Kinzer
Mammy
That time of the year again.
So with a fantastic year for Sonic, what do people think looking back this year, the years previous, and how much further Sonic can go, where can he go, just how/why he'll go about it?
From my perspective, we got a lot done in terms of getting Sonic publicity. Many seem to have the belief that Sonic is a legitimate threat in tournaments and a skilled Sonic player is nothing to scoff at.
At the same time however, it seems like we still have a lot to get done.
The most obvious is that all of us have a lot of improving left to do. I find it amazing that Sonic has gotten this far on players that still have holes in their gameplay; which suggests that as time goes on and the veterans grow stronger and with the more fresh blood (with talent) show up; the more Sonic can ascend. It's unclear to me whether or not Sonic himself still has room to improve, but as long as players still have room for it, we'll probably be good for a little while longer.
Is there any hub besides the social thread were we can all come to one place and share ideas so that we can improve in places we are faltering, and help those that are struggling to get to where they want to be? Does anything more need to be done besides leave the social thread open for that kind of thing anyway? I'm open for any ideas.
Speaking of newcomers, I'd like to make it easier for them to break themselves into Sonic. I've already stressed that a lot of us who have been around for a while are still working on our game, so how does one expect somebody that's coming in right now to reach a high-caliber point in a reasonable time?
Certainly there are many ways to go about that. I believe one way to go about it is to update the guides, or gather more data on things that are right now undocumented or have no dedicated section anywhere on the Sonic Forum. It's one thing for us; the players, to know, but it's another for anybody who wants to know to look around and find that information as opposed to just stopping by the social thread and asking.
Organization? Sure, we could always use more polishing, but how could we go about it? There's already a community guide in the works, and data is being formatted as it comes in (slowly... hopefully surely though?). I think before organization can be done though the data needs to be gathered/put down, otherwise there's nothing to organize, right?
I believe that's it for that, but now I want to go over what ways we can go about furthering Sonic's metagame.
Let me use extreme cases/outliers to prove my case.
At the very start, a lot of people were conceived with believing that Sonic was one of the worst characters this game had to offer. How did it get from that to where we stand right now? It's not simply a matter of astronomically great players making (for all we know) the worst character to be average, is it?Maybe it is, TBH it feels as if it has some influence as to how much work one has to get to do this as opposed to working with another set of tools (another character) and doing better than they originally did, but maybe I can cover this elsewhere/somebody can help me think through this.
I think it has something to do with people dropping their old mindsets and adopting new ones. However, some things seem to go unchanged...
I only started in December of '08, so could somebody tell me what's changed with things like the Lucario matchup? If I didn't know better, it seems to only have gotten worse, and there doesn't seem to be any clearcut way of changing it.
Now I'm not saying it's unwinnable. I don't think it is either, but until it becomes obvious, I'd like to keep it from being just that. Being better than our opponents is too obvious of an answer, I'm looking for things like "is it possible Sonic can true combo Lucario into FSmash from a Down Tilt?" and some more hypothetical that could possibly lead into realities. This is how you go about making the matchup better in general, so that we can go more toe-to-toe with our opponents, and anybody can jump in and do the same (regardless of how much work has to be put in prior. If it becomes a "pick-up and go" kind of thing, all the better).
It would all be in vain if all this work people have put in so far got into waste and all of a sudden Sonic finds himself with a true auto-lose matchup, much like Donkey Bong Vs. King Dedede or Ganondorf versus... anybody with frame data to equate to more speed I suppose. Hopefully I am making enough sense.
While that's the biggest priority, it's certainly not to go uncredited if one finds way to go about improving our already good/neutral matchup. Imagine if somebody suddenly found an infinite on Meta Knight with Sonic, just what that'd do? An extreme and unlikely case, but my point still stands that it's probably just as important as making the bad matchups not so bad.
[collapse="regarding good matchups"]This may be a case to case thing, but I believe Espy for example believes that Sonic has a very good advantage on (Powersuit) Samus. It wasn't always like that AFAIK and it was more evenish, if not in her advantage (I don't remember if it was ever like that though...) I'm not sure if I have any right to say it but I agree with him on that notion and I can see where he's coming from.
Samus struggles to kill just as much, if not moreso than Sonic, despite having range over us. Both are capable of living to a reasonably high percent, and they seem to share a lot of similarities. The difference(s) lie in the regard that Sonic is able to abuse Samus' weaknesses more often and much harder than Samus can do with Sonic; and Sonic seems to nullify Samus' strengths. Sonic cannot easily be gimped or harassed offstage, which seems to be a boon in most cases for Samus. Her camping game, while still somewhat lacking, is kind of all she has in some cases. Sonic is simply too fast and mobile to be deterred by an already flawed strategy.[/collapse]
I think I'll leave it at that, just about everything else I could possibly say or think of can be debated and that's not the point of this thread.
