Data Hero-King's Council: Video Analysis

[Shaya]

well, from online stuff I can definitely help anyone if you have specific things in mind. Scenarios you are aware of that your struggle with.
But generally critiquing an entire Marth online video doesn't give us much, as we have to play/adapt in such weird ways to cover the reactive shortfall.

So yeah, you can show me a video, you can tell me what specific parts you want to have someone look at/give advice for, and then I can probably do :D

In other words, if I know what you're thinking, I can tell you how to think "better", but generally I have no idea what anyone is thinking or doing in wifi scenarios.

Maybe I should save a few replays of me playing Marth in For Glory against some campy/annoying characters. You can see how I try to deal with "things" that I don't have a consistent means of dealing with. Unfortunately in some cases this means I just play so so so slowly that matches go to time or close to. But you'd probably be surprised at how I start a match as Marth, get hit to 150% and slowly but surely claw it back without ever getting hit by any kill move, it's just really boring and as I already said, often leads to time outs, and Marth isn't winning sudden deaths in lag.

 

[MitoRequiem]

well, from online stuff I can definitely help anyone if you have specific things in mind. Scenarios you are aware of that your struggle with.
But generally critiquing an entire Marth online video doesn't give us much, as we have to play/adapt in such weird ways to cover the reactive shortfall.

So yeah, you can show me a video, you can tell me what specific parts you want to have someone look at/give advice for, and then I can probably do :D

In other words, if I know what you're thinking, I can tell you how to think "better", but generally I have no idea what anyone is thinking or doing in wifi scenarios.

Maybe I should save a few replays of me playing Marth in For Glory against some campy/annoying characters. You can see how I try to deal with "things" that I don't have a consistent means of dealing with. Unfortunately in some cases this means I just play so so so slowly that matches go to time or close to. But you'd probably be surprised at how I start a match as Marth, get hit to 150% and slowly but surely claw it back without ever getting hit by any kill move, it's just really boring and as I already said, often leads to time outs, and Marth isn't winning sudden deaths in lag.

Alrighty, Well worse case we wait till Wii U version comes out and hope that my local scene does weeklies(It should, I live in SoCal) :> and yeah I have some really tough MUs against some campy/annoying characters and just have to play REALLY REALLY patient and it irritates me to the point where if I know that's what I'm gonna be facing I immediately go to my Rosalina, Pit, Pac-Man or Robin. If you ever get some good replays against Greninja, Sonic, Jigglypuff or Shiek please let me know! I struggle so much with those ; ; I think if we were able to use customs it wouldn't be so bad though, We'd have Iai Strike and Dashing Assault

 

[Kinslayer]

I'd be interested in anyone posting matches of them fighting a ZSS. She is a character that is fairly annoying for Marth and I can pull out wins but I feel like im just doing it by the seat of my pants. It's never and official this works here and I can stop this with this. It is all improvised and reacting to the opponent which is kinda hard itself when the opponent has paralyzer spam and the occasional delay.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You guys are really sweating match-ups with the most precision based character in an environment full of latency?

Chill.

 

[MitoRequiem]

You guys are really sweating match-ups with the most precision based character in an environment full of latency?

Chill.

In my defense this is online and offline but I see what you mean

 

[Shaya]

Zero Suit has to respect dash assault way too much to have a noticeable advantage on us. Like you can jump and dash assault at the same time as she uses paralyzer and win every time (be above the laser as to not get hit, and still hit her; god this move is dumb haha).

Even without them, @KillLock seems confident in that match up, apparently his training partner is a ZSS main.

 

[Kinslayer]

You guys are really sweating match-ups with the most precision based character in an environment full of latency?

Chill.

90-95% of my games don't get laggy or have delay that is noticeable otherwise I wouldn't care.

 

[Shaya]

Eh, I don't think it's possible to have a perfect game with Marth on wifi, to an extent you can still play a punishment oriented game, but you'll end up losing to the same "crap" used in a better way eventually, and that stuff definitely isn't as powerful offline.

 

[Kinslayer]

Zero Suit has to respect dash assault way too much to have a noticeable advantage on us. Like you can jump and dash assault at the same time as she uses paralyzer and win every time (be above the laser as to not get hit, and still hit her; god this move is dumb haha).

Even without them, @KillLock seems confident in that match up, apparently his training partner is a ZSS main.

Thing is zss doesn't have a lot of recovery on that move and can just dodge basically right after using it. I'll have to talk to him and attempt to pick his brain on that match up. Also isn't assault dash a custom?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Even a frame of lag matters. marth relies on tight frame trap situations that are not consisteny in an online environment

 

[Kinslayer]

Even a frame of lag matters. marth relies on tight frame trap situations that are not consisteny in an online environment

Disagree. Yes, it is key but a frame which is literally 1/60th of s second is not going to kill everything. I've been playing Marth for quite sometime. Online as long as there is no lag spikes or consistent lag through the whole match I can space and read my opponent very well.

I play a punish/momentum based kind of style and it seems to work fine on and offline (I have a scene, I only use online to practice).

I wish people would quit sayings this over and over it deters people from wanting to enjoy the character.
We are aware this isn't the prime environment for Marth heck it's not the best for a lot of people, but let's talk about what the character in his current state can do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How can you if it weakens his archetype? No one relies on ground traps as much as marth. Wifi is good for working out the kinks in your fundamentals. Ethernet online is much more consistent.

