Has anyone found any Zard changes for 2.6?

[ItalianStallion]

Played a lot again tonight with my smash apprentices (2 guys I'm training). There is no scene here so I just decided to slowly start one. They have improved a lot since I started training them at the beginning of summer, but they still have a ways to go.

Anyway, even though Zard seems to have been slightly nerfed in 2.6 (Won't know til change-log), they still find him to be really hard to play against. They tout his speed, his range, and his ability to have an answer for pretty much any defensive reaction they try.

I also find him to still be uber in 2.6. I need to play harder opponents more often to be sure (Hardest PM opponent I have played was J666), but I still think Zard is amazingly powerful, but he has to be used in the most aggressive way you can in order to get the most out of him. I will be very surprised if I see a Zard player that ends up being top of the line that doesn't go balls out pretty much all the time. I'm not sure there is a character in PM that is made to be played as or more aggressively than Zard is. This is one of the main reasons I love him. My super duper aggressive play-style gets rewarded by using Charizard rather than punished when I use someone like Falco or Falcon.

 

[bubbaking]

Dthrow is a lot better, you can react out of it now.

It has to be as soon as they tech though,otherwise you won't be quick enough.

As far as I've seen, 2.6 Zard's dthrow is exactly the same as it was in 2.5b, which is noticeably nerfed from how it was in 2.1. Spacees will still punish him with shine on-wakeup if Zard isn't practically frame-perfect with his reaction after dthrow. Dsmash being slightly changed additionally hurts the whole dthrow > dsmash core, but oh well...

Anyway, even though Zard seems to have been slightly nerfed in 2.6 (Won't know til change-log), they still find him to be really hard to play against. They tout his speed, his range, and his ability to have an answer for pretty much any defensive reaction they try.

I also find him to still be uber in 2.6. I need to play harder opponents more often to be sure (Hardest PM opponent I have played was J666), but I still think Zard is amazingly powerful, but he has to be used in the most aggressive way you can in order to get the most out of him. I will be very surprised if I see a Zard player that ends up being top of the line that doesn't go balls out pretty much all the time. I'm not sure there is a character in PM that is made to be played as or more aggressively than Zard is. This is one of the main reasons I love him. My super duper aggressive play-style gets rewarded by using Charizard rather than punished when I use someone like Falco or Falcon.

I heavily disagree. Zard, for me, has been one of the most rewarding chars of defensive play I have ever seen. All of his traits practically scream it to me. I am a fairly defensive player myself, having Melee Samus, vBrawl DDD, and P:M ROB roots, and Zard really milks all the defensiveness out of me. His tilts are fast, ranged, and strong. His sideB is super good at punishing baited approaches. His great dash means he can DD camp, and supplemented with a great grab and usmash, it lets him easily kill or set up anything off of baited actions. His jab also, man, that jab is like Sheik's ftilt. You just stuff every approach and combo off of it. In addition to all that, his nair is, like, the epitome of a great defensive tool. It even lets him air and platform camp a bit.

I'm not saying that Zard can't be aggro - your style probably makes it work - but I think that a top Zard main could easily play optimally while favoring a defensive playstyle.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Hey Bubbaking I agree and will like your post.

I'm surprised too.

But Charizard feels like wet sludge at the moment so any issues being voiced about him will ring in tune for me.

Oh and as for Defense vs Offense, Charizard is in the same category as Falcon basically, which is defensive baiting into "offensive" momentum. He doesn't have the kind of empty hop, frame trap, or other fakes offensive houses like Wolf do, so he seems much more suited to stuffing options rather than forcing them.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Played a lot again tonight with my smash apprentices (2 guys I'm training). There is no scene here so I just decided to slowly start one. They have improved a lot since I started training them at the beginning of summer, but they still have a ways to go.

Anyway, even though Zard seems to have been slightly nerfed in 2.6 (Won't know til change-log), they still find him to be really hard to play against. They tout his speed, his range, and his ability to have an answer for pretty much any defensive reaction they try.

I also find him to still be uber in 2.6. I need to play harder opponents more often to be sure (Hardest PM opponent I have played was J666), but I still think Zard is amazingly powerful, but he has to be used in the most aggressive way you can in order to get the most out of him. I will be very surprised if I see a Zard player that ends up being top of the line that doesn't go balls out pretty much all the time. I'm not sure there is a character in PM that is made to be played as or more aggressively than Zard is. This is one of the main reasons I love him. My super duper aggressive play-style gets rewarded by using Charizard rather than punished when I use someone like Falco or Falcon.