That's probably all that can be done that can be backed up with solid credentials. I'll go over more sentimental stuff now.
It's one thing to talk over the internet, but how about meeting the pros and the new guys?
[collapse="friendships forming?"]I would be lying if I said I did not find motivation from my partner (in crime ^_-) and now my best friend, Jerry/"Tails." Before I met him, I had suffered a great defeat at a tourney from two Lucarios (surprise, surprise...). At that point, I had either lost the will to improve, or I saw no point in going on if I could not progress.
Shortly afterwards, I meet this one particular person who just happens to play Sonic. I thought to myself "eh, that's neat." I didn't think of it much, I had thought that it was just a one time case and I'd never see the guy again. My past has led me to believe that people come and go and forming a bond is all but pointless. Nevermind that though, I actually saw the guy around a couple of tournaments, and he even regarded me in a positive manner. I was surprised to find out that somebody like me had drawn a reputation, but regardless, it would be rude of me to turn him down. (I won't cover about how I had drawn that reputation in the first place. Let's just being yourself can get you far.)
I also gathered a bit more hope in this new guy. "If he were just a bit more polished, he'd probably do better, if not even surpassing me..." and so, with nothing but a hunch, I took a chance. I started talking more and more with this guy, and he was willing to listen. Either out of courtesy, or if it was because he had the same determination and the same will I did when I first started to become a better (Sonic) player. In due time, and with a little bit of help, he did improve, and even surpassed my original expectations.
At that same time, my hope in myself had renewed itself. " I can't let the student surpass the teacher!" I said. I didn't think it'd make sense then, or now, for the student to have to look up to a teacher who is worse than he is, so I set out to do better in general. It wouldn't make any sense for somebody with no hope in themselves to help another person, so I had to try, for him and for myself, or I wouldn't (have) feel(/felt) right.[/collapse]
The rest is history. If I had never formed that bond with Jerry, I cannot say with any certainty that I would be where I am now. Granted, I am not completely satisfied with how I keep messing up my inputs, but I am going to make an effort to start attending more tournaments and setting out to set an example for everybody else to follow, and pass on ahead.
At the same time too, it is because of everybody else around here that I've made it this far too.
[collapse="tribute"]I remember attending one of the top-deck tournaments here that I just did awful again. I wanted to give up again, but Kupo told me to keep trying. I'm glad I did, because I didn't see it then that I still had some things I could work on. I thought I was at my end, but I'm still nowhere near it it seems.
Tenki was the go-to guy for mental advice. He'd always leave you thinking, and I think in turn it would make you a bit more aware of the gameplay mechanics and how you can manipulate them into your favor. He may be busy as of late, but I'm sure I, as well as others, had drawn a little bit from him.
Chis was kind enough to take free time to working with the community. Most other moderators would've had me terrified to post, and thus, contribute. I love to help, but at the same time, I like to help my way. I know I can be a bit ridiculous at times, but please understand I appreciate each and every one of you for helping me get better as a gamer and as a person. I'm still doing a lot of growing up, and I'll never really forget everything everybody has taught me.
Then you have the obvious outliers for Sonic that always seem to perform above everybody's expectations at their locals/regionals, and nationals too. Right now, I'm just a guy who places 7th at high-caliber Vegas tourneys, and I can manage to beat average players, but when you find people around my skill level I tend to struggle. Players such as Espy/X/Speed/(insert others here) carry forth our hopes and dreams as (Sonic) players and give us a purpose to keep going. It would look silly if you decided to quit before you got on their level of greatness, now wouldn't it? At least this is the case with me, but I hope I'm not alone in this mentality either.
And knowing that our outliers are not perfect, this gives me hope in believing "I can be the next one!" How awesome would it be if I could join the ranks and be one of those that are regarded as an outlier for Sonic and as a top player in general? No one really knows, and the only way to find out is to get out there and put in work. Seriously, if I don't try, it'd probably suck if I could've been the one to single-handily defeat any and every Lucario player that comes my(/Sonic's?) way; but then I retire before that time and Sonic is left to be discarded into the junk pile...
Anyway if any of you were waiting for me to write about myself, tough luck. Despite all I(may) have done, I think I'm a deadweight and my only purpose is to mentor/gather the concrete data for Sonic. As of now, I've seen to drawn the conclusion that I can only solidify the hard data and give our current and potential outliers a reason to practice and make names for themselves (and Sonic). Even still, I promise I'll follow my word and keep trying until I've reached my full potential (or Sonic's, whichever comes first).
Also, if I did not mention your name, please don't feel like I'm leaving you out from malice. It truly is impossible to credit everybody when so many people have done so much.
