Hardest Characters to Play Debate

[Leviathan741]

So what are the hardest characters to play with overall tech skill considered, how hard it is to do well with them, how much intelligence is required to play that character? For example, I think IC's take a lot more tech skill to play than marth, but he takes more overall intelligence than they do. Since he requires little to no tech skill besides the basics, you have to make up for it by playing smart. Consider everything. Go

If you cant decide just make a list of 5 chars or something.

 

[Krynxe]

Imo it's about the tech, knowledge and consistency. How hard a character is to play is sort of related to how hard it is to do well with them, in the fact that you have to use a low tier character to a much much higher expertise. But that doesn't make low tier characters more technical, just more difficult to master.

Besides spacies, I think samus and yoshi are definitely high up there.

 

[>Bert<]

+1 to Yoshi and Samus.

But if I had to make a list
1). Fox/Falco
2). IC's
3). Yoshi
4). Sheik
5). Samus

And yea application of all chars edgeguards were taken into consideration in my opinion. Marth is easy mode for edgeguarding.

 

[Beat!]

This is a ****ing stupid debate subject.

 

[>Bert<]

This is a ****ing stupid debate subject.

Yea although its not... -_-

 

[=ArtH=]

Fox.

No debate needed.

 

[Krynxe]

I disagree with sheik being 4th there bert. Samus' missle techs are very difficult and techinical, and sheik really isn't that hard at all to work with. Even the edgeguards are pretty easy. I'd definitely put Samus and many other characters above Sheik, including Falcon. (Needs props for how fast he is and how hard he is to control well.)

 

[Varist]

i have seen this thread before


and it's definitely fox. the tech and of itself is so much more demanding than any thinking you'd have to do with other chars. plus you gotta think.

 

[Bill_the_Duck]

Kirby. If you can win with Kirby, you're clearly 5 times better than anyone else.

 

[Krynxe]

Kirby. If you can win with Kirby, you're clearly 5 times better than anyone else.

How hard a character is to play is sort of related to how hard it is to do well with them, in the fact that you have to use a low tier character to a much much higher expertise. But that doesn't make low tier characters more technical, just more difficult to master.

If you're not trolling, then yeah.

 

[Soloist]

Falcon is impossible. I don't understand how people do it.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Hard as in learning curve depth or hard to win with? If it was learning curve depth it'd be Fox, if it was hard to win with it'd be Kirby because he's such a ****ty character. But it's a stupid subject either way..

 

[john!]

how do you define "hardest to play"?

if something is "hard to do", that means that very few people can do it.

so the "hardest character to play" would be the character that the fewest people play.

BUT, the tier list needs to be factored in. more people will play characters that are good in tournament.

so, the hardest character to play is the character with the least people that play them, relative to their spot on the tier list.

for example, lots of people play falcon even though he's 7th best on the tier list. this indicates that falcon is an easy to understand character compared to a difficult character like jigglypuff.

much more people play falcon than jigglypuff, even though jigglypuff is a better character for tournament play. this is because jigglypuff is too difficult for most people to play.

other common characters in tournaments are fox, falco, and sheik. these are easy to play.

uncommon characters (which are still good) include marth, peach, and ice climbers. these characters are difficult to play.

say what you want about tech skill or knowledge, but the popularity of different characters speaks for itself. i could teach a monkey to waveshine.

Spoiler

"monkeyshines" LOL

there are other factors such as precise spacing that make puff and marth (for instance) more difficult than they seem at first glance.

 

[Leviathan741]

I disagree with sheik being 4th there bert. Samus' missle techs are very difficult and techinical, and sheik really isn't that hard at all to work with. Even the edgeguards are pretty easy. I'd definitely put Samus and many other characters above Sheik, including Falcon. (Needs props for how fast he is and how hard he is to control well.)

Yea, Sheik shouldnt be on anyone's list, but Bert was persuaded by a fellow sheik main that she was the 2nd hardest character to play.

 

[Leviathan741]

how do you define "hardest to play"?

if something is "hard to do", that means that very few people can do it.

so the "hardest character to play" would be the character that the fewest people play.

