Data Hero-King's Council: Video Analysis

[Locuan]

I went on a linking spree... I couldn't help myself... They must be known, especially Xeon whose Yoshi almost won the recent and uploaded tournament!

The island has a strong competitive community. ^_^

 

[Charls]

I'm just going to throw out that we have some legitimately good players over here in Puerto Rico (shameless advertising of course), but unfortunately Team Ragnarok is our only reliable stream that I know of; some weekly attendees don't get their spot to shine. Also Excel Zero used Shiek the whole tournament, which I assume is because of him not wanting to mess up his melee Peach since he still places first on all our Melee and Project M competitions.

And on the video, damn. I played really bad there to be honest. I'm not maining Marth anymore but I thought playing him wouldn't hurt since I was already pretty down in the dumps that day. Clearly my tech skill and Marth play in general was quite deficient that match. I really wasn't doing anything with my trots and my spacing was... ugh. I also made a lot of stupid mistakes and generally went on autopilot for the most part, so I didn't make it very far (that was my last match). I'm going to a weekly now with a few very good players from the Caguas and the Metro area though, and I managed to place well so I'll try to get some Marth games recorded when possible. Even if I don't always use him for bigger tourneys I'll still try to help represent Marth as best as I can.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm just going to throw out that we have some legitimately good players over here in Puerto Rico (shameless advertising of course), but unfortunately Team Ragnarok is our only reliable stream that I know of; some weekly attendees don't get their spot to shine. Also Excel Zero used Shiek the whole tournament, which I assume is because of him not wanting to mess up his melee Peach since he still places first on all our Melee and Project M competitions.

And on the video, damn. I played really bad there to be honest. I'm not maining Marth anymore but I thought playing him wouldn't hurt since I was already pretty down in the dumps that day. Clearly my tech skill and Marth play in general was quite deficient that match. I really wasn't doing anything with my trots and my spacing was... ugh. I also made a lot of stupid mistakes and generally went on autopilot for the most part, so I didn't make it very far (that was my last match). I'm going to a weekly now with a few very good players from the Caguas and the Metro area though, and I managed to place well so I'll try to get some Marth games recorded when possible. Even if I don't always use him for bigger tourneys I'll still try to help represent Marth as best as I can.

Shoot... I've seen you before, but I don't think I ever checked your username. Anyway, what you say is true and ZeRo said that Chile also has great players besides himself. The only issue: nobody really knows. I didn't know about Team Ragnarok and Puerto Rico's scene until I checked the latest SSB4 Falco videos on Youtube which is where I found out about Cyro, 590kazu's channel, and more. It sucks since there's great players out there that people don't know and some don't even have anything except a name that someone backs up like zanryo who I just heard of. Most of the time, it's just VGBC, Clash Tournaments, and Team Spooky uploading stuff. Now there's showdowngg and hopefully, more people know about Team Ragnarok and whatever streams out there.

Good or not, it doesn't matter since you represent a character, his community, and overall, you represent a game's community too. It's like saying, "Hey, Marth's out there. You better watch out!" and "Look at me having fun!" That's what matters. Lots of people look for their characters and sometimes, it disheartening not seeing a lot or just seeing the same name. I mean, Mr. E, ZeRo, Mew2King, GimR, NAKAT, and Keitaro are great, but seeing more players doesn't hurt. If there were like 10 names for a character, that's awesome no matter how famous or not. People will talk about Mr. E's Marth just as they will talk about yours.

 

[Locuan]

Don't worry about your placement @ Charls , keep practicing and improving and you can only go higher. I used to face Manny a lot in Brawl Tournaments as well as all of the others you have gotten to meet. It's great seeing so many new people in the community.

 

[Ffamran]

If only Marth spoke French...

From United French Smashers, Genius's Marth vs. Devskil's Fox and Mega Man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmXnSgZZbRc.

vs. Eliwood's Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-RcP8euCEY.

Edit: From Great's Channel, Marth vs. Lizardon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FjmwO1CAFO8#t=366.

vs. Falco and Dark Pit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebRDPPr7FTg.

 

[Foodies]

I played Dabuz on his stream today. I think I did okay aside from how I died 1st stock...should've just Iai countered that lol. His use of Luma's Lunar landing (I think that's what they call it) was something I never really experienced fighting other Rosas and I got hit when I didn't expect to. After watching it I >:U at how I missed that fsmash opportunity, not sure how I didn't notice it at the time.

http://www.twitch.tv/dabuz18/b/644456789?t=37m09s

(There are 2 games before this against his Day 1? Sonic, not really worth watching imo but if you want it's there)

 

[Kibzu~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juA_q349rEE Just marth destruction with customs ^^

 

[kj22]

https://youtu.be/ETOBMPul_ZQ?t=5m54s

KJ (Sonic/Marth) vs Trela (Robin)
These match finally went up yay


critique away

 

[cerealkiller]

KJ, nice to see another Sonic/Marth player here

First of all, every time I see a good Robin player I know I'm going to have a hard time...specially as Marth.

