Hero ban

[NuzTheMonkey]

Isn’t that scene like only 50-60 people? I guess if majority just doesn’t want to play against it, they won’t. Not very big implication for us here.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Instead of making them less frequent, they need to make them weaker or just remove them altogether. There's no reason Hero should get critical hits when every other RPG character makes do without them.

And what Thwack and Magic Burst have that the F-smashes lack is a stupidly huge hitbox. Rushdown is a bit more difficult when your opponent outranges you by that much.

You still don't want to be using Thwack or Magic Burst in neutral though, there's a ton of time of time to block or stuff them out. Then even on the off chance that Thwack hits, it won't be killing at low percents most of the time anyway.

Magic Burst will consume all of Hero's MP, leaving him wide open if you manage to avoid it. You only ever really want to use that move at the ledge (where admittedly, it can be kind of dumb).

Even with their hitboxes they're still reactable. They aren't neutral tools.

 

[Davidk92]

Why is it that as soon, AS SOON as any Smash character demonstrates anything even SLIGHTLY unorthodox, people jump on the "NO FAIR BAN NOW" train?

He's not even been out a month. Get a grip.

 

[TennisBall]

Once again, having two Switches that can connect to each other while docked is literally all that's needed to fix the entire Language Barrier. Any larger tourney will have more than one console(at least on average). The fix isn't hard to deal with.

Though I once again ask from more seasoned Switch users; can you connect two consoles(that are on monitors) together offline, or do you need paid online? If it's paid online, I can understand some TO's deciding to stick with the Language-based ban.

Well in that case, the only complaint I would have is the random crits. I guess he doesn't need to banned in my personal opinion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well in that case, the only complaint I would have is the random crits. I guess he doesn't need to banned in my personal opinion.

I get that Australia is a smaller tournament area, so them banning it is one thing.

That said, yeah, the Criticals are a bit much. But it's part of what I like about him. It's something among all the RPG characters we don't have. RNG is a common RPG mechanic, and this is the first character exclusively from RPG's first to get it. More tweaking to balance him would be good, though.

I agree he shouldn't be banned as long as we got the Switch issue fixed. I don't think removing the random crits is needed. But I can agree with reducing their power a bit, as well as reducing how often they can happen. It's a matter of whether you should be allowed to manipulate Criticals via your Down B, though...

 

[TennisBall]

It's a matter of whether you should be allowed to manipulate Criticals via your Down B, though...

Now that's not an awful idea if you could tweak it to not make it unfair.

 

[EGsmash]

Once again, having two Switches that can connect to each other while docked is literally all that's needed to fix the entire Language Barrier. Any larger tourney will have more than one console(at least on average). The fix isn't hard to deal with.

Though I once again ask from more seasoned Switch users; can you connect two consoles(that are on monitors) together offline, or do you need paid online? If it's paid online, I can understand some TO's deciding to stick with the Language-based ban.

I cannot find any documentation (at least on page 1 of Google) that suggests this is possible. I don't think Smash is Lan enabled. This is really an accessibility issue that Nintendo needs to fix rather than putting it on TO's trying to cobble together equipment setups just to accommodate one single new character. Isn't it easier for Nintendo to push out a small patch that adds icons to each spell rather than have every tournament try to figure out alternate hardware setups?

 

[NerFox]

I have mixed feelings about Hero. I think he has a unique and creative moveset but on the other hand he feels unfair to play against and is difficult to play around imo. There are several characters that aren't the most fun to go against but with them at least you know what to expect which allows for counterplay instead of Hero giving opponents a lot of pressure just because his down-B exists and is so unpredictable. If he gets banned I would feel sad for all DQ fans who finally got their characters but can't even use them in tournaments. Personally I think he's also kinda OP but that's my own opinion. I don't know if he is ACTUALLY overpowered. I just hope they can tone him down and/or make changes so a ban won't be necessary.

So my vote goes to "Wait and see". Banning a character should be always avoided unless they're really causing problems in the competitive scene.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

I find the discussion going on quite fascinating, especially regarding Hero's gameplay. So many people are arguing whether his kit has counterplay, or whether a move is reactable, and I find it quite ironic.
In my opinion, debating this topic is much less useful than actually having it play out, as that's how a meta develops.
A picture is worth 1000 words, and I think this one speaks a lot. It's going back to MSC's video on banning.

