Hidden Gameplay Tweak in Hidden Footage? (First Post Slightly Refined)

[pikachun00b7]

YAYYY! edge-hogging become funner!

 

[Rhyme]

Well, that's following the assumption that if wavedashing is removed in the transition from SSBM to SSBB that SSBB will be SSBM without wavedashing and no compensation or other additions that may make it a unique game in terms of hardcore play.

Uum...righ-wait...no...uuh...yeah.

 

[KidSmash]

hmmm, i saw some Foxs airforward on Zsamus at the castletop scene

 

[Falco&Victory]

About WDing, SSBB has the same engine as SSBM, meaning that to remove WDing it would require more animations(AKA UBER TEIM LOLZ1!!111!!@), several events scripts, and we know WDing was probably discovered by developers for 1 simple reason:WD off a platform with Luigi when your sheild is still up. This means traction is a gameplay element, and if WDing was not discovered, you would probably get an error. Java for gaming rulz!(self taught ftw!)

 

[Chepe]

Ooh, I like. Hopefully there are no rolls as bad as Game & Watch and Samus' anymore...

And you know, a lot of people seem to think that this is removing some skill, but think about it. Imagine teching toward an edge and immediately jumping back as you roll off and attacking back in less than a second... I can see some good skill involved with reflexes like that!

 

[Cisne]

Ooh, I like. Hopefully there are no rolls as bad as Game & Watch and Samus' anymore..

eh... moving that extremely fast with samus using her roll....is wierd.
bowser would look weird too if he rolled that fast.

 

[Eggm]

Was it a tech roll because she got hit or just a regular roll? Because in SSBM you can tech roll to an edge grab..

 

[Keitaro]

Someone said it would make it hard to tech-chase but Pikachu didn't exactly roll on an edge. He rolled off a platform and landed on an edge. Maybe that platform on that stage can be rolled off "especially since it can't be edge grabbed" but the part Pikachu actually grabbed on can't be rolled off. I dunno.

 

[Malificent]

The gameplay in general seems alot faster to me. I dont know why, but after I watched the video, I went and played SSBM, to test some stuff see if I could find any other differences, but I seemed to be moving, what seemed to me, kind of slow. When usually it seems alot faster. And when you look at it, it almost seems as if pikachu rolls as soon as he hits the ground. Kind of weird.

 

[BrTarolg]

i think its a pretty good move to make it so that rolls allow you to instantly grab the edge.

not only does it make edgehogging more viable <and more useful for the average player> - but it severely reduces the effectiveness of horrible edge techasing, so that you stand more of a chance when knocked down near the edge.

 

[Chepe]

Was it a tech roll because she got hit or just a regular roll? Because in SSBM you can tech roll to an edge grab..

Regular roll from lying on the ground after impact. What you say is true about tech rolling onto an edge being possible in Melee (because of momentum from damage), but there is one key difference between that and what Pikachu achieved here. In Melee, it waited for you to get up before the momentum sent you off the edge, causing you to roll in place in the edge about a split second while it acknowledges that you are standing up. In the scene shown, Pikachu rolls to the edge but immediately upon reaching it, he falls off it and is airborne. It is very noticeable...

Oh, and as someone already said, Meta Knight did indeed tech roll off the edge in the last part of the second trailer just by landing on it. I used to think he dashed off the edge, but upon closer inspection, Meta Knight dashes with his wings spread open (as seen when he dash attacks Wario), while the way he moves off the edge has him rolling with his cape still around him...

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

The gameplay in general seems alot faster to me. I dont know why, but after I watched the video, I went and played SSBM, to test some stuff see if I could find any other differences, but I seemed to be moving, what seemed to me, kind of slow. When usually it seems alot faster. And when you look at it, it almost seems as if pikachu rolls as soon as he hits the ground. Kind of weird.

Huh. Slightly changing the subject, this gives me an idea. Maybe less landing lag is one of the ways Sakurai intends to improve aerial combat!

 

[demigodxzero@yahoo.com]

^ ^ ^

its possible that you can determine whether or not u roll off the edge when u roll. like holding left/right will continue off the ledge, whereas moving the joystick down during the roll will make the character drop down and grab the ledge.

or maybe this whole 'roll off the edge' thing was just to tease overanalyzers like....certain people.... and the final game will have no such thing. dont be surprised if the final product is different from the vids

 

[Samochan]

Mmmmmm, tasty footage...