As Sonic you play your UpB way better than me which was great against Robin. But you can't give him space, that's what he wants to charge spells and throw fire. Maybe you could be a little more aggressive, spin more, pivot grabs, run bait and HA.

As Marth I think you mostly lost focus. Maybe you were a little nervous as you wasted some grabs, recovered to soon and didn't punish that well. It's not easy to SH N/F air because of his spell and fire but you can SH air dodge and approach. You also never used counter. Some people don't like it but I think it's very important to use it. Near the ledge there were plenty of opportunities and one time he was charging his FSmash and you just waited in your shield. The situation begged for a counter or rolling and tip Fsmash

 

[Honor]

I played Dabuz on his stream today. I think I did okay aside from how I died 1st stock...should've just Iai countered that lol. His use of Luma's Lunar landing (I think that's what they call it) was something I never really experienced fighting other Rosas and I got hit when I didn't expect to. After watching it I >:U at how I missed that fsmash opportunity, not sure how I didn't notice it at the time.

You played well over all I thought. I clearly struggle more than you do with this MU Dabuz is a very good R and L. Do you think you threw out the counter a lil too often? I find that when I play R and L the counter hits Luma and then I get punished so I try to avoid it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Me and my friend just messing around testing the El Gato I bought for our project. Feel free to critique though honestly we were just messing around. More custom moves though for those that wanna see that stuff.

 

[Nike.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2e9R5NoVJ4

 

[Emblem Lord]

You have this weird habit of giving up TRUE damage or REAL advantage so you can do something gimmicky or janky instead.

You did the same thing in Brawl, but you got away with it because Marth's frame data was kinda insane back then. Not the case anymore.

Cut it out.

 

[Zorai]

https://youtu.be/ETOBMPul_ZQ?t=5m54s

KJ (Sonic/Marth) vs Trela (Robin)
These match finally went up yay


critique away

Only comment I have is that the shieldbreaker at 7:32 seemed like a really good idea but you mis-spaced it :/

Emptyhopping like that applies a lot of pressure, so he was ready to roll once you jumped like that.

The less commitments you make with Marth the better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2e9R5NoVJ4

At :24 you definitely could've upaired after that bair and even if he did airdodge which he didn't, you can punish that too. But you landed and tried to dtilt when even counter would have been a better choice lol. That was a very Brawl-esque decision and it doesn't work anymore :/

At :59 you knew he was going for the ledge but you did something silly instead of trying to trump or pressure the ledge with your range.

Ehh sloppy play all around.

 

[firecheetah]

hey gang. first time poster, long time reader. i dont normally play as marth but i gave him a shot tonight and i REALLY enjoy his playstyle. i was wondering if yall could give me some constructive criticism? id love to get better, maybe even main him (haha after a million years of practice)

 

[cerealkiller]

Hi firecheetah, if you enjoy his playstyle then go for it and don't listen to other people saying he's week or tier lists

But if you just really started using him now I think it's a bit hard to give you advice... because first you just have to play a bit more with him, learn the basics by yourself or read some guides.

But still, yet another Marth that doesn't use counter once in a match For example, right in the beginning at 00:04, Mario is approaching very slowly stuck in his neutral air attack and you just stood there in your shield. For me that's a free hit, an obligatory counter Also when Mario is recovering low and you're near the ledge, just drop and counter because he has no choice but UpB with a predictable route.

 

[firecheetah]

Counter during Mario's Up+B? That's... so obvious I feel like the dumbest guy alive... I absolutely forget Marth's counter is there most of the time. When I do think to use it, I'm really obvious about it. I guess I just need to practice until it's second nature. Thanks for the advice!

And I've never cared about tier lists. I still play the frog even after the nerfs. I will never lose hope!!

 

[cerealkiller]

It's ok, I do the same with Shield Breaker, I tend to use it less, while other use it a lot. Counter is not very easy to use so you're spot on when saying you should practice!
Usually it's obvious when the opponent gets aware of counter after you use it the first time and is more careful so I try to make the first one count to make them fear the power of it.