Right now, we're on the very first level, Tactic A, dealing with individual moves and nothing else (Thwack, Magic Burst, Crit Smashes). One might argue that Counter A doesn't exist. If this is the case, the question then surfaces, "How long should we give the community to find a counter?" This opinion can vary greatly.
With Hero specifically, there is another aspect to consider. What if Tactic A relies on RNG? What if a Mega-Mushroom Hocus-Pocus Magic Burst is literally unavoidable? Should we let it slide because it only can happen less than 1% of all interactions?
In my opinion, if fishing for a Mega-Mushroom Hocus-Pocus Magic Burst is viable, basically meaning that it is a well-known tactic to get you far in tournaments, it should be banned, as it has no counterplay AND it can achieve you consistent results. If this was the case, it would practically guarantee that this would over-centralize the metagame.
Another topic worth bringing up is the concept of fairness. This, in my opinion, is an easy thing to find. If Hero is truly unfair, then top Hero players will have more inconsistent tournaments than other top players.
I'm going to use MVD as an example. In May, he participated in 3 tournaments. He got 2nd, 16th, and 4th. If a Hero main got very strange placings in a short timespan, something wild like 2nd, 128th, and 32nd, at similar tiered tournaments, then it would be a red flag that individual skill wasn't as much of a factor as it should be.
(sidenote, I know that in some examples, getting a lower placement is better, i.e. it's better to get 16th at EVO than 2nd at a local)
However, I think that no judgments can be made thus far, since I just don't think the data is available to draw any conclusions just yet.

 

[Necro'lic]

I find the discussion going on quite fascinating, especially regarding Hero's gameplay. So many people are arguing whether his kit has counterplay, or whether a move is reactable, and I find it quite ironic.
In my opinion, debating this topic is much less useful than actually having it play out, as that's how a meta develops.
A picture is worth 1000 words, and I think this one speaks a lot. It's going back to MSC's video on banning.
View attachment 235309
Right now, we're on the very first level, Tactic A, dealing with individual moves and nothing else (Thwack, Magic Burst, Crit Smashes). One might argue that Counter A doesn't exist. If this is the case, the question then surfaces, "How long should we give the community to find a counter?" This opinion can vary greatly.
With Hero specifically, there is another aspect to consider. What if Tactic A relies on RNG? What if a Mega-Mushroom Hocus-Pocus Magic Burst is literally unavoidable? Should we let it slide because it only can happen less than 1% of all interactions?
In my opinion, if fishing for a Mega-Mushroom Hocus-Pocus Magic Burst is viable, basically meaning that it is a well-known tactic to get you far in tournaments, it should be banned, as it has no counterplay AND it can achieve you consistent results. If this was the case, it would practically guarantee that this would over-centralize the metagame.
Another topic worth bringing up is the concept of fairness. This, in my opinion, is an easy thing to find. If Hero is truly unfair, then top Hero players will have more inconsistent tournaments than other top players.
I'm going to use MVD as an example. In May, he participated in 3 tournaments. He got 2nd, 16th, and 4th. If a Hero main got very strange placings in a short timespan, something wild like 2nd, 128th, and 32nd, at similar tiered tournaments, then it would be a red flag that individual skill wasn't as much of a factor as it should be.
(sidenote, I know that in some examples, getting a lower placement is better, i.e. it's better to get 16th at EVO than 2nd at a local)
However, I think that no judgments can be made thus far, since I just don't think the data is available to draw any conclusions just yet.

I think this is the biggest argument against the ban. Whether or not they ban Hero based on being "anti-competitive" or a reason that isn't complete trash, like actual results, we just do not have enough data to work with from any angle.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I've been thinking on it a bit and I just wanted to throw out that just because you don't know if Hero is going to have a move or not doesn't mean you can't anticipate or play around it. Back when I played competitive Pokemon, I didn't just pray that Scald didn't trigger it's 30% burn rate when I swapped into it, I usually just swapped in a pokemon who didn't mind being burned so much just be safe. Besides, there's always a bit of uncertainty to what move your opponent is going to use regardless - in this case this uncertainty just has another layer in RNG. Just remember to treat every option like it's always a possibility.

It could be noted that Hero has a ton of moves but I've found it might help to narrow down what times different moves are good in. Here's some basic categories they might fall into. As a disclaimer, this is all theory craft.

The Projectiles
Bang/Kaboom/Sizz/Sizzle/Whack/Snooze

These moves might have different properties, but they'll always be used at mid to long range and can be beaten either by blocking or jumping over them.

The Big Hitboxes
Flame Slash/Kacrackle Slash/Thwack

These moves will probably either be used either to ledge trap or hit away aggressive players as they approach. Just be mindful about how you approach Hero if he shifts into his thinking animation. They're situational but you should still be prepared for them.

