Heir to the Monado. Shulk General Discussion/Social Thread

[Banjodorf]

I just don't get why Shulk is so widely predicted outside of the Gematsu leak. We have never had a character that has appeared in simply one game before, so what sets Shulk apart? His game was only localized sue to fan petitioning anyway. I'm not saying I don't understand why he is wanted (anyone who calls him "just antoher swordsman" has never even Googled Xenoblade), I just don't get why people think he is all but confirmed.
P.S. Pls no spoilers

Well, to counter the bolded part specifically, Ness, Lucas, so far Greninja (not counting X&Y as seperate entries.), and the Ice Climbers counter the "one game" argument.

Come to think of it, Ness has been a counter to that from the very beginning.

And, according to Reggie, Operation Rainfall did not really influence Xenoblade's localization and it was planned anyway.

As for other things that set him apart; Monolith Soft is highly regarded as one of Nintendo's most important first-party properties, and has helped them on numerous other titles. Xenoblade is their game, and Shulk would then represent not only an excellent game, and is probably, with Isaac, Nintendo's only good potential JRPG characters to have a chance in Smash, but he would represent MSoft's partnership with Nintendo.

...This of course added to Shulk's popularity, and all the uniqueness and all that. And Gematsu, but we'll see how everything turns out there. I'm fairly confident.

 

[SkittleE]

I wish I could be as confident as you guys, but I'm absolutely terrified of having my hopes crushed. Probably a bit of an overreaction, but I really want Shulk in Smash Bros.

 

[GuyWithTheFace]

I wish I could be as confident as you guys, but I'm absolutely terrified of having my hopes crushed. Probably a bit of an overreaction, but I really want Shulk in Smash Bros.

You're not the only one worried about it. I just hope his popularity, potential, and promotion of X will be enough! Come on, Sakurai, don't let us down!

 

[Pega-pony Princess]

1. He barely has any competition. You can throw Isaac at me, but I don't see these two as competing. They're blond, RPG protagonists, but they are vastly different in who they are and how they could play.
2. He's not considered too new. If Greninja helped Shulk in a major way, it is to show that Sakurai doesn't have some sort of rule about "He appeared in one game four years ago, he shouldn't be in Smash." Even if such a bogus argument existed, Pokemon shouldn't be the exception.
3. Monolith Soft has been incredibly active in Nintendo's games. Heck, even Sakurai has worked with Monolith Soft during the development of Brawl. I'm pretty sure that Monolith would request to Sakurai to put Shulk in Smash or vice versa. Getting the rights to him and everything Xenoblade shouldn't be hard at all. Even then, he would not only represent Xenoblade (a fantastic game), but also the brand new relationship that Nintendo and Monolith have.
4. Sakurai acknowledges Xenoblade and he might be a fan of it. While I don't take the Monado pic as, "OMG! SHULK CONFIRMED!!!1!", it suggests that perhaps Sakurai considered Shulk. Even Assist Trophies had to be considered at one point, like Dillon.
5. He isn't generic by any means. He promotes uniqueness thanks to the Monado and its abilities. It isn't the Falchion, Marth's sword. The Monado has mythical abilities like extending its beam for more damage, create cyclones, create shields to protect the party, among other things; these are his Monado Arts. Shulk also has his own set of Arts like Back Slash, Slit Edge, Stream Edge, Air Slash, and Shaker Edge, which would all work well in Smash.
6. With Nintendo themselves acknowledging the popularity of Xenoblade, they might want to promote it. They recognize the beneficial sales that they got as well as the fanbase behind it. They will probably promote the Xeno series as their next major, RPG franchise. If they didn't, then I doubt X would get any attention from Nintendo. They could have left it in the back burner to die or forget about like most of their franchises, but they are embracing Xenoblade and what it could bring.
7. He is one of the most requested characters worldwide. Sure, his demand is edged out by several characters in other areas, but he shouldn't go unnoticed. He is especially a powerhouse in Japan as he is definitely within their top five most requested characters. This is a character that Sakurai cannot ignore. Don't even get me started on Operation Rainfall and how they got recognized for demanding to bring Xenoblade in other areas.
8. He's obscure you say? Tell that to Little Mac, who casuals nowadays don't even know who he is. Fan demand plays a major role. He isn't known by casuals, but his demand and popularity will outshine all of that.
9. He appeared in one game yes, but that should be negligible when we already have one-offs in Smash. Ness is a one-off and yet he got in Smash since the very beginning.

I've made a giant, more detailed post as to why Shulk is one of the most likely characters for Smash 4 in Rate Their Chances.
You can find it here.

Shulk doesn't need the Gematsu leak to show how much of a likely contender he is.
He isn't highly predicted just because of the Gematsu leak. He has one major point that all of the points that I've mentioned are connected to; his merits. He has so much going for him and yet very little against him.
Honestly, I find Shulk's chances to be incredibly underrated by most people. It just took some time until the Gematsu leak where people finally realized that.
Is he a shoo-in? No. But is he a character who has incredibly strong chances? Of course. Don't doubt the power of the Monado!

As to why I want Shulk, it's not just because he makes sense, the fact that I love Xenoblade, and because I find him unique. I really enjoyed Shulk as a character. As I was playing Xenoblade, I felt like I could connect with Shulk and his experiences in the game. It's because of the fact that I can relate to him, how I loved Xenoblade, how he beautifully fits in Smash, and how I find him unique is what makes me want him. He is one of my favorite video game characters of all-time and he skyrocketed as my most wanted newcomer for a reason.

Hopefully the Monado will lend us its power at E3!

That was absolutely beautiful, Brawler. That needs to be put in the OP.

 

[Deleted member]

That was absolutely beautiful, Brawler. That needs to be put in the OP.

Hahaha! Thank you! It would be an honor if it was put in the OP!
Though... I'm unsure if @ SmashChu read this:

Now, this post is absolutely gigantic. As a result, I will sum up my post in one to three sentences. If you want more detailed reasoning, then click on the spoilers!
First off, let’s start by listing the negatives.
1. Xenoblade is still a new franchise. However, it’s incredibly unfair to call Shulk “too new” when other characters were more new than him prior to their Smash debuts. Greninja’s confirmation kills these “too new” arguments.

Spoiler

Xenoblade is still a new franchise. This is unfortunately true, though I don’t think that this hurts Shulk’s chances too much. While it definitely doesn’t have the longevity or the notability of Mario or Zelda, Xenoblade is still very well-known and highly praised. One argument that I often hear against Shulk is that he is “too new,” which I find to be as stupid as calling King K. Rool “too big.” Why? Xenoblade came out in 2010 in Japan, and thus you have had 4 years to warm up to Shulk before he could potentially appear in Smash. That time period is actually longer than some vets before their debut appearance in their respective Smash appearances. You know when Pokemon Red and Green (or Blue as it’s called here in America) came out in? 1996. When did the first SSB come out in? 1999. Pokemon to SSB 64 is a shorter time span than Xenoblade to SSB4. If we look at Pichu, Pokemon Gold and Silver were released in 1999, 2 years before Melee. Heck, Lucario only existed for 3 years before his debut in Brawl if we count his initial debut to be Pokemon: Lucario and the Mystery of Mew; Lucario’s game debut was in 2006 with Pokemon Diamond and Pearl and those games were released 2 years before Brawl. Outside of Pokemon, Fire Emblem also follows this case. Ike’s first Fire Emblem game, Path of Radiance, was released in 2005 and Brawl was released in 2008; Path of Radiance was released 3 years before Brawl. Fire Emblem: Awakening came out in 2012 in Japan, that’s two years before SSB4 might be released. Xenoblade Chronicles has been released for a longer time than Awakening, so does that mean that Chrom, Lucina, Robin, and all of the other Awakening characters that people want in Smash are too new as well? A much better example is Roy in Melee; his game was released after Melee, being too new didn’t stop him there. My reasoning for bringing up these characters is to make a point; why should people call Shulk “too new” when other characters were much more new than him in their respective Smash debuts. One major development that helps murder these “too new” arguments is Greninja’s confirmation. Pokemon X and Y came out in October of 2013 and it was confirmed to be playable in April of 2014, months later after its initial debut. This means that Shulk isn’t “too new” for Smash 4 like people are claiming. His series is new, but that doesn’t mean that should prevent his inclusion in SSB4. I just find the notion of Shulk being “too new” to be an absolutely stupid and tasteless argument that I can’t believe that people are using against Shulk.

2. Shulk has only appeared in one game so far. Despite the fact that he could be a one-off, we’ve seen various one-offs in Smash (like Sheik). The X protagonist won’t get in over Shulk as he isn’t demanded and we don’t even know whom he is.

Spoiler

Shulk only appeared in one game. This isn’t detrimental, but it’s still something notable. Maybe Sakurai would think that Shulk doesn’t deserve to get in SSB4 since he only appeared in one game. However, we’ve seen various one-offs in the Smash universe, so I don’t find this to be hurtful towards Shulk. I mean, Lucas has only appeared in Mother 3 and he got in Brawl. Speaking of one-offs, I’ve seen arguments against Shulk saying that he would be a one-off and wouldn’t get in Smash. I disagree with this. Shulk is the first protagonist of Xenoblade and is still a very highly requested character. There is no way that someone from X is going to get in before Shulk, especially when people don’t know who the main protagonist is (we don’t even know the NAME of the main protagonist of X yet!). Sheik is a one-off character from the Zelda universe and she got in Smash; Roy is also a one-off and he got in Melee and people are clamoring for his return. So, I find this to be a weak argument as well.

