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HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
No, an electron is smaller than a wavelength of light. In fact it is truly a point particle as far as we know, if it is even that. When in an atom, an 'electron' is really kind of like a cloud of electron probability. It is impossible to see. Atomic Force Microscopy generates an image based on the electrostatic repulsion of the electron (though it can image other things); it's a map of the force the machine feels, not what the electron 'looks like.'

I'm sure you already know what I have to say about 'angels.'
 

Vincent Vega

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
291
Location
Adelanto, Socal
I don't understand why people who don't believe in a religion feel so compelled to convince those that do to think other wise. And vice versa. Who cares what someone else believes. What makes anyone so high and mighty that they have the right to tell someone else what to be think.
 

NeighborhoodP

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
8,199
Location
SoCal
I don't understand why people who don't believe in a religion feel so compelled to convince those that do to think other wise./QUOTE]

You're naive then. There's a very simple reason why: when people feel like they have stumbled onto something great, or have a passion for something, they try to share it. It's very natural and I expect you to get over it.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
I don't understand why people who don't believe in a religion feel so compelled to convince those that do to think other wise. And vice versa. Who cares what someone else believes. What makes anyone so high and mighty that they have the right to tell someone else what to be think.
Some religions have that embedded into them, notably Christianity and Islam. They are evangelical by design.

It's not so much religion that I care about as it is the manner of thinking that leads to religion. People can believe whatever they like as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. I actually was roommates for 4 years in college with a Christian who didn't believe in evolution, so I like to think I'm fairly respectful.
 

mikeHAZE

Smash Legend
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
11,004
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North Hollywood, CA
I don't understand why people who don't believe in a religion feel so compelled to convince those that do to think other wise. And vice versa. Who cares what someone else believes. What makes anyone so high and mighty that they have the right to tell someone else what to be think.
the reason for that is because they think you're wasting your time believing in something that isn't there.


The bible is the first fiction book ever written, after all.
 

ThomaSexy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Messages
855
Location
Chino, CA
As a Christian, I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone. I think Christianity is the greatest thing ever. Whenever I witness to people, it's because I want them to experience the positive things that I'm experiencing as a result of my faith. Just read all my religious blogs on My Space. There are a TON of things that the Bible teaches about making money. Those are some of the verses I focus on the most and as a result, you can see how much money I have and I believe the reason why I have so much money is because of the Bible verses that I have followed that teach you how to make more money. So by telling everyone about this, I'm just trying to help other people to make more money too.

I do believe, however, that there are some people whose arguments are driven by anger towards what other people practice or believe simply because they disagree with them. *cough*P*cough*

I know Atheist call Christians foolish or ignorant, but the Bible says that Atheist are "prideful" and "arrogant" and it's funny how it's RIGHT ON about that even today in 2008.

Whether you think we're foolish or not, the bottom line is, Christians believe that you should forgive people, treat other people the way you want to be treated, be honest, don't steal, don't kill, and always have the attitude of love. If these things are wrong, I don't want to be right.

By the way, I'm aware of the fact that I act like as @$$hole online sometimes. Being a Christian doesn't mean I'm perfect, it means I'm forgiven. But if I acted more like a real Christian online instead of the complete opposite like I foolishly do, things would be better.

And you can't compare God to science.....because God is the one who created science.
 

ThomaSexy

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
855
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Chino, CA
I guess there's only one way to settle this then.........


CHRISTIANS VS. ATHEISTS

LIVE!!


Atheists including all Buddhists and Agnostics

Christians including all Catholics


I'm going to rent out a TV at Shuffle & Cut to host this. (Not tomorrow. Too short notice)

Bring it!!
 

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
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DRZ#283
This should be required reading in school:

www.horrormasters.com/Text/a0293.pdf

As a Christian, I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone. I think Christianity is the greatest thing ever. Whenever I witness to people, it's because I want them to experience the positive things that I'm experiencing as a result of my faith.
Yet it almost always seem that when an atheist expounds his point to Christians, it is met with indignance. Believe it or not, many atheists also want to show you the positive effect our beliefs have had on our lives. Of course, whether a belief has a positive or negative effect has nothing to do with its truth value.