The Buffs
Heal/Oomph/Accelerate/Bounce/Psych Up

These moves will generally be used if Hero has the space to safely select one. If he has said space there's not much you can do to stop him from getting it, but thankfully they are react able after they get set up. Just adapt to each one when it comes out and treat them kind of like Shulk's Monado Arts.


That just leaves you with Kamizake (very slow, situational and always costs Hero his stock), Magic Burst (admittedly problematic but counterplay is being developed - apparently it's teachable), Zoom (solely used for recovery), and Hatchet Man / Hocus Pocus / Metal Slash, which competent players shouldn't use much unless they desperate or aren't taking your seriously.

 

[Xelrog]

The way to not rear-end another driver is to treat EVERY driver as if they might suddenly stop, and keep a safe following distance.

The way to play around RNG is to assume that EVERY hit is a critical hit. That's why I compare Hero's smashes to Ganondorf's so much. It's a simple solution: Just don't get hit by them.

 

[3323]

Once again, having two Switches that can connect to each other while docked is literally all that's needed to fix the entire Language Barrier. Any larger tourney will have more than one console(at least on average). The fix isn't hard to deal with.

Though I once again ask from more seasoned Switch users; can you connect two consoles(that are on monitors) together offline, or do you need paid online? If it's paid online, I can understand some TO's deciding to stick with the Language-based ban.

Forgive me for my ignorance (having never been to a tournament) but isn't that a large assumption? If there's a single instance where there isn't a second switch, that's not fair to the disadvantaged player. Even if that never happens at the EVO's or Genesis' type of tournaments, what about the midsize, smaller, to local tournaments? Say someone flies to another country to play in a smallish tournament, and their dreams are crushed because they can't read. Also, it's probably annoying to have to accommodate that for the rest of Ultimate's history at all tournaments for one character.

 

[3323]

I've been thinking on it a bit and I just wanted to throw out that just because you don't know if Hero is going to have a move or not doesn't mean you can't anticipate or play around it. Back when I played competitive Pokemon, I didn't just pray that Scald didn't trigger it's 30% burn rate when I swapped into it, I usually just swapped in a pokemon who didn't mind being burned so much just be safe. Besides, there's always a bit of uncertainty to what move your opponent is going to use regardless - in this case this uncertainty just has another layer in RNG. Just remember to treat every option like it's always a possibility.

It could be noted that Hero has a ton of moves but I've found it might help to narrow down what times different moves are good in. Here's some basic categories they might fall into. As a disclaimer, this is all theory craft.

The Projectiles
Bang/Kaboom/Sizz/Sizzle/Whack/Snooze

These moves might have different properties, but they'll always be used at mid to long range and can be beaten either by blocking or jumping over them.

The Big Hitboxes
Flame Slash/Kacrackle Slash/Thwack

These moves will probably either be used either to ledge trap or hit away aggressive players as they approach. Just be mindful about how you approach Hero if he shifts into his thinking animation. They're situational but you should still be prepared for them.

The Buffs
Heal/Oomph/Accelerate/Bounce/Psych Up

These moves will generally be used if Hero has the space to safely select one. If he has said space there's not much you can do to stop him from getting it, but thankfully they are react able after they get set up. Just adapt to each one when it comes out and treat them kind of like Shulk's Monado Arts.


That just leaves you with Kamizake (very slow, situational and always costs Hero his stock), Magic Burst (admittedly problematic but counterplay is being developed - apparently it's teachable), Zoom (solely used for recovery), and Hatchet Man / Hocus Pocus / Metal Slash, which competent players shouldn't use much unless they desperate or aren't taking your seriously.

So, just play around 6 random projectiles that can be pulled out at a moments notice when your off stage (and glancing at their mp and where your character is). Got it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Forgive me for my ignorance (having never been to a tournament) but isn't that a large assumption? If there's a single instance where there isn't a second switch, that's not fair to the disadvantaged player. Even if that never happens at the EVO's or Genesis' type of tournaments, what about the midsize, smaller, to local tournaments? Say someone flies to another country to play in a smallish tournament, and their dreams are crushed because they can't read. Also, it's probably annoying to have to accommodate that for the rest of Ultimate's history at all tournaments for one character.

