of floating first.

We have tons of Melee techniques that are restricted to certain characters, aren't all that useful or applicable and that don't really require you to do much to implement it. Yes, it's a natural part of the game, but so was L-cancel. You just needed to press a button to do it.

But then why did we have a name for Short Hop Laser or Missile Canceling? I mean, all you have to do is land while Missiling. Saying "This isn't a technique, it doesn't deserve a name!" is the same as disqualifying Missile Canceling as a technique.

Therefore, we have presedence that state that we must name this technique and that it's as much a technique as Float Canceling and Missile Canceling ever was (or is, in the case of Missile Canceling).

 

[Twin_A]

Perhaps if you ran tests previously mentioned like seeing if it could apply shield/dodge rolling pressure and stun them enough to do a grab or another attack, it would be given the tether-cancel name. Basically to win this fight Yuna you have to show practical useful uses for this technique (yes i called it a technique).

my suggestion is maybe if they are trying to spot dodge or roll away you can hit them with it then chase. Or see if frames allow for you to hit the shield then land and grab them while they are still shielding.

 

[Yuna]

Perhaps if you ran tests previously mentioned like seeing if it could apply shield/dodge rolling pressure and stun them enough to do a grab or another attack, it would be given the tether-cancel name. Basically to win this fight Yuna you have to show practical useful uses for this technique (yes i called it a technique).

my suggestion is maybe if they are trying to spot dodge or roll away you can hit them with it then chase. Or see if frames allow for you to hit the shield then land and grab them while they are still shielding.

Practical use has never been a factor. We did name the Vidjo-drop/Vidjo-cancel and no one cared. I'm sure there are a lot of other cancels/techniques we named with limited use.

It does not stun them enough to guarantee a grab on shield (since the characters who can do this cancel also tether grab). It, however, stuns them enough if done close enough to the ground to prevent them from shieldgrabbing a jab. You can also roll away.

I'll test it all out come Thursday. Also, read my previous post. I just edited a lot of info into it.

What is clear, however, is that cancel adds depth to the game. It adds options to the characters involved. For one thing, it gives them another option than without it. For another, it does have applications on hit depending on how close to the opponent you are and if they're in the air when they get it.

Yes, it's very situational. Yes, the use is limited. But so are a lot of Melee techniques that nonetheless received names.

 

[Yeroc]

I'm with Phanna here, this just doesn't seem like something that really needs a name. You're not actually doing anything to make the game act any differently. Like, with Float Canceling, the stipulation was that when you landed from a float, you always landed normally, attacking or not. This is just doing a z-attack as you hit the ground, no different from doing any other air attack except with those you make sure you don't time it so it causes you to lag. Should we now call that the new L-canceling? I don't think so. It's a really good find, I'm not arguing that, but I don't think it's really so much of a technique or a deviation that it needs its own name.

 

[Yuna]

I'm with Phanna here, this just doesn't seem like something that really needs a name. You're not actually doing anything to make the game act any differently. Like, with Float Canceling, the stipulation was that when you landed from a float, you always landed normally, attacking or not. This is just doing a z-attack as you hit the ground, no different from doing any other air attack except with those you make sure you don't time it so it causes you to lag. Should we now call that the new L-canceling? I don't think so. It's a really good find, I'm not arguing that, but I don't think it's really so much of a technique or a deviation that it needs its own name.

Missile Cancel - Land during the animation and all lag is cancelled into the Normal Landing lag. Land before the hitbox (the missile) comes out and it doesn't come out at all.

Short Hop Blaser/Laser (or just canceling the Laser in general).

This is identical to the Tether Cancel. There, precedence.

 

[Yeroc]

lol, I totally skipped over that. :blush:

But on the other hand, all moves work that way now, more or less. *shrug*

 

[madog32]

I too seem to be a bit confused about the application of this...

With L-canceling, I was to understand that this was performed after the use of an aerial attack that would otherwise leave you with no other option but to fall to the ground and deal with the assigned lag with that move.

But with this tether-canceling, can it be used AFTER another aerial attack has already been executed? If so, then yes I believe it is a useful tactic, but if its only purpose is to whip someone across the face with minimal damage and no knockback, and leave you to fall to the ground with out landing lag as opposed to performing any other aerial attack and dealing with the small landing lag, I dont see why anyone would opt for this over a real aerial attack that will dish out much more damage and a knockback.

Again, it is useful information, but if it has to be used the way I believe it does, I don't see any advantage to it.

 

[Yuna]

lol, I totally skipped over that. :blush:

But on the other hand, all moves work that way now, more or less. *shrug*

Wait, what? What game have you been playing? No moves besides a select few work like that. Moves can sometimes still be autocancelled if you land before the hitbox still comes out (I think I've seen it a few times), but those are just A-aerials and won't work once the hitbox has come out.

The only moves that will automatically cancel into your normal landing animation are a select few, like Samus' missile and the Tether Cancels.

I too seem to be a bit confused about the application of this...

With L-canceling, I was to understand that this was performed after the use of an aerial attack that would otherwise leave you with no other option but to fall to the ground and deal with the assigned lag with that move.

