Has anyone found any Zard changes for 2.6?

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Changes:

- Glide takes away all jumps

- DownSmash less Hitstun (and knockback?)

(- Grounded UpB changed to mirror aerial UpB ?)

(- Utilt and Uair range buff?)

[collapse= original 1st post]So far, i've watched one charizard match on JCs stream, didn't really see anything. Can't compare to PM 2.5 right now, but:
maybe ftilt got weaker?

Fair has a little fireball in front (aesthetic change?)

UpB knockback change, or just wierd hit? (startup in air hit to the side once... i think it happens in 2.5 aswell sometimes)

UpThrow goes straight up instead of forward

didn't see any nair hits yet...

If you see anything or know something about changes (or none) please let us/me know
[/collapse]

 

[Kink-Link5]

Up-B has always had the wonky hit
Nair is still 2.5 angle; boo
U-throw is also the same, the opponent just DI'd strongly.

 

[| Kailex |]

Idk, but i think i heard somewhere that the u-throw was nerfed

 

[MaxThunder]

wat... it's not really that strong...

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

His ftilt can be tilted up now, not sure if that was already in previous versions, but I definitely noticed it.

Fair looks like it may have been buffed. Dash attack seems faster and combos into itself.

That's about all I can tell right now.

 

[| Kailex |]

Oh, didnt know about the jab, thanks

 

[Oracle]

the two big changes are that his downsmash has significantly less hitstun and knockback (but can still be used for combos, just not ridiculous ones), and his glide takes away all of his jumps

 

[wza]

is it me or is fsmash seem faster, less lag after the move?

 

[JOE!]

Nooooo @ Glide

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

is it me or is fsmash seem faster, less lag after the move?

I think it does seem faster, but if lag was reduced, it wasn't by a lot.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Glide taking away all of his jumps is a really huge mistake. Why is it that Pit can do ANYTHING out of glide, yet charizard has glair and that's it? Canceling glide now is completely pointless. Also causes ******** SD's when you glide the wrong way. Possibly might even be an accident in coding. I sure hope so.

 

[MaxThunder]

^^if you glide the wrong way then reverse the glide cancel...

His jab can be tilted now, not sure if that was already in previous versions, but I definitely noticed it.

Fair looks like it may have been buffed. Dash attack seems faster and combos into itself.

That's about all I can tell right now.

wait... jab can be tilted how?..

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Big blow... i think his recovery without the glide is pretty crappy, and that change pretty much forces you to recover with jumps, before attempting the glide

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

wait... jab can be tilted how?..

Ah, my apologies, I meant ftilt. I use it like a jab so much I think about them as if they were switched.

I'll go back and edit all my posts about that as well. But basically, you can angle ftilt up to bite any enemies in the air at a weird angle.

 

[Kink-Link5]

As much as I super duper hate no jump after glide, do consider that in 2.1 he couldn't do ANYTHING after glide ended.

I still miss both the old nair and the jumps after glide ;<

 

[| Kailex |]

And there goes all of my tricks that ive come up with

 

[Oracle]

i'm sorry you don't get to use your jumps after a ridiculous momentum cancelling glide gets to close to the stage for free >.>

 

[Burnsy]

Edit: eh, nevermind

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

i'm sorry you don't get to use your jumps after a ridiculous momentum cancelling glide gets to close to the stage for free >.>

I'm sorry but what is this supposed to mean? Are you implying that Charizards glide is broken? It's slow and he has two options out of it. Glair, which is generally extremely predictable and easily countered, or glide cancel, which takes about two seconds and requires an up b afterwards in which case you're guaranteed to get ledge hogged.

They've nerfed a mid-tier character.

While on the other hand you have Pit, who can STILL do any aerial out of glide, and can even jump cancel his glide because he's retained all of his jumps.

The Feedback I want to give to the devs is this: if you're going to nerf an option, don't nerf it for the mid-tier character and not the high-tier character. Either nerf it for everybody or don't nerf it at all. In addition, nerfing things that are not broken is also a really bad idea. I understand this change was made in the code to make it so characters who UpB lose their jumps, but if you found a way to keep it in the game for Pit, you should consider keeping it in the game for Charizard as well.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I'm willing to bet that Pit has a lot less raw killing power and combo potential than Charizard does (correct me if I'm wrong about this, please). Also, glide cancelling is not that hard to pull off. What you don't want to do is glide right in front of the opponent going obviously towards the ledge. Use the jumps before you glide, glide back to the stage from higher up, and just glide cancel/air dodge then fastfall whenever you need to get back to the stage depending on whether or not they chase you in the air or wait for you on the ground. Hitting B immediately cancels glide from which you can air dodge any time afterwards (or do something like, say, Nair if you'd rather attack).

Charizard more than easily makes up for this one weakness by being able to effectively pressure just about anywhere on or off stage for every character except maybe MK or Jigglypuff. He also got buffs in this demo which further improve said pressure. I just don't see how having a single weakness ruins Charizard so much.