I know Atheist call Christians foolish or ignorant, but the Bible says that Atheist are "prideful" and "arrogant" and it's funny how it's RIGHT ON about that even today in 2008.
That would be true (especially from a Christian's perspective) of most people who is passionate about their beliefs, so it's not a very remarkable prediction. It's a self-fulfilling one almost. I also add that being prideful or arrogant has no effect on the validity of that person's beliefs, though it may not be a good trait to have

Whether you think we're foolish or not, the bottom line is, Christians believe that you should forgive people, treat other people the way you want to be treated, be honest, don't steal, don't kill, and always have the attitude of love. If these things are wrong, I don't want to be right.
If Christianity is wrong it doesn't necessarily imply that those morals are wrong. People don't ultimately get their morals from the Bible anyway. I mean to say, they do take moral lessons from the Bible, but they pick and choose which ones to follow, which means that really our morals come from inside us in the first place, so religion is not necessary to be a 'moral' person.

And you can't compare God to science.....because God is the one who created science.
Even if the second phrase was true, which it isn't, it doesn't imply the first in any way. In the end this statement is meaningless to anyone who questions God's existence since it assumes he exists in the first place.
 

NeighborhoodP

Smash Hero
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god thomas is showing how illogical and warped the mind of so many religious people happens to be.

lol @ my words out of anger, the funny part is i'm not even an atheist. if anything i'm closest to buddhism, and if a gun was to my head i'd say there's some sort of god-like being, but the reality is i don't know, and "i don't know" is going to be the first thing out of my mouth because I DON'T KNOW AND CAN'T KNOW.

Unlike some people I'm suffice with that conclusion. If anything you could argue it's arrogant and illogical not to.
 

ThomaSexy

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Messages
855
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Chino, CA
Okay Hyuga. I understand where you're coming from now.

Let me point out something so you can see where I'm coming from too.


I believe there is Heaven and Hell, so I believe that for a Christian, life on Earth is our Hell and for an Atheist, life on Earth is their Heaven. As far as I can tell, this is the way the two opposites view life:

An Atheist, or anyone seperated from God, will focus solely on their accomplishments on Earth. You see the rappers on mtv sporting their bling bling and pimps enjoying multiple sex partners. These people look at us Christians and think we're wasting our lives not enjoying these things, so they think we're ignorant and missing out. They believe, "You only live once."

A Christian, however, believes that there's a bigger picture and Earth is just training grounds until we get into Heaven. So we don't focus solely on our accomplishments here, but we focus more on preparing for the next step. So when a Christian sees an Atheist sporting their bling bling and pimpin the hoes, we think they're the ones who are ignorant because they think they've got it all but when we die, they won't have anything and we will have it all.

So it's just a matter of what works best for you. Personally, I look at the world as foul and corrupt. People kill and steal, gangsters are glorified, girls are getting knocked up by losers, kids are carrying guns, politicians are corrupt, people are suffering, and the bad guys always win. As a Christian, I believe that this is not our "real" life and that there is something better waiting for me after this; a place where there is no pain and no corruption and no evil. Believing that a place like that exists is what gives me peace of mind. So when I see all the killing and **** and corruption, it doesn't bring me down because I know something better is waiting for us who have faith, and that the evil in the world is only temporary.

I understand your point when you say you're trying to make our lives better by sharing what you know. We're trying to do the same for you but sometimes we get out of control and lose focus and accidentally turn this into attacks on people who see things differently.

As long as we understand each other's point of view, I'm happy with the results of this debate.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
An Atheist, or anyone seperated from God, will focus solely on their accomplishments on Earth.
I suppose you can put it that way, but I'd rather say that we just want to be as happy as possible during our lifetime. In fact the same can be said of Christians or other deists as well, just that some of their happiness comes from what they believe will happen to them in the afterlife.