That's why it's something that needs to be discussed as a standard. It's not hard for another player to bring a system itself. Otherwise they need to come up with a workaround within the tournament itself. Also, that's why I said "larger tourney". I never said this works for small-end ones. They might not be able to properly work within the limitations of what they have. When situations like these come up, they need to make sure the rules are hard and clear. It's their responsibility to deal with these kind of situations. Of course, once again, it's why a discussion is the best move. A TO by default is supposed to provide all the tools. Basically, they need to do research on various things to avoid problems with a full tourney. Actually posting it online early enough for criticism can easily help resolve these issues fast. There's a lot of good communication out there.

That said, there may be cases where a tourney owner doesn't have any options and has to ban a character/stage/etc. to fit certain situations. It can feel unfair to other players, but the most important part is they're upfront with it in the original advertisements(well, information online among their website/etc.).

(Also, please don't double post. I'll merge your two posts once you see the message and acknowledge it).

 

[ZephyrZ]

So, just play around 6 random projectiles that can be pulled out at a moments notice when your off stage (and glancing at their mp and where your character is). Got it.

...Yes, my entire post was addressing that point. 6 random, non-spammable projectiles with similar counter play to each other.

Sounds to me like you're giving up on trying to figure out Hero counterplay before even trying, which I suppose is to be expected of people who want him banned this early.

 

[Xelrog]

How is dodging a simple, straight-moving projectile while off stage in any way difficult? Do people not know how to air dodge? Hero has to stand perfectly still onstage and telegraph all of them. The only projectile he has that's any kind of threat is his neutral special.

 

[NerFox]

Just don't get hit by them.

Isn't that the same thing SSB4 Bayo mains told people complaining about her broken combos? Just don't get hit and you'll be fine? I mean, to me that sounds a bit silly.

Anyways, maybe Hero is a bit like King K. Rool as in that he has so called "bs" and can be frustrating but isn't actually that good. People thought K. Rool was broken but now he's considered low tier. Maybe the same will happen with Hero?

 

[Xelrog]

Isn't that the same thing SSB4 Bayo mains told people complaining about her broken combos? Just don't get hit and you'll be fine? I mean, to me that sounds a bit silly.

No? If you're going to compare Ganondorf smashes to Bayo's combos, I suppose you're free to, but I wouldn't compare them.

If your response to big sweepy sword smashes isn't "don't get hit," then what is it? Run in headlong and complain that it's uncounterable?

 

[Gryphon827]

I'm for a complete ban. Smash tournaments should be based on mostly skill, with a very low amount of luck. Success with Hero takes no skill; winning a tournament in which Hero is allowed is basically just a lottery, even if you yourself aren't playing him.

A little bit of luck isn't all that bad (i.e. judge, veggie, misfire, etc.), but when a character is completely dependent on luck and can't realistically win without it, that's when it's gone too far.

 

[Necro'lic]

I'm for a complete ban. Smash tournaments should be based on mostly skill, with a very low amount of luck. Success with Hero takes no skill; winning a tournament in which Hero is allowed is basically just a lottery, even if you yourself aren't playing him.

A little bit of luck isn't all that bad (i.e. judge, veggie, misfire, etc.), but when a character is completely dependent on luck and can't realistically win without it, that's when it's gone too far.

How exactly would you even know that Hero is completely dependent on luck with how few matches he's been in competitively? Sounds like you're just making assumptions.

And I'm not sure how skill is the opposite of luck. It's not like Whack or Thwack or the like automatically hit the opponent and thus are without counterplay.

 

[VodkaHaze]

I'm for a complete ban. Smash tournaments should be based on mostly skill, with a very low amount of luck. Success with Hero takes no skill; winning a tournament in which Hero is allowed is basically just a lottery, even if you yourself aren't playing him.

A little bit of luck isn't all that bad (i.e. judge, veggie, misfire, etc.), but when a character is completely dependent on luck and can't realistically win without it, that's when it's gone too far.

I agree that Hero ought to be banned entirely. But saying he takes no skill is like saying it takes no skill to win at poker. All Smash characters take skill to play. It's just he has the most RNG out of all the characters, and getting the most out of him will rely on luck, suck as getting Zoom to recover or Magic Burst to edgeguard.

 

[3323]

That's why it's something that needs to be discussed as a standard. It's not hard for another player to bring a system itself. Otherwise they need to come up with a workaround within the tournament itself. Also, that's why I said "larger tourney". I never said this works for small-end ones. They might not be able to properly work within the limitations of what they have. When situations like these come up, they need to make sure the rules are hard and clear. It's their responsibility to deal with these kind of situations. Of course, once again, it's why a discussion is the best move. A TO by default is supposed to provide all the tools. Basically, they need to do research on various things to avoid problems with a full tourney. Actually posting it online early enough for criticism can easily help resolve these issues fast. There's a lot of good communication out there.

