HERB 2 discussion thread. Current topic: Date

[Vilt]

what would be the penalty for that? restart the match or loss of match?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can just watch the set to make sure nothing happens.

If they blatantly continue it then loss of the match.

 

[ph00tbag]

Seriously, guys, I know that you want to ensure fairness and all, but...

Put on a ****ing pair of pants.

This rule you're talking about is ******** for so many reasons I'm going cross-eyed.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't see how pants or eye problems will solve this ph00t.

You might want to elaborate if you'll convince us of anything.

 

[ph00tbag]

I mean grow up. Deal with it. You are picking an arbitrary number and basing your bans on it. That's dumb. It just causes people to get close to breaking the rule, then doing something else, and then, for instance, going for the regrab. It doesn't solve the problem, it just sweeps most of it under the rug.

Justin didn't win any money at Wilmington, despite relying on the CG. Town didn't win any money either. They both got beat by better players in the end. Even in Melee, Wobbles rarely got very far without having to rely on more than just the infinite. Frankly, good enough players will beat the gay stuff if that's all their opponent has. And if someone has genuine ability and knowledge, and the dedication to master their character, who are we to limit them? Contrary to popular belief, the sgay stuff in this game takes a fair amount of time to develop and maintain muscle memory. Should that time be a waste?

I think it's dumb to ban these things when none of them have in any way centralized the metagame, and many of them haven't even succeeded in making their victims unviable. And furthermore, I don't think you, in particular, should be worried about this stuff, PP, because you can beat this stuff. You're the #1 player in the state. It stands to reason it would take more than an infinite to beat you.

And let's please not base our ban structure on HOBO. Xyro's a great player, but as a TO he's much too eager with the banhammer to be a good role model.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

james, I love you

 

[lord karn]

I think the question we need to ask ourselves is not "Does tactic/character/whatever A overcentralize the metagame" but "Does tactic/character/whatever A make the game worse by existing?" There is usually a correlation between overcentralizing the game and said thing making the game worse. Most things that overcentralize the metagame make the game worse, in my opinion. The most obvious case is MK. The case of infinites is different though. In their current state, they do not overcentralize the metagame, but I still think they make the game worse. When the match comes down to "can the ICs get the grab and infinite you to death?", I think the game is straying away from what it should be. IC infinites also easily have the potential to overcentralize the metagame, they just haven't yet. Look at Meep, a good player who plays the ICs in MD/VA. Recently he's been ****** almost everyone.

I don't really understand why we shouldn't ban things. Banning a tactic or a character is not really any different than banning a stage, in my opinion. It just makes more people upset. We should be aiming for making Smash a better game in the long run.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think using our less experience IC players in NC (PLUR wasn't included in the argument but I'm sure he's good at the infinite, so I'll say something about that in a sec) is a good way to back up an argument. With a little more practice+theory knowledge and all that fun stuff they could easily attain a skill level equal to the current top players here or higher. But, would all of that placing/**** come more from player skill or ability to grab and infinite correctly? I suppose that's something close to what the debate is about, and overcentralization vs making the game worse.

Also, what if the opponent is the same skill level as a high level player but has the infinites down perfectly? Is it fair that the games should be decided on how quickly the grab is gotten by ICs or by how one player proves themselves to make smarter decisions?

Difficulty of learning is negligible. If it can be mastered, then it will at the higher levels of play, which I'm sure we're discussing, so that's implied.


I'm not totally decided on the issue ph00t, but I certainly learn towards banning for now. Also, my responses to your points weren't necessarily counterpoints (some kinda were, others were more questiony), but I am simultaneously trying to check your responses to a few things.

 

[stingers]

I think that because the ICs aren't even winning very many tournaments WITH the grabs, and without the grabs they're a completely unviable competitive character, there is no reason to ban them.

Maybe if results show ICs grabs are broken, then hey, they can be banned later.

Don't get grabbed if you don't want to lose. Simple.

 

[Dark Hart]

I <3 ph00tbag

 

[ph00tbag]

I think the question we need to ask ourselves is not "Does tactic/character/whatever A overcentralize the metagame" but "Does tactic/character/whatever A make the game worse by existing?" There is usually a correlation between overcentralizing the game and said thing making the game worse. Most things that overcentralize the metagame make the game worse, in my opinion. The most obvious case is MK. The case of infinites is different though. In their current state, they do not overcentralize the metagame, but I still think they make the game worse. When the match comes down to "can the ICs get the grab and infinite you to death?", I think the game is straying away from what it should be. IC infinites also easily have the potential to overcentralize the metagame, they just haven't yet. Look at Meep, a good player who plays the ICs in MD/VA. Recently he's been ****** almost everyone.