Your profile says Springville, CA. If it's the same Springville I know from Cali (Tulare County), you should check Porterville for smashers. That's where I'm from and we used to have a pretty decent scene back in the day. PM me if you'd like and I may be able to help you get in contact with some of my old friends if they still play.

So as to keep this post on topic, I agree in that Charizard is defensive until he gets that first hit and then goes all out, kind of like Falcon. Also I think his jab may very well be the best in the game, yeah?

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Strongly disagree with that one zivilyn... It's a great move, but i prefer jabs that aren't launchers, but safety options :D

As for changes:
I don't know how much the Dsmash change will hurt, haven't played alot of 2.6 yet and most of it was online... I think it makes followups on floaty chars impossible (not that you get alot of dsmashs vs floaties/ light characters)

The recovery change is a bad move. Charizard is a huge combo target and an incredibly easy edgeguard target, if it wasn't for his super quick glide-attack. His sweetspot out of jump or UpB is horrible, his glide is hella slow and basically only goes one way. If you take away the option of canceling the glide and stalling with 1 or 2 jumps, or turning the edgeguard around charizards only options are the following:

recover with your 2 jumps. Forces you to try to sweetspot, which is horrible because charizard is slow in the air and still huge or to attack or dodge to get on stage. Opponents can just wait on stage and punish by shielding and reacting. well, ****.
Other option: recover low with jumps and UpB. I don't think anyone will not have a safe way of destroying an UpBing charizard. Going low vs. Ivysaur for example is instant death, if ivysaur knows how to use Uair. Same vs anybody with a spike or low reaching ground attack (Marth e.g.)

Starting glide early is no longer an option, except if you are forced to do so because you failed to recover on first attempt. Gliding towards the stage slowly will give the opponent enough time to follow your movement and intercept you, if he knows how to handle your glideattack.

So the only thing the glide is still usefull for is as a suprise attack instead of dropping down and using UpB. Really risky though, as it is countered by crouch, shield, and any attack. So basically everything that isn't "Damn, i didn't know he'd use a glide attack".


The Man is a Dragon. Let him feel like his home is in the sky. Don't make his recovery as limited as bowsers. He has Wings. I'm sad.


Edit: This post may be a bit whiny, but I haven't seen the issue you guys are having with zards glide from the very beginning. It makes his recovery good, but not OP and i feel it fits the character. Maybe i'm to afraid of his recovery "weakness" being exploitable, but in general i think Zard will suffer ALOT once people get the matchups down. If you give him a predictable recovery (which jumps+UpB is) it'll hurt even more.
I'm not demanding it changed back, i just hope you'll consider it in case he's hurt from it too much. time will tell.

 

[Ace55]

I will refrain judgement until I play people who aren't my fsmash spamming friend. I do think his recovery in 2.5 was pretty amazing though.

 

[Binx]

Ive just started playing project m this week but how Im using the glide is by recovering high. This lets me dip and rise to dodge attacks and then float down safely with a nair or bair or something.

It really sucks that I cant use my glide at stage level vs falco at all though because he will laser me once and I lose my jumps and die.

The character does feel a little weak vs fox and falco, and its very difficult to recover vs people who are good with either of those characters. When you land a hit though you get some really nice combos so Im liking the feel of the character overall.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Btw, i got to play some more, and ithe dsmash change is pretty noticable imo. alot less options vs FF, not just floaties. It's no longer possible to chain Dsmashes because everyone can jump out.

As for recovery: Still not liking it... I don't feel like recovery high is a very good option, getting back to the ground and being above the opponent is pretty bad. You can use nair or fair, but people catch on to that quickly and punish it.

 

[JOE!]

I actually managed to get a MK stuck in the body-hitbox of Dsmash a good like, 4 times from 40-whatever %, was pretty funny but yeah why did they do this to Dsmash and glide? ;_;

 

[Ace55]

Played a lot this past week and the recovery nerf hasn't bothered me that much. Although losing only one jump might've been a nice middle ground. The dsmash nerf seemed unnecessary though.