Also you said read. Im not talking reads. Im talking i dtilted your shield and no matter what defensive option you choose i have a reactive response that lets me stay in control.

 

[Shaya]

1 frame difference is already too much.
A character like Marth has the best walk in the game for example, it allows him to be one of the best defensive and aggressive characters on the ground. He can do any action out of it at any time, and if he power shields something has tools like dancing blade to get the punish nearly every time.

Now I try to play Marth on wifi and I have an opponent who uses rolls as their only movement option. Offline, my ability to control the walk without issue allows me to just respace to remain in advantage from such a crappy tactic against basically everyone. Online, that 1 frame extra distance means something whiffs, or 1 frame earlier means I get hit, what if I input a dash instead because of delay? What if I want to input a dash at a specific time (like dash full hop retreating forward air; my staple aggressive tool) and I end up walking longer still?

Marth needs these things to be consistent to exceed at what he does. His moves have way too much commitment otherwise. Like I can dash jump forward air online all day, and it's pretty effective still, but even with an extra few frames of lag that suddenly becomes significantly harder to do, so I'll always use it ineffectively.

So that's just on the ground. What about the air? Marth's actions in this game aren't frame safe like in Brawl, however they still are with good spacing. Marth has good aerial mobility so swaying in the air backwards/forwards means a lot to ensuring aerials are spaced properly, and that he lands more safely. Every frame of movement matters.

 

[CitizenSNIPS]

I don't feel that the lag in online play is enough to seriously kill playing Marth. Maybe if you're constantly switching offline to online and it is difficult to transition back and forth, but if you are mainly an online player I don't think you're gonna suffer too much. I read some of the comments and it sounds like you guys are saying that literally any lag whatsoever is catastrophic to his game. I just don't buy that at all. I do think it affects him maybe more than a significant portion of the cast due to his mechanics (tipper, no projectiles etc), but to say that you can't execute traps or spacing at all is just exaggeration.

There are plenty of other fighting games that have some lag online and characters with tight frame windows to perform combos or setups are still played. I do not believe that Marth takes some extraordinary amount of precision compared to other fighting games characters. Maybe he does, I'm not an elite level player so maybe I'm missing something, but to say that traps/setups are impossible due to some latency is a bit ridiculous. I've played hundreds of matches with Marth online and I've always been more of a counter-attack/baiting type of player with Marth in Melee so I was able to transition over nicely. I will say that many times I fudge up a punish by tilting by accident, and dealing with rolling can be a pain in the ass, but I do well with him against a majority of the cast. My opinion is that you can still do well with Marth online, yes you will screw up sometimes due to lag, but to say discussing tactics/matchups is useless is wrong.

But I will agree that roll spamming is waaaaay better with the lag. Rolling already seems decently safe, so even with slight lag it makes it very annoying to deal with. Plus the lack of c-stick so sometimes tilts coming out makes punishing harder. I really can't wait to be able to play with a controller/c-stick as I think it will definitely help out a lot of Marth players.

 

[Shaya]

Marth has very short length active frames (most attacks are like 3-5 frames out) and generally high cool downs on his attacks compared to most characters in the game. He spends a lot of the time in the air because that's where his stuff is actually not a commitment. The air is more volatile in inputs than anything you would experience in your other online fighters.

I play Marth as a reactive punisher, I don't rely on reads, I rely on covering as many of my opponent's options as I can think of at once, and Marth is capable of doing that, albeit it's not something that can consistently work on wifi.

If I dash into shield and someone hits my shield, I know already that offline I would be getting a punish. Online they back roll although I input grab as fast as possible; wouldn't happen offline.
When I use dancing blade, I do so because I know it'll hit, it's a laggy move otherwise. On Wifi I have to input side-b "expecting" the opponent will get hit, not knowing, and the ease of messing up DB inputs or just being too slow to get that move out to punish is extremely detrimental to what I do.

I also rely on buffering inputs.
Stuff like turn around shield, or landing into a buffered turned around shield is extremely important to me, it separates me from less skilled players significantly because their cross ups become useless. Every time I try to do those actions in laggier conditions I just roll, instead of shield drop, action, etc.
That's not necessarily a Marth only thing, but seeing as he doesn't have the tools to cover crossovers "freely" he has to use those techniques to continue to get punishes. Not getting that input of turning around before I press down tilt means me doing it in the wrong direction and having to spend 30 frames to stand up again to turn around, meanwhile, opponent roller just hit me with a charged forward smash.

 

[CitizenSNIPS]

Marth has very short length active frames (most attacks are like 3-5 frames out) and generally high cool downs on his attacks compared to most characters in the game. He spends a lot of the time in the air because that's where his stuff is actually not a commitment. The air is more volatile in inputs than anything you would experience in your other online fighters.

I play Marth as a reactive punisher, I don't rely on reads, I rely on covering as many of my opponent's options as I can think of at once, and Marth is capable of doing that, albeit it's not something that can consistently work on wifi.