I don't really understand why we shouldn't ban things. Banning a tactic or a character is not really any different than banning a stage, in my opinion. It just makes more people upset. We should be aiming for making Smash a better game in the long run.

Honestly, I look at the changes in the ICs mechanics from Melee to Brawl, and I'm convinced that the ICs infinite is an intentional mechanic of the game, and thus it is the way the game should be. They could have kept things the way they were in Melee, but simply forced a break on Nana's hit after a certain percent. They did that, but then they made it possible to control Nana's throw. In a way, they maintained IC's superb grab game, but upped the necessary skill level to use it. ICs throws are still stupid good, but it takes mastery, and getting the grab is harder, too.

The thing about Meep is, he's beating almost everyone. If the only way people could beat him were by going ICs themselves, then there would be a problem. But apparently Candy doesn't have so much of a problem with Meep, judging from what I've read, so evidently, there's a way to beat ICs. Plus, Meep doesn't just use ICs.

On the topic of stages, I tend to be the same way I am with techniques and characters, actually. I've never been very heavy-handed in my stage ban opinion, and I think my posting record would show that. I mean, a lot of stages in Brawl should be banned outright because they're absurdly centralizing or entirely random. That's not a question of tolerance; most stage bans are perfectly legit.

I don't think using our less experience IC players in NC (PLUR wasn't included in the argument but I'm sure he's good at the infinite, so I'll say something about that in a sec) is a good way to back up an argument. With a little more practice+theory knowledge and all that fun stuff they could easily attain a skill level equal to the current top players here or higher. But, would all of that placing/**** come more from player skill or ability to grab and infinite correctly? I suppose that's something close to what the debate is about, and overcentralization vs making the game worse.

Also, what if the opponent is the same skill level as a high level player but has the infinites down perfectly? Is it fair that the games should be decided on how quickly the grab is gotten by ICs or by how one player proves themselves to make smarter decisions?

Difficulty of learning is negligible. If it can be mastered, then it will at the higher levels of play, which I'm sure we're discussing, so that's implied.


I'm not totally decided on the issue ph00t, but I certainly learn towards banning for now. Also, my responses to your points weren't necessarily counterpoints (some kinda were, others were more questiony), but I am simultaneously trying to check your responses to a few things.

I realize we're talking about high levels of play. This is precisely what I'm considering. Maybe I put too much faith in high-level players, but I feel like there should be definite counter tactics against getting grabbed by the ICs, and high level players should be aware of what those tactics are. Knowing how to stay out of ICs grab range is half of beating them, and if you're getting caught in those grabs, then the ICs player has gained my respect. Yes, between two high level players, the ICs player has the advantage of an amazing grab game, but that doesn't necessarily mean the ICs player will necessarily win if the other player plays the match right. There are also match-ups to consider.

Incidentally, I think the ICs are very underrated.

 

[kackamee]

Sigh...I personally don't think the CG's are that big of a deal. But if anything they definatly shouldn't be banned. At the most limited to 6.

Reasoning: I'm a fairly decent (Atleast I think so) IC main. I can 0-Death anyone in many different ways. But 1stly, It's really hard to get a grab on someone. And if your lucky enough to get a grab, it's really hard not to mess up because you know that might be the only grab you'll get. You haven't seen IC's doing super well in tourneys because everyone either A) doesn't get grabbed B) messes up the IC's CG C) doesn't get grabbed.
Stingers, I dissagree to a major extent that they suck without CGs, they are just icing on top of the cake. But fully taking it away is like saying Snake can't have his nades/tilts. Plus people can get out of grabs at low levels if they react quickly enough. Even if you do get a grab, Nana's usually somewhere far off so that we can't even complete the CG. Oh, and whoever said something about the IC's CG can't be messed up by tripping is very wrong. Nana can trip while preforming the CG, it has happend to me many many many times. All in all, IMO there should be no banning of IC's CGs, atmost limited to 6 at a time. There is no big evidence that makes IC's CGs broken. Especially with such pathetic grab range.

EDIT: MK is banned mirite?

 

[NC-Echo]

IC's grabs to do not need to be banned just yet.

 

[stingers]

I realize ICs are your main kackamee, but lets be realistic. If ICs Infinites were banned, where would you realistically expect them on the next tier list?

 

[kackamee]

Yes, They are VERY underrated when it comes to them being useful without CGs. Desynching mindgames **** the lower half of the tier list, Blizzard, Squall, Quick Smashes, Great OoS game, and Bair make up the rest. They might not be as high as they are. But the only reason they would be lower is because the SBR wouldn't understannd how to use their other moves.

 

[stingers]

desynching alone ***** the lower half of the list?

golly these mountaineers are amazing

 

[kackamee]

We can have a match about it. I won't Alt grab you the whole set and then I can show you how good the dsynch is.

 

[NC-Echo]

This is Karn.