3. Xenoblade’s sales weren’t the absolute best. While this is true, some franchises represented in Smash didn’t have impressive sales either. Xenoblade’s sales won’t make Sakurai overlook him.

Spoiler

Xenoblade didn’t have the best sales. While sales are important, you have to understand that Xenoblade had a limited release in the US. Copies are scarce and the game was only released in GameStops in the US. I am not so sure how well it sold in other areas, but the game definitely left an impact on those who have played it and haven’t played it. So, I find Xenoblade’s poor sales to be a minor factor in this case. Some series with poor sales are getting represented in Smash; the biggest example here is EarthBound. Heck, even Captain Rainbow is getting some content in Smash. Remember that fat Little Mac trophy? That was from Captain Rainbow, an obscure game that was only released in Japan and it had extremely poor sales. In fact, the sales were so bad that the European port was cancelled! While Xenoblade doesn’t have the best sales in the world, I don’t think that Sakurai will overlook Shulk and Xenoblade at all.

While these things hurt Shulk, I find them to be somewhat minor towards his chances. Why? It’s because there are so many positives to Shulk that they outweigh all of his negatives. This is just the almighty power of the Monado.
1. Monolith Soft has been very active in Nintendo’s latest games, even participating in Brawl’s development. Monolith Soft is also a first party company to Nintendo, meaning the rights to use Shulk and other content from Xenoblade wouldn’t be difficult to get at all.

Spoiler

Monolith Soft has been very active in the development of several Nintendo games. They have worked on games like Animal Crossing: New Leaf, The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, and The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds. One game that they also helped in the development of is Super Smash Bros. Brawl; since Sakurai has worked with Monolith Soft before, he can easily go to them and request to put Shulk in Smash. Maybe even Monolith Soft would like a say and request Sakurai to put Shulk in SSB4. On the topic of Monolith Soft, I must address two quick things. First, Monolith Soft is a first party company; this means that Xenoblade Chronicles is a first party series and Shulk doesn’t face legal issues. The rights to use Shulk can easily be obtained, though I can imagine that Sakurai must ask for permission to use Shulk and any other content from Xenoblade Chronicles. I mention this, as it’s a rather popular misconception since people believe that Shulk is a third party character. Second, Nintendo didn’t buy out Monolith Soft when Xenoblade was released. They owned them prior to that moment. So, those who say that Nintendo bought Monolith after Xenoblade and using that as a point are rather wrong.

2. Sakurai acknowledges Xenoblade and its existence. He might be a fan of it for all we know and the roster was decided when Xenoblade was released in areas outside of Japan.

Spoiler

Speaking of Sakurai, he acknowledges Xenoblade. While he has to have the knowledge of many Nintendo franchises, it’s still nice to see that he is at least aware of Xenoblade and how big this series is. In fact, on his Twitter, he posted a pic of Shulk’s sword, the Monado.

For all we know, Sakurai could be a fan of Xenoblade and would love for the series to get represented in Smash. This definitely helps out Shulk’s case, especially when the time stamp of this pic is during SSB4’s development. For all we know, Sakurai could be a big fan of this game and would love for it to get represented in Smash. Xenoblade being released in other areas when the roster was decided in 2012 helps this home in on this fact. Sakurai may have caught wind of the Xenoblade madness that was going on at the time.

3. Shulk isn’t a generic swordsman; he could be one of the most unique characters in Smash thanks to his sword, the Monado. He would be one of the easiest characters to create a moveset with.

Spoiler

Shulk has uniqueness. We’ve seen all sorts of characters have a unique element to them. Villager has his items, Mega Man has the Robot Master’s weapons and tons of projectiles, Wii Fit Trainer attacks with yoga poses, Rosalina has her Lumas and puppeteer moveset, and Little Mac has his Power Meter and punches. What does Shulk have that could make him unique? The god-slaying sword, the Monado. The Monado is what sets up his uniqueness. I hate how people call him “generic” and that he would be “just another sword user.” It tells me that these people haven’t played Xenoblade, haven’t seen footage of the game, or are using excuses to hate Shulk. The Monado is vastly different than some of the swords that have been seen in Smash. The Monado has its own powers that help separate it from the other weapons that we’ve seen in Smash, thus making the Monado a standout weapon. Shulk has various Monado Arts that he can use in battle. He can use Monado Buster to charge up the attack and this in turn would increase the length of the Monado for his neutral special, use Monado Eater to send out a projectile and that projectile will cause poison damage as his side special, use Monado Speed to recover in his up special, use Monado Shield as a reflector and move around with the move being active as his down special, and use Monado Cyclone to create a massive pillar as his Final Smash. Other than Monado Arts that I’ve mentioned (there are others like Monado Enchant, Monado Armor, and Monado Purge), he has his own Arts like Back Slash, Slit Edge, Shaker Edge, Stream Edge, and Air Slash. Sometimes Sakurai isn’t faithful to some characters, thus Shulk could use Arts from other characters, like Reyn’s Aura Burst or Dunban’s Gale Slash for example, in some of his standard attacks. If Shulk had another gimmick like Little Mac’s Power Meter, it would could a Level Up system where his attacks would become more powerful and level up as Shulk continues to dish out damage at his opponents. Shulk can also have visions, which help him see into the future and prevent something horrible from occurring. However, I have a hard time imagining how the visions can be incorporated in a moveset as the pacing of Smash Bros. is far different than the pacing of Xenoblade. While the Monado is a big sword, it’s nothing like Ike’s sword. Shulk’s speed and weight would be in the middle, unlike Ike who is slow and heavy. Shulk’s play-style could involve prediction, which could be similar in vain to the visions. If you predict your opponent correctly, you could use one of Shulk’s devastating attacks to deal damage or finish off the opponent. If you predict wrongly, you could leave yourself wide open for an attack. I know that Sakurai is having trouble creating movesets for various characters nowadays since there aren’t many characters left who would fit in this environment, but Shulk already has moveset potential and it would be easy for Sakurai to convert Shulk as a fighter.

4. Shulk has absolutely no competition. Isaac is by no means considered competition for Shulk as Isaac could easily get on the roster along with Shulk; it’s absolutely pointless and stupid to say and start arguments that they are. Even if Shulk was competing against the other Rainfall heroes, Zael and Aeron, Shulk blows them away with the critical reception, sales, and popularity Xenoblade garnered.

Spoiler

Competition? That’s non-existent. I have seen some sort of “blond trio” group of Shulk, Isaac, and Saki. The truth of the matter is that neither of these characters even compare to Shulk. Isaac? You can argue that they are fighting to become the quintessential JRPG rep, but I don’t see these two competing and I think that they can both get in. Isaac’s moveset potential comes from his psynergy and seeing some Golden Sun footage for various attacks that Isaac can use, they are nothing like Shulk’s Monado Arts and the regular Arts that other characters can use in Xenoblade. Saki? While he was sadly disconfirmed to return as an Assist Trophy, I must explain why Shulk and Saki arguments are pointless. Saki’s game is an on rails shooter and his uniqueness is set up with projectiles and melee combat from his sword; this sword doesn’t have any sort of mythical powers like the Monado and Xenoblade is a JRPG. This one is by far one of the dumbest of debates. These series aren’t even comparable to Xenoblade right now; Xenoblade is getting time in the limelight, Golden Sun hasn’t been heard from in years, and Sin and Punishment had a revival and was forgotten shortly after. The competition with the other Rainfall heroes is also rather small. Zael’s and Aeron’s respective games did not meet with the same success that Xenoblade did. Xenoblade had better sales and better critical reception than The Last Story and Pandora’s Tower. I can see them get on the roster as DLC characters, but I can’t see them be in direct competition with Shulk. If they are seen as competition, then Shulk has beaten them by a landslide. Zael’s, Aeron’s, and their respective game’s popularity are miniscule compared to the popularity that Shulk and Xenoblade have. I can’t see Shulk have any form of competition to worry about.

5. Nintendo has been acknowledging Xenoblade as of late. The series has an immediate future and Nintendo might push Xenoblade to become something even bigger.

Spoiler

Xenoblade is currently getting recognition. All right, this is a minor point that I have added from my original post, but it’s still something that kind of helps Shulk. You think that Nintendo would want to not mention about the Operation Rainfall games and that they would put those games behind them. However, to my surprise, they are acknowledging and embracing Xenoblade. With Xenoblade getting mentioned in the latest Nintendo Direct and even having its own Puzzle Swap, it shows that Nintendo might push to make Xenoblade something even bigger. With X getting released some time in the future, Xenoblade is sure to have an immediate future. I am unsure if X is a sequel to Xenoblade, but I am confident that it is. In any case, I don’t believe X helps Shulk and I don’t think that he would get in Smash just to promote X. We aren’t even sure if he’s in the game! Regardless, I find that Nintendo acknowledging Xenoblade and giving it credit may affect Sakurai’s decisions.