BUT, the tier list needs to be factored in. more people will play characters that are good in tournament.

so, the hardest character to play is the character with the least people that play them, relative to their spot on the tier list.

for example, lots of people play falcon even though he's 7th best on the tier list. this indicates that falcon is an easy to understand character compared to a difficult character like jigglypuff.

much more people play falcon than jigglypuff, even though jigglypuff is a better character for tournament play. this is because jigglypuff is too difficult for most people to play.

other common characters in tournaments are fox, falco, and sheik. these are easy to play.

uncommon characters (which are still good) include marth, peach, and ice climbers. these characters are difficult to play.

say what you want about tech skill or knowledge, but the popularity of different characters speaks for itself. i could teach a monkey to waveshine.

Spoiler

"monkeyshines" LOL

there are other factors such as precise spacing that make puff and marth (for instance) more difficult than they seem at first glance.

I am talking in terms of everything. How hard it is to do things with that character, how hard it is to win with that character, how much tech skill is invilved, how much intelligence rather than raw tech skill is required etc etc.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

We've done this topic a number of times and the consensus is always ICs, Falcon, and Marth among the top tiers and Yoshi among the lower.

Thats not to say there is a clear-cut answer to this type of question, but that those characters are the ones brought up most often.

 

[Krynxe]

We've done this topic a number of times and the consensus is always ICs, Falcon, and Marth among the top tiers and Yoshi among the lower.

Thats not to say there is a clear-cut answer to this type of question, but that those characters are the ones brought up most often.

I think I've seen spacies most often before. Definitely not marth as much.

But still, this is a repeated topic. It's really opinion based, but most can agree that's it's mostly high tiers. (considering they're usually high tier because they can do so much.)

 

[j3ly]

If it were easier to play pichu, more of them would be at the top..... invert the tier list for my answer.

 

[>Bert<]

Yea, Sheik shouldnt be on anyone's list, but Bert was persuaded by a fellow sheik main that she was the 2nd hardest character to play.

Whoa wait a minute. Sheik is 4th on my list. She's frustrating to get down correctly.

And I definitely disagree with Marth being hard. He might be one of the easiest to get good with. You don't even have to be good at tech chasing with Marth. His absurdly long grab takes up any error in missing the tech. His edgeguarding takes up way too much ledge room. His only "bad" matchup is Sheik (even that is laughable. If you don't know the matchup, Sheik can get juggled around so easily by Marth). The rest he goes 50/50

 

[Dan Salvato]

Well, I'm working on some Link tech skill that's more difficult than anything I've ever attempted to learn in Melee...

I think speaking in a general sense of play, a lot of the higher tiers like the spacies, Marth, and Sheik are "easier" to play because it's not hard to combo and/or kill the opponent. I think more tactical characters are much harder to play because they need to rely on much more of their game to do well, and landing one hit won't necessarily rack up a 60% combo. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Ganondorf, Samus, Pikachu, Link.

 

[Leviathan741]

We've done this topic a number of times and the consensus is always ICs, Falcon, and Marth among the top tiers and Yoshi among the lower.

Thats not to say there is a clear-cut answer to this type of question, but that those characters are the ones brought up most often.

I can agree with that, but I think the spacies and IC's take more than anyone.

 

[Merkuri]

I think Marth and ICs are the most difficult to get down. ICs because of learning how to desync and protect Nana. And Marth because to perfect his combos take alternating between sour and sweet spot hits, and that takes precise spacing.

 

[BigD!!!]

if spacies were harder than other characters, they wouldnt be the most popular characters

they seem harder because they have a higher technical ceiling, but all that stuff is unnecessary and the level of technical ability and concentration that is actually required is pretty low

realistically, all the characters average out to about even when you factor in personal preferences and all the different situations. falco is easier than samus when youre fighting for stage control, but samus is easier than falco once you get hit. marth is easier than fox, but only after youve already gotten the grab, before that its decidedly the opposite. jigglypuff and peach dont get gimped often, but have to work pretty hard to deal with people running away from them.

not to mention some people are just more naturally inclined toward offense, edgeguarding, and shield pressure, while others are more inclined toward spacing, positioning, and out of shield games. any combination of aspects of the game can be possible strengths of weaknesses of different players, and will cause different characters to be difficult for different people

long story short, different player preferences and situations in the game will make this question impossible to completely answer

except for the fact that yoshi is weird as hell and impossible to use

 