That said, there may be cases where a tourney owner doesn't have any options and has to ban a character/stage/etc. to fit certain situations. It can feel unfair to other players, but the most important part is they're upfront with it in the original advertisements(well, information online among their website/etc.).

(Also, please don't double post. I'll merge your two posts once you see the message and acknowledge it).

Acknowledged.

 

[Wigglerman]

How is dodging a simple, straight-moving projectile while off stage in any way difficult? Do people not know how to air dodge? Hero has to stand perfectly still onstage and telegraph all of them. The only projectile he has that's any kind of threat is his neutral special.

A few of his projectiles can be troublesome. I'd say kaboom, I believe (The one that has the fast travel, vacuum before exploding) is probably the spell I get hit by the most out of anything. When playing Hero, his neutral special is, for sure, his best tool IMO. Level 1 charge can lead into a follow up most of the time, level 2 charge is a great kill option to snipe a recovering foe or just end their stock on stage and level 3 just ends most people from 70% onward. His second best is level 2 side special. Kaboom though I'd say is his third best if you get lucky enough to roll it.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

What I'm pissed about is how people have been completely unwilling to let things play out. As soon as they saw RNG, people were calling for a ban, which is absurd. You have to let a meta develop over time to really gauge the best way to handle a character and even start addressing his issues is to see data and see what really needs to be specifically tweaked. The way you make Hero a viable tournament fighter even with the RNG is to adjust the character's most problematic RNG elements to not cause as many issues with competitive, and you could actually create enough support for something like that as opposed to a ban (We see how split the results are as it stands from this poll, a good portion are going to oppose a ban no matter what). Make a loud enough outcry and Sakurai will address those issues:

-Adjust Whack and Thwack to only be kill moves above 100% (maybe higher, but just starting out we'll put the cutoff there). It eliminates the low RNG kills and becomes a move that you only have to worry about at higher percentages where you should be more prepared for it.
-Adjust the knockback of critical hits so they don't kill so early. Critical Hits are a really cool mechanic that shouldn't be scrapped entirely. Instead, tweaking them to cause more damage but not immediately kill still makes them a valuable and accurate portrayal of such a mechanic without the low percentage RNG kills.
-Adjust his percentages and MP usage on certain moves. This is something we need a lot of data for, but this little adjustment to this area can go a long way to making things all around better.

If we just implemented these changes, then Hero's RNG becomes more or less a non-issue like Peach/Daisy, Luigi, and Mr. Game and Watch. The only lingering issue would be that his spells are random to come out, but he has to stop to use those spells, they consume a lot of MP, and they're unlikely to get their preferred options and can easily screw themselves over, giving some dynamic circumstances to matches with Hero. Hocus Pocus maybe could use some tweaking too, but as it stands, you have to be really damn ballsy to use it in a tournament setting anyway. Those types of RNG can seriously impact the player as much as the opponent and makes for an interesting character. If you're against RNG wholesale though, we're going to have to remove Peach/Daisy, Mr. Game and Watch, and Luigi as well because the anti-RNG argument dictates that much. It's also worth noting that other fighting games have RNG heavy characters and they've not been banned either.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Success with Hero takes no skill;

Challenge a top player to a money match as Hero and then say that again.

I can almost garuntee you you'd lose.

-Adjust Whack and Thwack to only be kill moves above 100% (maybe higher, but just starting out we'll put the cutoff there). It eliminates the low RNG kills and becomes a move that you only have to worry about at higher percentages where you should be more prepared for it.

I doubt they'll change how those moves fundamentally work. What would be more likely to happens is for the instakill rates to drop.

 

[NerFox]

Saying Hero takes no skill is a bit ridiculous lol. He can be really frustrating yes but like all characters he takes at least some amount of skill. Some characters require much more skill than others but I think Hero is not one of the easiest characters to use if you are up against a good player. Down B gives you 4 random options and you have to decide what to do in like 1 or 2 seconds.

I think the balancing suggestions from EricTheGamerman are pretty good.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Challenge a top player to a money match as Hero and then say that again.

I can almost garuntee you you'd lose.

I doubt they'll change how those moves fundamentally work. What would be more likely to happens is for the instakill rates to drop.