6. Shulk is one of the most requested characters worldwide. The casual fanbase might not know who Shulk is or what Xenoblade is, but there are already unknown characters to the casual fanbase that are already on the roster in Smash. This is a character that is impossible for Sakurai to ignore.

Spoiler

This is the most important. Shulk has worldwide demand; more specifically his popularity is coming from Japan. People in America and other areas may have not played Xenoblade, but they have at least heard of it and might think that Shulk would be a cool addition in Smash, thus he is still getting requests in those areas. In fact, his Operation Rainfall support is still going strong to this day. It’s critical in Japan as they help Sakurai determine who would be popular picks on the roster. According to Chrono, Shulk is by far one of the most requested characters in that region. Who know who else is? A confirmed Mega Man, a god-tiered requested King K. Rool, and a possibly leaked Palutena. Shulk is also the most requested character that is not from a represented series in Japan. He did have competition for that category in Starfy, but Shulk now dominates it in Japan after when Starfy was confirmed to return as an Assist Trophy. Even in various polls, Shulk has managed to be consistent on the top of numerous lists. Even when these are just polls, want lists, and requests, they add up to hundreds or even thousands of times that Shulk’s name has been mentioned. I’ve heard arguments that Shulk shouldn’t be in Smash Bros. as he is an unknown or obscure character. While newer gamers probably won’t know who he is, he still has the requests and the popularity from Xenoblade to back up his notability. There are characters that we know that others don’t know. One of the biggest examples here is Little Mac; the people in the US were absolutely ecstatic to see him get included while the Japanese viewed him as obscure and as an unknown character. I also recall people in the Daily Miiverse Pics thread say that they have no idea who Captain Rainbow was or what his game is even about when the fat Little Mac pic was shown in a Pic of the Day. Just because Xenoblade and Shulk have relative obscurity among the casual fanbase shouldn’t hurt Shulk by any means, especially when the king of Nintendo obscurity is getting represented in SSB4 in some form. So, calling Shulk too obscure or too unknown for SSB4 is yet another weak argument as Shulk has the fans and the support to help push him into SSB4. Shulk is definitely a character that is impossible for Sakurai to ignore.

Honestly, this is what I think and believe his chances are. I could mention the Monolith Tweet before the Direct or the new Sal Romano leak where Shulk is listed alongside “a Pokemon from X and Y” (Greninja) as being a newcomer in Smash, but these won’t factor into why I believe Shulk has an incredible chance in making it into SSB4. They are important in regards to possible hinting towards his inclusion, but there is no proof that Shulk is in SSB4, unlike a certain Palutena leak and there wasn’t any sort of “teasing.”
Once again, I am not telling you that Shulk is a shoo-in. Despite this, he is probably one of the strongest contenders that could appear in Smash Bros. The amount of evidence and information that supports his inclusion is absolutely gigantic. It would be a giant surprise if he doesn’t make it in SSB4 at all, whether as a playable character or as an Assist Trophy or in any other form. Shulk is a Nintendo All-Star and is one of Nintendo’s newest uprising children. I believe that Shulk is ready to obtain his spot on the roster.
All of these points link to one major point overall; he has a ton of merits. He has so much going for him and very little against him. He is a major contender for Smash 4.

EDIT: Yeah, it's my post from RTC. I'd thought that I'd share it... again. I still have this saved as a word document!

 

[Raetah]

1. He barely has any competition. You can throw Isaac at me, but I don't see these two as competing. They're blond, RPG protagonists, but they are vastly different in who they are and how they could play.

Im bored of this argument. Characters competition is not divided in categories, there is not going to be a decission between Shulk or Isaac just because they are part of RPG genre. However that does not change the fact that Isaac is a competition of Shulk, in fact... Shulk is competing against thousands of nintendo characters and thousands of 3rd party characters, including veterans and possible newcomers. Of course comparing characters the list is reduced to much less, but even then, there are around 10 characters including veterans and unrevealed newcomers that may mean that Shulk is not playable. If you are not afraid of Isaac, then think about Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ness, Falco, Ganondorf, Mr Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Wario, Meta Knight and R.O.B.- Those ten are most likely going to be in the game. I wouldnt count out Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf or Lucas (Specially Wolf and Lucas). Mostly because those characters were included in many lists of expected cut alongside Lucario, Ike and Toon Link and those are back (not to mention that Sakurai clearly supports Star Fox and Earthbound-Mother). Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Pichu and Young Link are unlikely, even if some people expects Mewtwo return. But who knows? The conclusion of this: around 10-13 veteran characters are going to return. If you add that to the current 30 confirmed characters, we have 40-43 characters in the roster. Of course i expect more newcomers to be in the game, but who are going to be those newcomers? Palutena of Kid Icarus? Perhaps an Awakening character... Could another AT be promoted to playable character, you know, like Little Mac... Perhaps during the E3 another 3rd party character becomes revealed, like Pac-Man, for example. Sakurai had been adding space animals in each of the titles... this is Krystal time? Perhaps Sakurai wants to add another unlikely character that no one expects, like Game Cube Controller, that would be funny, indeed. Now lets go to the next point.

The most important representative and important thing about Xenoblade and Shulk... The signature power of the Monado...
Is clearly the ability to see into the future and that is impossible to include correctly in the SSB gameplay, i know that Monado and Shulk powers and skills are not limited to that, but that is the most important thing of those.
"Who they are and how they could play"... Without visions, Shulk loses an important part of who is he, what he represents and the way he could play. This does affect Isaac too, Golden Sun characters are basically a combination of warrior, magician and summoner. If Isaac is in SSB he is most likely going to be an Earth-themed character, that is a small part of what he can do, many people would ignore that, but for me that im a Golden Sun fan is a huge issue. Shulk does still have many options even without visions... Perhaps one of the most important things that favor Shulk inclusion is the different character style design he have compared to other characters, a combination of Fantasy and Sci-Fiction that makes Shulk look like no one in Nintendo characters.

Now one last thing. We have no precedents that support the inclusion of a character like Shulk.
I have seen, persons of this thread mentioning characters of Pokemon, Fire Emblem and Eartbound-Mother against some negative arguments of Shulk inclusion. No. Those comparison are not reasonable. If Shulk is added to Smash it would be the first time that something like that happens.

 

[Spazzy_D]

The most important representative and important thing about Xenoblade and Shulk... The signature power of the Monado...
Is clearly the ability to see into the future and that is impossible to include correctly in the SSB gameplay, i know that Monado and Shulk powers and skills are not limited to that, but that is the most important thing of those.

I see Smash fans do this all the time. It's why people thought Little Mac would be a boring character or that Rosalina wouldn't add anything to Smash Bros from a gameplay perspective. Just because we can't figure out a good way to incorporate Shulk's precognition doesn't mean that Sakurai and his team can't. I actually think Shulk has the most potential of any newcomer to play uniquely from a mechanics stand point if it could be implemented properly.

Speaking of Isaac, I think he might be a bit vanilla mechanically but he might have the most potential to have a unique move set do to the shear number of abilities he gets in Golden Sun. I don't think it would be that difficult to represent him either, I would probably keep him with Earth Pysnergy for his specials (and maybe "move" as well), have him use his sword for regular attacks, and have him summon Djinn for his Final Smash. Of course there are more creative move sets for him, but he has his own thread if you really want to get into it.

Now one last thing. We have no precedents that support the inclusion of a character like Shulk.
I have seen, persons of this thread mentioning characters of Pokemon, Fire Emblem and Eartbound-Mother against some negative arguments of Shulk inclusion. No. Those comparison are not reasonable. If Shulk is added to Smash it would be the first time that something like that happens.

1.) Why are the comparisons not reasonable?

2.) Every Smash has introduced the "first time something happened." Melee introduced Japanese only character for the first time and a retro revival for the first time. Brawl introduced Third Party characters and a playable representation of hardware for the first time. Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't make it unlikely.

Also, if you want to count Xenoblade as a continuation of the "Xeno" franchise then it is the 5th game in a series that began in 1998. It's not as unreasonable as you might think, either, the games don't have any story elements that connect them but they contain a lot of the same themes and are all made by the same team. In a way they have more holding them together then the various Final Fantasy games.

 

[Banjodorf]

"Shulk has nothing going for him"? Really? Lets just ignore all the evidence to the contrary why don't we.

Sigh.

 

[Raetah]

I see Smash fans do this all the time. It's why people thought Little Mac would be a boring character or that Rosalina wouldn't add anything to Smash Bros from a gameplay perspective. Just because we can't figure out a good way to incorporate Shulk's precognition doesn't mean that Sakurai and his team can't. I actually think Shulk has the most potential of any newcomer to play uniquely from a mechanics stand point if it could be implemented properly.

There is no way to representate properly the precognition of Shulk.

Speaking of Isaac, I think he might be a bit vanilla mechanically but he might have the most potential to have a unique move set do to the shear number of abilities he gets in Golden Sun. I don't think it would be that difficult to represent him either, I would probably keep him with Earth Pysnergy for his specials (and maybe "move" as well), have him use his sword for regular attacks, and have him summon Djinn for his Final Smash. Of course there are more creative move sets for him, but he has his own thread if you really want to get into it.

As i said, Earth-themed Isaac is a smart portion of full Isaac potential.

1.) Why are the comparisons not reasonable?

Because those characters dont have the same situation than Shulk.

