Social Hideout of the Phantom Thieves - Joker Social

[Mellowy Yellow]

Hey, guys, comin' back at ya with the Hot Joker Intel™.

Spoiler

There is another reference to "Jack" that I feel should be mentioned: "/Jack6_C06_v01_070925.mb_Jane1_pony_hairSystemShape2.mchp"". @jam1garner was the first to notice it in the string dump. I've seen some interesting theories about what "Jane" could refer to relative to Joker.

— Dr. HyperCake (@DrHyperCake) February 22, 2019

The same dude who found out Joker's stage is Mementos found a new interesting string of code in Joker's files. It's got a filename associated with costumes, makes reference to someone or something called "Jane", and seems to be the model bones for a ponytail.

Oh my god....... those madmen are gonna actually do it aren't they

 

[Teeb147]

I'm all for the new joker intel

Also, maybe the thread poll will have to be updated XD

 

[EarlTamm]

I'm all for the new joker intel

Also, maybe the thread poll will have to be updated XD

Yeah...

Spoiler: Joker Spoilers

We will need to make a best boy poll! Yusuke, it's you time to shine!

 

[Mellowy Yellow]

I'm all for the new joker intel

Also, maybe the thread poll will have to be updated XD

Spoiler

I will still support my baby girl no matter what still

 

[Teeb147]

It's definitely not a possibility i was expecting. Rly gonna be glad about it if true.

Also, just to ask, what about it makes people use spoilers for?

 

[EarlTamm]

Guys, I just realized something horrifying.

Spoiler: Joker Spoilers

So, Joker will have 8 alts. Like past examples, we are to assume that the MC and FeMC are to be evenly split when it comes to alts. 4 for the MC and 4 for the FeMC. 1 alt on both sides will be there base look, leaving 3 left on both side. If we are to assume that the other alts will be based on the other Phantom Thieves, then we reach our problem.
MC alts: 1.Base 2.Morgana 3.Ryuji 4.Yusuke 5.Akechi
FeMC: 1.Base 2.Ann 3.Makoto 4.Futaba 5.Haru

You see out problem? On both sides, someone gets left behind.

It's definitely not a possibility i was expecting. Rly gonna be glad about it if true.

Also, just to ask, what about it makes people use spoilers for?

Because it is courteous just to give people the opportunity to avert their eyes.

 

[Teeb147]

Guys, I just realized something horrifying.

Spoiler: Joker Spoilers

So, Joker will have 8 alts. Like past examples, we are to assume that the MC and FeMC are to be evenly split when it comes to alts. 4 for the MC and 4 for the FeMC. 1 alt on both sides will be there base look, leaving 3 left on both side. If we are to assume that the other alts will be based on the other Phantom Thieves, then we reach our problem.
MC alts: 1.Base 2.Morgana 3.Ryuji 4.Yusuke 5.Akechi
FeMC: 1.Base 2.Ann 3.Makoto 4.Futaba 5.Haru

You see out problem? On both sides, someone gets left behind.

Because it is courteous just to give people the opportunity to avert their eyes.

Avert their eyes from what tho? (can use spoilers if you want to answer)

Spoiler

I would think the idea of a fem joker for p5r would be news anyone would enjoy
No story spoilers or anything

 

[EarlTamm]

Avert their eyes from what tho? (can use spoilers if you want to answer)

Spoiler

I would think the idea of a fem joker for p5r would be news anyone would enjoy
No story spoilers or anything

Well that's the thing, they can look if they want. It's not auper hidden, it's just for those who want to avoid ruining any potential surprises.

 

[Teeb147]

Well that's the thing, they can look if they want. It's not auper hidden, it's just for those who want to avoid ruining any potential surprises.

Eh. I get it but considering how everyone has been talking about the leaks for characters and stages, and this just has to do with a possible alt, I dont see the need to.

Spoiler

Keeping it going, and just about the character alts you mentioned before and the 'problem', I feel like we wouldn't get all the character recognitions anyway. Looking at other 3rd party and dlc characters, we dont get all that much, maybe one once in a while, like jeanne bayonetta. We can count ourselves lucky to get more than one reference to another character. If anything a fem alt gives more reason to have some refs for another girl. maybe one for the guys. dunno just guessing

 

[amageish]

Hey, guys, comin' back at ya with the Hot Joker Intel™.