You see the rappers on mtv sporting their bling bling and pimps enjoying multiple sex partners. These people look at us Christians and think we're wasting our lives not enjoying these things, so they think we're ignorant and missing out. They believe, "You only live once."
I'd say that's a fairly rare behavior for ANYONE let alone atheists. I honestly have no idea what the religious beliefs of rappers like that are. It's hard for me to imagine someone like that takes the time to think about such things. More likely than not they were raised in a Christian household though. But you seem to say that by their deeds they aren't Christian, which begs the question of what a "true Christian" IS. Which of course, is either a matter of opinion (and we wouldn't want to force our opinions on others), or you submit to an authority like the Pope.

A Christian, however, believes that there's a bigger picture and Earth is just training grounds until we get into Heaven. So we don't focus solely on our accomplishments here, but we focus more on preparing for the next step. So when a Christian sees an Atheist sporting their bling bling and pimpin the hoes, we think they're the ones who are ignorant because they think they've got it all but when we die, they won't have anything and we will have it all.
Well, it turns out that the percentage of the Christian population that is in prison is decidedly greater than the percentage of atheists in prison. That is to say, according to the United States justice system, atheists are in general leading more moral lives than anyone. But that again can bring up the "true Christian" problem. Which parallels this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman

To be honest, having read the New Testament multiple times, I'm not convinced that Christians necessarily have to believe in Hell, or at least, Hell is not the traditional 'fire and brimstone' place but more of an abstraction.

So it's just a matter of what works best for you. Personally, I look at the world as foul and corrupt. People kill and steal, gangsters are glorified, girls are getting knocked up by losers, kids are carrying guns, politicians are corrupt, people are suffering, and the bad guys always win. As a Christian, I believe that this is not our "real" life and that there is something better waiting for me after this; a place where there is no pain and no corruption and no evil. Believing that a place like that exists is what gives me peace of mind. So when I see all the killing and **** and corruption, it doesn't bring me down because I know something better is waiting for us who have faith, and that the evil in the world is only temporary.
Well, most atheists don't believe in absolute good or evil. All those things which you have called evil, the deeds are being carried out by people who probably think they are in fact doing the right thing. People don't go around wondering how evil they can be today like cartoon villains.

For me, "good" is whatever makes me happy, and "bad" is whatever gets in the way of me being happy. And I would actually argue that that goes implicitly for everyone, that their brain is wired to pick out a course of action according to that definition. Of course, people are prone to a bad judgment, and a lot of people don't even know what makes them happy, so that's why a lot of people aren't happy, and that's why a lot of people are corrupt. "Evil" is a matter of opinion, and "corruption" is a matter of irrational selfishness or just plain stupidity.

In fact I'd say far, far more harm was ever done in this world simply out of ignorance than out of mailce.

Lastly I'd like to add again, that whatever comfort one's beliefs give somebody, has absolutely nothing to do with their truth value.
 

KingJiggyWiggy

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I will never tell. :D
king jiggy wiggy who are you?
DDDD=

WHY?!?!?!?!

Hyuuga: The reason why Christianity is good is because it helps others control their temper and gradually lose hatred. Christianity can't be forced on anyone kid. Thats impossible. All a Christian can do is tell others what they have learned, and whether you like it or not, it changes lives. Christ has the power to turn lives inside out. Its rather ironic that you claim religion is ignorant and yet you don't know squat about Christ.

Thomas: Your plan is flawed. 95% of the Smash community is Atheist, where will you find 10 Christian Smashers?
 

ThomaSexy

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Messages
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Chino, CA
Well Hyuga, I understand your point clearly. I'm glad this didn't turn into childish name-calling.

I've dedicated the last 2 years of my life to sex and alcohol and I feel like I'm a lot worse off now than before when I was a more dedicated Christian. I think the last 2 years were the worst in my life so this year I'm recommiting to God as my New Years resolution. My life was just soooooo much better back then.