[Mastermooseman]

Hardest to play (decently of course): Yoshi and Samus/Mewtwo

Hardest to master:
ICs= The Crazy chain grabs and de-syncing stuff Fly Amanita and others do, doing them Consistently

Hardest to master and sort of play:
Fox= unreachable limit of tech skill along with its even more unreachable Consistency, AND the body/hand strain

Hardest to play 2nd category: Jigglypuff, withstanding the guilt

 

[Warhawk]

I'd have to say that ICs, Fox, Yoshi, Samus, and Marth are probably the hardest to play but its not like any one character isn't going to require a lot of effort to master.

 

[Krynxe]

If it were easier to play pichu, more of them would be at the top..... invert the tier list for my answer.

Lol no, you completely misinterpreted that. First of all, I pointed something out that is true and not a coincidence: high tier characters are generally more technical. Lets be honest, smash wasn't very much designed around being incredibly competitive. We've had to make it so ourselves, mainly utilizing abilities that were not likely intended to exist by the programmers. A character who has very little of their own tech skill or is "easy" doesn't mean they can't be good, it means they have less tricks up their sleeve to help them be better.

Here's a comparison, ganon and yoshi. Ganon is, arguably, not terribly difficult to play and lacks tech skills outside of the universal norms. (WDing, shuffling, etc.) He is, however, a very good character who's very strong and has good spacing. Those features were, for the most part, intended. Look at Yoshi, who's arguably one of the most difficult characters to master and has a ton of extra tech skill to get down. Yoshi himself, however, lacks the basic fundamentals to be a high tier character, like over-all reliable spacing and kill moves.

tl;dr The core of a tier list is created around how "good" the characters are naturally, and is then arranged based on what the characters are capable of doing beyond that by utilizing their potential to the fullest. Character that lack the tech skill obviously don't have much of that potential to work with, making their improvement far more difficult. :gwmelee:

Sorry if overly serious :|

 

[TheGoat]

Marth? WTF!

Fox and ICs for tech skill, low tiers like bowser and pichu for doing well in competitive play.

 

[Twinkles]

Marth is a lot harder than some people think lol
Marth requires a lot of thought because really anyone at a decent level of play can punish anything Marth throws out
And his combos require some subtle spacing to really be effective

 

[Orion*]

And I definitely disagree with Marth being hard. He might be one of the easiest to get good with. You don't even have to be good at tech chasing with Marth. His absurdly long grab takes up any error in missing the tech. His edgeguarding takes up way too much ledge room. His only "bad" matchup is Sheik (even that is laughable. If you don't know the matchup, Sheik can get juggled around so easily by Marth). The rest he goes 50/50

beating bad players is easy but like... marth can barely approach at high level without the hardest ****ing read and every time he wiffs anything he gets combod extremely hard. this makes playing him at top level difficult because of the constant mental strain, patience and spacing that you Consistently maintain. if fox makes a small error or you get that hard read you HAVE to kill him because it is unlikely in the current metagame to get 2nd chances.....

characters like fox/falco/jiggs are much easier to play even including the tech skill factor for the space animals. they take some initial work but they are overall very consistent characters that are extremely safe with high rewards for punishes...

im split at how hard falcon is. i think he's hard to be successful with at a top level also, but at mid level to a certain extent once you have the tech skill he's very silly in that he just dash camps until you make a mistake and then he autocombos you lololol.

i think ics are definitely the hardest out of viable characters imo.

 

[-Sinister-]

(not putting ic's anywhere cuz i just don't know enough about how they play)
1. Fox (above everyone considerably for obvious reasons.)
2/3/4. falco/sheik/falcon in no particular order, they seem fairly close for their own reasons

for one thing you don't have to be that technical to play falco, but he still requires some good tech skill. i know everyone sees sheik as the "noob" character, but anyone who says sheik doesn't take any skill/tech skill really doesn't know anything and haven't taken the time to play her for real. contrary to what someone else said, some of the edgeguards ARE tough to do. obviously just bairing is easy, but watch m2k do ****. i bet most of you can't even come close to doing it near as fast or even correctly. you have to be really quick to pull some of the stuff off. i put falcon here cuz while he doesn't require a lot of tech skill, (not that it doesn't take any) some combos are fairly difficult to pull off properly and you just have to be quick with your tech chases as well as figuring out patterns for quick kills.