Spoiler

There is another reference to "Jack" that I feel should be mentioned: "/Jack6_C06_v01_070925.mb_Jane1_pony_hairSystemShape2.mchp"". @jam1garner was the first to notice it in the string dump. I've seen some interesting theories about what "Jane" could refer to relative to Joker.

— Dr. HyperCake (@DrHyperCake) February 22, 2019

The same dude who found out Joker's stage is Mementos found a new interesting string of code in Joker's files. It's got a filename associated with costumes, makes reference to someone or something called "Jane", and seems to be the model bones for a ponytail.

Spoiler

HOLY MOLY MY CRAZY "WE HAVEN'T SEEN JOKER BECAUSE A FeMC IS COMING IN P5R" CONSPIRACY IS MAYBE TRUE

This would be a good thing IMHO.

 

[Mellowy Yellow]

So...

Spoiler

We'll get to finally romance our beloved Exam failing boi if we end up getting FeMC?

 

[Teeb147]

About hair:

Spoiler

That it says something like ponytail in the data makes me think that the fem joker can have one, but maybe not as a default. like costume 6 would be with it.

 

[EarlTamm]

About hair:

Spoiler

That it says something like ponytail in the data makes me think that the fem joker can have one, but maybe not as a default. like costume 6 would be with it.

Spoiler

Doubt it. I think the ponytail will always be a part of the design. It's not like you can change your hair in Persona(Unless you are in the dancing games).

 

[Teeb147]

Spoiler

Doubt it. I think the ponytail will always be a part of the design. It's not like you can change your hair in Persona(Unless you are in the dancing games).

I think it will be an option, because there'd be no reason to name it in the files if it's the default.

 

[EarlTamm]

I think it will be an option, because there'd be no reason to name it in the files if it's the default.

Unless it has it's own physics you need to account for on the model. That is probably why it is noted.

 

[Hinata]

I think it will be an option, because there'd be no reason to name it in the files if it's the default.

There would be a reason to name it in the files, considering

Spoiler

Joker does not usually have a ponytail. They needed to add the costume filename to the string because male Joker doesn't need to use it, so if you use one of the male costumes, the game won't call up the extra ponytail bone.

 

[StormC]

If this is true, I would be curious to see how they tackle the challenges of

Spoiler

having a female protagonist in this game that I brought up before.

It would definitely give me incentive to double dip on P5R... so I pray that means it's coming to Switch.

 

[Teeb147]

Unless it has it's own physics you need to account for on the model. That is probably why it is noted.

Spoiler: hair files?

"Jack6_C06_v01_070925.mb_Jane1_pony_hairSystemShape2.mchp "

You could be right, it's just that it specifically says for costume 6 (C06). It could be that it's the only one that was in the string dumps or whatever, but I'm thinking it was specified because that one has different physics for the ponytail, dunno just speculating.

 

[amageish]

Spoiler: hair files?

"Jack6_C06_v01_070925.mb_Jane1_pony_hairSystemShape2.mchp "

You could be right, it's just that it specifically says for costume 6 (C06). It could be that it's the only one that was in the string dumps or whatever, but I'm thinking it was specified because that one has different physics for the ponytail, dunno just speculating.

Spoiler

Do we know why it's costume six? As people involved with modding tell me that it starts with 0, so that the 6th costume would be an even number. If we assume it'd be like Robin/Corrin/Inkling, then 6 should be male...

If this is true, I would be curious to see how they tackle the challenges of

Spoiler

having a female protagonist in this game that I brought up before.

It would definitely give me incentive to double dip on P5R... so I pray that means it's coming to Switch.

Spoiler

I trust Azusa could handle it... She rewrote quire a bit of P3P. The question is how they could afford to change everything with higher quality graphics.