From what I could collect, the last stage shown, the big castle, seemed to also have some fireballs bouncing all over the place. O.o It couldn't be the characters, since it definitely seemed no one shot them and they seemed to come also from both background and front. o_o Kirby's bair also seemed to have a huge collision explosion, lol. Now I'm being quite sure that Kirby's getting some extra knockback for his hits, his usmash, fair and now bair all seemed to have extra oomph. Also when I look at his jump... holy ****, he seems actually floathy!!! He jumps once, pumps up, indicating he's using his second jump and he's like, still using the momentum of his first jump and jumps quite high, very fast. O_O He jumps like falco's both jumps height. No decrease of height in any part, only after he has connected with the bair he starts to lose some altitude. The range with the bair seems to be the same. And lol at kirby walking on the same height as pika is crawling.

Go Kirby! ^o^

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Kirby's getting that much needed upgrade, now what of Pikachu and Ness?

Though they're probably working on some kickass explosion effects.

 

[demigodxzero@yahoo.com]

i think pichu was intended to be a "kickass upgrade" for pikachu....

so much for that

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Pichu was not intended to be an upgrade for Pikachu,
Pichu from the start was intended to be a space filler/joke character.

 

[rsc_390]

To start, this thread is amazing OP (forgot your name). What you found and the Metaknight thing has really got me pumped up.

------------------------------------------------------

Fine, not Any, just wavedashing, wavelanding, wavehsielding, and waveshining then. I still don't approve.

Look man, I love wavedashing too. But I have no problem with them removing it. Why? Think about why you like wavedashing in the first place.

Wavedashing is fun because it changes the gameplay for many characters in a positive way, and adds new cool combo potential. Basically, it ADDS to the game. However, there are some bad things about wavedashing. One, it creates some broken advantages. Even more significant than that, it leaves out a lot of people whose fingers just cannot or do not enjoy performing the motion. I'm sure there are people who have forced themselves into discomfort just to stay competetive! No game should make someone do this.

Now, think about Sakurai for a moment. He undoubtedly has learned about Wavedashing by now. In this brief clip showed to us in the 2007 nintendo video, we have a glimpse into his mind. This could be his critique on the wavedash. Like you were saying, wavedashing has many uses, and he likely won't compensate for all of them. BUT, I trust him. He will probably keep all the things he was impressed with, like for example WDing backwards into an edgehog, and throw out the things that he feels are broken, like waveshining. You have to remember that Sakurai + the developers don't want to deprive people with making such a versatile technique so difficult. Everyone can roll!

The only problem is that in the process of losing wavedashing, we're going to lose some great mindgame potential. Luckily, conidering the additional moves, characters, and mechanics in this game, we should be more than compensated in the mindgame department ^_^

---------------------------------------------

Although I was wondering...We got lucky with wavedashing, what if the next exploitation of the games inner mechanics leads to a result much more powerful and gamebreaking? This could ruin the game for many people.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

I don't believe they have removed wavedashing - look at the nintendo world video where Fox is unveiled. After the close-up scenes there is a short battle scene. Right after Fox drops from the platform, but before he dash attacks he crouches, then wavedashes backward.

 

[Myztek]

I don't know why everyone is assuming that this video is showing that wavedashing is being removed. Pikachu isn't even shown air-dodging. He merely tumbles and falls onto a platform, then does a ground roll.

 

[rsc_390]

I don't believe they have removed wavedashing - look at the nintendo world video where Fox is unveiled. After the close-up scenes there is a short battle scene. Right after Fox drops from the platform, but before he dash attacks he crouches, then wavedashes backward.

I don't know why everyone is assuming that this video is showing that wavedashing is being removed. Pikachu isn't even shown air-dodging. He merely tumbles and falls onto a platform, then does a ground roll.

Obviously it's not confirmed. We're just noting that many of Wavedash's uses are going away, as rolling has clearly improved from Melee. This implies that wavedashing will be removed. We're not sure, but it's a possibility, that's all.

 

[WoapGang]

If wave dashing is removed, that opens doors for an entire to battle strategy which i think sakurai was attempting to a accomplish with all the new moves

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Oh.... god.

I just dled and watched that trailer. and the pikachu thing in slow motion a few times.

I think what you've found is very monumental.

SMASH. IS. DOOMED.

Do you see whats happening? Rolling IS wavedashing now. This is their response to a difficult technique we as a smash community created and perfected and intergrated into the metagame, nerfing it, and making it so someone who doesn't even know how to short hop could do it.

Well if thats the case, I wont be playing this game. Sucks looked like it had a chance to be good too, but what you just showed me has killed all hopes I could possibly have for this game.

 

[Aminar]

Oh.... god.

I just dled and watched that trailer. and the pikachu thing in slow motion a few times.

I think what you've found is very monumental.

SMASH. IS. DOOMED.

Do you see whats happening? Rolling IS wavedashing now. This is their response to a difficult technique we as a smash community created and perfected and intergrated into the metagame, nerfing it, and making it so someone who doesn't even know how to short hop could do it.