But with this tether-canceling, can it be used AFTER another aerial attack has already been executed? If so, then yes I believe it is a useful tactic, but if its only purpose is to whip someone across the face with minimal damage and no knockback, and leave you to fall to the ground with out landing lag as opposed to performing any other aerial attack and dealing with the small landing lag, I dont see why anyone would opt for this over a real aerial attack that will dish out much more damage and a knockback.

Again, it is useful information, but if it has to be used the way I believe it does, I don't see any advantage to it.

You know what a shielded aerial gets you in this game (especially if you're Samus, Link or Toon Link)? A shieldgrab (or a shieldhopped nair/fair/bair). At least with this, you won't get shieldgrabbed (guaranteed).

Also, does it have to have a huge scope of applications for it to be named? I mean, since when was that ever a requirement?

 

[Yuna]

*the forum messed up*

 

[Milos]

1) It does not "come out quick". The cancel itself does not make the hookshot/grapple beam come out faster than normal.
2) The hookshot and grapple beam as quite slow. Let's see... most aerials (most nairs, bairs and fairs) come out with a startup animation of 3-6 frames. A lot of grabs come out with a startup animation of 4-7 frames. The hookshot and grapple beam have a startup animation of approximately 14 frames IIRC. They have a startup animation of at least 10 frames. As such, the Hookshot and Grapple beams are in no way "quick".
3) They aren't whips. They do not look like whips. The only one that even slightly resembles a whip is Samus' Grapple Beam but why name it after hers when the three other characters' tethers don't even slightly resemble whips (a snake and hookshots)? A better name would be Quick Hookshot Cancel because at least then 2 characters would have tethers to which the names apply literally.
4) Just because you or 3 other people said "Let's name it this" doesn't mean you're right. A consensus has to be reached. I mean, how good would you feel if some random guy had found out about L-Cancel before anyone else and named it "Gay Sex Cancel"? I mean, he discovered it first! He has naming dibs, right?

what are you homophobic!!?? INTOLERANCE VIABLE FOR BAN!!1

 

[Zek]

It works exactly the same as Float Canceling in Melee. It cancels the lag of the move you just made. Sound familiar? Yes, it's the same a Float Canceling.

In fact, it's the exact same thing as Float Canceling.

How to Float-cancel:
1) Float
2) Do an attack while floating
3) Land before the attack finishes.

What happens:
All landing lag from the aerial itself is removed, you instead go into your Neutral Landing Lag (like after landing after doing nothing), which in Melee was 4 frames.

How to Tether (Recovery) Cancel:
1) Jump
2) Do a Z-tether recovery move
3) Land before the move finishes.

What happens:
All landing lag from the tether recovery move is removed, you instead go into your Neutral Landing Lag (like after landing after doing nothing), which in Melee was 4 frames.

You see, Tether Recovery Cancel works exactly the same as Float Cancel in Melee. You do something in the air, you land while doing it (before the move finishes) and all landing lag is treated as if you just landed from doing nothing.

Thus, it needs a name, just like Float Cancel. Tether Recovery Cancel or Tether Cancel has been voted forth, but this could be a bit misleading as Zamus and Olimar can't do it. So I'd prefer for it to be called Z Tether Recovery Cancel or Z Tether Cancel (ZTRC/ZTC).

Are you serious? Float Cancel is a "cancel" because it reduces the existing lag of any attack. This, on the other hand, is simply an observation that the mid-air tether attack does not have any lag. There's no technique. "If you land while using a tether attack, you'll have zero lag, because tether attacks don't have any lag." No, really?

What next, are we going to call it the "Air Cancel" when you finish a move before landing to cancel the landing lag?

 

[Tristan_win]

****, I was kind of wishing this would work with Sheik chain but oh well...

I think a good name for this would be "Air Slap or Air Zap"

 

[Yuna]

what are you homophobic!!?? INTOLERANCE VIABLE FOR BAN!!1

Did you know, I'm gay.

Are you serious? Float Cancel is a "cancel" because it reduces the existing lag of any attack. This, on the other hand, is simply an observation that the mid-air tether attack does not have any lag. There's no technique. "If you land while using a tether attack, you'll have zero lag, because tether attacks don't have any lag." No, really?

What next, are we going to call it the "Air Cancel" when you finish a move before landing to cancel the landing lag?

Did you know, the same applies for Missile Cancelling and Laser canceling (a.k.a. SHL)? I mean, they have no landing lag either! You just land in your neutral landing animation after them. I guess those aren't cancels either!

 

[joepinion]

Applications, schmaplications, as long as it's something special, it needs a name. Or should we call it "Land while doing a Z-tether" when talking about it? I mean, the Vidjo-cancel and Vidjo-drop are wholly not really that useful but no one batted an eye when we named them.

This is where you're wrong. Technique names will catch on when people start using techniques to destroy other players AT TOURNAMENTS. Theoretically this could need a name but we haven't even seen a single video demonstrating its usefulness, let alone being used in a tournament.