 

[Hinata]

Spoiler

Do we know why it's costume six? As people involved with modding tell me that it starts with 0, so that the 6th costume would be an even number. If we assume it'd be like Robin/Corrin/Inkling, then 6 should be male...

c00, c01, c02, c03: male
c04, c05, c06, c07: female

 

[amageish]

c00, c01, c02, c03: male
c04, c05, c06, c07: female

Spoiler

Is that how the code usually works, even when characters like Corrin alternate male-female from our PoV?

Again, I don't know anything about coding... I'm just parroting what others told me...

 

[Hinata]

Spoiler

Is that how the code usually works, even when characters like Corrin alternate male-female from our PoV?

Again, I don't know anything about coding... I'm just parroting what others told me...

Nah, that's not usually how it works, but based on the coding for Joker's costumes, I imagine that's how it'll work here.

If this is true, I would be curious to see how they tackle the challenges of

Spoiler

having a female protagonist in this game that I brought up before.

It would definitely give me incentive to double dip on P5R... so I pray that means it's coming to Switch.

What challenges did you bring up earlier? I don't remember seeing a post about it.

 

[Teeb147]

Spoiler

Is that how the code usually works, even when characters like Corrin alternate male-female from our PoV?

Again, I don't know anything about coding... I'm just parroting what others told me...

I assumed it started with 01. So, I actually dont know. But..

Spoiler

Since there's a ponytail here, I'm going to assume there's something a little different about the costumes. That or the string was deleted because it had the wrong costume number

 

[StormC]

What challenges did you bring up earlier? I don't remember seeing a post about it.

Spoiler

Logistically a P5R female protag might be difficult. I wouldn't be against it at all if they did it, but P3P was able to do it partially because they simplified the game's presentation to a visual novel outside of dungeons and stripped away animated cutscenes. Persona 5 has about an hour of animated cutscenes that they would have to completely redo, and then account for other things - namely the fact that I don't imagine culturally, most of the characters would react the same way to a female character with a criminal record and rumors of violence. The opening prologue scene alone where Joker is subject to violence and intimidation - you know which one - would play completely differently with a female protagonist.

Don't get me wrong, if they can do it, great, but the game would have to be massively reworked, I think, or else it might come off awkward.

There's also other things I didn't mention in this write-up, like interactions with characters such as Kamoshida and Becky (although I think those would be minor rewrites). But to actually redo the in-game cutscenes with a new character would not be trivial either; you couldn't just slap a new character model over Joker and call it a day, those scenes would have to be actually reanimated with the in-game engine (something P3P was able to largely avoid thanks to the simplified presentation).

tl;dr, it would not be cheap, and would probably inflate the game's budget to something closer to a new release than an updated rerelease.

 

[amageish]

Nah, that's not usually how it works, but based on the coding for Joker's costumes, I imagine that's how it'll work here.

Ah. Okay.

I assumed it started with 01. So, I actually dont know. But..

Spoiler

Since there's a ponytail here, I'm going to assume there's something a little different about the costumes. That or the string was deleted because it had the wrong costume number

I also assumed that before talking to other people Also true!

 

[Hinata]

There's also other things I didn't mention in this write-up, like interactions with characters such as Kamoshida and Becky (although I think those would be minor rewrites). But to actually redo the in-game cutscenes with a new character would not be trivial either; you couldn't just slap a new character model over Joker and call it a day, those scenes would have to be actually reanimated with the in-game engine (something P3P was able to largely avoid thanks to the simplified presentation).

tl;dr, it would not be cheap, and would probably inflate the game's budget to something closer to a new release than an updated rerelease.

Me and my friend were talkin about this, actually, and he said he imagined P5 made a hell of a lot of money, so they could probably afford to rework cutscenes and stuff.

I mean, I'm sure it'd still be a MASSIVE undertaking, but I think they could at least afford to do it.

 

[Teeb147]

There's also other things I didn't mention in this write-up, like interactions with characters such as Kamoshida and Becky (although I think those would be minor rewrites). But to actually redo the in-game cutscenes with a new character would not be trivial either; you couldn't just slap a new character model over Joker and call it a day, those scenes would have to be actually reanimated with the in-game engine (something P3P was able to largely avoid thanks to the simplified presentation).