If I dash into shield and someone hits my shield, I know already that offline I would be getting a punish. Online they back roll although I input grab as fast as possible; wouldn't happen offline.
When I use dancing blade, I do so because I know it'll hit, it's a laggy move otherwise. On Wifi I have to input side-b "expecting" the opponent will get hit, not knowing, and the ease of messing up DB inputs or just being too slow to get that move out to punish is extremely detrimental to what I do.

I also rely on buffering inputs.
Stuff like turn around shield, or landing into a buffered turned around shield is extremely important to me, it separates me from less skilled players significantly because their cross ups become useless. Every time I try to do those actions in laggier conditions I just roll, instead of shield drop, action, etc.
That's not necessarily a Marth only thing, but seeing as he doesn't have the tools to cover crossovers "freely" he has to use those techniques to continue to get punishes. Not getting that input of turning around before I press down tilt means me doing it in the wrong direction and having to spend 30 frames to stand up again to turn around, meanwhile, opponent roller just hit me with a charged forward smash.

I can definitely relate to a lot of what you said as I also get frustrated when I am unable to properly react to things due to lag. And even after hundreds of matches I still find myself screwing up inputs due to the analog stick. I just find that some matches I'm in there doesn't seem to be much lag at all and that it almost feels lagless. These are the types of matches I think we can fairly deduce tech/strats from and that will help people get better. My previous post wasn't meant to say that playing online is 100% flawless, just wanted to say that people can get better and play well in an online environment. I think everyone levels up much quicker playing offline, but if all you got is online then it's still a good way to get better.

I am new to the community although I've dumped hundreds if not thousands of hours in Melee with my friends. I apologize if my previous post seemed like I was trying to bash you or Emblem Lord. Emblem Lord looks to be extremely dedicated to the character and the community and I am sure many people look up to him as a player. Just looking at the board it's easy to see he is really trying to bring out the best in the character and to suppress the QQing about the nerfs.

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents coming from a different fighting game community. Where at first a lot of the pros dismissed online only players ("Online warriors") but then a good number of these purely online players broke into the tourny scene and then offline scene and did extremely well. Online is not optimal but it isn't useless either- I guess would be my main point.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When online hits the Wii U and we can play using wired connections then online will be much more viable for match-up study. I have some plans for online play when console version drops actually so look forward to that. Also thank you for the kind words though in reality I never saw myself as anyone special. Just someone that played a character and I loved gathering knowledge so I figured I would do my best to share everything I know and help others learn. I am glad I heavily influenced many people although it seems Shaya is all that remains of that lost era. Still he stands as a constant reminder of the effect I once had on people and his diligence and knowledge puts even me to shame. If anyone deserves admiration it's him.

 

[Kinslayer]

When online hits the Wii U and we can play using wired connections then online will be much more viable for match-up study. I have some plans for online play when console version drops actually so look forward to that. Also thank you for the kind words though in reality I never saw myself as anyone special. Just someone that played a character and I loved gathering knowledge so I figured I would do my best to share everything I know and help others learn. I am glad I heavily influenced many people although it seems Shaya is all that remains of that lost era. Still he stands as a constant reminder of the effect I once had on people and his diligence and knowledge puts even me to shame. If anyone deserves admiration it's him.

Do you feel the netcode for this game is really that bad that we can't get valid match up exp? I have excellent connections 9/10.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do you play other fighters?

If you do then you know this netcode is garbage compared to netcode in ArcSys games, GGPO or SFxT. This is assuming you play these games wired.

You can get general match-up exp, but lets say Marths trap game for example. Everyone has different roll speeds and frame data. How can I accurately tell if Marths traps work vs certain chars where there is noticeable latency? And online...ALWAYS has latency.

Wifi is not a consistent experience. It's just not stable enough. I'm not debating. I'm stating facts.

 

[Shaya]

Match up... "ideas"? Yes.

Basis for how match ups will actually work out or be played? Nah. Every frame counts in a Smash game.

 

[Kibzu~]

Emblem lord could we play a set of marth? i want to improve with him ;-;

 

[Kinslayer]

Match up... "ideas"? Yes.

Basis for how match ups will actually work out or be played? Nah. Every frame counts in a Smash game.

Ehhhh. If you said kof or guilty gear I might have agreed. Any game you want every frame there, but smash isn't particularly execution heavy. Even wave dashing isn't as hard as people made it seem. FRCing consistently is a pain in the ass tiger kneeing > FRCing stuff with Ky a pain and don't make me start on testament and his bull.
The game has technical aspects, but not so much so that it is impossible to play without every single frame.

 

[Satan-]

http://www.twitch.tv/nakat973/b/584684283?t=115m59s

Me vs Nakat in a B05. If the link doesn't take you to the proper time, it starts at 116 minutes...

I played very sloppy during our set until the 3rd game

 

[Signia]

Ehhhh. If you said kof or guilty gear I might have agreed. Any game you want every frame there, but smash isn't particularly execution heavy. Even wave dashing isn't as hard as people made it seem. FRCing consistently is a pain in the *** tiger kneeing > FRCing stuff with Ky a pain and don't make me start on testament and his bull.
The game has technical aspects, but not so much so that it is impossible to play without every single frame.

A lot of execution-heavy stuff in other fighting games can be learned from muscle memory, not visual cues. If you input the first attack at the right time, then the rest of the moves are pressed in relation to the timing of the first one, the lag doesn't matter.