5. peach...or something.

I don't really care about the rest. and WHY does everyone think samus is so hard to play? i play with a (former) samus main all the time and he says she isn't hard to play and doesn't require that much tech skill. so someone please tell me what's so hard. and if someone says swd....

edit: honestly this is a pointless debate because it's impossible to change people's mind about how hard a character is to play if they're completely ignorant as to how they work/play. sheik and marth i think are good examples. they seem easy on the surface, but they're really not. but people who don't take the time to actually play them for real will just go with whatever preconceived notion they had and will never change it, as if they LIKE being ignorant about the game.

 

[john!]

(not putting ic's anywhere cuz i just don't know enough about how they play)

this automatically makes you wiser than the ones who make lists with characters like IC's/puff/peach even though they barely have any experience using those characters

i wish more people would say this, lol. knowing the limitations of your knowledge is a good thing

 

[Wolfy!]

Hardest to play? I feel like IC's are pretty difficult to play. Then again, I don't play IC's nor do I use them that much, but from my short experience with playing them I feel like they are somewhat trickier than other characters.

Hardest to succeed with? Kirby.

 

[-Sinister-]

this automatically makes you wiser than the ones who make lists with characters like IC's/puff/peach even though they barely have any experience using those characters

i wish more people would say this, lol. knowing the limitations of your knowledge is a good thing

this. 10leviathans

 

[Jolteon]

Marth/Falcon.

 

[Citizen Snips]

People put way to much emphasis on technical skill. I think Fox's combination of insane technical skill and his speed make him very hard. After that, I would definitely say Falcon. He's so goddamned fast that you have to think seconds ahead of where you actually are. Of course, I could be biased because I play him. After Falcon I would say ICs, because you're controlling two characters. How the hell do they do it?

Then again, you could reverse it and say Bowser is one of the hardest because you have to be miles ahead of your opponent mentally. Who knows? Difficulty is not a quantitative value.

 

[Stray Sheep]

I don't really care about the rest. and WHY does everyone think samus is so hard to play? i play with a (former) samus main all the time and he says she isn't hard to play and doesn't require that much tech skill. so someone please tell me what's so hard. and if someone says swd....

Samus is really hard to play man. Requires a lot of patience and putting up with a lot of *** whooping. That being said, her recovery is godlike and it takes forever to kill her, so she's easy in that sense, but since you're gonna be eating a ton of hits it balances out. Also the missile tricks are super hard to do, Like Double Missile in one hop, or **** like SHFFM, which nobody does because of how hard it is.

Also, I fail to see how the best character in the game is the hardest to win with.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Also, I fail to see how the best character in the game is the hardest to win with.

A character's ranking isn't based off of how easy they are. It's based off of how well they would do if played perfectly by someone who was able to utilize every one of their known abilities. Fox is hard to play well. At a low level, sure, he's probably kind of easy, but I doubt you'll find many higher level players saying he's easy.

EDIT: Also, Falco is in no way the hardest character to play. He has so many abilities that he can fall back to that the other player has to work much harder to get around.

Cough lasers.

 

[Stray Sheep]

Not saying he's easy. Every character is hard to play. I just don't see how he is the hardest to play at all.

 

[Citizen Snips]

I'd say it's a combination of the constant technical demand and the fact that he has no bread and butter combos outside of waveshines. I feel like he's a really intuitive character that requires you to have a good understanding of the game.

Also, he's broken.

I'm sure there are good arguments for many characters, but I know Fox, Falco, and Falcon the best from experience.

 

[SamusPoop]

I whiff nair as fox or miss my L-cancel on a sheild during pressure.

I get grabbed to normally fairly simple grab combos to off stage where I get gimped. Same if I drop some combos. Fox is high reward high risk that is among the most techinal in the game. Miss a tech/anything or whiff You face an insanely high punishment compared to likes of samus or even ice climbers(unless they can kill nana like bam it isn't too terrible compared to fox).