 

[Rewrite]

As far as I know I'm one of three Marth's in the British Columbia Smash community. There's a Smash tournament for Melee and 4 at Vancouver Street battle tomorrow, so if I'm on-stream I'll definitely give Marth a shot. I'll ask them if we could use their stream footage for our thread.

 

[Vipermoon]

http://youtu.be/85YvRnxh8W4

I AM NOT MR. E, nor do I think a highlight video is something that is worth analyzing. But I'm not sure if this was posted anywhere in the Marth forum.

Anyway, for those who haven't seen it, enjoy.

 

[Xisin]

heres a vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8xiHe11-BQ

it's all i have now, I do realize i missed a fsmash tipper on a shieldbreak, her swaying back and forth ****ed my spacing and i didn't account for that, yeah i shoulda went for shieldbreaker lol. I would love some advice if you have it, anyhting to do to improve myself helps a ton, I'm trying to get those placings.

 

[Rewrite]

heres a vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8xiHe11-BQ

it's all i have now, I do realize i missed a fsmash tipper on a shieldbreak, her swaying back and forth ****ed my spacing and i didn't account for that, yeah i shoulda went for shieldbreaker lol. I would love some advice if you have it, anyhting to do to improve myself helps a ton, I'm trying to get those placings.

If you get a shield break you should go for a fully charged Shield Breaker instead of an f-smash anyway since the fully charged Shield Breaker deals a lot more knockback, is quite easy to tip, and can already be spaced from the shield break leaving you time to taunt. I've finished stocks at less than 30% without rage cause of that thing. <3

 

[Zorai]

heres a vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8xiHe11-BQ

it's all i have now, I do realize i missed a fsmash tipper on a shieldbreak, her swaying back and forth ****ed my spacing and i didn't account for that, yeah i shoulda went for shieldbreaker lol. I would love some advice if you have it, anyhting to do to improve myself helps a ton, I'm trying to get those placings.

Honestly dude it looked like both of you were suffering from tournament nerves especially in game 3 lol. Good job on pulling ahead.

The advice I want to offer is, you have to respect ZSS in the neutral game. Yeah swinging your sword can work a lot of the time but a higher level ZSS would have definitely exposed that kind of playstyle. I'm saying this from a perspective of living in a strong region (NY/NJ).

If you want to consistently win with Marth even without crescent slash, your neutral game has to be real solid.

Also more shieldbreaker, you landed with fair a lot and it poked (or she dropped shield), but that doesn't always happen so just space yourself with tipper SB. That kills really early too.

 

[kj22]

KJ (Sonic/Marth) vs Ry (ZSS) 01:19:32 http://www.twitch.tv/morphiziz/v/4143750

KJ (Marth/Sonic) vs Big Boss (Peach/Ganon) 01:32:54 http://www.twitch.tv/morphiziz/v/4143750 Got rekt then leveled up, was kinda a douche but hey SONIC SPEED

KJ (Marth/Sonic) vs Gnes (Shulk) 02:27:52 GF (all Marth) 02:45:50 GF 2 (all Sonic) http://www.twitch.tv/morphiziz/v/4143750

@ Shaya @ Locuan

 

[Umby]

My most recent vid vs Mega Man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdPM1IGHkhg

 

[Locuan]

KJ (Marth/Sonic) vs Gnes (Shulk) 02:27:52 GF (all Marth)

There's some general things that I noticed not much to say though on my end:

• You and I share a common weakness. We like to getup on the ledge most of the time. There are more options. You where getting punished by F-tilts or D-throws which sealed your stocks at high percents. I know Shaya mentioned this in the social but it's important to mention again.
• When you connect your Dancing Blade you would 90% of the time stop the move before the final hit. Gnes was reading this and just jumped away and you lost your follow up. You could mix it up, like doing DB1 > Up-DB2 or simply hitting with the entirety of DB to get the full damage.
• You had very risky edge guard attempts. You can use them, but Shulk out-ranges you and if he reads it correctly can punish as you saw. I only think I ever saw one ledge trump attempt. You could try to incorporate more of them into your game.

Anyways, I have a question for you. How do you feel about the neutral game in this match-up?

 

[kj22]

There's some general things that I noticed not much to say though on my end:

• You and I share a common weakness. We like to getup on the ledge most of the time. There are more options. You where getting punished by F-tilts or D-throws which sealed your stocks at high percents. I know Shaya mentioned this in the social but it's important to mention again.
• When you connect your Dancing Blade you would 90% of the time stop the move before the final hit. Gnes was reading this and just jumped away and you lost your follow up. You could mix it up, like doing DB1 > Up-DB2 or simply hitting with the entirety of DB to get the full damage.
• You had very risky edge guard attempts. You can use them, but Shulk out-ranges you and if he reads it correctly can punish as you saw. I only think I ever saw one ledge trump attempt. You could try to incorporate more of them into your game.