In Smash games, though, timing is always different. You have to eyeball almost every timing, and lag causes a discrepancy between the timing of the button press and it happening on screen.

Another thing, lag loosens the neutral/footsies game by making reactions slow, in every fighting game. It's an even bigger deal in Smash since that's practically all it has. Everything else, like aerial chasing and edgeguarding is also a reactive spacing game that's ruined by lag.

But if you ask me, all fighting games are ruined by lag. Soul Calibur V is pretty good though. Yay best netcode + slow game + buffer windows + not combo-focused.

 

[Kinslayer]

A lot of execution-heavy stuff in other fighting games can be learned from muscle memory, not visual cues. If you input the first attack at the right time, then the rest of the moves are pressed in relation to the timing of the first one, the lag doesn't matter.

In Smash games, though, timing is always different. You have to eyeball almost every timing, and lag causes a discrepancy between the timing of the button press and it happening on screen.

Another thing, lag loosens the neutral/footsies game by making reactions slow, in every fighting game. It's an even bigger deal in Smash since that's practically all it has. Everything else, like aerial chasing and edgeguarding is also a reactive spacing game that's ruined by lag.

But if you ask me, all fighting games are ruined by lag. Soul Calibur V is pretty good though. Yay best netcode + slow game + buffer windows + not combo-focused.

We can agree to disagree there. Lag messes with frc in guilty gear since they have to be frame perfect which is a lot harder than anything this game has. If lag didn't effect input speed or reading rather it wouldn't really be considered an issue. Lag effecrs the timing the input is received and displayed on the screen not the input itself.

Any game with juggle combos is generslly going to have visual cues or points where muscle memory doesn't matter and you need to visually see where the opponent is to know what starter or ender to to use on a combo. If you don't believe me play marvel, guilty, blaz, King of fighters. This game isn't nearly as technical as any of the ones I've mentioned.

Hell blocking in all games is ruined by lag

 

[Signia]

We can agree to disagree there. Lag messes with frc in guilty gear since they have to be frame perfect which is a lot harder than anything this game has. If lag didn't effect input speed or reading rather it wouldn't really be considered an issue. Lag effecrs the timing the input is received and displayed on the screen not the input itself.

Any game with juggle combos is generslly going to have visual cues or points where muscle memory doesn't matter and you need to visually see where the opponent is to know what starter or ender to to use on a combo. If you don't believe me play marvel, guilty, blaz, King of fighters. This game isn't nearly as technical as any of the ones I've mentioned.

Hell blocking in all games is ruined by lag

Yeah I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote this. Certain things can be done with muscle memory but trying to hit 1-2 frame timings in lag is pretty futile.

 

[_Relapse_]

Can all the videos posted so far be added ot the main post?

 

[JaegerEC]

Gonna post some pretty good match videos later on today when I get the chance since there's been barely any match videos posted in this thread >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

Someone post something and I will give a full critique. Fully in-depth and all that jazz.

 

[Random4811]

http://www.twitch.tv/jed05/b/581537934 Jed05's follower friday tourney from October 24/25th.
I have matches at 1:31:09 and 2:55:56 if you guys want to look at them.
I know against Samus, I did pretty well with my bigger mistake being that I tried to punish the nooby ZSS with stupidly placed Shield breakers, and they took advantage of that. Otherwise, my counters were pretty spot on, and I didnt need to do much else because I baited them into doing what I wanted for the most part. Against the WFT, I did rather well but there were like, 2 periods where I have no idea what I was doing. I think, as Jed said, I was taking it easy because of the easy opposition, and they took advantage of that. I 2-stocked the Samus, I believe, and I won pretty decisively against WFT. One of my bigger problems, I think, is back then I rolled way too much, and instead I could have been doing other, more important things. As well, I'm not sure if I shield at all. XD This was a few weeks ago, and I've feel like learned a lot since then. I'd still like some critique if you guys have time, because I do still use a lot of how I play here. I've just expanded on what I do and how I do it.

Also, if you guys want to laugh your ass off at a match, watch my last match against Jed at 03:32:17. I am very scared of his bowser because he is prone to bowsercide. Other than that, he is rather scary. Plus the nerves of fighting the streamer added to the nerves of fighting in a tourney for the second time, I just shut down. It is literally the worst I've ever played.

 

[JaegerEC]

Someone post something and I will give a full critique. Fully in-depth and all that jazz.

oh bby. I'll edit this post with a match or two

 

[GREGORE]

Me (GE) VS KayJay

And a nice kill...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Random4811: It would have been you, but twitch archives don't agree with my old pc. I was getting alot of slowdown. Couldn't accurately see what was happening. Sorry buddy.

GREGORE: I will be looking at the first match vs Samus. Here we go.

I do match break downs by range zones, general advice, and what you need to work on specifically. Let's continue.

Long Range

You didn't ever let her sit at this range for long. You got in and for the most part you stayed in. Good. That's what you want vs a zoner like Samus. Block her stuff intelligently. Cancel dashes with shields. Intelligent use of jumps and rolls. Nothing much to say. Good job.