You know how you made that comment about "cartoon villians"? Well, I've been hanging with the wrong crowd in the past couple of years and I do know a lot of cholo, gangster, thug types, who foam at the mouth at the hope of using a gun on another person, and who steal cars and brag about it. I know a girl whose car got stolen. Ironically enough, her boyfriend steals cars for a living too (serves her right) and when her car got stolen, her boyfriend stole her another car and stole rims and other accessories and she was BRAGGING and giggling about it. To me, those are the truly evil people. Unfortunately, I know a lot of people like that....... but then again, that's because I've been seperated from God and have been making bad choices; choices to hang out with these types of people. So Christianity works for me. It kept me away from these types of people.
 

6th Sense

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A place called Cucamonga or something..
DDDD=

WHY?!?!?!?!

Hyuuga: The reason why Christianity is good is because it helps others control their temper and gradually lose hatred. Christianity can't be forced on anyone kid. Thats impossible. All a Christian can do is tell others what they have learned, and whether you like it or not, it changes lives. Christ has the power to turn lives inside out. Its rather ironic that you claim religion is ignorant and yet you don't know squat about Christ.

Thomas: Your plan is flawed. 95% of the Smash community is Atheist, where will you find 10 Christian Smashers?
HERE'S ONE!

Good for you Thomas:)
 

Kamina

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
19
DDDD=

WHY?!?!?!?!

Hyuuga: The reason why Christianity is good is because it helps others control their temper and gradually lose hatred. Christianity can't be forced on anyone kid. Thats impossible. All a Christian can do is tell others what they have learned, and whether you like it or not, it changes lives. Christ has the power to turn lives inside out. Its rather ironic that you claim religion is ignorant and yet you don't know squat about Christ.

Thomas: Your plan is flawed. 95% of the Smash community is Atheist, where will you find 10 Christian Smashers?
sorry to butt in but i think there are many instances in the past were Christians forced their religion onto others.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
Hyuuga: The reason why Christianity is good is because it helps others control their temper and gradually lose hatred. Christianity can't be forced on anyone kid. Thats impossible. All a Christian can do is tell others what they have learned, and whether you like it or not, it changes lives. Christ has the power to turn lives inside out. Its rather ironic that you claim religion is ignorant and yet you don't know squat about Christ.
OK, even if it does help people in the ways that you mentioned, there are a ton of other religions that could claim the exact same thing, and even totally secular things like martial arts, which also teaches you discipline and gets you in shape. So why Christianity? Why not Judaism or Buddhism or the Great Juju of the Mountain?

And yet again, even if it DOES help people with their lives, that has nothing to do with the truth value of its theology! Hell even if it's the greatest discipline and moral teacher there is (which it's obviously not, in light of the prison statistics I've mentioned, for which you can see: http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm and many other sites), that doesn't make it true! If someone needs religion to follow a moral path, fine.

If "Christianity can never be forced on anyone" then you have to explain the Crusades, the Inquisition, the attack on intellectualism and science in American education systems by Christians, etc. If all a Christian can do is those things you said, does that make the people who committed those acts "not TRUE Christians?" Christianity has the power to change lives. OK great, but that doesn't distiguish it from anything else, see first paragraph.

And where do you get off saying I don't know anything about Christ? You're just attacking my credibility and not backing it up with anything. Not to mention that my opinions I've expressed about religion here certainly extend to faiths beyond Christianity, so really whether or not I know anything about Christ (which I do indeed know a great deal) means nothing since my arguments apply to anything requiring "faith" as it's defined, and so a mythological figure of one arbitrary faith is completely irrelevant to my points about God and religion in general. Though if you want to have a debate about Christianity itself and cast the God question aside, fine by me.

Thomas:

I understand where you're coming from, though I personally can't relate. If Christianity works for you, that's fine. I think it's great that you want to get out of that kind of scene; I'll take a peaceful Christian over an irrationally selfish atheist (if you can even call those people that) any day. If you witness to people and tell them how great Christianity has been to you, then at least be open and allow yourself to hear people tell you about other paths to happiness. Personally I feel the need to live in a world that is as true and as real as possible, and that has led me to my conclusions about religion. Ultimately I think people will do what they believe makes them happiest anyway; people should just be aware of all the arguments concerning all paths of life and be able to consider them rationally. I'm sure that's your mindset when you tell people about Christianity, as it is mine when I give my point of view.
 