Oh Whack and Thwack don’t have to be fundamentally changed to be instant kill moves at a 100+%, just have them have no chance until the higher percentages. They can sill be RNG based, but make them extremely high risk, high reward type moves that can only kill at a high percentage. I know Smash doesn’t go into Overwatch levels of tweaking characters, but this might be the one instance to do this sort of thing in.

And I’m convinced that if we get loud enough and stir up enough support for a specific issue, then we could actually see a patch address something like Hero’s more specific RNG. The issue with things currently is that lots of people disagree with nerfs/buffs, so it’s difficult to get our voice heard on balance changes. The more we unite towards a common goal, the greater the chance we have of seeing changes in the meta that we have directly called for.

 

[Fenrir-Bolt]

His was so funny. I don’t think lame of the criticism I’ve heard on the game is really legitimate though, seriously.

Well the language thing is not that big of a deal at all I think, or at least is a relatively minor gripe. As far as his RNG, I like when things become unpredictable and chaotic like that, but it is a major flaw. It’s the reason I personally like smahs bros though, is the chaotic factor,

 

[TennisBall]

His was so funny. I don’t think lame of the criticism I’ve heard on the game is really legitimate though, seriously.

Well the language thing is not that big of a deal at all I think, or at least is a relatively minor gripe. As far as his RNG, I like when things become unpredictable and chaotic like that, but it is a major flaw. It’s the reason I personally like smahs bros though, is the chaotic factor,

It becomes a bigger deal when people have dyslexia and are unable and react because of something they are unable to control. When we have already proven on the thread that this can be fixed with wireless arenas, this could still prove a problem and reducing an entire language barrier to not a big deal could prove problematic.

 

[link2702]

What I'm pissed about is how people have been completely unwilling to let things play out.

I have 2 issues with this kind of thinking for hero.. One, people have tried to use this argument in the past for controversial characters, most notably Brawl Meta Knight “ we cant ban him yet, the meta needs to develop, there’s not enough data yet, give things more time” etc., and then after delaying and arguing this for so long, those same people then say “we can’t do anything now, the character is too popular, banning him now would be even more detrimental, just leave them legal”, and nothing ever gets done.

But two, and more importantly...people’s biggest issue with hero and why they want him banned, is very different from other controversial characters. It is less him being potentially overpowered and dominating results, and more with just how heavily reliant he is on rng. No other character in smash history has ever been so reliant on rng, aka, luck, in their moveset. Sure We’ve have characters introduced with a move or two with rng in the past, but those characters were never heavily reliant on it. Hero on the other hand has it interwoven so much into his moveset and playstyle that it’s kinda hard to ignore it. The community has for years tried to stamp out as much luck as possible, but we now have a character who’s core design revolves on it.

 

[Necro'lic]

It is less him being potentially overpowered and dominating results, and more with just how heavily reliant he is on rng. No other character in smash history has ever been so reliant on rng, aka, luck, in their moveset. Sure We’ve have characters introduced with a move or two with rng in the past, but those characters were never heavily reliant on it.

This is yet to be seen honestly. Having RNG, even multiple mechanics of it, doesn't suddenly mean "reliant" on it. As people have noticed, his other three specials are plenty strong as is, and smash attacks, crits or not, do not win a tournament or even a match, especially when he can't reliably combo into them.

But of course, people don't actually want to know if he is actually reliant on it, because they've already made up their minds that Hero is broken, and nothing will change their minds anyway.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I have 2 issues with this kind of thinking for hero.. One, people have tried to use this argument in the past for controversial characters, most notably Brawl Meta Knight “ we cant ban him yet, the meta needs to develop, there’s not enough data yet, give things more time” etc., and then after delaying and arguing this for so long, those same people then say “we can’t do anything now, the character is too popular, banning him now would be even more detrimental, just leave them legal”, and nothing ever gets done.

But two, and more importantly...people’s biggest issue with hero and why they want him banned, is very different from other controversial characters. It is less him being potentially overpowered and dominating results, and more with just how heavily reliant he is on rng. No other character in smash history has ever been so reliant on rng, aka, luck, in their moveset. Sure We’ve have characters introduced with a move or two with rng in the past, but those characters were never heavily reliant on it. Hero on the other hand has it interwoven so much into his moveset and playstyle that it’s kinda hard to ignore it. The community has for years tried to stamp out as much luck as possible, but we now have a character who’s core design revolves on it.

You’ve just described all the more reason to wait and see. This character doesn’t fit into the same patterns of any prior ones, and we have no idea which elements of his kit are truly the most problematic and how he needs to be tuned. Banning him immediately essentially means you intend to ban him forever instead of actually working to achieve some sort of fix to his most problematic issues, which is the lazy and easy way out for a fighting game community that always does this that remotely challenges tradition in the slightest of ways.