The way the game should be =/= the way the developers intended the game to be. I think the competitive ruleset should aim at making the game the best it can be. I think that banning all infinites, most stages, and meta knight make it better. It is definitely arguable whether or not the game is better without the grabs or whatever. This is what we should be arguing about, not whether or not it was intended or whether or not people can win with it. Arguably, good people can still win when you play on new pork city, but yet it's still banned. Thus, I think that the IC infinites should be banned.

 

[kackamee]

No way they should be banned without every other CG getting banned also. That's where limited comes in, it makes the Altgrabs less of an infinate and more of a CG. Banning it as a whole means that Falco shouldn't get his CG, or anyone else for that matter. If your gonna do anything to IC's Alt grabs, just limit it to 6 like some people are starting to do.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Limiting it to 6 is not a good idea. Any number, really. This is because you can end the grab and proceed to get 6 more without the opponent going far (if it can be done, people will abuse that limit). There's a % limit on Falco's CG, and a stage length limit (most of the time) on DDD's CG, but IC can alt grab and reverse alt grab until you die.

Besides all of that, making some arbitrary number like 6 is tough to enforce in larger tournaments, and it only aggravates all players involved and slows the tournament and wastes TOs' time.

What're the grounds for ordinary CGs being banned along with IC alt grabs again?

 

[kackamee]

6 is the best IMO, You have to do something at the end of the number 6, wether it's throw them/Nana smash them/ pummel them until they break free. In the amount of time they are in the air, they should be able to react to the point where they won't get grabbed again. If they don't that's on them. If they get grabbed at all, that's on them. I don't know where 6 came from, but it works for most people.
I only say if they ban IC's alt grabs they should ban the others CGs is because DDD's chaingrab or falco's chaingrab do just as much in the end because of their much much better grab range and ableness to get more grabs. So if your going to ban one, you should definatly ban the others to make it fair.

 

[BEHR]

Kack- No MK is not banned.

 

[kackamee]

Oh...ok, I'll live I guess

 

[BEHR]

Oh...ok, I'll live I guess

LOL hes not that bad.


I feel that anything dumb in Brawl is not dumb.


I beat Justins ICs with my Jigglypuff in friendlies.

 

[kackamee]

He is super bad for me. I'll just use Yoshi in the case of an MK I guess. But I also have some trouble with Jiggs, she's too floaty and hard to combo.

 

[Dr Peepee]

6 is the best IMO, You have to do something at the end of the number 6, wether it's throw them/Nana smash them/ pummel them until they break free. In the amount of time they are in the air, they should be able to react to the point where they won't get grabbed again. If they don't that's on them. If they get grabbed at all, that's on them. I don't know where 6 came from, but it works for most people.
I only say if they ban IC's alt grabs they should ban the others CGs is because DDD's chaingrab or falco's chaingrab do just as much in the end because of their much much better grab range and ableness to get more grabs. So if your going to ban one, you should definatly ban the others to make it fair.

Well you can't just pick a number. That's not really logical and it isn't backed by any data/tournament conclusions supporting it. So, everything you said regarding magic number six is null and void.

You're points are so vague. The CGs do what as an end result? Kill someone? No. ICs grabs can kill, DDD's and Falco's rack damage/give positional advantage.

 

[Pyrostormer]

WELL I TINK U SHUD GIMMIE YER MUNEEZ!















On topic: I dont see a reason banning the IC grabs, ect, ect.









please?

 

[kackamee]

Well you can't just pick a number. That's not really logical and it isn't backed by any data/tournament conclusions supporting it. So, everything you said regarding magic number six is null and void.

You're points are so vague. The CGs do what as an end result? Kill someone? No. ICs grabs can kill, DDD's and Falco's rack damage/give positional advantage.

I'm not sure where 6 came from. I dunno if it was made up, or if there was a whole wall-full of information regarding why people are chosing 6, but it is nowhere near nulled. It is a very solid number and anything bigger or smaller may as well be counted as death (7 or higher) or punished easilier (5 or below) And yes Falco's CG kills people. The spike at the end is very super deadly and a heck of a lot easier to do than the IC's Alt grabs. And DDD has great follow-ups at the end of his CG. So I still stand for the limit, leave it alone, or just ban CGs all together.

 

[Dr Peepee]

"a whole wall" tells me nothing. If you wanna prove it, give me the link to the thread saying it's a good number. Null.

Falco's spike, even at the end of the CG, can't kill, and especially with as much certainly as alt grabbing to charged whatever you want smash can. Falco's spike will put someone low, but can't kill directly, giving the opponent a chance to survive. Also, Falco's only works on certain characters at lower percents, and ICs works all of the time.

Ease of execution is implied at high level play, no one will be messing up grab combos. That point is invalid also.