I dont think it's an issue.
I also dont think it'll take that much to make it work, including for animations. There's lots of animators in japan
just imo tho

 

[amageish]

Me and my friend were talkin about this, actually, and he said he imagined P5 made a hell of a lot of money, so they could probably afford to rework cutscenes and stuff.

I mean, I'm sure it'd still be a MASSIVE undertaking, but I think they could at least afford to do it.

Yeah, I agree. It's also wroth noting ATLUS is at its record high with number of employees right now.

It'd be insane, but still possible.

 

[Teeb147]

Yeah, I agree. It's also wroth noting ATLUS is at its record high with number of employees right now.

It'd be insane, but still possible.

I dont think it'd be as intensive as some people think. Especially depending on what kind of character it is.
We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[StormC]

I dont think it's an issue.
I also dont think it'll take that much to make it work, including for animations. There's lots of animators in japan
just imo tho

A 100 hour game being heavily rewritten and reanimated is not trivial by any means. Having a lot of animators doesn't mean anything when you are talking about budget, scheduling, resources, etc. A scene doesn't get necessarily get made faster or cheaper by throwing more animators at it.

Me and my friend were talkin about this, actually, and he said he imagined P5 made a hell of a lot of money, so they could probably afford to rework cutscenes and stuff.

I mean, I'm sure it'd still be a MASSIVE undertaking, but I think they could at least afford to do it.

I think the main reason they would do it is to incentivize people to double dip. Being able to advertise a "brand new storyline" in addition to the normal one would get a lot of people on board, especially if it's on Switch as well as PS4.

 

[Hinata]

I think the main reason they would do it is to incentivize people to double dip. Being able to advertise a "brand new storyline" in addition to the normal one would get a lot of people on board, especially if it's on Switch as well as PS4.

Yeah, I'd imagine that's a big factor behind their decision to make this sort of thing happen, even though we all know all P5 fans would gladly double dip for P5 on Switch even if all they added was a single new line of text.

 

[Teeb147]

A 100 hour game being heavily rewritten and reanimated is not trivial by any means. Having a lot of animators doesn't mean anything when you are talking about budget, scheduling, resources, etc. A scene doesn't get necessarily get made faster or cheaper by throwing more animators at it.

That's just for the animations (about the animators).
It depends how the character is, and how much they need to change. Maybe they dont need to change as much as you think. They do need to add some stuff, obviously, but most of the changes arent going to be that intensive.

 

[Hinata]

That's just for the animations (about the animators).
It depends how the character is, and how much they need to change. Maybe they dont need to change as much as you think. They do need to add some stuff, obviously, but most of the changes arent going to be that intensive.

To quote a post on Reddit:

Spoiler

>Entire new relationship bonding arcs that have to be developed


>EXTRA characters to have the opportunity to romance because there's so many women around that there needs to be just as many men (THAT AREN'T OLDER THAN 18 BECAUSE EVERYONE FORGETS JOKER IS 15-17, WHICH SEVERELY LIMITS THE KIND OF PEOPLE FEMJOKER CAN ROMANCE COMPARED TO JOKER GETTIN' ******* 9 YEARS OLDER THAN HIM. NEITHER ARE OK BY THE WAY)


>Revamping overall plentiful of story scenes to fit relationships (Ryuji hitting on women namely)


>Thousands of lines having to be re-recorded/dubbed


>Anime scenes that have to be remade


>New character model and animations to not only support the main game itself but even the menu's


>Most likely a needed revamp of the branding of the game to include FemJoker





I totally get why this can be seen as a lot.

 

[Teeb147]

To quote a post on Reddit:

Spoiler

>Entire new relationship bonding arcs that have to be developed


>EXTRA characters to have the opportunity to romance because there's so many women around that there needs to be just as many men (THAT AREN'T OLDER THAN 18 BECAUSE EVERYONE FORGETS JOKER IS 15-17, WHICH SEVERELY LIMITS THE KIND OF PEOPLE FEMJOKER CAN ROMANCE COMPARED TO JOKER GETTIN' ******* 9 YEARS OLDER THAN HIM. NEITHER ARE OK BY THE WAY)


>Revamping overall plentiful of story scenes to fit relationships (Ryuji hitting on women namely)


>Thousands of lines having to be re-recorded/dubbed


>Anime scenes that have to be remade


>New character model and animations to not only support the main game itself but even the menu's


>Most likely a needed revamp of the branding of the game to include FemJoker





I totally get why this can be seen as a lot.