KingJiggyWiggy

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I will never tell. :D
Yeah I can see where your comin' from. Your statement on "TRUE Christian?" seems quite probable. I heard that in the "end" of the world everyone is gonna rise from the dead and final judgment will be imposed. Only a couple hundred thousand will actually make it to heaven (hence the "TRUE Christian" statement) and the rest will live again in a new world.

Ok ok enough of that God crap. Crew battle anyone?
 

WassupJB

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
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NorCal
everyone who believes in christianity should immediately watch this:

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/


^there is a movie on that page, in the google player... its 1 hr and 56 mins.

IF you DONT believe, excellent, watch it anyways.

please spread that movie to everyone you know, these are legit people TRYING to inform people of the TRUTH. That is all I'm going to say, I don't have the energy nor time to waste arguing on a THREAD right now,

hyuga, big props, you know what you talking about and you're respectful at it, good showmanship for us Atheist.



^That was my boy everybody. Not WWJasonD. But I agree.
 

Vincent Vega

Smash Journeyman
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Adelanto, Socal
It would be a shame if that video was labeled as an anti-religion thing. The first part didn't really do it for me. But the 2nd and 3rd are something everyone (literately) should watch. Ron Paul ftw. ^_^
 

WassupJB

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i hope everyone watches it. and the first part i thought was pretty crucial and shows a HUGE revelation about christianity and how it is used to CONTROL people. to keep them docile and scared. to not worry about their situation on earth because when they die, they'll all be in a better place.. i found it pretty powerful.. all 3 parts go together really well.. glad the few of you that watched it enjoyed it.. hope to hear about yall's reactions...especially the hardcore christians and hyuga's.. and P's
 

Inkslinger

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Jul 17, 2004
Messages
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Los Angeles (310)
edit: interesting stuff, very interesting. Philosophy teacher put into account a lot of the stuff in the first half and elaborated on it, thought it was very complex.
 

Taco Head

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
650
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Long Beach, CA
so you guys believe the world trade center was a controlled demolition and was cover-up by the bush administration and bankers are trying to take over the world???

wow.
 

Taco Head

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Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
650
Location
Long Beach, CA
I know of people who used to think like you, their names are Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel. Their lives were hell bent on disproving religion. They tried hard, and when they were done they were Christians.

Gl on proving your mindless flame.
Appeal to ignorance.
Just because they failed to crack an astronomy/biology book
doesn't prove religion


Lastly I'd like to add again, that whatever comfort one's beliefs give somebody, has absolutely nothing to do with their truth value.
True
people want to believe that everything is in control, and theres a higher power out there and that their love ones get to live forever but thats just false no matter how satisfying and reassuring

edit: interesting stuff, very interesting. Philosophy teacher put into account a lot of the stuff in the first half and elaborated on it, thought it was very complex.
Before you edited your post you said that astrology wasn't a pseudoscience
your wrong and heres why http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/astrology.html
also see horoscope
and zodiac




Zeitgeist the Movie = bull****
Part I: The Greatest Story Ever Told
I don't care about religion.

Part II: All The World's a Stage
debunking of various 9/11 conspiracy theories

Part III: Don't Mind The Men Behind The Curtain
Debunking Federal Reserve Conspiracy theories
Income Tax myths

the MOST annoying part of that film was the ending
they use a Carl Sagan quote to end it:mad::mad::mad:

Also I'll like to add
Atheism is not a belief system, it is a lack of belief in deities That's it.
Morality existed before Christianity
Theism isn't even the primary source of morality, morality has existed since the dawn of altruism in basic organisms, it is innate you are born with it. your parents teach it to you during childhood and you acquire it until you die. Morality is not an invention of mankind unlike religion, and isn't even exclusive to our species.




