Helping The Useless: Move Theorymon

[UltiMario]

I said 200BP for a reason.

A 75 Acc Steel Type move that always goes last will barely be viable otherwise lol

 

[E123-omega]

I thought that you were just making a sarcastic remark to criticize my idea, it's kinda sad that flareon would actually consider using it, he could come in on special attackers, and hit hard with it off of his 130 base attack.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I thought that you were just making a sarcastic remark to criticize my idea, it's kinda sad that flareon would actually consider using it, he could come in on special attackers, and hit hard with it off of his 130 base attack.

5 Generations in, one would think Game Freak would be kinder to Flareon. I mean, they recently treated Entei (albeit an event) with Crush Claw and Flare Blitz. I guess we'll have to hope it gets something good in whatever third game (if any) they release later on. :\

 

[kirbyraeg]

Flareon should get a move that gives him +1 in everything.

Even with that he would STILL suck.

 

[mood4food77]

he should get serene grace ancient power, but his serene grace makes the effect always work

 

[kirbyraeg]

let's just give him a 80 BP no-recoil move that hits the opponent's weakness and call it a day

 

[Claire Diviner]

Come now, guys, surely we can think of something more realistic here.

Honestly, they just need to give it more usable physical moves that it can use within reason... to that effect, EQ and Stone Edge is out of the question. Some moves I would've given it access to are Body Slam (still amazed Eevee doesn't learn it), Crunch (it learns Bite, so why not?), and of course Flare Blitz (the move that screams to be part of its movepool). I can't think of anything else, though I'm sure there are other (and maybe better) options out there. It's just those were the more realistic options I can think of. ^ω^

 

[kirbyraeg]

Honestly, this thread has been basically sidetracked by flareon's incredibly bad movepool, when we're really just trying to talk about/improve existing moves. The problem is that it isn't the moves that need to be fixed, move distribution is what needs to change.

So basically you're exactly right.

Problem is that's already an existing project in the Pokémon Lab (NU to OU) that hasn't seen any traffic in a really long time and has pretty much stalled after B/W's release.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Honestly, this thread has been basically sidetracked by flareon's incredibly bad movepool, when we're really just trying to talk about/improve existing moves. The problem is that it isn't the moves that need to be fixed, move distribution is what needs to change.

So basically you're exactly right.

Problem is that's already an existing project in the Pokémon Lab (NU to OU) that hasn't seen any traffic in a really long time and has pretty much stalled after B/W's release.

I suppose we can migrate some of the theorymoning NU>OU data and project to one catered to the B/W metagame, since it seems Flareon (and a clown car of other NUs) have seen little change in movepool usefulness.

 

[mood4food77]

here's what we could give flareon

flare blitz
fire type ancient power-like move that always increases stats
earthquake
stone edge

and call it a day, that's all we need to do to fix him

 

[Terywj [태리]]

You might as well add something like Extremespeed, Sucker Punch, and Sacred Fire.

Sucker Punch would be interesting to see, at the very least.

 

[kirbyraeg]

On something that doesn't have punching arms, definitely.

 

[Circa]

On something that doesn't have punching arms, definitely.

In most other languages Sucker Punch is just called Cheap Shot or something similar. So basically any Pokemon that doesn't carry a strict discipline of sorts (Medicham, for instance) should be able to learn it.

 

[Claire Diviner]

here's what we could give flareon

flare blitz
fire type ancient power-like move that always increases stats
earthquake
stone edge

and call it a day, that's all we need to do to fix him

I already said to keep it within reason. I mentioned EQ and Stone Edge being out of the question due to aesthetic reasons. That's what a lot of the Pokémon's movepools are based around. Also, I believe we're theorymoning already existing moves (including new Gen 5 moves), so let's not make up any new move ideas for the sake of this. Although, a Fire-type physical Ancientpower would be an interesting idea. XD

You might as well add something like Extremespeed, Sucker Punch, and Sacred Fire.

Sucker Punch would be interesting to see, at the very least.

Sucker Punch and Extremespeed would be very interesting, and both are reasonably viable. I laughed at the crossed-out Sacred Fire. As bada** and infinitely useful that would be, only Ho-oh and the obligatory Smeargle gets it. XD

 

[Terywj [태리]]

On something that doesn't have punching arms, definitely.

Let's take a look at some of the Pokemon with Sucker Punch, shall we?