2.) Every Smash has introduced the "first time something happened." Melee introduced Japanese only character for the first time and a retro revival for the first time. Brawl introduced Third Party characters and a playable representation of hardware for the first time. Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't make it unlikely.

I never said that Shulk inclusion is something unlikely due this.

Also, if you want to count Xenoblade as a continuation of the "Xeno" franchise then it is the 5th game in a series that began in 1998. It's not as unreasonable as you might think, either, the games don't have any story elements that connect them but they contain a lot of the same themes and are all made by the same team. In a way, they have more holding them together then the various Final Fantasy games.

Of course im NOT going to count Xenoblade as a a continuation of "Xeno", as well that im not going to count X if Monolith soft does not confirm that. What kind of reasoning if that? I must count any of the other Camelot games with Golden Sun? Some of them have the same music composer that makes extremely simmilar soundtracks, in fact why we dont count all videogames that contain music of the same composer, including SSBB. Also going to count all the Spin-off of Mario that Camelot developed. Oh my god! Isaac chances increased a lot...
He must be part of the game indeed.

 

[Banjodorf]

Well, since you've apparently ignored the vision mechanics Xenoblaze came up with, then let me reiterate one of the posts on the front page, that uses a vision as a final smash (which fits, since it's so incredibly important according to the one dismissing it as impossible.) where something like the Mechonis shows up in the background to strike the field, only to have Shulk predict this and jump out of the way, which the other combatants cannot prepare for, and they get smashed.

...It's actually pretty easy to implement visions if you really give it some thought. Though "the most important mechanic in the game" is debatable, since I think something like an Art Gauge would be even more important. And also easy to implement.

And no, Ness and Shulk are not in a dissimilar situation, using Ness' first Smash appearance as an example. Or if you want, compare him to Lucas. I'd love to hear the reasoning why Ness and Lucas are so much better than Shulk in terms of only having one game.

 

[Deleted member]

@ R Raetah
OK, we get it. You support Isaac over Shulk. Don't start some flame wars and debate here because you don't want him. We've explained countless times how Shulk can work in Smash (as well as how his Visions could work) and you flat-out ignored it.

I don't understand this mindset. Whether they are in competition or not is completely up to the person. However, do not blame Shulk if he got in and not Isaac. Why blame Shulk? If Shulk gets in, Shulk didn't really do anything other than get a roster slot and it was Sakurai's choice that he did. It wouldn't be his fault at all.

This is why I don't support Isaac's inclusion at all; it's because of these unnecessary flame wars between Shulk and Isaac supporters. Why must we keep on fighting? Can we peacefully co-exist without any flame wars or debates? Can we accept one's preference?

 

[Raetah]

@ R Raetah
OK, we get it. You support Isaac over Shulk. Don't start some flame wars and debate here because you don't want him. We've explained countless times how Shulk can work in Smash (as well as how his Visions could work) and you flat-out ignored it.

I don't understand this mindset. Whether they are in competition or not is completely up to the person. However, do not blame Shulk if he got in and not Isaac. Why blame Shulk? If Shulk gets in, Shulk didn't really do anything other than get a roster slot and it was Sakurai's choice that he did. It wouldn't be his fault at all.

This is why I don't support Isaac's inclusion at all; it's because of these unnecessary flame wars between Shulk and Isaac supporters. Why must we keep on fighting? Can we peacefully co-exist without any flame wars or debates? Can we accept one's preference?

While i clearly support Isaac over Shulk, right here and right now, Isaac does not take more than 5 lines in my two recent messages, in some of those lines i was merely comparing the limitations that both Isaac and Shulk have due SSB system and by the way. No, there is no correct way to representate visions in SSB, there is only one correct way to representate Shulk visions, basing those in Xenoblade, and that is not viable in SSB system. Just like the whole systems around Djinns of Golden Sun is not viable in SSB.The other part in where Isaac was used was during your statement of "He barely has any competition", that is completely false. Due the several competition that any potential playable character have in the game.

Also, no. Unlike others that blame Lucas, R.O.B. or other characters that they feel unnecesary or any newcomer of SSB4. Im not going to blame any character if Isaac is not included, also, i would not blame Sakurai. If there is something that i can blame, that is Dark Dawn and Camelot.

This wasnt intended to start any type of conflict involving Isaac and Shulk. But it seems that Isaac become a forgotten word (forgotten when you need it, you have no mercy in using Isaac to say that not even he is a competition) in this thread.
I suppose that is my fault.

Here i created a non-Isaac version of my messages specially for you, so you can read it without any over-reaction:

"Im bored of this argument. Shulk is competing against thousands of nintendo characters and thousands of 3rd party characters, including veterans and possible newcomers. Of course comparing characters the list is reduced to much less, but even then, there are around 10 characters including veterans and unrevealed newcomers that may mean that Shulk is not playable. Think about Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ness, Falco, Ganondorf, Mr Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Wario, Meta Knight and R.O.B.- Those ten are most likely going to be in the game. I wouldnt count out Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf or Lucas (Specially Wolf and Lucas). Mostly because those characters were included in many lists of expected cut alongside Lucario, Ike and Toon Link and those are back (not to mention that Sakurai clearly supports Star Fox and Earthbound-Mother). Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Pichu and Young Link are unlikely, even if some people expects Mewtwo return. But who knows? The conclusion of this: around 10-13 veteran characters are going to return. If you add that to the current 30 confirmed characters, we have 40-43 characters in the roster. Of course i expect more newcomers to be in the game, but who are going to be those newcomers? Palutena of Kid Icarus? Perhaps an Awakening character... Could another AT be promoted to playable character, you know, like Little Mac... Perhaps during the E3 another 3rd party character becomes revealed, like Pac-Man, for example. Sakurai had been adding space animals in each of the titles... this is Krystal time? Perhaps Sakurai wants to add another unlikely character that no one expects, like Game Cube Controller, that would be funny, indeed. Now lets go to the next point.

The most important representative and important thing about Xenoblade and Shulk... The signature power of the Monado...
Is clearly the ability to see into the future and that is impossible to include correctly in the SSB gameplay, i know that Monado and Shulk powers and skills are not limited to that, but that is the most important thing of those.
"Who they are and how they could play"... Without visions, Shulk loses an important part of who is he, what he represents and the way he could play. Shulk does still have many options even without visions... Perhaps one of the most important things that favor Shulk inclusion is the different character style design he have compared to other characters, a combination of Fantasy and Sci-Fiction that makes Shulk look like no one in Nintendo characters.

Now one last thing. We have no precedents that support the inclusion of a character like Shulk.
I have seen, persons of this thread mentioning characters of Pokemon, Fire Emblem and Eartbound-Mother against some negative arguments of Shulk inclusion. No. Those comparison are not reasonable. If Shulk is added to Smash it would be the first time that something like that happens."

 

[---]

This argument doesn't break any rules just yet, but I feel that I should remind everyone to keep things clean.

 

[SmashChu]

@Brawler610: Major props for writting all of that. I would like to read it but I'm usually too busy to do so. I would like to hear what you all think. If you all like it, I'll add it to the OP.

I would say that you should add something about the current price at Amazon and EBay. The price is high which means demand for this game is very high.

 

[FlareHabanero]

This is the type of bullcrap that I am fearing in the future.

The scapegoat card, the thing that gives people the misguided excuse to complain.

 

[Deleted member]

@Brawler610: Major props for writting all of that. I would like to read it but I'm usually too busy to do so. I would like to hear what you all think. If you all like it, I'll add it to the OP.

I would say that you should add something about the current price at Amazon and EBay. The price is high which means demand for this game is very high.

I would love it if it was added to the OP!

I added the supply and demand point in my argument. It makes me think that because the demand is so high, Nintendo probably realized that they have a major series under their belt and why they are starting to promote X more carefully.
Here is the final version of my arguments that showcase both his pros and cons:

Spoiler

Now, this post is absolutely gigantic. As a result, I will sum up my post in one to three sentences. If you want more detailed reasoning, then click on the spoilers!
First off, let’s start by listing the negatives.
1. Xenoblade is still a new franchise. However, it’s incredibly unfair to call Shulk “too new” when other characters were more new than him prior to their Smash debuts. Greninja’s confirmation kills these “too new” arguments.