Well if thats the case, I wont be playing this game. Sucks looked like it had a chance to be good too, but what you just showed me has killed all hopes I could possibly have for this game.

Your overreacting quite a bit. If the games fun it's worth it, if not oh well. I'd like to see wavedashing leave, It's hard on my hands, so I don't use it, and it seemsunnatural even within the game. I want this game to be very easy to pick up, with a low skill gap. Just because that way moregames will be fun. Sure it will kill tournaments, but if it's more fun, all the better.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Your overreacting quite a bit. If the games fun it's worth it, if not oh well. I'd like to see wavedashing leave, It's hard on my hands, so I don't use it, and it seemsunnatural even within the game. I want this game to be very easy to pick up, with a low skill gap. Just because that way moregames will be fun. Sure it will kill tournaments, but if it's more fun, all the better.

Thanks for your opinion. Glad to know you take no intrest in the competitive smash community, which in my opinion is, and always will be the true heart and soul of the smash community.

Wavedashing is hard on your hands? Dude, it's no harder than charging an X buster while dashing in megaman x. It's not a difficult technique. It's difficult to use PROPERLY and to intergrate into your game smoothly, doing it is not hard at all. When I first learned of wavedashing a WHILE ago I learned how to DO it in an hour. I learned how to use it over the next year, and theres still improvements to be done, though very few my tech game is almost flawless in the wavedash/land aspect.

What you're asking for in Brawl is quite possibly the exact opposite of what the actual smash community wants.

 

[Daisy101]

Thanks for your opinion. Glad to know you take no intrest in the competitive smash community, which in my opinion is, and always will be the true heart and soul of the smash community.

Wavedashing is hard on your hands? Dude, it's no harder than charging an X buster while dashing in megaman x. It's not a difficult technique. It's difficult to use PROPERLY and to intergrate into your game smoothly, doing it is not hard at all. When I first learned of wavedashing a WHILE ago I learned how to DO it in an hour. I learned how to use it over the next year, and theres still improvements to be done, though very few my tech game is almost flawless in the wavedash/land aspect.

What you're asking for in Brawl is quite possibly the exact opposite of what the actual smash community wants.

dont know

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

dont know

Hi Daisy, what do you mean by ''dont know?''

Tu rest au Verdun? Haha c'est cool man moi aussi j'avais mon maison dans Verdun la dernier Anneé avec mon mere, sur 3rd avenue et wellington.

Tu suviens de moi? On a joué un shiek vs shiek et mon shiek vs ton Peach sur Jeudi la semaine derniere

*Excuse my bad french*

 

[Devastlian]

Well, the thing about Pikachu's roll is that it isn't a dodge roll. He's rolling from laying on the ground after landing from a tumble. So this roll is a "getting up" roll. The hidden gameplay tweak that this thread it named for is that you can roll off the side of suspended platforms (IE those you can't grab their edge and can fall through) instead of just stopping at the edge and finishing your roll in one place as in the first two games. Pikachu grabs the edge below from falling which I believe is possible in SSBM and doesn't seem to be a result of the "tweak".

As mentioned earlier, this is a pretty specific situation so this might not apply to all rolls or it might not apply to ledges you grab on to (for example, it could just stop you or it could cut you straight to ledgefalling [or whatever pressing down from grabbing a ledge is called]).

 

[Red Exodus]

Lol, WDing isn't hard on my hands, I have tried doing it, all I have to do is practice until it's natural, but I can't practice unless I try it in an arcade that isn't even near to me so the odds of me ever learning to WD consistently have decreased tremendously.

I'm pissed because half of those advanced techniques I've heard so much about take no skill or practice to do, I was really looking forward to practicing those ATs when I got my Wii too.

 

[The_Corax_King]

omg... wavedashing is NOT essential... melee was fun even before you knew how to wavedash... right????
plus there may be new glitches that are jsut as useful or maybe even more useful in brawl...
I hate nubs who think that wavedashing is the ONLY thing that makes you good..
"zOMGz! brawl is gunna = t3h sux cuz theres no WDing!!!!11!!!1!"

anyway... here is the youtube version without ads. 00:35 exactly...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xTM2_8VCfHA

 

[Tyson651]

i dont really see anything useful about that insta-roll off the ledge or w/e thing.

although i dunno if its just me, but their standard rolling (especially metaknight's) seems a hella lot faster.

 

[Rash]

Oh.... god.

I just dled and watched that trailer. and the pikachu thing in slow motion a few times.

I think what you've found is very monumental.

SMASH. IS. DOOMED.

Do you see whats happening? Rolling IS wavedashing now. This is their response to a difficult technique we as a smash community created and perfected and intergrated into the metagame, nerfing it, and making it so someone who doesn't even know how to short hop could do it.