 

[Oracle]

I'm sorry but what is this supposed to mean? Are you implying that Charizards glide is broken? It's slow and he has two options out of it. Glair, which is generally extremely predictable and easily countered, or glide cancel, which takes about two seconds and requires an up b afterwards in which case you're guaranteed to get ledge hogged.

They've nerfed a mid-tier character.

While on the other hand you have Pit, who can STILL do any aerial out of glide, and can even jump cancel his glide because he's retained all of his jumps.

The Feedback I want to give to the devs is this: if you're going to nerf an option, don't nerf it for the mid-tier character and not the high-tier character. Either nerf it for everybody or don't nerf it at all. In addition, nerfing things that are not broken is also a really bad idea. I understand this change was made in the code to make it so characters who UpB lose their jumps, but if you found a way to keep it in the game for Pit, you should consider keeping it in the game for Charizard as well.

Well first of all, zard is not a 'mid tier' character, since there is no tier list. Secondly, the pmbr's design scheme has more to it than 'nerf the good chars buff the bad ones'. Zard's 2.5 recover is pretty insane, and most characters can't very safely edgeguard it unless he's forced to go low, since his glide attack is so fast that you're always dangerous while gliding. Even getting hit out of his glide meant he could stand a good chance to get back easily, since he had two more jumps to use to return to the stage. On its own, this recovery is not broken, but it is uncharacteristic of a character with such good on stage play. None of pits moves from glide have the range or speed of zard's getup attack, and he has a completely different on stage game, so the comparison is moot.

 

[metroid1117]

Oracle is correct - glide has been changed in Demo 2.6 to make his recovery more interactive.

As you guys know, Charizard did not lose jumps in Demo 2.5 after initiating the glide. After he canceled it, he went into freefall (not special fall, which is the helpless state) and had access to whatever actions he could have performed before initiating the glide; this meant he could jump, attack, airdodge, fastfall, and up+B in order to get back to the ground. Because of this, the implications to his recovery were huge; it enabled Charizard to recover both high and low without engaging the opponent until putting himself in a position where he has to cancel the glide and recover with the rest of his options - namely, both jumps, attacks, an airdodge, fastfalls, and an up+B. Preventing Charizard from touching the ground when coming from above was extremely difficult given how NAir is an effective coverage tool that can be mixed with jumps, fastfalls, and an airddoge. On the other hand, edgeugarding Charizard when coming low was more doable but not easy given his two jumps and long up+B, not to mention his ability to traverse under the stage and up the other side. Although there are other characters with very good recoveries (namely, Pit and Jigglypuff), Charizard's weight and on-stage presence makes it, as Oracle put it, "uncharacteristic" for a character with those traits to be able to get close to the stage essentially for free against most characters. The aim of this change was to make Charizard's glide less effective as a recovery option and to mitigate the possibility of excessive stalling (which has not become a problem yet, but may have been in the future).

Regardless, we do realize that the changes to his glide and his DSmash (which is much less toxic than it is in Demo 2.5) are pretty significant and have done other things to slightly help Charizard's on-stage game. Until the full changelist is released, please reserve judgments on how Charizard has been affected by these changes and continue playing. Also keep in mind that this is NOT the final release - things are still suspect to change, and Charizard's options out of glide are no different.

 

[Oracle]

is it just me or did you fix the dair so it works better on platforms?

 

[metroid1117]

is it just me or did you fix the dair so it works better on platforms?

It might be just you, to my knowledge that hasn't been changed.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Also keep in mind that this is NOT the final release

Precisely why I'm providing my feedback.

 

[NightShadow6]

Zard's overall movement feels a bit slower too me.

 

[MaxThunder]

Ah, my apologies, I meant ftilt. I use it like a jab so much I think about them as if they were switched.

I'll go back and edit all my posts about that as well. But basically, you can angle ftilt up to bite any enemies in the air at a weird angle.

yeah you could always do that...

 

[metroid1117]

Zard's overall movement feels a bit slower too me.

We changed a couple of things, but movement speed is not one of them.

 

[NightShadow6]

Alright thanks, must've been just me then. Still not used to not being able to approach with a glide and bait stuff out with jumps.

 

[roymaster803]

His Nair animation was changed slightly so that at the end his tail doesn't stick so far out like in 2.5. I wanna say it's more like Brawl's animation but with PM's everything else.
U-throw goes straight up and down instead of forward and down.
Up-special had the sweet spot tweaked so it hits hard more accurately unlike 2.5. Also both the land and air version are the same now in terms of sweet spots/ sour spots/ speed of take off. Making the move all around more reliable for kills.
Fair I believe can now hit behind him slightly with the sweet spot. I did it once after jumping past a cpu in training so I'm not sure if it was a fluke or not. Either way the move is dangerous at close to point blank range.
haven't found anything else yet. I have to say he feels much better to play this patch. He got the polishing he needed and I'll definitely pick him back up again. He feels smoother and just better to play now that his Up special got the tweaks it need to actually be useful in more ways than one. All in all I say he got buffed.