Spoiler

Xenoblade is still a new franchise. This is unfortunately true, though I don’t think that this hurts Shulk’s chances too much. While it definitely doesn’t have the longevity or the notability of Mario or Zelda, Xenoblade is still very well-known and highly praised. One argument that I often hear against Shulk is that he is “too new,” which I find to be as stupid as calling King K. Rool “too big.” Why? Xenoblade came out in 2010 in Japan, and thus you have had 4 years to warm up to Shulk before he could potentially appear in Smash. That time period is actually longer than some vets before their debut appearance in their respective Smash appearances. You know when Pokemon Red and Green (or Blue as it’s called here in America) came out in? 1996. When did the first SSB come out in? 1999. Pokemon to SSB 64 is a shorter time span than Xenoblade to SSB4. If we look at Pichu, Pokemon Gold and Silver were released in 1999, 2 years before Melee. Heck, Lucario only existed for 3 years before his debut in Brawl if we count his initial debut to be Pokemon: Lucario and the Mystery of Mew; Lucario’s game debut was in 2006 with Pokemon Diamond and Pearl and those games were released 2 years before Brawl. Outside of Pokemon, Fire Emblem also follows this case. Ike’s first Fire Emblem game, Path of Radiance, was released in 2005 and Brawl was released in 2008; Path of Radiance was released 3 years before Brawl. Fire Emblem: Awakening came out in 2012 in Japan, that’s two years before SSB4 might be released. Xenoblade Chronicles has been released for a longer time than Awakening, so does that mean that Chrom, Lucina, Robin, and all of the other Awakening characters that people want in Smash are too new as well? A much better example is Roy in Melee; his game was released after Melee, being too new didn’t stop him there. My reasoning for bringing up these characters is to make a point; why should people call Shulk “too new” when other characters were much more new than him in their respective Smash debuts. One major development that helps murder these “too new” arguments is Greninja’s confirmation. Pokemon X and Y came out in October of 2013 and it was confirmed to be playable in April of 2014, months later after its initial debut. This means that Shulk isn’t “too new” for Smash 4 like people are claiming. His series is new, but that doesn’t mean that should prevent his inclusion in SSB4. I just find the notion of Shulk being “too new” to be an absolutely stupid and tasteless argument that I can’t believe that people are using against Shulk.

2. Shulk has only appeared in one game so far. Despite the fact that he could be a one-off, we’ve seen various one-offs in Smash (like Sheik). The X protagonist won’t get in over Shulk as he isn’t demanded and we don’t even know whom he is.

Spoiler

Shulk only appeared in one game. This isn’t detrimental, but it’s still something notable. Maybe Sakurai would think that Shulk doesn’t deserve to get in SSB4 since he only appeared in one game. However, we’ve seen various one-offs in the Smash universe, so I don’t find this to be hurtful towards Shulk. I mean, Lucas has only appeared in Mother 3 and he got in Brawl. Speaking of one-offs, I’ve seen arguments against Shulk saying that he would be a one-off and wouldn’t get in Smash. I disagree with this. Shulk is the first protagonist of Xenoblade and is still a very highly requested character. There is no way that someone from X is going to get in before Shulk, especially when people don’t know who the main protagonist is (we don’t even know the NAME of the main protagonist of X yet!). Sheik is a one-off character from the Zelda universe and she got in Smash; Roy is also a one-off and he got in Melee and people are clamoring for his return. So, I find this to be a weak argument as well.

3. Xenoblade’s sales weren’t the absolute best. While this is true, some franchises represented in Smash didn’t have impressive sales either. Xenoblade’s sales won’t make Sakurai overlook him.

Spoiler

Xenoblade didn’t have the best sales. While sales are important, you have to understand that Xenoblade had a limited release in the US. Copies are scarce and the game was only released in GameStops in the US. I am not so sure how well it sold in other areas, but the game definitely left an impact on those who have played it and haven’t played it. So, I find Xenoblade’s poor sales to be a minor factor in this case. Some series with poor sales are getting represented in Smash; the biggest example here is EarthBound. Heck, even Captain Rainbow is getting some content in Smash. Remember that fat Little Mac trophy? That was from Captain Rainbow, an obscure game that was only released in Japan and it had extremely poor sales. In fact, the sales were so bad that the European port was cancelled! While Xenoblade doesn’t have the best sales in the world, I don’t think that Sakurai will overlook Shulk and Xenoblade at all.

While these things hurt Shulk, I find them to be somewhat minor towards his chances. Why? It’s because there are so many positives to Shulk that they outweigh all of his negatives. This is just the almighty power of the Monado.
1. Monolith Soft has been very active in Nintendo’s latest games, even participating in Brawl’s development. Monolith Soft is also a first party company to Nintendo, meaning the rights to use Shulk and other content from Xenoblade wouldn’t be difficult to get at all.

Spoiler

Monolith Soft has been very active in the development of several Nintendo games. They have worked on games like Animal Crossing: New Leaf, The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, and The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds. One game that they also helped in the development of is Super Smash Bros. Brawl; since Sakurai has worked with Monolith Soft before, he can easily go to them and request to put Shulk in Smash. Maybe even Monolith Soft would like a say and request Sakurai to put Shulk in SSB4. On the topic of Monolith Soft, I must address two quick things. First, Monolith Soft is a first party company; this means that Xenoblade Chronicles is a first party series and Shulk doesn’t face legal issues. The rights to use Shulk can easily be obtained, though I can imagine that Sakurai must ask for permission to use Shulk and any other content from Xenoblade Chronicles. I mention this, as it’s a rather popular misconception since people believe that Shulk is a third party character. Second, Nintendo didn’t buy out Monolith Soft when Xenoblade was released. They owned them prior to that moment. So, those who say that Nintendo bought Monolith after Xenoblade and using that as a point are rather wrong.

2. Sakurai acknowledges Xenoblade and its existence. He might be a fan of it for all we know and the roster was decided when Xenoblade was released in areas outside of Japan.

Spoiler

Speaking of Sakurai, he acknowledges Xenoblade. While he has to have the knowledge of many Nintendo franchises, it’s still nice to see that he is at least aware of Xenoblade and how big this series is. In fact, on his Twitter, he posted a pic of Shulk’s sword, the Monado.

For all we know, Sakurai could be a fan of Xenoblade and would love for the series to get represented in Smash. This definitely helps out Shulk’s case, especially when the time stamp of this pic is during SSB4’s development. For all we know, Sakurai could be a big fan of this game and would love for it to get represented in Smash. Xenoblade being released in other areas when the roster was decided in 2012 helps this home in on this fact. Sakurai may have caught wind of the Xenoblade madness that was going on at the time.

3. Shulk isn’t a generic swordsman; he could be one of the most unique characters in Smash thanks to his sword, the Monado. He would be one of the easiest characters to create a moveset with.

Spoiler

Shulk has uniqueness. We’ve seen all sorts of characters have a unique element to them. Villager has his items, Mega Man has the Robot Master’s weapons and tons of projectiles, Wii Fit Trainer attacks with yoga poses, Rosalina has her Lumas and puppeteer moveset, and Little Mac has his Power Meter and punches. What does Shulk have that could make him unique? The god-slaying sword, the Monado. The Monado is what sets up his uniqueness. I hate how people call him “generic” and that he would be “just another sword user.” It tells me that these people haven’t played Xenoblade, haven’t seen footage of the game, or are using excuses to hate Shulk. The Monado is vastly different than some of the swords that have been seen in Smash. The Monado has its own powers that help separate it from the other weapons that we’ve seen in Smash, thus making the Monado a standout weapon. Shulk has various Monado Arts that he can use in battle. He can use Monado Buster to charge up the attack and this in turn would increase the length of the Monado for his neutral special, use Monado Eater to send out a projectile and that projectile will cause poison damage as his side special, use Monado Speed to recover in his up special, use Monado Shield as a reflector and move around with the move being active as his down special, and use Monado Cyclone to create a massive pillar as his Final Smash. Other than Monado Arts that I’ve mentioned (there are others like Monado Enchant, Monado Armor, and Monado Purge), he has his own Arts like Back Slash, Slit Edge, Shaker Edge, Stream Edge, and Air Slash. Sometimes Sakurai isn’t faithful to some characters, thus Shulk could use Arts from other characters, like Reyn’s Aura Burst or Dunban’s Gale Slash for example, in some of his standard attacks. If Shulk had another gimmick like Little Mac’s Power Meter, it would could a Level Up system where his attacks would become more powerful and level up as Shulk continues to dish out damage at his opponents. Shulk can also have visions, which help him see into the future and prevent something horrible from occurring. However, I have a hard time imagining how the visions can be incorporated in a moveset as the pacing of Smash Bros. is far different than the pacing of Xenoblade. While the Monado is a big sword, it’s nothing like Ike’s sword. Shulk’s speed and weight would be in the middle, unlike Ike who is slow and heavy. Shulk’s play-style could involve prediction, which could be similar in vain to the visions. If you predict your opponent correctly, you could use one of Shulk’s devastating attacks to deal damage or finish off the opponent. If you predict wrongly, you could leave yourself wide open for an attack. I know that Sakurai is having trouble creating movesets for various characters nowadays since there aren’t many characters left who would fit in this environment, but Shulk already has moveset potential and it would be easy for Sakurai to convert Shulk as a fighter.

4. Shulk has absolutely no competition. Isaac is by no means considered competition for Shulk as Isaac could easily get on the roster along with Shulk; it’s absolutely pointless and stupid to say and start arguments that they are. Even if Shulk was competing against the other Rainfall heroes, Zael and Aeron, Shulk blows them away with the critical reception, sales, and popularity Xenoblade garnered.