- Absol
- Ariados
- Corsola
- Dugtrio
- Electrode
- Girafarig
- Huntail
- Lanturn
- Purugly
- Rotom
- Seviper
- Shedinja
- Spiritomb
- Stantler

Spiritomb and Absol I can disclose for their sake of being Dark-type, and maybe the same can be said of Shedinja and Rotom. Stantler, Purugly, Girafarig, and Ariados all have feet, which can't really be "arms" for punching, and everything else doesn't even have limbs.

I think Flareon could pull of a Sucker Punch. Besides the whole translation, of course.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Thinking about priority moves, at the risk of having flame guns aimed at my direction, it is my opinion that Extremespeed and Sucker Punch should have their PP increased to 10... that's just me though. >__>

 

[mood4food77]

flareon should get a fire type sucker punch

that would make it even better

and earthquake of course

please, lati@s gets earthquake, why not flareon

 

[Claire Diviner]

flareon should get a fire type sucker punch

that would make it even better

and earthquake of course

please, lati@s gets earthquake, why not flareon

I dunno about a Fire-type Sucker Punch more than a Fire-type Quick Attack. Though a Fire-type priority move of any sort would be a great idea.

Also, as I said before, they deny Flareon Earthquake for aesthetic reasons more likely than anything else. The Lati Twins get it because they're legendary dragons.

 

[mood4food77]

so are the new three dragons but they don't get earthquake

 

[Terywj [태리]]

so are the new three dragons but they don't get earthquake

Reshiram doesn't really need it, unless Earth Power was given to it as an equivalent. Zekrom kinda wants Earthquake, I guess.

 

[Claire Diviner]

so are the new three dragons but they don't get earthquake

WOW! I'll be ****ed! You're right. Well, I have to admit, that caught me completely by surprise. Meh, I guess an Earthquaking Flareon wouldn't be so bad, if still awkward in my opinion. XD

Joking aside, I guess for the three new dragons, their movepools are adequate enough to warrant other options over Earthquake anyway.

 

[classiccartoonsftw]

Why can't Jalorda and Daikenki get Earthquake? Come on, if Gyarados, Arbok, and Seviper can learn Earthquake, why not giving it to Jalorda? And Meganium can learn it, but why can't Daikenki?

 

[Kofu]

They started being stingy with Earthquake if you look at the new Pokémon that can learn it.

It's mostly Rock/Ground types.

The ones that aren't are:
Emboar
Roobushin
Nageki
Dageki
Pendoraa
Hihidaruma
Ononokusu
Crimgan
Baffuron
Sazandora

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, it does make sense. Earthquake is just too "perfect" a move, so maybe Nintendo figured they ought to hold back on what Pokémon can abuse it. 100 Pwr, 100 Acc, with great coverage on the grounds that it's a Ground-type... yeah, I'll leave it at that.

Still, it doesn't stop its wide distribution for Pokémon of 1st-4th Gen.

 

[Kofu]

Ground in general is an excellent attacking type; only Grass and Bug resist it, and Flying, of course, is immune to it. It's also good against five types. However, both Bug and Flying are weak to Rock, and Grass and Flying are weak to Ice, making it fairly easy to get even coverage with just two moves. It's part of the reason that they have both an Ability that is immune to Ground and now an Item that gives you a (temporary) Ground immunity.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Speaking of that, I'm so happy that entry hazards don't hit the Balloon. It's amazing.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Speaking of that, I'm so happy that entry hazards don't hit the Balloon. It's amazing.

I've always figured from day 1 that the Balloon would be unaffected by non-direct damage. It would be nigh useless otherwise. I guarantee the Balloon will make Heatran and Magnezone more overused than they already are.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

The problem is, though that you get a display message when Pokemon holding a Balloon switch-in, so you can just pop them in the face and continue.

Why are we talking about Balloon here again?

Edit - Nevermind.

 

[Claire Diviner]

The problem is, though that you get a display message when Pokemon holding a Balloon switch-in, so you can just pop them in the face and continue.

Indeed, you're right, but it still gives the Ballooned Pokémon one turn of relief from Ground attacks, allowing it to use that one turn to perform whatever its job happens to be. Message or not, you have to admit that it's extremely useful for those that need it.

 

[Deathfox30]

Now Foresight has always been "useless."

How exactly has this been useless? It's very useful in UU and used A LOT by Blastoise and Hitmontop.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

How exactly has this been useless? It's very useful in UU and used A LOT by Blastoise and Hitmontop.

I wouldn't say a lot.

And to be fair you didn't quote the rest of that little paragraph.