 

[RKM]

It seems that uair and utilt both have better vertical reach.

 

[turtletank]

May I suggest letting Charizard retain 1 jump after glide cancel? It would give him a less predictable recovery, allowing him to play evasively when returning to stage instead of being forced to simply upb or airdodge.

 

[NightShadow6]

Ftilt is a **** tonne faster.

Use this move man, its golden.

 

[bubbaking]

People should have been using ftilt since 2.5b, man. That was a hidden gem right there.

Zard's nair is definitely different.

Metroid and Oracle, you say that Zard's recovery is now "more interactive" but what about Pit's recovery, which is exactly what Zard's recovery used to be? What about Peach's recovery, which is actually very similar but just better? What about Puff's recovery? <__< I guess being a heavy char means he SHOULD have a worse recovery, but then.....what are you guys gonna do to Samus' recovery, Samus who is (or at least SHOULD be) even heavier than Zard?

Anyway, I'm not really seeing too much of how his onstage game was improved to compensate, outside of a faster ftilt and a flamethrower that seems oddly more effective at stuffing people and not getting punished. I guess you're being painfully honest when you say "slightly".

 

[metroid1117]

Zard's nair is definitely different.

Both Monk and Toast have looked at the data in PSA and confirmed that NAir has not been changed from 2.5 to 2.6.

Metroid and Oracle, you say that Zard's recovery is now "more interactive" but what about Pit's recovery, which is exactly what Zard's recovery used to be? What about Peach's recovery, which is actually very similar but just better? What about Puff's recovery? <__< I guess being a heavy char means he SHOULD have a worse recovery, but then.....what are you guys gonna do to Samus' recovery, Samus who is (or at least SHOULD be) even heavier than Zard?

I can't comment on PIt's recovery because I'm not familiar enough with the character in terms of personal experience.

Peach's recovery is similar in some respects, but they are very different as a whole; Peach's float, while keeping her options open, restricts her to moving side-to-side and has a timer, while her up+B must always descend after the initial ascent and does not allow her to use any other attacks until she either lands or gets hit.

Jigglypuff's recovery is extremely good, but that is because of the character's traits (terrific aerial control, multiple jumps, and quick aerials) rather than any particular recovery move. I don't believe it's as valid of a comparison as Pit or Peach.

Samus is still a work in progress, so I don't know what her final recovery will be.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I don't want to drag this out into a long argumentative discussion, so I guess I'll make one last point to reply to your post (and I guess you'll reply to that and we'll be done). I agree that Jiggs is a pretty bad example. Peach's float is indeed different as a whole, but her hitboxes out of it are incredibly meaty, so it's hard to out-prioritize them, and they float-cancel, so they're essentially nonpunishable if you let her land with them. After her float, she still has her DJ, with applicable DJCs, and then the lagless upB or AD. The plethora of options she has make edgeguarding her extremely difficult. In essence, she possesses the same options that 2.5 Zard has, but she's a grossly better character; her on-stage game is arguably much better than Zard's. I think a flying fortress that's hard to kill could have been 'Charizad's thing' without messing with the game's balance, especially since nothing Zard has is close to lagless except for glide-cancelling and various other precise cancels.

As for Samus, it should be somewhat free to recover with her also and she's even tankier, so I'd like to see how you guys manage to balance that one out.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I definitely felt the change with d-smash, not that I disagree with it, but I felt it.

I guess I understand why jumps were taken away after glide, so I won't say too much more about that. One thing I will say is Zard players now have to use the other amazing recovery tool we have: The Skneeze (Side-b). And yes, the K is there on purpose because it hits hard like "The Knee", but looks like a sneeze. I love using side b to help recovery because you can jump once in the air (Reversing youself if you need to), immediately side b to shoot you towards the stage, and leave you with a glide, a jump, and an up-b to give you options for the rest of the distance.

The main problem I have about the jumps being removed from glide means I can't use a super jump, glide, glide cancel, and use my remaining jumps to try to finish off an airborne opponent who might have DI'ed really well from my up-smash (And therefore I couldn't chase with my down-b considering it's horizontal movement is limited). Basically I'm afraid that it will just take good DI to remove Charizard's options from his launchers. Again, not that this is necessarily a bad thing. I'm just theory-crafting.

I am looking forward to the change-log (Like everyone else), and I look forward to wrecking more people with my Fwaming Dwagon!

 

[Nausicaa]

That Glide-Cancel being removed as an option takes a massive dynamic out of his recovery and overall game-play.
I think trying to land the Skneeze is one of the funnest things to do with the character. Feels good in 2.6 too.

 

[Oracle]

skneeze recovery is way too good. I love that you can just hold back after sneezing and stay in place if your opponent tries to intercept

 

[NightShadow6]

Dthrow is a lot better, you can react out of it now.

It has to be as soon as they tech though,otherwise you won't be quick enough.