Anyways, I have a question for you. How do you feel about the neutral game in this match-up?

I'll try to mix it up next time. It's just scary that Shulk can cover every single ledge option from one spot, and he was punishing my neutral get-ups HARD. Any ground based ledge option would get stuffed, I'll try the ledge jump and ledge hop airdodge options though.

I was forcing him to recover high so I could ledgehop aerial him (nair or aerial dancing blade) but kept making misinputs and would do a ledgejump instead of the ledge hop

I felt like I was stopping early because I noticed he was already out of the combo or because of a misinput

Neutral game when he was in buster/vanilla/smash felt okay, was me staying just outside his range and close to the ground so I could shield and punish his aeriels.

In shield I didn't have to watch my spacing that much since his burst range was greatly reduced. Less pressure as a result, but when he put it on at high percents that was really annoying...took unnecessary damage. Shouldve thrown him offstage in shield mode instead of up

In speed being grounded is very key so you can pivot grab/grab his dash approaches or shield then db punish. If I was in the air when he was in speed mode that wasn't a fun time.

In general, being within tipper range of shulk was what I was aiming for, most of my moves come out faster than his and I can stuff his options. Being outside tipper range felt terrible because shulk could whiff punish very well. I would walk into I was in tipper range then shield and react from there. Anything he threw out I could punish/handle. My main issue was when he was far away and could pick any option he pleased, getting to tipper range was the main struggle.

Up close was bad too. If he sh naired into me I died a little because he could react to any punish attempt, (spotdodge my grab, jab me if I try to drop my shield) prolly might have to give up ground next time he does nairs on shield like that.

Going to TGC2 this weekend?

 

[Locuan]

Going to TGC2 this weekend?

I want to go, but the three hour drive to go and then back is constantly knocking on my head. I know it's a stupid excuse but seeing how late the tournament ended last time; it's definitely something I'm not looking forward to. It'd be great if I found a place to stay though that's not expensive. I'll see what I can manage.

 

[kj22]

I want to go, but the three hour drive to go and then back is constantly knocking on my head. I know it's a stupid excuse but seeing how late the tournament ended last time; it's definitely something I'm not looking forward to. It'd be great if I found a place to stay though that's not expensive. I'll see what I can manage.

There's always Sync's place ;p <removed for privacy>. prolly should bring a sleeping bag/blankets

 

[Vipermoon]

You just put someone's address online

 

[kj22]

You just put someone's address online

youre right, i forget this isn't like a city specific thread.

 

[Shaya]

isn't hard to find that address all over the internet

I guess there's the higher chance of someone doing pranky things like ordering 500 large pizzas and krusty the clown to perform, but.... eh lol

 

[Vipermoon]

LMAO......

 

[Vipermoon]

http://youtu.be/tJET7J46Noo

I have a hilarious Marth v. Lucina video uploaded on ZeRo's youtube channel of him v. MVD. They are using customs (the wrong custom by accident in the first match) and just playing around. But the big surprise is at around 9:30. If that counter can consistently do that (to other moves) then hallelujah.

 

[Xisin]

the reason it was doing it was how they were spacing crescent. You can space it so either the blade eats through the stage or doesn't hit at all and sweet spots, depends on your angle.

 

[Quickhero]

Hey guys! I'm just a Marth user here that would like all the help (and views) I can get so I can improve as a player! :D I uploaded a video recently so I'm just going to show it here and hopefully I can get some comments/replies on how I could've played better. I didn't upload this video SOLELY for improving though, so apologies if it may be difficult to analyze mistakes.

Marth vs Fox is at 10:16, and custom moves were off for these matches.

 

[Vipermoon]

the reason it was doing it was how they were spacing crescent. You can space it so either the blade eats through the stage or doesn't hit at all and sweet spots, depends on your angle.

Yeah it's great that you have the choice.

 

[Rewrite]

Hey guys! I'm just a Marth user here that would like all the help (and views) I can get so I can improve as a player! :D I uploaded a video recently so I'm just going to show it here and hopefully I can get some comments/replies on how I could've played better. I didn't upload this video SOLELY for improving though, so apologies if it may be difficult to analyze mistakes.

Marth vs Fox is at 10:16, and custom moves were off for these matches.