 

[metroid1117]

Hey guys, the changelist is up. Here are Charizard's changes:

-Forward Tilt can be interrupted sooner
-Forward Tilt no longer gets weaker overtime, it's strong throughout the entirety of the move
-Down Tilt sweetspot angle slightly raised
-Down Smash is interruptible a few frames later than before
-Down Smash hitboxes now vary in angles
-Down Smash inner hitboxes have priority over the outer hitboxes
-Neutral B max angle slightly raised and turn speed slightly increased
-Neutral B hitboxes are slightly less SDIable and knockback increased slightly
-Charizard's Glide uses up all of his jumps once used

 

[Emg3]

is there a reason pm took all of zard's jumps once he goes into glide. I feel like it makes him alot worse compared to what he once was.

 

[Oracle]

Because having a character with a crazy on stage game that recovers for free is pretty dumb

 

[Emg3]

zard already had a horrible time dealing with projectiles. taking away his jumps just makes him a sitting duck if he uses glide.

 

[bubbaking]

Zard's on-stage game isn't that crazy. Just play a spacee, Sheik, Marth, or Link and watch how hard it is for Zard to actually approach when he's forced to. Those characters are also the prime offenders of abusing Zard's current recovery. Zard only feels like BS because of his defensive design. He has huge hitboxes that are easy to run into.....so don't run into them if you don't have to. IMO, Zard should be able to glide and use his jumps in any order. He shouldn't get his glide back for being hit, though.

Spoiler

Strongly disagree with that one zivilyn... It's a great move, but i prefer jabs that aren't launchers, but safety options :D

As for changes:
I don't know how much the Dsmash change will hurt, haven't played alot of 2.6 yet and most of it was online... I think it makes followups on floaty chars impossible (not that you get alot of dsmashs vs floaties/ light characters)

The recovery change is a bad move. Charizard is a huge combo target and an incredibly easy edgeguard target, if it wasn't for his super quick glide-attack. His sweetspot out of jump or UpB is horrible, his glide is hella slow and basically only goes one way. If you take away the option of canceling the glide and stalling with 1 or 2 jumps, or turning the edgeguard around charizards only options are the following:

recover with your 2 jumps. Forces you to try to sweetspot, which is horrible because charizard is slow in the air and still huge or to attack or dodge to get on stage. Opponents can just wait on stage and punish by shielding and reacting. well, ****.
Other option: recover low with jumps and UpB. I don't think anyone will not have a safe way of destroying an UpBing charizard. Going low vs. Ivysaur for example is instant death, if ivysaur knows how to use Uair. Same vs anybody with a spike or low reaching ground attack (Marth e.g.)

Starting glide early is no longer an option, except if you are forced to do so because you failed to recover on first attempt. Gliding towards the stage slowly will give the opponent enough time to follow your movement and intercept you, if he knows how to handle your glideattack.

So the only thing the glide is still usefull for is as a suprise attack instead of dropping down and using UpB. Really risky though, as it is countered by crouch, shield, and any attack. So basically everything that isn't "Damn, i didn't know he'd use a glide attack".


The Man is a Dragon. Let him feel like his home is in the sky. Don't make his recovery as limited as bowsers. He has Wings. I'm sad.


Edit: This post may be a bit whiny, but I haven't seen the issue you guys are having with zards glide from the very beginning. It makes his recovery good, but not OP and i feel it fits the character. Maybe i'm to afraid of his recovery "weakness" being exploitable, but in general i think Zard will suffer ALOT once people get the matchups down. If you give him a predictable recovery (which jumps+UpB is) it'll hurt even more.
I'm not demanding it changed back, i just hope you'll consider it in case he's hurt from it too much. time will tell.

After playing as Zard a bit more (before quitting him) and playing untold numbers of games with NY's best Zard (John12346), I chuckled when I came back here and read this. This is pretty much what happens when Zard plays against any Melee Top Tier (spacees, Sheik, and Marth). You have to take a big guess when you recover, and if you guess wrong, you die. All of these characters can cover nearly all of Zard's options bar one extremely risky one, and if that option doesn't work, Zard's sent back offstage and all of his remaining upB's are snuffed out.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

well, haven't really played enough to confirm any of it, but good to know someone got to make the experience :D

at least now i can keep hoping that he won't get nerfed any further.... I'm content to stick with charizard if he doesn't get any worse.