:teeth:
 

Inkslinger

Smash Ace
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Messages
591
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I edited the post because it wasn't written correctly and didn't really need to bring that up. Basically I wanted to mention that astrology is usually dismissed a pseudo-science but It may have some validity. Not having read that much as i should about it, it will be wrong to try to argue for it's validity, but will spend time reading stuff regarding the topic.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
I pretty much agree with Taco Head's assessment. Conspiracy theory movies like this and Loose Change are just a bunch of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence, and errors of omission, thrown together with clever editing. Zeitgeist at least give you a "sources" section, but it's just a jumble of books without any page numbers or anything! So basically the movie is set up so that if we want to analyze its points critically, we have to read the entire bibliography and further critically analyze those books in turn. It's simply the first rule of conspiracy theories, i.e. make them as difficult to disprove as possible, which plays upon the human tendency to be suckered by fallacies of distraction and arguments from ignorance.

I suggest watching the Penn and Teller BS episode about conspiracy theories. BS in general is just a good thing to watch about anything.

The lesson that everyone is supposed to learn is not to take anybody's word for something as truth.

Except the morality before Christianity was horribly laughable. Now just stfu and stop talkin' about this crap you TOOL.
You don't know that, and to assume that it was necessarily because of Christianity is a 'post hoc' fallacy. For one thing, Buddhism existed centuries before Christianity and has an altogether more moral history than almost all major religions, including Christianity. Not to mention it also depends on what you call 'morality.'
 

choknater

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choknater
Even though I am a pretty devout Catholic myself, I think Taco Head and Sheridan are really cool and smart guys.

That is just how cool they are.
 

WassupJB

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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NorCal
Those are very good points taco head and i am very aware of how the 9/11 conspiracy has been DISPROVEN, and i am also very aware of how conspiracy movies and the such can be a "bunch of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence" like hyuga said. the strength in this movie i believe is the religious portion. and partly the bank portion.

"Part I: The Greatest Story Ever Told
I don't care about religion."

^ just because you dont "care" about religion does not question it's validity.


As for the rest of the movie many of the "facts" used, are valid and can be found as evidence. For example, the AMERO dollar, unification of the North Americas, and the real ID cards, and micro chips are ALL real.

The thing about this movie is they strung many pieces of evidence, some anecdotal, some not, and strung them together in a way they felt made sense and what they felt it all led to. However, that still does not dismiss the movie as a whole nor the probability of much of it. As for the "evidence" Taco Head gave, reading it is still taking it for its word because in essence we do not KNOW for a FACT that that is the truth. The SAME applies to the zeitgeist movie. and i can only AGREE with hyuga when he says, "The lesson that everyone is supposed to learn is not to take anybody's word for something as truth."

I posted that video because i find it to be an eye opener, a way to think a little different, which is something many christians, religious fanatics, followers, and people in general need to learn how to do. instead of believing information that is being spoon fed to them since childhood - when you know DAM* WELL if you were born if afghanistan you would NOT be of the christian faith.

once again, this is not WWJasonD, it is his friend who has a smashboards account but is too lazy to sign in on it. I as well smash but about once a month. lol

EDIT:

"...morality has existed since the dawn of altruism in basic organisms, it is innate you are born with it. your parents teach it to you during childhood and you acquire it until you die. Morality is not an invention of mankind unlike religion, and isn't even exclusive to our species."

^that is also VERY debatable taco head, philosophers have been having that argument for years. and there are VERY strong arguments against morality being innate, and you being a very smart person, i dont see why you said it with such certainty. and right after you said it is innate you say that your parents teach it to you but then you go to say it isnt a mankind invention. and about it being exclusive to our species or not, we do not know that, or at least i dont as i have never been anything other than a human before, and given the fact that i don't believe in an after life and reincarnation i dont believe i ever will. (i know thi sis a bit off topic but i thought it'd be worth mentioning to you taco head, you seem like a smart person so discussions like this are fun among the thoughtful).
 
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