Mid Range

You did very well here. You walled well with full hop fairs, SH nairs and d-tilts. You shut down approaches with f-tilts too. I saw solid mid range poke based gameplay. The essence of a Marth with a strong foundation. Any player that can grasp the basics like you can only get stronger. I would love to see more jabs though. Fastest button Marth has at 4 frames. Good recovery. Decent damage for a jab. Shuts down short hop approaches and safer then f-tilt on block. Still very solid overall.

Close Range

Made good use of grabs and I saw a little DB. Jab is better at this range. DB is now 7 frames while jab remains at 4. Not alot of panic rolling which is good, but I did see some very bad rolls. For example you rolled towards Samus or more then one occasion when it wasn't needed and it put your back to the edge. Not smart. Stay focused and in control at this range. Blocking and then doing a Dolphin Slash is a strong defensive option to reset your spacing and get your enemy away from you.

Traps/Edge guarding

This is where I see where you are lacking. You weren't aggressive off stage for the most part, which is a stark contrast to such an aggressive brickwalling style you seem to have. You gotta go after your opponent. Make them WORK for that ledge. Especially since you did a GREAT job of keeping Samus on the ledge. You did EXACTLY what Marth wants to do but you didn't capitalize on your reward. If a Marth player doesn't make the best of the trap situations he puts his opponents in you might as well play Ike because all you are doing is knocking people around with your sword and Ike does that alot better. I also didn't see alot of d-tilt trap baits. You used it primarily to poke which is fine, but now its Marth's only reliable trap starter so it's imperative that the d-tilt trap be mastered. Check this qoute for d-tilt trap explanation.

Decision making/Punishing

I saw several missed opportunities. It's just a matter of reacting better and knowing your opponents percents so you know when to go for the kill.

D-tilt Trap In-depth

By abusing D-tilts IASA frames or "interruptible As Soon As" its possible to create very tight traps that are difficult to escape. If this move is shielded, spot dodged or rolled away from Marth/Lucina remain in a strong position to punish or remain in control. Spot dodge is a free almost any punish you want granted you are fast enough to react. Roll behind means grab or Dancing Blade. Shielded means you can do another, Shield Breaker, dash grab or simply...wait. More then likely your opponent will roll. Roll away you can punish with dash dancing blade but only those with the fastest of reaction times will get this punish consistently. If they shield drop and attempt to attack you can just AA them with f-tilt or f-smash if you want the stock and they have enough percent.

When you have your opponents on the ledge btw, the key is to give them just enough room to hang themselves. Position yourself just outside of their ledge get up attack. You can now on reaction cover virtually any option they choose. Just watch, wait and be ready to react instantly. Constantly full jumping and fairing won't accomplishing anything.

Also I'm not a fan of u-throwing Samus. Shes good at getting out of air traps thanks to bombs. Just f-throw or b-throw. Possible instant ledge trap scenario. Much greater potential for reward. It's also just easier to ledge trap than it is to air-to-land trap.

General Advice
- More jab
- Work on traps and master the d-tilt trap
- More aggressive off stage edge guarding. You got your last kill due to this, so clearly it works.
- More Dancing Blade to punish when you are coming out of a run. Use up version more
- Greater focus on transitioning into more advanced gameplay and manipulating your opponent with your actions
- More f-throw/b-throw to go for the ledge trap

The fact that your fundamentals are sound really meant I didn't need to go too in-depth here. You really do have a solid neutral game and thats a HUGE part of being successful with Marth. good stuff.

 

[JaegerEC]

FINALLY got around to uploading some matches. Let me know what you think!

 

[megamain]

Here Are some of mine.

http://youtu.be/pjXS9tPo1V4

http://youtu.be/GBUV10aKjeg

http://youtu.be/Fa6KdtEHJbw

 

[GREGORE]

Random4811: It would have been you, but twitch archives don't agree with my old pc. I was getting alot of slowdown. Couldn't accurately see what was happening. Sorry buddy.

GREGORE: I will be looking at the first match vs Samus. Here we go.

I do match break downs by range zones, general advice, and what you need to work on specifically. Let's continue.

Long Range

You didn't ever let her sit at this range for long. You got in and for the most part you stayed in. Good. That's what you want vs a zoner like Samus. Block her stuff intelligently. Cancel dashes with shields. Intelligent use of jumps and rolls. Nothing much to say. Good job.

Mid Range

You did very well here. You walled well with full hop fairs, SH nairs and d-tilts. You shut down approaches with f-tilts too. I saw solid mid range poke based gameplay. The essence of a Marth with a strong foundation. Any player that can grasp the basics like you can only get stronger. I would love to see more jabs though. Fastest button Marth has at 4 frames. Good recovery. Decent damage for a jab. Shuts down short hop approaches and safer then f-tilt on block. Still very solid overall.

Close Range

Made good use of grabs and I saw a little DB. Jab is better at this range. DB is now 7 frames while jab remains at 4. Not alot of panic rolling which is good, but I did see some very bad rolls. For example you rolled towards Samus or more then one occasion when it wasn't needed and it put your back to the edge. Not smart. Stay focused and in control at this range. Blocking and then doing a Dolphin Slash is a strong defensive option to reset your spacing and get your enemy away from you.