Spoiler

Competition? That’s non-existent. I have seen some sort of “blond trio” group of Shulk, Isaac, and Saki. The truth of the matter is that neither of these characters even compare to Shulk. Isaac? You can argue that they are fighting to become the quintessential JRPG rep, but I don’t see these two competing and I think that they can both get in. Isaac’s moveset potential comes from his psynergy and seeing some Golden Sun footage for various attacks that Isaac can use, they are nothing like Shulk’s Monado Arts and the regular Arts that other characters can use in Xenoblade. Saki? While he was sadly disconfirmed to return as an Assist Trophy, I must explain why Shulk and Saki arguments are pointless. Saki’s game is an on rails shooter and his uniqueness is set up with projectiles and melee combat from his sword; this sword doesn’t have any sort of mythical powers like the Monado and Xenoblade is a JRPG. This one is by far one of the dumbest of debates. These series aren’t even comparable to Xenoblade right now; Xenoblade is getting time in the limelight, Golden Sun hasn’t been heard from in years, and Sin and Punishment had a revival and was forgotten shortly after. The competition with the other Rainfall heroes is also rather small. Zael’s and Aeron’s respective games did not meet with the same success that Xenoblade did. Xenoblade had better sales and better critical reception than The Last Story and Pandora’s Tower. I can see them get on the roster as DLC characters, but I can’t see them be in direct competition with Shulk. If they are seen as competition, then Shulk has beaten them by a landslide. Zael’s, Aeron’s, and their respective game’s popularity are miniscule compared to the popularity that Shulk and Xenoblade have. I can’t see Shulk have any form of competition to worry about.

5. Nintendo has been acknowledging Xenoblade as of late. The series has an immediate future and Nintendo might push Xenoblade to become something even bigger.

Spoiler

Xenoblade is currently getting recognition. All right, this is a minor point that I have added from my original post, but it’s still something that kind of helps Shulk. You think that Nintendo would want to not mention about the Operation Rainfall games and that they would put those games behind them. However, to my surprise, they are acknowledging and embracing Xenoblade. With Xenoblade getting mentioned in the latest Nintendo Direct and even having its own Puzzle Swap, it shows that Nintendo might push to make Xenoblade something even bigger. With X getting released some time in the future, Xenoblade is sure to have an immediate future. I am unsure if X is a sequel to Xenoblade, but I am confident that it is. In any case, I don’t believe X helps Shulk and I don’t think that he would get in Smash just to promote X. We aren’t even sure if he’s in the game! Regardless, I find that Nintendo acknowledging Xenoblade and giving it credit may affect Sakurai’s decisions.

6. The demand for Xenoblade is far greater than the supply for it. Many people are willing to buy this game and the prices for it are absolutely outrageous. The demand for Xenoblade may have caused Nintendo to pay close attention on Xenoblade and to promote it more.

Spoiler

People often say that Xenoblade is a very niche RPG and an incredibly obscure one at that. The reason for this is not because it is unpopular or it was unheard of. The game was a GameStop exclusive that was sold for a limited amount of time. Naturally, when the demand goes up, the supply does as well in the rule of supply and demand. Unfortunately, this isn’t the case with Xenoblade. The game wasn’t given a full retail release and was instead a GameStop exclusive, meaning that there are limited copies in only GameStop. Websites like Amazon and eBay fetch a high price for Xenoblade Chronicles! I’ve seen one copy of the game cost for $175! My own copy that I bought at GameStop, which was apparently “used,” was $70, the price of a new game! This is absolutely critical as it may have lead to Nintendo to promote the series more. Nintendo is aware of Xenoblade and the amount of sales that it could bring with it. If they didn’t, X wouldn’t be promoted as a major title for the Wii U, they wouldn’t give Xenoblade its own Puzzle Swap in the StreetPass feature for the 3DS, and they would have left it behind in the burner and make it to be dormant alongside F-Zero and Star Fox. Xenoblade’s high demand made Nintendo realize the error of their ways by not giving it a full retail release and instead give it a limited one. With X coming along the way, Nintendo shouldn’t make the same mistake they made before.

7. Shulk is one of the most requested characters worldwide. The casual fanbase might not know who Shulk is or what Xenoblade is, but there are already unknown characters to the casual fanbase that are already on the roster in Smash. This is a character that is impossible for Sakurai to ignore.

Spoiler

This is the most important. Shulk has worldwide demand; more specifically his popularity is coming from Japan. People in America and other areas may have not played Xenoblade, but they have at least heard of it and might think that Shulk would be a cool addition in Smash, thus he is still getting requests in those areas. In fact, his Operation Rainfall support is still going strong to this day. It’s critical in Japan as they help Sakurai determine who would be popular picks on the roster. According to Chrono, Shulk is by far one of the most requested characters in that region. Who know who else is? A confirmed Mega Man, a god-tiered requested King K. Rool, and a possibly leaked Palutena. Shulk is also the most requested character that is not from a represented series in Japan. He did have competition for that category in Starfy, but Shulk now dominates it in Japan after when Starfy was confirmed to return as an Assist Trophy. Even in various polls, Shulk has managed to be consistent on the top of numerous lists. Even when these are just polls, want lists, and requests, they add up to hundreds or even thousands of times that Shulk’s name has been mentioned. I’ve heard arguments that Shulk shouldn’t be in Smash Bros. as he is an unknown or obscure character. While newer gamers probably won’t know who he is, he still has the requests and the popularity from Xenoblade to back up his notability. There are characters that we know that others don’t know. One of the biggest examples here is Little Mac; the people in the US were absolutely ecstatic to see him get included while the Japanese viewed him as obscure and as an unknown character. I also recall people in the Daily Miiverse Pics thread say that they have no idea who Captain Rainbow was or what his game is even about when the fat Little Mac pic was shown in a Pic of the Day. Just because Xenoblade and Shulk have relative obscurity among the casual fanbase shouldn’t hurt Shulk by any means, especially when the king of Nintendo obscurity is getting represented in SSB4 in some form. So, calling Shulk too obscure or too unknown for SSB4 is yet another weak argument as Shulk has the fans and the support to help push him into SSB4. Shulk is definitely a character that is impossible for Sakurai to ignore.

Honestly, this is what I think and believe his chances are. I could mention the Monolith Tweet before the Direct or the new Sal Romano leak where Shulk is listed alongside “a Pokemon from X and Y” (Greninja) as being a newcomer in Smash, but these won’t factor into why I believe Shulk has an incredible chance of making it into SSB4. They are important in regards to possible hinting towards his inclusion, but there is no proof that Shulk is in SSB4.
Once again, I am not telling you that Shulk is a shoo-in. Despite this, he is probably one of the strongest contenders that could appear in Smash Bros. The amount of evidence and information that supports his inclusion is absolutely gigantic. It would be a giant surprise if he doesn’t make it in SSB4 at all, whether as a playable character or as an Assist Trophy or in any other form. Shulk is a Nintendo All-Star and is one of Nintendo’s newest uprising children. I believe that Shulk is ready to obtain his spot on the roster.
All of these points link to one major point overall; he has a ton of merits. He has so much going for him and very little against him. He is a major contender for Smash 4 and he should not be underestimated.

 

[Hype Train]

@Brawler610: Major props for writting all of that. I would like to read it but I'm usually too busy to do so. I would like to hear what you all think. If you all like it, I'll add it to the OP.

I would say that you should add something about the current price at Amazon and EBay. The price is high which means demand for this game is very high.

Honestly, it's probably the best post in this thread. It deserves to be highlighted in the OP, imo.

(Even though it's about as big as the Bionis itself).

 

[GuyWithTheFace]

It's a good post. 10/10, would add to OP.

 

[Mishudo]

I can't imagine the ****storm that's gonna happen if only Shulk or Isaac gets in. For the love of peace everywhere, just confirm both so both sides can beat each other up in the game.

 

[Pega-pony Princess]

I can't imagine the ****storm that's gonna happen if only Shulk or Isaac gets in. For the love of peace everywhere, just confirm both so both sides can beat each other up in the game.

Agreed. I wonder what the trailer would be like...

 

[JaidynReiman]

Frankly I support both Isaac and Shulk and think both can get in at the same time. I don't quite think Shulk is a shoe-in, mainly due to the recency factor and because of how new the IP is; it would definitely be a first since there's only one game in the series before release of Smash Bros. and its not known how X will play into it, either. Pokemon is a different thing all-together because it was already massive and had three games by the time 64 came out, with another one already in development.

I have no arguments about how Shulk's moveset would be, since I haven't played Xenoblade Chronicles and likely never will. Mainly because I can't afford the game. I just have concerns about the recency factor, but I definitely think Shulk could still get in over that, and I think Isaac is in as well. And I agree, I would like them both to just be confirmed so we don't have to worry about one overshadowing the other.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Of course im NOT going to count Xenoblade as a a continuation of "Xeno", as well that im not going to count X if Monolith soft does not confirm that. What kind of reasoning if that? I must count any of the other Camelot games with Golden Sun? Some of them have the same music composer that makes extremely simmilar soundtracks, in fact why we dont count all videogames that contain music of the same composer, including SSBB. Also going to count all the Spin-off of Mario that Camelot developed. Oh my god! Isaac chances increased a lot...
He must be part of the game indeed.

Really? You're actually going to compare me grouping all the Xeno games together to Golden Sun and Mario Golf?

Okay, first of all, Monolith Soft hasn't just made Xeno games. Off the top of my head I can say that they have made games such as Chrono Cross, Baten Kaitos 1 and 2, Project X Zone, Disater: Day of Crisis, and Soma Bringer. I am not saying that all of those game belong to the same series as Xenoblade. Just the games with Xeno in the title. These games might not be a continuation in the same way the Golden Sun games are, but they do share the same theme, story elements, and visual style. You know, kind of like Dragon's Quest or Final Fantasy games, and no one says they aren't part of the same series. The only thing that complicates this is that the games were made for different publishers.