The community needs to be more open to stuff in general and with the minor tweaks I’ve laid out, Hero’s RNG would be an entirely risk/reward type thing that impacts the player as much as the opponent. People always talk about the occasional instances in which RNG favors Hero, but honestly, a lot of that RNG will actively work against the player and absolutely creates windows for attacks and counter play given how many frames the menu and a fully executed attack take. But the other issue is people keep attacking RNG, and then defending the characters with existing RNG. If you’re premise is that, “RNG is luck based (not that the concept of luck has no inherent place when seriously discussing statistics, “luck” isn’t a real term in that field) and because we strive as a community to keep things as truly competitive as possible, we’re banning RNG.” Great, now, you’re either banning all inputs that have RNG or you’re banning 5 characters total. The degrees of RNG are pointless semantics because you’re argument against Hero relies on the premise of RNG being inherently unfair in a competitive sense, which then applies to all fighters that include RNG in their moveset. Hell, Peach, Daisy, and Luigi’s RNG all literally benefit those characters completely with no drawbacks to using a move with RNG built into it, which Hero’s spell menu inherently does and is more comparable to Mr. Game and Watch’e Judge in terms of player vs opponent impact.

Banning characters in the digital era in a game with ongoing balance patches and developer feedback is beyond dumb. Work towards rallying people together for changes to Hero, not outright banning him. You’re going to have a much, much easier time getting support and Hero can keep a lot of RNG while reducing his tendencies to get some unreasonable kills. But to approach that problem (like all balance in literally every video game), you need data and statistics to gauge how best to approach the situation.

 

[3323]

You’ve just described all the more reason to wait and see. This character doesn’t fit into the same patterns of any prior ones, and we have no idea which elements of his kit are truly the most problematic and how he needs to be tuned. Banning him immediately essentially means you intend to ban him forever instead of actually working to achieve some sort of fix to his most problematic issues, which is the lazy and easy way out for a fighting game community that always does this that remotely challenges tradition in the slightest of ways.

The community needs to be more open to stuff in general and with the minor tweaks I’ve laid out, Hero’s RNG would be an entirely risk/reward type thing that impacts the player as much as the opponent. People always talk about the occasional instances in which RNG favors Hero, but honestly, a lot of that RNG will actively work against the player and absolutely creates windows for attacks and counter play given how many frames the menu and a fully executed attack take. But the other issue is people keep attacking RNG, and then defending the characters with existing RNG. If you’re premise is that, “RNG is luck based (not that the concept of luck has no inherent place when seriously discussing statistics, “luck” isn’t a real term in that field) and because we strive as a community to keep things as truly competitive as possible, we’re banning RNG.” Great, now, you’re either banning all inputs that have RNG or you’re banning 5 characters total. The degrees of RNG are pointless semantics because you’re argument against Hero relies on the premise of RNG being inherently unfair in a competitive sense, which then applies to all fighters that include RNG in their moveset. Hell, Peach, Daisy, and Luigi’s RNG all literally benefit those characters completely with no drawbacks to using a move with RNG built into it, which Hero’s spell menu inherently does and is more comparable to Mr. Game and Watch’e Judge in terms of player vs opponent impact.

Banning characters in the digital era in a game with ongoing balance patches and developer feedback is beyond dumb. Work towards rallying people together for changes to Hero, not outright banning him. You’re going to have a much, much easier time getting support and Hero can keep a lot of RNG while reducing his tendencies to get some unreasonable kills. But to approach that problem (like all balance in literally every video game), you need data and statistics to gauge how best to approach the situation.

Reading posts on here has been useful for my own knee-jerk reaction to banning hero. I fought him on level 9 cpu this weekend for the first time just to see what would happen. I felt like it was a good example of why people want to ban hero and how to better get to know what he does. My main is Mii Gunner, and I lost to him 3-2 using a best of 3 settings. On two of the games I lost, Hero used thwack and killed me at 24% on my second stock, and 48% on another second stock. I adapted pretty well to him overall, but each game was fairly long. It's frustrating to me as a player that I have to dedicate a lot of time to study his down b command selection, what each of those things do, especially off stage. A lot of people argue "git gud" but it's not as simple as that for this character. Yes, he's relatively slow. But his damage output is ridiculous to the point of being cheap. When he attacks you three times and your at 90ish percent. Sure, Ganondorf can do that but he comes with reasonable setbacks- slow speed, telegraphed attacks, etc. His damage output IS too much. On top of the fact that he can do that much more in "rare" instances of crits. No other character in the game requires an absurd amount of dedication to understanding what they do, and then get bodied randomly like he does. For example, I don't know much about the nuances of Shulk. A highly complex and nuanced character who (when mastered) can be devastating. I have never lost to a level 9 Shulk, and I've played Shulks online where games come down to the last hit and have never lost to him, just based on my knowledge of my main. The balance of that character makes it fun and exciting but I don't have to lab hours into seeing what he does to beat him. I understand that fighting a cpu comes with it's own set contrivances (perfect shielding, baiting, etc) but I felt like only lost due to his unnecessarily cheap advantages.