Traps/Edge guarding

This is where I see where you are lacking. You weren't aggressive off stage for the most part, which is a stark contrast to such an aggressive brickwalling style you seem to have. You gotta go after your opponent. Make them WORK for that ledge. Especially since you did a GREAT job of keeping Samus on the ledge. You did EXACTLY what Marth wants to do but you didn't capitalize on your reward. If a Marth player doesn't make the best of the trap situations he puts his opponents in you might as well play Ike because all you are doing is knocking people around with your sword and Ike does that alot better. I also didn't see alot of d-tilt trap baits. You used it primarily to poke which is fine, but now its Marth's only reliable trap starter so it's imperative that the d-tilt trap be mastered. Check this qoute for d-tilt trap explanation.

Decision making/Punishing

I saw several missed opportunities. It's just a matter of reacting better and knowing your opponents percents so you know when to go for the kill.



When you have your opponents on the ledge btw, the key is to give them just enough room to hang themselves. Position yourself just outside of their ledge get up attack. You can now on reaction cover virtually any option they choose. Just watch, wait and be ready to react instantly. Constantly full jumping and fairing won't accomplishing anything.

Also I'm not a fan of u-throwing Samus. Shes good at getting out of air traps thanks to bombs. Just f-throw or b-throw. Possible instant ledge trap scenario. Much greater potential for reward. It's also just easier to ledge trap than it is to air-to-land trap.

General Advice
- More jab
- Work on traps and master the d-tilt trap
- More aggressive off stage edge guarding. You got your last kill due to this, so clearly it works.
- More Dancing Blade to punish when you are coming out of a run. Use up version more
- Greater focus on transitioning into more advanced gameplay and manipulating your opponent with your actions
- More f-throw/b-throw to go for the ledge trap

The fact that your fundamentals are sound really meant I didn't need to go too in-depth here. You really do have a solid neutral game and thats a HUGE part of being successful with Marth. good stuff.

Emblem Lord, thank u very much for your time and good Analysis.

Ur right in all parts. (But this is a very bad Match from me, in all other Matches i am much more aggressive off stage)
Samus off stage recovery is very very good... so i didnt want to risk my own stock because Samus has to hit me only one time off stage and i will lose 1 stock ;(

Thanks for the d-tilt trap tip! I will learn it ^^

I hope i will use dancing blades more often.... (i did in brawl) but in Sm4sh they are so laggy ;((

PS: I hope u understood my bad english

Thanks again, greets Gregor.

 

[Random4811]

Random4811: It would have been you, but twitch archives don't agree with my old pc. I was getting alot of slowdown. Couldn't accurately see what was happening. Sorry buddy.

GREGORE: I will be looking at the first match vs Samus. Here we go.

I do match break downs by range zones, general advice, and what you need to work on specifically. Let's continue.

Long Range

You didn't ever let her sit at this range for long. You got in and for the most part you stayed in. Good. That's what you want vs a zoner like Samus. Block her stuff intelligently. Cancel dashes with shields. Intelligent use of jumps and rolls. Nothing much to say. Good job.

Mid Range

You did very well here. You walled well with full hop fairs, SH nairs and d-tilts. You shut down approaches with f-tilts too. I saw solid mid range poke based gameplay. The essence of a Marth with a strong foundation. Any player that can grasp the basics like you can only get stronger. I would love to see more jabs though. Fastest button Marth has at 4 frames. Good recovery. Decent damage for a jab. Shuts down short hop approaches and safer then f-tilt on block. Still very solid overall.

Close Range

Made good use of grabs and I saw a little DB. Jab is better at this range. DB is now 7 frames while jab remains at 4. Not alot of panic rolling which is good, but I did see some very bad rolls. For example you rolled towards Samus or more then one occasion when it wasn't needed and it put your back to the edge. Not smart. Stay focused and in control at this range. Blocking and then doing a Dolphin Slash is a strong defensive option to reset your spacing and get your enemy away from you.

Traps/Edge guarding

This is where I see where you are lacking. You weren't aggressive off stage for the most part, which is a stark contrast to such an aggressive brickwalling style you seem to have. You gotta go after your opponent. Make them WORK for that ledge. Especially since you did a GREAT job of keeping Samus on the ledge. You did EXACTLY what Marth wants to do but you didn't capitalize on your reward. If a Marth player doesn't make the best of the trap situations he puts his opponents in you might as well play Ike because all you are doing is knocking people around with your sword and Ike does that alot better. I also didn't see alot of d-tilt trap baits. You used it primarily to poke which is fine, but now its Marth's only reliable trap starter so it's imperative that the d-tilt trap be mastered. Check this qoute for d-tilt trap explanation.

Decision making/Punishing

I saw several missed opportunities. It's just a matter of reacting better and knowing your opponents percents so you know when to go for the kill.



When you have your opponents on the ledge btw, the key is to give them just enough room to hang themselves. Position yourself just outside of their ledge get up attack. You can now on reaction cover virtually any option they choose. Just watch, wait and be ready to react instantly. Constantly full jumping and fairing won't accomplishing anything.

Also I'm not a fan of u-throwing Samus. Shes good at getting out of air traps thanks to bombs. Just f-throw or b-throw. Possible instant ledge trap scenario. Much greater potential for reward. It's also just easier to ledge trap than it is to air-to-land trap.