I'm not the only one that thinks of the Xeno series as being an actual series, either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeno_(series)

 

[SkittleE]

This is the type of bullcrap that I am fearing in the future.

Sir, with the Monado, you have nothing to fear from the future.

Although if I picked up the Monado it would go all apeshoosh on me and I'd be dragged all over the place before something managed to deactivate it, so maybe I'm not the best person to go to for prediction advice.

Oh, and the Xeno games clearly have the same style going on connecting them, besides the name. It seems like System Shock/Bioshock to me. Or even Bioshock Infinite, clearly being a Bioshock game besides not being set in the same, ahem, universe.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Possible HD remaster of Xenoblade? It would certainly help out Shulk's chances.

http://segmentnext.com/2014/06/03/xenoblade-wii-u-listed-multiple-retailers-hd-remake/

It's probably just thier place holder title for X I would imagine though.

 

[GuyWithTheFace]

Possible HD remaster of Xenoblade? It would certainly help out Shulk's chances.

http://segmentnext.com/2014/06/03/xenoblade-wii-u-listed-multiple-retailers-hd-remake/

It's probably just thier place holder title for X I would imagine though.

Almost certainly. Xenoblade's only 4 years old, it doesn't seem like time yet for an HD remake.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Not to mention it's an extreme rarity. We have ONE copy at the gaming store I work at and it's 80 bucks to buy, 10 bucks if you just wanna play it (AND we normally charge 4 bucks)

 

[Pega-pony Princess]

Not to mention it's an extreme rarity. We have ONE copy at the gaming store I work at and it's 80 bucks to buy, 10 bucks if you just wanna play it (AND we normally charge 4 bucks)

Those $80 bucks are totally worth it though. I don't regret getting it in the slightest.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I saw 2 copies for 50 bucks each used at a Gamestop near me recently, so it's not as bad as it used to be.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Those $80 bucks are totally worth it though. I don't regret getting it in the slightest.

Still. We keep that bad boy locked up tight.

 

[Raetah]

Here is the final version of my arguments that showcase both his pros and cons:
Now, this post is absolutely gigantic. As a result, I will sum up my post in one to three sentences. If you want more detailed reasoning, then click on the spoilers!
First off, let’s start by listing the negatives.
1. Xenoblade is still a new franchise. However, it’s incredibly unfair to call Shulk “too new” when other characters were more new than him prior to their Smash debuts. Greninja’s confirmation kills these “too new” arguments.

Spoiler

Xenoblade is still a new franchise. This is unfortunately true, though I don’t think that this hurts Shulk’s chances too much. While it definitely doesn’t have the longevity or the notability of Mario or Zelda, Xenoblade is still very well-known and highly praised. One argument that I often hear against Shulk is that he is “too new,” which I find to be as stupid as calling King K. Rool “too big.” Why? Xenoblade came out in 2010 in Japan, and thus you have had 4 years to warm up to Shulk before he could potentially appear in Smash. That time period is actually longer than some vets before their debut appearance in their respective Smash appearances. You know when Pokemon Red and Green (or Blue as it’s called here in America) came out in? 1996. When did the first SSB come out in? 1999. Pokemon to SSB 64 is a shorter time span than Xenoblade to SSB4. If we look at Pichu, Pokemon Gold and Silver were released in 1999, 2 years before Melee. Heck, Lucario only existed for 3 years before his debut in Brawl if we count his initial debut to be Pokemon: Lucario and the Mystery of Mew; Lucario’s game debut was in 2006 with Pokemon Diamond and Pearl and those games were released 2 years before Brawl. Outside of Pokemon, Fire Emblem also follows this case. Ike’s first Fire Emblem game, Path of Radiance, was released in 2005 and Brawl was released in 2008; Path of Radiance was released 3 years before Brawl. Fire Emblem: Awakening came out in 2012 in Japan, that’s two years before SSB4 might be released. Xenoblade Chronicles has been released for a longer time than Awakening, so does that mean that Chrom, Lucina, Robin, and all of the other Awakening characters that people want in Smash are too new as well? A much better example is Roy in Melee; his game was released after Melee, being too new didn’t stop him there. My reasoning for bringing up these characters is to make a point; why should people call Shulk “too new” when other characters were much more new than him in their respective Smash debuts. One major development that helps murder these “too new” arguments is Greninja’s confirmation. Pokemon X and Y came out in October of 2013 and it was confirmed to be playable in April of 2014, months later after its initial debut. This means that Shulk isn’t “too new” for Smash 4 like people are claiming. His series is new, but that doesn’t mean that should prevent his inclusion in SSB4. I just find the notion of Shulk being “too new” to be an absolutely stupid and tasteless argument that I can’t believe that people are using against Shulk.

2. Shulk has only appeared in one game so far. Despite the fact that he could be a one-off, we’ve seen various one-offs in Smash (like Sheik). The X protagonist won’t get in over Shulk as he isn’t demanded and we don’t even know whom he is.

Spoiler

Shulk only appeared in one game. This isn’t detrimental, but it’s still something notable. Maybe Sakurai would think that Shulk doesn’t deserve to get in SSB4 since he only appeared in one game. However, we’ve seen various one-offs in the Smash universe, so I don’t find this to be hurtful towards Shulk. I mean, Lucas has only appeared in Mother 3 and he got in Brawl. Speaking of one-offs, I’ve seen arguments against Shulk saying that he would be a one-off and wouldn’t get in Smash. I disagree with this. Shulk is the first protagonist of Xenoblade and is still a very highly requested character. There is no way that someone from X is going to get in before Shulk, especially when people don’t know who the main protagonist is (we don’t even know the NAME of the main protagonist of X yet!). Sheik is a one-off character from the Zelda universe and she got in Smash; Roy is also a one-off and he got in Melee and people are clamoring for his return. So, I find this to be a weak argument as well.

3. Xenoblade’s sales weren’t the absolute best. While this is true, some franchises represented in Smash didn’t have impressive sales either. Xenoblade’s sales won’t make Sakurai overlook him.

Spoiler

Xenoblade didn’t have the best sales. While sales are important, you have to understand that Xenoblade had a limited release in the US. Copies are scarce and the game was only released in GameStops in the US. I am not so sure how well it sold in other areas, but the game definitely left an impact on those who have played it and haven’t played it. So, I find Xenoblade’s poor sales to be a minor factor in this case. Some series with poor sales are getting represented in Smash; the biggest example here is EarthBound. Heck, even Captain Rainbow is getting some content in Smash. Remember that fat Little Mac trophy? That was from Captain Rainbow, an obscure game that was only released in Japan and it had extremely poor sales. In fact, the sales were so bad that the European port was cancelled! While Xenoblade doesn’t have the best sales in the world, I don’t think that Sakurai will overlook Shulk and Xenoblade at all.

Im going to start with adding one of the cons that was not mentioned here. "Xeno" is not a real series, therefore Xenoblade does not belong to any series. I know, Ice Climbers are not part of a series. There is a problem with those counter-arguments in where you mention examples of characters with a "simmilar" situation. And is that you are considering each of the cons individually. Lets make this countback:

4. Characters that dont belong to a series: Ice Climbers (although that it could be considered that they have a series). While Ice Climbers do not have a series, they a far from being recent. So, they were not in the same position than Shulk.

3. Characters without impressive sales: EarthBound-Mother. EarthBound or Mother is a series something that Xenoblade is not at the moment. So, characters of EarthBound-Mother were not in the same situation than Shulk.

2. Characters exclusive of one game: Many. There are some characters of SSB that were exclusive of one game during its inclusion, however they were either part of a series, they were old characters or the game of those characters had high sales.

1. New Characters: Many. Greninja is new, but is part of a series. Pokemon Red-Blue and Pokemon Gold-Silver had high sales and also are a series (This includes Jigglypuff, Pikachu, Mewtwo and Pichu). Lucario? Part of a series. Fire Emblem characters are part of a series.

Now try to find a character in SSB, that does not have a REAL series, that does not have impressive sales, that is exclusive of one game and that in top of that is a new character. Come on. Find, just, one.

4. Shulk has absolutely no competition. Isaac is by no means considered competition for Shulk as Isaac could easily get on the roster along with Shulk; it’s absolutely pointless and stupid to say and start arguments that they are. Even if Shulk was competing against the other Rainfall heroes, Zael and Aeron, Shulk blows them away with the critical reception, sales, and popularity Xenoblade garnered.

Spoiler

Competition? That’s non-existent. I have seen some sort of “blond trio” group of Shulk, Isaac, and Saki. The truth of the matter is that neither of these characters even compare to Shulk. Isaac? You can argue that they are fighting to become the quintessential JRPG rep, but I don’t see these two competing and I think that they can both get in. Isaac’s moveset potential comes from his psynergy and seeing some Golden Sun footage for various attacks that Isaac can use, they are nothing like Shulk’s Monado Arts and the regular Arts that other characters can use in Xenoblade. Saki? While he was sadly disconfirmed to return as an Assist Trophy, I must explain why Shulk and Saki arguments are pointless. Saki’s game is an on rails shooter and his uniqueness is set up with projectiles and melee combat from his sword; this sword doesn’t have any sort of mythical powers like the Monado and Xenoblade is a JRPG. This one is by far one of the dumbest of debates. These series aren’t even comparable to Xenoblade right now; Xenoblade is getting time in the limelight, Golden Sun hasn’t been heard from in years, and Sin and Punishment had a revival and was forgotten shortly after. The competition with the other Rainfall heroes is also rather small. Zael’s and Aeron’s respective games did not meet with the same success that Xenoblade did. Xenoblade had better sales and better critical reception than The Last Story and Pandora’s Tower. I can see them get on the roster as DLC characters, but I can’t see them be in direct competition with Shulk. If they are seen as competition, then Shulk has beaten them by a landslide. Zael’s, Aeron’s, and their respective game’s popularity are miniscule compared to the popularity that Shulk and Xenoblade have. I can’t see Shulk have any form of competition to worry about.

