Grab Option Select for ZSS

[B.A.M.]

Just had a quick question for you ZSS. First Q is how bad is your b roll? I know its definitely not as good as you f roll but i was just curious, because that could potentially make a safer option select for ZSS. The second Q is, have any of the ZSS tried shield grabbing with Shield + cstick forward? I play ZSS a bit as she is a fun character and my training partner happens to be a ZSS main. The reason why i was asking is because to me, Shield + c-stick forward should be awesome for ZSS. Itll only grab if you are in shield stun otherwise ull just f roll behind your opponent, which from my perspective has always been a great place to be vs characters due to ZSS jab ( which now has no fear of being shield grabbed ) dtilt, etc.

Fthrow seems to be a good throw as well as dthrow, but usually have to be used with utmost caution. It works well vs spaced tilts and is kind of a nice little way to get in. Its cool because if they throw out the tilt/ aerial late then you are behind them and you get to punish, if they are shielding cuz theyre scared you are behind them with a frame 2 jab (im considering the input frame) dtilt and more. If they spot dodge then you get to punish with her quick frame jab and tilts. You could do it with cstick back but that would back roll and that doesnt seem too good of an idea for ZSS.

I was using in a couple MUs and it seemed to be pretty effective vs some zoning. I just thought its kinda cool, and wanted to know how the rest of the ZSS community felt about it.

 

[Zero]

Problem with jab as an option is that you frame trap yourself against 99% of the cast and 100% of awake players if you ever use it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Jab1 actually has a 1frame advantage on hit.

 

[B.A.M.]

Zero, you have to look at the circumstances. I was stating that you are behind them which nullifies the number 1 option used to own ZSS jab; shield grab. Jab cancels on the back of someones shield is good as far as what ive seen. It will stuff virtually everything aside from frame 1 invincibility moves like Lucas Usmash, Marth's
up b, and Boswer's Fortress. For the majority of the cast, theres not much you can do vs jab cancels on the back of your shield. They usually have to roll or something which can be read and punished.The cool thing is that the best range to use this option select in is good for both options.The moves a grab would be potent on would be those long range tilts which usually tend to be single hit moves. That would usually coincide with the proper spacing to roll right behind someone where jab cancel and tilts can be very strong.

 

[Dakpo]

ima look into this

 

[B.A.M.]

check it out Dakpo! it should work reasonably well vs Marth, DK, D3, or any usage of single hit tilt/ aerial zoning. Or even people who tend to use DA to get past ZSS's usual spacing tools. Its just a good way to approach when you have a fear of being zoned out. The option select covers a ton of solid defensive options often used while one approaches. Remember to let go of the control stick before you press cstick foward otherwise it wont be an option select and you will grab every time.

 

[Nefarious B]

This is actually really smart, gonna try it out. BTW just a heads up, when you jab someone from behind it turns them around, so if they powershield your jab3 they will always be facing you to shieldgrab

A slightly related question, I've heard (from tkd) that MK's fair keeps you in shield stun in between hits, so that if you press grab while getting hit you don't start your grab until he's finished the attack, can anyone confirm this? MK's SH fair is shield grabbable so it could be really useful for getting guaranteed grabs off

 

[B.A.M.]

well my general rule is go for jab cancel mixups first, then full jab if they start trying to punish u. the thing thats good about the option select is the fact you will only roll your opponent is doing these options; spotdodge, shield, roll, stand, late response. Spotdodge shield, late response (like they wanted to tilt u or grab or something), and sometimes roll (since your roll is better than most) give you ways to punish. the only option that really could mess u up is if they just stand there, which is a huge gamble on their part unless they actually knew what you were doing.

when I roll im already looking at their response if they are shielding then im jabbing their shield as theres not much that can be done.

 

[fkacyan]

Jab1 actually has a 1frame advantage on hit.

Jab has a one-frame advantage on hit, but the only thing that's fast enough to follow up Jab1 is Jab2 or another Jab1... Or just moving away.

wtb good hitconfirm

EDIT: Jab1>Jab2>Jab3 is a guaranteed hitconfirm on a few characters on the ground and virtually all characters in the air, actually.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

That's why our boxing game is basicly

Jab
mixup rolls/spotdodge/dtilt/dsmash/jab

 

[B.A.M.]

which is quite solid against the back of a shield

 

[fkacyan]

which is quite solid against the back of a shield

Jab isn't safe on shield.

 

[Dakpo]

so with a little theory craft here....couldnt we jab 1 over and over and over again without being punished?

 

[fkacyan]

so with a little theory craft here....couldnt we jab 1 over and over and over again without being punished?

I'll take SDI for 100, Alex.

 

[-Jumpman-]

so with a little theory craft here....couldnt we jab 1 over and over and over again without being punished?

Pressing A 60 times a second.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

so with a little theory craft here....couldnt we jab 1 over and over and over again without being punished?