General Advice
- More jab
- Work on traps and master the d-tilt trap
- More aggressive off stage edge guarding. You got your last kill due to this, so clearly it works.
- More Dancing Blade to punish when you are coming out of a run. Use up version more
- Greater focus on transitioning into more advanced gameplay and manipulating your opponent with your actions
- More f-throw/b-throw to go for the ledge trap

The fact that your fundamentals are sound really meant I didn't need to go too in-depth here. You really do have a solid neutral game and thats a HUGE part of being successful with Marth. good stuff.

No worries. Your post is informative enough to me, I think, because it is giving me foundation on what I can do to have good Marth game

 

[Emblem Lord]

megamain

Looked at the first vid and pretty much saw all I needed to see. What I got from you was a general lack of focus. Your Marth didn't seem to have a cohesive gameplan. It lacked that popular buzzword so often used by fighting game players..."flow". Your Marth moved very unnaturally in my eyes and I saw many poor decisions, which adds weight to my thoughts that you are not fully comfortable with Marth.

What I feel you need to focus on in general is just making smarter decisions. When you attack, don't just hit buttons but think about how you want to attack, where and why. What are the consequences if you miss? Are you attacking because it's a good option or just because you see a shield? Are you choosing the best attack option in your given scenario? Case in point forward smashing a shield a point blank range is most certainly not an intelligent option. But you did it.

I will quote something I wrote several years ago back in Brawl's golden age but the general information still applies here.

The Three States of Gameplay

At any given moment in ANY fighting game, the fight will be in one of three states. I will go over each and talk about the options available to you in each one. Since Brawl lacks combos and due to the nature of the game there is constant switching between the three states, even more so then other fighters. Momentum is constantly shifting and true mastery of this game will require you to understand these three states and how your options are affected in each.

The Neutral State

The most common state. In this state all of your options are available to you. You can do as you please. You can walk, roll, jump, smash or what have you. It's also the most important state in the game because what you do in this state will decide how often you end up in the other two states which WILL decide how often you **** and how often you get your a$$ handed to you on a silver platter. As I said before, in this state you can do as you please, but that doesn't mean you should. This state is where I will first truly get into what it means to play smart and to do that I will talk about two important concepts. The first is spacing and the second is risk vs reward. Spacing is EXTREMELY important in Brawl. It can be the difference between attacking a shield safely or getting punished and dying early. Some characters like Marth live and die by their spacing and are rewarded when they space correctly. (Marth's attacks are more powerful at the tip of his blade) But even if you don't play a character like Marth, spacing is still of the utmost importance. Attacks are safer on block when spaced at the very end of the attack. Otherwise alot of them can be punished by a shield grab or a shield drop attack.

Spacing isn't just for your attacks though. It also affects what you and your opponent will do when you are in the neutral state. If you are spaced about 1 character length from Pit, he is much less likely to shoot an arrow at you. Why? Because you are really close to him. If he tries that you can shield and punish him, and Pit doesn't want that. Instead he is more likely to try to attack with d-tilt, dash attack, jab or grab. Your spacing directly affected Pit's options. And that's important to remember. Whatever you do to space yourself, will also space your opponent. And know that each character has their own optimal spacing for their own personal options and for their match-ups as well. So when you SH back to give yourself some breathing room and you're up against a Falco, be aware that Falco will more then likely just do SHDL, since you so kindly gave him the optimal spacing he needed to use that option. Always be aware of your spacing and your opponent's options at w/e range you are at.

The next concept is risk vs reward. Whenever you do an action, you need to ask yourself a question. That question is, "Is this worth the risk?" You ask yourself this because it can and will save you from doing something stupid alot of the time. Movements or actions that have very high risk with lower reward should be avoided. A good example of a move like that is Ganondorf's Warlock Punch. This move is very bad. It has very slow start-up time and it's not even safe on block. Looking at risk vs reward is the easiest way to tell if a move is good. Think of any good move you can and you will realize that for every one of those moves the reward outweighed the risk. That's what makes the moves so good. And by always having risk vs reward in the back of your mind, you can eliminate unnecessary risks from your gameplay and you will see vast improvement.

Something else that will affect the risk vs reward ratio is your percent in relation to your opponent. If your percent is lower and your opponent's is higher, then all of your attack options become less risky and more rewarding since an attack from you becomes more likely to be a kill or an edge guarding set-up since they will fly farther. You may also find yourself using smash attacks a little more liberally since if you get punished it's not as big of a deal since your percent is low. Always keep your percent in mind because it's another factor that affects the battle.

Well, now that we went over that we can go back to your options in the neutral state. Now you have an understanding of spacing and risk vs reward. So if you and your opponent are standing close to one another do you think it's a good idea to randomly roll towards them or throw out a laggy move and hope it hits? Of course not. So...don't do it. Do something...smart. If you play MK why not just walk up and f-tilt once or twice. If you play Falco shoot some lasers. If you play Snake pull out some nades. Do something that's going to allow you to test the waters a bit without putting yourself in any danger. And have a plan in your head as to what you will do according to what your opponent's response will be. The field of battle is ever changing and you must keep up or you will be swept away.