DDD can Ftilt after his once someone off of the stage or edgeguard. That's a great follow up, but it can be avoided, unlike the ICs alt grab, which will kill without uncertainty.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

IC can easily get around the 6 grab rule with our resets and wake ups, FYI....

Just sayin`. ****, ban the character while your at it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I knew there had to be a way around it.

I'm willing to work on establishing an alternate form of IC CG PLUR. I know their grab game is really important, so they should have grabs, but as far as infinites go that seems..not so good.

 

[kackamee]

I'm not sure where 6 came from. I dunno if it was made up, or if there was a whole wall-full of information regarding why people are chosing 6, but it is nowhere near nulled. It is a very solid number and anything bigger or smaller may as well be counted as death (7 or higher) or punished easilier (5 or below) And yes Falco's CG kills people. The spike at the end is very super deadly and a heck of a lot easier to do than the IC's Alt grabs. And DDD has great follow-ups at the end of his CG. So I still stand for the limit, leave it alone, or just ban CGs all together.

"a whole wall" tells me nothing. If you wanna prove it, give me the link to the thread saying it's a good number. Null.

Falco's spike, even at the end of the CG, can't kill, and especially with as much certainly as alt grabbing to charged whatever you want smash can. Falco's spike will put someone low, but can't kill directly, giving the opponent a chance to survive. Also, Falco's only works on certain characters at lower percents, and ICs works all of the time.

Ease of execution is implied at high level play, no one will be messing up grab combos. That point is invalid also.

DDD can Ftilt after his once someone off of the stage or edgeguard. That's a great follow up, but it can be avoided, unlike the ICs alt grab, which will kill without uncertainty.

I provided info on why it's a good number above in bold. And even still Falco can follow up and kill the person trying to recover with a Bair. Also, if IC's alt grabs are sooooo broken and banworthy....how come they are one of the least played chars in Smash? Plus, 6 Alt grabs can't kill unless they were already about to die.

IC can easily get around the 6 grab rule with our resets and wake ups, FYI....

Just sayin`. ****, ban the character while your at it.

No they can't. you can tech out of any spike CG, and with some chars you can even DI out of it.

 

[BEHR]

I really dont see any problem with IC chain grab.

Just dont get grab and camp.

If you want to win Brawl be Gay

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright, so Vilt, are you keeping this date?

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I knew there had to be a way around it.

I'm willing to work on establishing an alternate form of IC CG PLUR. I know their grab game is really important, so they should have grabs, but as far as infinites go that seems..not so good.

The ban wouldn't really effect me anyways because I'm horribly inconsistent. I've only 0-deathed someone once and that was Alex in friendlies.

Oh yeah and BTW, you do have the opportunity to trip during the altgrab. I know for Pivot bthrow regrabs my nana trips alot.

How about this, when I start winning tournies in NC with IC, then you can ban it.

*wants to practice Brawl now but has no wii. D:*

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

No they can't. you can tech out of any spike CG, and with some chars you can even DI out of it.

You can't tech a footstool, FYI. Footstool -> Ice block reset -> continue ****

 

[kackamee]

Ah yes, BTW, I'm an gonna try very hard to make it. My parents are a bit on the side of which they have to drive 1-2 hours to take me here, then go home, then pick me back up. For not one but 2 days. And seeing as how I'm only 13 they are not willing to let me get housed. If I do come, it will probably be just for Brawl.

 

[BEHR]

Ah yes, BTW, I'm an gonna try very hard to make it. My parents are a bit on the side of which they have to drive 1-2 hours to take me here, then go home, then pick me back up. For not one but 2 days. And seeing as how I'm only 13 they are not willing to let me get housed. If I do come, it will probably be just for Brawl.

Would they let a 15 Year old house you?

Im 15 and I dont mind housing young people.

 

[kackamee]

You can't tech a footstool, FYI. Footstool -> Ice block reset -> continue ****

Oh yeah, hobbling, I forgot about that. Well...just put a limit on that one too. And that one only works on heavier characters (Yoshi-Fatter if I'm not mistaken, if not it's like ROB-fatter.)

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Ah yes, BTW, I'm an gonna try very hard to make it. My parents are a bit on the side of which they have to drive 1-2 hours to take me here, then go home, then pick me back up. For not one but 2 days. And seeing as how I'm only 13 they are not willing to let me get housed. If I do come, it will probably be just for Brawl.

Tell them to enjoy their gas getting *****. Jesus christ, that's dumb.

Oh yeah, hobbling, I forgot about that. Well...just put a limit on that one too. And that one only works on heavier characters (Yoshi-Fatter if I'm not mistaken, if not it's like ROB-fatter.)

And not really, I'd assume it works on everyone since you can do it to Metaknight also, apparently. The timing is tight.