Now Foresight has always been "useless." A move which once used, allowed you to hit Ghost-types with Normal- and Fighting-type moves, but was a complete waste of a moveslot unless your opponent had a bunch of Ghost-types and you had the right Pokemon to abuse it. Now Hitmontop is probably the only Pokemon which actually uses Foresight, catching Spiritomb and Mismagius on the switch and usually being able to Rapid Spin for free.

 

[Claire Diviner]

How exactly has this been useless? It's very useful in UU and used A LOT by Blastoise and Hitmontop.

It may be useful in UU, though I wouldn't know too much, seeing as I haven't battled in a UU environment, but in OU play (the most common and standard format), it is practically useless. Being able to hit Dusknoir with Rapid Spin, or Gengar with Return is a waste, as they can be dealt lethal blows with a wide selection of other moves, namely, super-effective ones.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

How exactly has this been useless? It's very useful in UU and used A LOT by Blastoise and Hitmontop.

Even though I play exclusive UU I thought I should actually go back to look at the August stats.

| Blastoise | Move | Rapid Spin | 87.2 |
| Blastoise | Move | Surf | 81.8 |
| Blastoise | Move | Toxic | 49.8 |
| Blastoise | Move | Ice Beam | 47.1 |
| Blastoise | Move | Yawn | 20.8 |
| Blastoise | Move | Rest | 17.4 |
| Blastoise | Move | Roar | 16.5 |
| Blastoise | Move | Protect | 11.9 |
| Blastoise | Move | Hydro Pump | 7.4 |
| Blastoise | Move | Aqua Jet | 6.3 |
| Blastoise | Move | HP-Grass | 6.2 |
| Blastoise | Move | Waterfall | 5.1 |
| Blastoise | Move | Other (17) | < 5.1 |

| Hitmontop | Move | Foresight | 34.4 |

Blastoise barely touches Foresight, and I've already mentioned Hitmontop in the OP anyways.

 

[Claire Diviner]

If Ghost-types in UU are that vexing, you can always go with Scrappy Miltank and Kangaskhan. They also pack STAB Return and can learn Fighting-type moves as well.

 

[Kofu]

Foresight is mainly just to Rapid Spin in the face of Ghosts, and in Hitmontop's case, to hit Spiritomb for Super Effective damage.

 

[Deathfox30]

Where do you get those stats from? I've only seen tier usage stats on Smogon. I'm very surprised Foresight isn't used as much anymore. Back in March it was hard to find a Hitmontop that didn't have Foresight. Blastoise carried it frequently too.

Btw, are those statistics for rated matches only or all of them? I find it hard to believe Aqua Jet, Hydro Pump, Waterfall, and HP Grass could be above Foresight and even Sleep Talk. :S

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Where do you get those stats from? I've only seen tier usage stats on Smogon. I'm very surprised Foresight isn't used as much anymore. Back in March it was hard to find a Hitmontop that didn't have Foresight. Blastoise carried it frequently too.

Btw, are those statistics for rated matches only or all of them? I find it hard to believe Aqua Jet, Hydro Pump, Waterfall, and HP Grass could be above Foresight and even Sleep Talk. :S

The UU environment has changed since March. Even then, if you were running Foresight why would you use Blastoise over Hitmontop? Hitmontop can threaten Spiritomb with a supereffect STAB Close Combat / Mach Punch whereas Blastoise can't. If Blastoise did indeed run Foresight frequently last March, then I'm surprised I never saw so in many UU battles.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I think the best Blastoise is a CounterCoat Blastoise. It has the bulk to survive most things in UU and KO back :3

passing it wish with Clefable would make it tons better.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I think the best Blastoise is a CounterCoat Blastoise. It has the bulk to survive most things in UU and KO back :3

passing it wish with Clefable would make it tons better.

Another unique set Blastoise ran was the Choice Scarf set with Water Spout, but Blastoise has terrible speed anyway. It was kinda cool, though.

Once a UU tier has been crafted in Generation V I'll be sure to make a thread here for discussion.

But anyway - Foresight is still terrible and is only good on Hitmontop.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Foresight, in hindsight, isn't very useful on many Pokemon in general. Really, Ghost-types can be dealt with quite swiftly without the use of Normal and Fighting moves. Look at Miracle Eye, a move that allows Psychic attacks to hit Dark-types, yet nothing carries that, though I suppose Miracle Eye has no use whatsoever, while Foresight can still aid Rapid Spinners (though few).