Well if thats the case, I wont be playing this game. Sucks looked like it had a chance to be good too, but what you just showed me has killed all hopes I could possibly have for this game.

Wow. Just...wow. You're overreacting like crazy.

WDing is just one of the advanced techniques, and it's the least important of them. Even if it was removed in place of an easier "roll" the experienced players could still find ways to create mindgames out of it. Not only that, but with the exclusion of the WD we know so well in Melee, there's always room for enhancement in each player's gaming strategy.

If anything the ease of the new roll will make players less dependant on that one strategy, and they'll be forced to find new ways to fight and compensate. At that point they will not only differentiate themselves from other players, but they'll reach an entirely new level of gaming that newbies could only dream of.

I can't believe you take one technique so seriously that you would automatically dismiss Brawl like that. Hell, nothing about the WD has even been confirmed; you could very much just be letting your obsession with the WD (and the oh so terrible thought that it might not be in Brawl) cloud your judgement. If anything, that attitude is an insult to the advancement of Smash Brothers.

 

[S_B]

I'm sure there are people who have forced themselves into discomfort just to stay competetive! No game should make someone do this.

Agreed in full.

You have to remember that the philosophy of the Wii is one which will no doubt also permeate SSBB as well, and that philosophy is "Make it appeal to as many people as possible."

For as much as WDing adds to the game for some, it basically ensures that others will never be able to compete in the higher tiers of combat. I think they'll be better off replacing it with more user-friendly maneuvers which perform the same or similar functions.

What you're asking for in Brawl is quite possibly the exact opposite of what the actual smash community wants.

It puzzles me why the Smash "community" microcosm can't see past its own nose when it comes to issues like this.

SSBB is made by Nintendo. Nintendo's goal is not to please the SSB community. In fact, Nintendo doesn't give a rat's arse about the SSB community. Nintendo has ONE goal: sell as many copies of SSBB as humanly possible.

And contrary to popular belief, most of those copies will be sold to people who are outside the SSB community, especially newcomers who are converts from Sony/MS systems and buying a Nintendo system for the first time with the Wii.

You want an accurate prediction of what Brawl will be like? It'll be as user-friendly as possible but deeper than SSBM and it will do so without using complicated gestures which restrict high levels of play to people who have the highest finger dexterity.

Like I've said before, good players will always find ways to be the best, and they'll do it without wavedashing.

 

[Doc_Holiday]

I don't like Pikachu anymore.

 

[Promethus]

Oh.... god.

I just dled and watched that trailer. and the pikachu thing in slow motion a few times.

I think what you've found is very monumental.

SMASH. IS. DOOMED.

Do you see whats happening? Rolling IS wavedashing now. This is their response to a difficult technique we as a smash community created and perfected and intergrated into the metagame, nerfing it, and making it so someone who doesn't even know how to short hop could do it.

Well if thats the case, I wont be playing this game. Sucks looked like it had a chance to be good too, but what you just showed me has killed all hopes I could possibly have for this game.

Wow you must be generally stupid to not play a game just because about the Rolling.
Seriously just because something was changed doesn't mean the game is gonna suck.
Sakurai knows what he's doing and I trust that.

I don't like Pikachu anymore.

I don't like you anymore.

 

[KoopaKoot]

That was one fast recovery roll....the edge didn't interfere with it.
Does'nt have anything to do with wavedashing though
This isn't CVS2, you can't roll cancel in Smash.

 

[Bolshoi]

Um...this wasn't really a hidden tweak. In one of the trailers, there were at least 3 scenes dedicated to showing of the new roll/wavedash/slide type thing.

And if you think something like this will ruin Smash, you are incredibly paranoid of change, and I pity you.

 

[GreenMamba]

The hidden tweak isn't the quick roll, it's the fact that Pikachu rolls off of the platform.

 

[thatsmybutta]

Um...this wasn't really a hidden tweak. In one of the trailers, there were at least 3 scenes dedicated to showing of the new roll/wavedash/slide type thing.

And if you think something like this will ruin Smash, you are incredibly paranoid of change, and I pity you.

lol you go girl

 

[Adi]

The funny thing is that the reason SSBM managed to appeal greatly to the competitive community was because of the fact that it was rather rushed. Although things like teching and L-Canceling might have been implemented purposefully I doubt many of the advanced techniques were. Wavedashing was obviously not planned, nor were the strategies that came along with it. Shorthopping was probably not planned to be used in the way it is now with Shffls and even small things like JC throw, ect. were probably not in the minds of the developers. With such a huge effort put forth into this game I guarantee that it will probably be a beefed up version of the 64 game. It will still be fun but it'll be the end for heavy end competition on the scale of Halo. Combined with the lack of a ranking system online my feeling is that the game will become more of a party game then a competitive game.. /sigh, oh well, at least we have Halo 3 to play for that.