If it never becomes useful in a tournament, you can name it all you want but no one will ever say it. It's called survival of the fittest, natural selection: The best techniques, in a harshly competitive environment like a tournament, will float to the top and spread so that everyone uses them. THEN there will be a name, and only then.

You can make up a name now but there are no promises of whether the technique will be popular or what it will be named if it is.

Stop trying to predict the meta-game and just let the meta-game play itself out.

 

[Yuna]

This is where you're wrong. Technique names will catch on when people start using techniques to destroy other players AT TOURNAMENTS. Theoretically this could need a name but we haven't even seen a single video demonstrating its usefulness, let alone being used in a tournament.

If it never becomes useful in a tournament, you can name it all you want but no one will ever say it. It's called survival of the fittest, natural selection: The best techniques, in a harshly competitive environment like a tournament, will float to the top and spread so that everyone uses them. THEN there will be a name, and only then.

You can make up a name now but there are no promises of whether the technique will be popular or what it will be named if it is.

Stop trying to predict the meta-game and just let the meta-game play itself out.

I present to you the Vidjo-cancel/Vidjo-drop (among other things). Peach-specific, highly limited in use and not really all that useful.

However, it does exist and was therefore named. Not many use it, but at least it's got a real name now.

A technique must not be a ground-breaking one or one with a lot of uses to be named. Why? Because we need names for techniques (if they indeed are techniques) so that we'll know what to call them in conversation.

What would you rather say when talking about Samus?

"And then he Short Hop Tether Cancelled to a shorthopped nair" or And then he Short Hopped a Grapple Beam, landed during it to cancel its lag and then shorthopped naired"?

 

[joepinion]

What do you mean "to cancel its lag"? Are you saying that if you jump in the air, send out a tether, let it finish, and then land, there's lag? I don't understand.

 

[Yuna]

What do you mean "to cancel its lag"? Are you saying that if you jump in the air, send out a tether, let it finish, and then land, there's lag? I don't understand.

You know when you Hookshot/Grapple Beam on the ground (or just far above the ground), how your character will send it out there and then not be able to do anything for a while while the beam/hookshot is retracted? That "lag" will disappear if you land at any time during the animation.

The animation itself will also be canceled, even before the hitbox comes out if it's still going on (that is, the animation during which the "attack" actually inflicts damage/knockback). This is the exact same deal as with Missile Canceling.

Another case-in-point of stuff with limited usage that nonetheless got names:
The Thunderjacket and the other techniques Ness could do in Melee after performing the Yo-Yo glitch.

 

[joepinion]

The YYG was VERY, very special. What it does almost defies comprehension, that's why it deserves a name. At the same time, no one thought for more then a few seconds that it would ever be useful in a serious tournament.

It is nice that you can Short hop Tether without lag on the ground (why not call it SHT?)... But I still think what we are getting here on SmashBoards is a case of life imitating art instead of the other way around.

All the terms the competitive scene uses came about because of the... you know... competitive scene. They spread because techniques are popular in tournaments, either for winning or showing off. They spread by way of the competitive scene, the community.

These boards exist to talk about and take part in the competitive scene. We observe what's going on and then we write about it. It does not work the other way around, that we find a technique, post it on these boards, name it, and then that technique is by definition part of the competitive scene.

I realize things are more complicated than that but we are way too far one the wrong end. Let the scene be the scene and enjoy it on these boards; don't try to draw the boundaries of the content of the scene with the boards. See what I mean?

 

[Yuna]

The YYG was VERY, very special. What it does almost defies comprehension, that's why it deserves a name. At the same time, no one thought for more then a few seconds that it would ever be useful in a serious tournament.

I'm not questioning naming the YYG. But why did we go and name the many different "jackets" Ness could get using the YYG (every single one got a name)?

 

[Goober]

Attention everyone doubting that this is a cancel as opposed to "game mechanics": it's the same concept as samus's missile canceling in melee. You end the useless/hitboxless part of an attack animation early by landing (and in this case suffer no lag afterwards).

Being stuck in a the useless part of animation is JUST AS BAD as landing lag, because just like landing lag, you're unable to react to anything you're opponent does. Your character is stuck doing something useless which you can not get out of in order to avoid attacks or move on to combo your opponent. For all intents and purposes hitboxless or otherwise useless parts of animations that follow an attack and are uninterruptible ARE lag. A technique that gets rid of this lag has in melee been called a cancel.

Observe:

-Falco and Fox's shines have a hitbox for the first frame, and afterwards are only useful for reflecting projectiles. So what do they do after the initial hitbox passes? Rather than sit there and wait for the shine animation to end on its own, they cancel it by hitting jump.

-After Falco fires a laser he goes through the animation of putting his blaster away. This is uninterruptible and leaves him open to attack. So what does he do? He short hop lasers, so that the ending of his laser animation is canceled by landing.

-After Samus fires a missile, she goes through an animation of pulling her blaster back much like falco and his laser. But the missile is already out right, why bother sitting through this animation and leaving yourself open? Oh, you don't, because you fire the missile right before landing and cancel that ending animation. And then you call it a missile cancel.

I realize Yuna has brought up all these points already, but apparently some people don't read/believe his posts.