ANY character in this game, even if I lose, I can see what I did to lose to them. Hero, on the other hand, just gets lucky. Being able to utilize the down b is surprising fast, even online. If you watch YEET smash videos, what makes up most of the "Brutal shield break" videos? It's the unnecessarily powerful forward smash of Hero. It is something I see messing with the meta regardless of the output of Hero mains in tournaments. He is a cheap character, who doesn't rely on skill as much as the other characters do in my opinion. No character in the game should require "hmm.. okay he has 15 down b options that's annoying let's practice with that" and do that, and then lose in a close match when he get's a Dues ex Machina to close it out. I don't want to ban him, but maybe drop his damage output a great deal and get rid of his item-like advantages? I can't think of a single character in the game where I get salty with versing except him.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I fought him on level 9 cpu this weekend for the first time just to see what would happen.

CPUs are a terrible representation of competitive viability. They play nothing like humans do. Whether they think Hero is cheap or not, no competitive player is going to take this argument seriously.

 

[3323]

CPUs are a terrible representation of competitive viability. They play nothing like humans do. Whether they think Hero is cheap or not, no competitive player is going to take this argument seriously.

Fair enough. I wanted to test the randomness of Hero. The argument is no less credible based on the other aspects of what he is capable of (besides a cpu's set instincts). As in, the likeliness of his more powerful moves. The fact I ended up losing those two games because (theoretically) I lost a stock twice despite being ahead by anywhere between 95% and 140%.

 

[Nihilem]

I think it would really help if nintendo would make two small changes to the character:

- Skill Icons: Make simple pictures next to the skill name to solve the language problem.
- Change Crit to a Tipper System instead of RNG (like Marth e.g.): the rng in crits does not anything to the character.

 

[Wigglerman]

I think it would really help if nintendo would make two small changes to the character:

- Skill Icons: Make simple pictures next to the skill name to solve the language problem.
- Change Crit to a Tipper System instead of RNG (like Marth e.g.): the rng in crits does not anything to the character.

I agree to the first but not the second. A tipper system doesn't add anything to him either and makes him a worse Marth. I'd rather he just keep the crit system as it is. If they want to 'tipper system' with Hero they have to fundamentally change his entire base moveset to make it useful (or at the very least make his frame data significantly better). A tipper system for him would be terrible due to his animations making it difficult to 'tip'. Marth's animations were taken into consideration when designing him so tippers can be had on every move with a clear, distinct attack arc. Hero's sword design and arcs wouldn't lend well to tipping.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think the most realistic changes we can expect for Hero are RNG numbers getting adjusted (Twack having a lower chance of killing, Smashes having a lower chance of critting) or knockback/frame data nerfs.

Completely changing a move's programming through a patch is kind of unprecedented. They aren't going to remove the randomness from an RNG attack or add a tipper to a move that didn't have one. We have no reason to expect something like that, and if people tried to campain for something like that I'm pretty sure that their voices would just go unheard (or rather, ignored).

 

[Nihilem]

I agree to the first but not the second. A tipper system doesn't add anything to him either and makes him a worse Marth. I'd rather he just keep the crit system as it is. If they want to 'tipper system' with Hero they have to fundamentally change his entire base moveset to make it useful (or at the very least make his frame data significantly better). A tipper system for him would be terrible due to his animations making it difficult to 'tip'. Marth's animations were taken into consideration when designing him so tippers can be had on every move with a clear, distinct attack arc. Hero's sword design and arcs wouldn't lend well to tipping.

Ok let me rephrase that question: What sense does the Crit Mechanic have outside of beeing an hommage onto the series? Does it really improve the fun to play the hero? Because it certainly makes it more annoying to fight against the hero. If its serves no purpose and only annoys the people why should we keep it?