The State of Advantage

This is when one person has gained control over the other and now has momentum. The most obvious example of this is when one character has another in a combo. Clearly the aggressor has the advantage. But having the advantage can be much more subtle then that and it often is. Being at an advantage can be as simple as when you are put on the defensive because your opponent is shooting projectiles at you. Your opponent now controls the pace of the match and you must figure out a way past their projectiles. Characters that can hit this state with a fair amount of ease are of course, the top tier characters. The easiest one I can think of when it comes to this sort of thing is Falco. When Falco does SHDL he instantly has advantage. Now his opponent is in a position where they have to react and try to get around his control. Forcing an action with a quick and safe poke move is another way to gain advantage. It eats at your opponent's shield and forces them to think fast and respond. The interesting thing about Brawl is that since there is very little hitstun in this game combos are far and few in between. So that means other then pressing the advantage so you can net a combo, there is a another goal in mind when comboing is no longer possible.. That goal is to hold onto your advantage for as long as possible. This is more difficult then it sounds. It can be tough to try to force responses from your opponent when they are in the air for example while still remaining in control. Thanks to the airdodge system the aggressor can go from being in control to losing control to their opponent in an instant if their opponent airdodges past them and then retaliates. This is why it's important to know when to back off a bit when you are at an advantage depending on the situation. Don't become overzealous if you know your opponent is in a situation where the tide can turn in an instant and since this is Brawl that will usually be the case. You need to do an action that will allow you to force a response without putting yourself in danger. Either that or just wait a bit in order to bait a response. While having advantage the risk vs reward ratio is in your favor since you are in control. There is much less of a chance of you being punished and you have a greater reward if your attacks connect since you will keep your advantage. Spacing is also in your favor as well since your opponent will have less options as they are on the defensive.

Just so we are clear, there are multiple states of advantage. I will list them. When your opponent is in a combo, when your opponent is high in the air or has been put into the air by you, when your opponent is on the ledge, when your opponent is lying on the ground and when your opponent is off the stage. Knowing your options and what your opponents options are in each situation is pivotal for staying in control and keeping your advantage going. And if your opponent manages to get out of your control, don't be reckless and put yourself in unnecessary danger to regain your control. You need to let the situation go back to neutral because that's alot better then being put at disadvantage which I will talk about next.


The State of Disadvantage

This state is the opposite of being at advantage. When one player is at advantage the other is at disadvantage. This is the state you don't want to be in and the state you will find yourself in the most when you first start out. Get used to it and know how to get out of it. The key to dealing with this state is just like the other states. Knowing your options. When you are at disadvantage you still have plenty of options. If you are on the ledge you can roll, get up, get up attack, ledge hop attack, ledge jump and your character may have character specific options like special moves that are useful in that scenario. If you are being comboed/attacked you can use DI and SDI to try to get out of the combo or maneuver yourself farther away so you can regain your footing. There are options in EVERY scenario and you must be able to think fast and act quickly to take control of the match and get advantage. Otherwise you'll get rocked. This different states of disadvantage are the inverse of the states of advantage. Basically w/e state of advantage the aggressor is in, the defender is the one in the same state only he is the one dealing with being under the control of the one who has advantage.

Remember that in this state the concept of risk vs reward is present just like the others and so is spacing. Options will change according to how close you are to your opponent and what situation you are in. As always eliminate risky options that will get you killed easily. Go with what is safe and effective. If you are in the air then airdodging and fast falling to get to the ground quickly should be at the forefront of your mind. Since you are in a bad spot the risk vs reward ratio is now skewed in favor of your opponent. You would do well to remember that. And as always, try not to be dumb about it. If you are lying on the ground and your opponent is shielding, do you really think it's a good idea to do a get up attack so your opponent can block it and then you get your face rearranged? Of course it's not a good idea, but I see it in real tournament matches and tournament vids all the time. Remember...just think smart and act on it.

Link to the original thread is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-your-options-an-article-on-playing-smart.206225/

What I want to do is for you to expand your awareness. You made alot of errors but I feel its because you don't have a clear picture of what you should be doing and how you should be playing. That's fine. For now focus on getting more comfortable with Marth and understanding those concepts I laid out. I will leave you with some basic advice based on the vid I watched and relate it back to risk vs reward which I discussed in the article.

DON'T DO THESE THINGS

- Roll towards your opponent during neutral for no reason
- Full hop Dair a shielding opponent
- Random Shield Breaker at close range
- Forward smash a shield opponent at point blank
- Shield Breaker to punish at low percents (Unless it will tipper and set-up for an easy edge guard situation)
- Land with a Fair at point blank

All of these things you did carry huge risk and low reward. Not worth it and I did not sense that you had a clean read on your opponent, but rather you were just doing these things reflexively.

Instead of doing these things, try to think of more intelligent and safer options for those scenarios. If you block an attack and your opponent is at kill percents then an U-smash out of shield is optimal. This is just one example.

Think beyond. And do not feel like I'm chastising you. Rather than give easy answers, it is far more effective for me to get you thinking on a higher level. You will see vast improvement this way and the way you see the game will change drastically.

 

[megamain]

Thanks for that analysis! I didn't get that you were chastising me at all and I like advice like this because it'll only make me better. I have been realizing that I do most of my actions strictly based on muscle memory. I'll try to follow your advice for a tournament coming up and I'll let you know how I did.

 

[JaegerEC]

Gonna upload some more videos before the update and I can't access them anymore ;__;