Even without the concern of SDI... how would one go about canceling that jab appropriately to maintain advantage?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yeah good luck actually getting the full 1 frame out of that.

Just jab and if you're like a ****ing god at hitconfirming you can utilt, otherwise stay with our boxing mixups.

 

[Dakpo]

So as i said....THEORY CRAFT WISE we could indeed jab 1 forever? Guess not just a dream

 

[z00ted]

i smell a TAS video

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

SDI.. Too bad.

 

[fkacyan]

So as i said....THEORY CRAFT WISE we could indeed jab 1 forever? Guess not just a dream

SDI in this game is far too powerful to allow for it. Just the other night both me and Orion would sometimes coincidentally SDI a 1-frame jab doing something else when it landed out of range of a second. Doing it multiple times would make it pretty easy.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

So as i said....THEORY CRAFT WISE we could indeed jab 1 forever? Guess not just a dream

Even in theory, I'm still caught up on canceling it fast enough. Because you can't just jab again, that'll go to jab 2. If you were to crouch, the control stick would take more than a frame to get down and more than a frame to snap back up (if you flicked it).

In response to "LOL SDI", I seconded Peach for a while and jab --> grab always got that criticism. But in Praxis' experience, only Fiction was really able to get out of that 100%. So in theory, SDI will win at everything, but that's not the same as in practice.

Then again, even if using our Jab 1 twice would work most of the time in practice, I'm not sure if we have a way of making it happen as fast as the game will allow.

 

[Nefarious B]

I was never able to get it to not flow trying to jab cancel it that quickly. I can do jab cancels with Falco but with ZSS it's either much harder or there's some mechanic preventing it

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Her Jab1 is just hardly out at all that's the problem ._.

 

[Deathfox30]

B.A.M., I know her jab would technically take 2 frames to come out if we did it while just standing, but normally we'll be buffering it out of D smash, forward roll and dash attack so it comes out frame 1. It just seems like frame 2 is going to confuse people.

Our back roll is terrible.

@nef I tried shield grabbing Mk after the first hit of his Fair and we start our grab animation and then get hit by the second hit so I don't think that's true.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Fair has 4 hits right? What if you buffer the grab after the 2nd hit?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Fair has 4 hits right? What if you buffer the grab after the 2nd hit?

MK's fair? It has three. With ZSS's grab speed the way it is, there isn't really a good way to grab that unless you're completely out of the range of his sword when you start. So basically, get an epic read?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

If MK jumps at you and you know he has the intent of fairing (which they shouldn't, they should just jumpdair) you can run away pivot grab. Works against other chars too like Wario.

 

[Nefarious B]

if Mk hits our shield with a rising dair we can always uair, if he does a SH fair we can grab it after the three hits. I don't know about if he land cancels the fair though, which is why if we could buffer a grab and have it go off as soon as his fair ends, it'd be a good option cover

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

A landing fair is -9

 

[Deathfox30]

Fair has 4 hits right? What if you buffer the grab after the 2nd hit?

We get hit by the third hit.

Land cancel Fair is pretty safe against us. All we can really do is jab if they spaced badly.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Realistically we can also utilt.

Perfect cancelling for -9 happens, obviously, but it's not extremely human to do a thing like that 100%

 

[Dakpo]

Actually we can punish it with Upsmash out of Shield!!! I have been using a little olimar lately thanks to Denti and it made me realize how useful it actually is. I played a good MK player recently at a Tourney and won the set because of my punish game. UpSmash out of shield can punish soooooo much and needs to be used more. That in the combination of Upair OoS and UpB out of Shield will make Zero Suits Out of shield Options ridiculous. Yes i said Up B out of Shield...deal with it >__>

 

[Nefarious B]

Usmash is good (although I don't use it enough) but I think up b's first hitbox is a little too meh horizontally to make it really worth while

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I've just experimented with usmash oos and holy **** it's pretty good.

upB I can't really see what you wanna punish with that =/
Tell me Dakpo

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I've just experimented with usmash oos and holy **** it's pretty good.

upB I can't really see what you wanna punish with that =/
Tell me Dakpo

I think it would just be a matter of spacing. It would depend on what they are using on you and what you think you can punish with. Usmash has good side to side range, but up B has a chance to be a real surprise and lead to dsmashes on anyone who doesn't react fast enough (though on a high level, it'd have to be one hell of a surprise, heh).

I'll keep the Usmash thing in mind though!

 

[Deathfox30]

Up B could help to punish some cross ups maybe. It hits behind us.

 

[Nefarious B]

interesting, maybe wario's dair crossup behind us?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Crossups still get spaced. Best thing you'd punish is a dash attack which I'd rather utilt/dtilt

 

[Dakpo]

Up B could help to punish some cross ups maybe. It hits behind us.

And what nefarious said about punishing mix ups. Its super hard to learn when to use it. But like up air out of shield, you get used to it. Practice
EDIT: use Up B extremely sparingly