And now how much of that is going to be that much more than persona 3? That's what im wondering.

 

[StormC]

That's just for the animations (about the animators).
It depends how the character is, and how much they need to change. Maybe they dont need to change as much as you think. They do need to add some stuff, obviously, but most of the changes arent going to be that intensive.

A new character model means the animations have to be redone from scratch. They can't be copy pasted. You are dealing with rescripting character animations in every single scene. That is, again, not trivial.

And now how much of that is going to be that much more than persona 3? That's what im wondering.

A lot more considering half of Persona 3 Portable was in visual novel format, and P5 is a significantly longer game.

 

[Hinata]

And now how much of that is going to be that much more than persona 3? That's what im wondering.

P3P was presented way differently from the original P3. You couldn't move your own character model over the map anymore unless you were in Tartarus. Outside of that, you interacted with the world through moving a cursor around a still image and interacting with people that way like a point and click game. P3P also did not have anime cutscenes that would need to be remade basically from scratch to include the female protag like P5 would.

 

[Teeb147]

A new character model means the animations have to be redone from scratch. They can't be copy pasted. You are dealing with rescripting character animations in every single scene. That is, again, not trivial.



A lot more considering half of Persona 3 was in visual novel format, and P5 is a significantly longer game.

They know their way around the engine and all, im not worried. Animations arent always created in every scene, there's lots that re-used or just tuned, in quite a few ways. And again it depends on the type of character it is. What if the personality is even closer to original joker? Scripting and text isn't a big deal. Dubbing might take more resources. (well, maybe not that much, now that i think about it, but anyway)

Again, im not worried about it.

 

[amageish]

And now how much of that is going to be that much more than persona 3? That's what im wondering.

Most of it? P3P didn't have animated cutscenes and, while it added a lot of extra characters, it mostly was replacing NPCs with romancable party members (as you couldn't befriend your male party members in vanilla P3). For P5, you'd have to write wholly-original new arcs for new characters. The P5 menus have Joker moving around throughout them, which wasn't a thing for P3P.

The FeMC could be made to be less unique then the P3 one (the FeMC in P3 is much more emotional then P3 male MC). They also could, if they wanted, make her have a metric craptonne of female-female romantic relationships if they didn't want to have to rewrite/replace the male ones. But they'd still have to rewrite the story in somewhat major ways, because the game is still about rebelling against Japanese norms, and Japanese norms are heavily gendered. Moreover, if they were to have it be a somewhat shallow swap, then people would probably be less excited about it.

Like, I still think it may happen, but it would be an insanely big undertaking.

 

[Teeb147]

Most of it? P3P didn't have animated cutscenes and, while it added a lot of extra characters, it mostly was replacing NPCs with romancable party members (as you couldn't befriend your male party members in vanilla P3). For P5, you'd have to write wholly-original new arcs for new characters. The P5 menus have Joker moving around throughout them, which wasn't a thing for P3P.

The FeMC could be made to be less unique then the P3 one (the FeMC in P3 is much more emotional then P3 male MC). They also could, if they wanted, make her have a metric craptonne of female-female romantic relationships if they didn't want to have to rewrite/replace the male ones. But they'd still have to rewrite the story in somewhat major ways, because the game is still about rebelling against Japanese norms, and Japanese norms are heavily gendered. Moreover, if they were to have it be a somewhat shallow swap, then people would probably be less excited about it.

Like, I still think it may happen, but it would be an insanely big undertaking.

Thanks for listing some.
I think youre exagerating the gender aspect of rebellion, especially for a game. but let's see what they end up doing. Not that im 100% convinced about the character, but i think it's a pretty safe conclusion that there'll be one. I dont really feel like debating more, and i'll just stick with the same stance anyway.

 

[BZL8]

Watch as the FeMC makes her reveal debut in Smash Ultimate before P5R. It would be "Marth Debuted in Smash Bros." all over again!