Read my previous message.

 

[GuyWithTheFace]

Those $80 bucks are totally worth it though. I don't regret getting it in the slightest.

I bought it for $90, and then the other day I saw it at Gamestop for like $45 used.

Still, no regrets though! Worth every penny.

 

[Spazzy_D]

@ R Raetah I still don't see what your point is, you just keep adding more modifiers.

I could do the same thing for a bunch of characters.

K. Rool? Name one villain that that has not appeared in the past two main line games of a series that was included into Smash!

Isaac? Even better because I can add some modifiers. Name one second Party character that has made it in that wasn't created by HAL (the studio that created Smash- as well as Mother and Kirby) AND doesn't have massive sales that are too large to ignore? (Pokémon)

 

[Deleted member]

I bought my copy for $70 and I hold no regrets.
I would love to see an HD remake on the Wii U. It might be too soon I suppose, but an HD remake will help new players get adjusted to Shulk and know what the world of Xenoblade is like before they play X. Not only that, but an HD remake means more people can play this amazing game! Besides, who wouldn't want to see Gaur Plains and Eryth Sea on the Wii U in glorious HD?
I'm certainly hoping that this "Xenoblade Wii U" thing is actually happening and is not just a tentative title for X.

 

[Raetah]

@ R Raetah I still don't see what your point is, you just keep adding more modifiers.

I could do the same thing for a bunch of characters.

K. Rool? Name one villain that that has not appeared in the past two main line games of a series that was included into Smash!

Isaac? Even better because I can add some modifiers. Name one second Party character that has made it in that wasn't created by HAL (the studio that created Smash- as well as Mother and Kirby) AND doesn't have massive sales that are too large to ignore? (Pokémon)

The only 2nd party characters of Smash are Pokemon characters. Also 1st is not me who created those arguments against Shulk, i just wanted to show that the comparisons used in those Counter-arguments are not reasonable. At the end, that does not mean much in Shulk possibilities of being in the game, but bad comparison are bad comparisons and i must take down thoses.

 

[Spazzy_D]

The only 2nd party characters of Smash are Pokemon characters. Also 1st is not me who created those arguments against Shulk, i just wanted to show that the comparisons used in those Counter-arguments are not reasonable. At the end, that does not mean much in Shulk possibilities of being in the game, but bad comparison are bad comparisons and i must take down thoses.

No, because you assume the sum of arguments are greater then the arguments themselves.

New characters have been added to Smash - Greninja.
Characters with one game in their series have been added to Smash - Ice Climbers.
Characters that don't have impressive sales - Earthbound. Although, Nintendo actually WAS happy with the Sales of Xenoblade, so I'm not sure this is even an actual point.

So none of these are reasons against inclusion. If none, individually, are reasons for exclusion, why would they collectively be a reason?

Also, here you go:

http://www.hallab.co.jp/company_data_en.html

Nintendo does not have controlling interest in HAL. Mother and Kirby are technically second party, and Ness largely got in for the same reasons people think Pacman is getting in. (HAL made Smash 64)

 

[RawstyleEevee]

Xenoblade didn't have bad sales, it sold out.
The west(or to my observation atleast Europe) tends to view all JRPG's that aren't Final Fantasy or Pokemon as "Niché titles that won't sell well & don't have a fanbase" & due this reason retailers only put in a very limited stock for those kind of games.

Fire Emblem Awakening & Bravely Default for example were pretty hard to find here in Belgium & the Netherlands on release date & I'm pretty sure over a few months Bravely Default atleast will be Xenoblade rare & your only hope is finding it in an online store, which is how I got my copy of Xenoblade btw fellow Shulk supporters xD

 

[ChibiIceClimberz]

Im going to start with adding one of the cons that was not mentioned here. "Xeno" is not a real series, therefore Xenoblade does not belong to any series. I know, Ice Climbers are not part of a series. There is a problem with those counter-arguments in where you mention examples of characters with a "simmilar" situation. And is that you are considering each of the cons individually. Lets make this countback:

4. Characters that dont belong to a series: Ice Climbers (although that it could be considered that they have a series). While Ice Climbers do not have a series, they a far from being recent. So, they were not in the same position than Shulk.

3. Characters without impressive sales: EarthBound-Mother. EarthBound or Mother is a series something that Xenoblade is not at the moment. So, characters of EarthBound-Mother were not in the same situation than Shulk.

2. Characters exclusive of one game: Many. There are some characters of SSB that were exclusive of one game during its inclusion, however they were either part of a series, they were old characters or the game of those characters had high sales.

1. New Characters: Many. Greninja is new, but is part of a series. Pokemon Red-Blue and Pokemon Gold-Silver had high sales and also are a series (This includes Jigglypuff, Pikachu, Mewtwo and Pichu). Lucario? Part of a series. Fire Emblem characters are part of a series.

Now try to find a character in SSB, that does not have a REAL series, that does not have impressive sales, that is exclusive of one game and that in top of that is a new character. Come on. Find, just, one.

Read my previous message.

Uh, now you're just grasping at straws.

A game series is a sequences of games, meaning if you have more than one game in a franchise, it is a series. Xeno is a series created by Tetsuya Takahashi, and he intended it to be a series, even if they're not much related to each other. The whole series is comprised of Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Xenoblade, thus making it a series, which in turn makes the whole series a franchise.

Xenoblade only sold less than 800,000 copies with no advertisements and limited print. It also came out on the end of the Wii's lifecycle. That is impressive for a niche title. Do you know how many niche Japanese RPGs sell nowadays that isn't named Pokémon, Final Fantasy, or Kingdom Hearts in the West? Less than half a million. Only a few games like Xenoblade, Ni No Kuni, Fire Emblem Awakening, and Bravely Default manage to sell nearly a million.

Also, R.O.B. totally debunks your argument.

Oh, and just to let you guys know, the colloquial term "second-party" is only used for third-party developers only. All characters in Smash that aren't Snake, Sonic, or Mega Man are of first-party property. Game Freak, AlphaDream, Platinum Games, Next Level Games, Koei Tecmo, and other third-party partnerships are examples of second-party developers. As long as a game is trademarked by Nintendo, even if they're not internally developed, it is first-party.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Uh, now you're just grasping at straws.

A series is a sequences of games, meaning if you have more than one game in a franchise, it is a series. Thus, Xeno is a series. It is a series created by Tetsuya Takahashi, and he intended the Xeno series to be a series, even if they're not much related to each other. The whole series is comprised of Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Xenoblade, making the whole series a franchise.

Xenoblade only sold less than 800,000 copies with no advertisements and limited print. It also came out on the end of the Wii's lifecycle. That is impressive for a niche title. Do you know how many niche Japanese RPGs sell nowadays that isn't named Pokémon, Final Fantasy, or Kingdom Hearts in the West? Less than half a million. Only a few games like Xenoblade, Ni No Kuni, and Bravely Default manage to sell nearly a million.

Also, R.O.B. totally debunks your argument.

Oh, and just to let you guys know, the colloquial term "second-party" doesn't exist for games or characters but for third-party developers only. All characters in Smash that aren't Snake, Sonic, or Mega Man are of first-party property. Game Freak, AlphaDream, Platinum Games, Next Level Games, Koei Tecmo, and other third-party partnerships are examples of second-party developers.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/42966/xenoblade-chronicles/

Xenoblade sold over 860,000 units, actually. I don't believe this number includes the shipments Gamestop received last Christmas, which would likely push it over 900k.

 

[SkittleE]

Possible HD remaster of Xenoblade? It would certainly help out Shulk's chances.

http://segmentnext.com/2014/06/03/xenoblade-wii-u-listed-multiple-retailers-hd-remake/

It's probably just thier place holder title for X I would imagine though.

Oh lawdy, an HD remaster of Xenoblade has been a want of mine for so long. It's already incredibly beautiful with PS2 graphics going on, imagine just how gorgeous it could be in HD!

I bought my copy for $70 and I hold no regrets.

Heh, I'm one lucky jerk, I got my copy of Xenoblade for free. I didn't even know how rare and expensive it was until way later, sucks for the guy who bought it for me. ^^" (To clarify, a forum I'm on was holding a summer sale to go along with Steam, you pay coins you get from posting to get things like games. I was choosing between Skyward Sword and Xenoblade, I'm so happy I went with the latter.)

 

[DraginHikari]

I'd say that is pretty good for a game that NoA was refusing to consider for so long because they assumed it would bomb and then when they did release it was handled so haphazardly that copies started becoming as much as they were.