The biggest thing I noticed is that you missed a lot of easy punishes. When Fox was recovering from certain moves I noticed you rolled instead of going for an attack which is something a lot of players will do on reflex. It's an important habit to curb and once you do you'll see significant improvement in your punish game.

You also whiffed a lot of punishes whether it was because you were facing the wrong way or your attack whiffed. What you'll want to do to punish people outside your range is just walk forward instead of dashing. Marth has one of the fastest walk speeds in the game and not enough people use it. There was also one point where Fox was recovering vertically with Fox Fire and dropped down for the gimp, but you got hit by the Fox Fire. Counter is a good edge-guard against those kinds of recoveries, but I find run-off b-air was the best option there. You've just got to work on the spacing. Keep in mind though that characters with easily gimp-able up-specials like Fox will be ready to tech stage spikes so be ready to follow-up.

In regards to facing the wrong way, getting used to turning around before grabbing out of shield or just turning around on reaction is something that will come with time. You just have to work at it. I still mess it up from time to time as.

As Marth you'll almost always want to chase off-stage. he was one of the best off-stage games out of all the characters and there aren't many who can contest him. Some characters like Meta Knight aren't easy to gimp, but that comes more from how safe MK is off-stage rather him being able to fight back.
You didn't chase off-stage a lot either. Fox has a poor off-stage game and against Marth if he doesn't read your attack and air-dodge he's pretty much free.but you made this one very good play where you chased Fox really deep and spiked him with your d-air. That legitimately gave me chills. Unfortunately you didn't make it back from that. Knowing how deep you can go is crucial. youw ere at relatively low percent on that stock too so you would have had quite a lead had you survived. In friendlies, those kinds of situations are better to have tried and failed then to have not tried at all.

You throw out a lot of needless attacks as well, even when the opponent was out of your range. What makes Marth so good is that the potential of his hit-boxes are just as scary as them being out. You don't always ned a hit-box out as Marth to apply pressure. Marth has some really good pokes on shield such as jab and retreating f-air as well. What makes Marth's f-air a good move is if you short hop and use it the f-air ends before you hit the ground and you have time to perform another action like another aerial or double jump making it much safer and harder to punish. Dolphin Slash out of f-air is also really good since it's one of Marth's fastest attacks and on stages like battlefield it can carry you to the higher platforms out of danger.

The final thing I want to touch on is your overuse of forward smash. Smash 4 Marth's f-smash is a reading tool. If you're not making a read then f-smash isn't a good idea. There are a lot of moves that f-smash cannot punish on reaction (your opponent will recover from their attack animation and go into shield). it's a tempting moves to use but it isn't reliable on reaction unless it's on reaction. Try to get into the habit of using f-tilt, dash grabs, and Dancing Blade for punishing.

One additional thing is killing. Marth actually has a lot of kill potential once you hit around 100%. Dancing Blade, f-tilt, and n-air are all reliable kill options at around this time when tippered. Up throw at around 140% to 180% is also incredibly reliable so try not to stale it. As Marth once you get your spacing down you'll be surprised how much damage you'll be doing so don;t worry about waiting for that up-throw K.O..

EDIT: Woops, I thought you were at a lower percent. My b.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Rewrite Thanks for the advice man! I can safely say that I generally do try utilizing my ledge game and go off-stage. Specifically forcing ledge trumps and utilizing b-air since you can get it tippe(re)d if you get it right when the person is forced out of the ledge. That being said, I do have a bad habit of throwing useless aerials when I'm pressured, especially d-air (oh god) so I'm glad you noticed that and hopefully I'll be sure to not do that as often and just keep my head in the game.

F-smash is something I need to work on, but it's more or less me just making sure I actually do f-tilt instead of f-smash. I like using f-tilt as a way to create space or as a fake out but oftentimes I end up using f-smash. I just gotta make sure I'm moving the control stick to the right BEFORE pressing A rather than after. I need to also make sure that I start taking your 100% thing seriously, because I do notice a frequent pattern with me having a hard time killing if I get the opponent beyond 100%! I didn't legitimately notice that ever until you made me think about it so thanks a lot! I didn't even know f-air could combo with Dolphin Slash haha.

Yeah, I got super hype when I did the d-air spike as well. I didn't really intend on surviving but it was more or less to reset the stock. I was at 141% so no way was it going to be a noticeable stock advantage. Still, maybe I could've lived it haha. I seriously doubt I would've though.

 

[moofpi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJET7J46Noo

ZeRo (Lucina) vs MVD (Marth) in a 11 minute series of friendlies. Lots of cool stuff.