Sharpie is the other Sonic player obsessed with Touhou and I get a kick out of it whenever he has something to say about the series; being that I'm still learning everything there is to it.
Malcolm was the one who helped me with the Zero Suit Samus matchup, and the guy I picked up the habit of calling everybody I know on a semi-personal level "a n***a." c: He was also one of the outliers I looked up to before he moved on elsewhere. Still won't forget though.
Shugo... Yeah. What better way to go about proving Sonic's worth than making people eat their own words? Ain't no DTilts gonna hard-counter Sonic (except maybe Mario's. :trollface
.
Goggles is quite the card on the forums, but in person there isn't any one type of person that can't be around him. Truly he's a person with good intentions, just a different method of showing that "love." "Tough love" yes.
[collapse="My past"]And of course, everybody else willing to listen to me. I'll try to keep it short, but up until the second year of foruming, I was kind of in a dark and lonely place. Nobody would care to hear anything I'd say, I'd be forced to pull some favors to get people to even acknowledge me, and it didn't feel right being alive if I wasn't doing anything (good(, for anybody)). Today, I have met a lot of people; people I'll never forget, and I can be myself more times and be accepted for it.
I no longer have to listen to my step-father who is a complete douche, and it felt so good the first time I told him "shut up" after I turned 18 last October. I never would have that confidence if I didn't have people giving me the courage. I no longer have to hide or pretend to be somebody else just to collect some sort of pseudo-happiness. I want to think I am a fair but reasonable person and that I can cooperate with anybody that is willing to do the same.
And to think I still have a ways to go with that too. When I start going to college next year, I hope I can make even more friends, maybe find a part-time job to find some work experience, and start leaving my mark on this world. A girlfriend would be a nice bonus but I don't need that anytime soon.[/collapse][/collapse]
Forgive me for the long pre-writeups, but if you're here, then you must still be interested to know where I'm going with this. I was just trying to emphasis the power of coexistence.
Is there any way we could communicate more often with more people? Not even just Sonic strictly, I've also made it obvious just what kind of influence it has to bond with people on more than just a forum-level (to think that the moderators of '08 were going so far out of their way to police the forums that it was counterproductive for everybody, and here we are now with a slightly more lenient contract and more things getting done than ever before...). You know, like meeting up at tournaments, or talking to more people who may be shy and letting them know they have nothing to fear?
We all have different origins, sure. I just find it amazing that with all our differences, we can all come together to work towards a common goal; which I don't think I need to say anymore times. ^_^
... You know, I think that's really all I have to say. The only thing that's left to do is just make a brief conclusion, which probably doesn't need to be said, but for the sake of wholeness:
-Enter more tournaments.
-For those who use Sonic as for secondaries, why? Any reason I/we could convince you to go solo Sonic more often?
-Get better as players.
-Get better as Sonic players.
-Update the guides written right now.
-Gather new/undocumented data.
-Organize/format the data.
-Make everything more accessible.
-More publicity?
-Push Sonic's metagame further.
-Make it easier for newcomers to break themselves into Sonic.
If I missed anything, feel free to pick up where I left off. Don't think of this as on opening post, but rather just another post. You're all free to put in whatever's on your mind concerning this topic, assuming I didn't already cover it for you.
So with a fantastic year for Sonic, what do people think looking back this year, the years previous, and how much further Sonic can go, where can he go, just how/why he'll go about it?
From my perspective, we got a lot done in terms of getting Sonic publicity. Many seem to have the belief that Sonic is a legitimate threat in tournaments and a skilled Sonic player is nothing to scoff at.
At the same time however, it seems like we still have a lot to get done.
The most obvious is that all of us have a lot of improving left to do. I find it amazing that Sonic has gotten this far on players that still have holes in their gameplay; which suggests that as time goes on and the veterans grow stronger and with the more fresh blood (with talent) show up; the more Sonic can ascend. It's unclear to me whether or not Sonic himself still has room to improve, but as long as players still have room for it, we'll probably be good for a little while longer.
Is there any hub besides the social thread were we can all come to one place and share ideas so that we can improve in places we are faltering, and help those that are struggling to get to where they want to be? Does anything more need to be done besides leave the social thread open for that kind of thing anyway? I'm open for any ideas.
Speaking of newcomers, I'd like to make it easier for them to break themselves into Sonic. I've already stressed that a lot of us who have been around for a while are still working on our game, so how does one expect somebody that's coming in right now to reach a high-caliber point in a reasonable time?
Certainly there are many ways to go about that. I believe one way to go about it is to update the guides, or gather more data on things that are right now undocumented or have no dedicated section anywhere on the Sonic Forum. It's one thing for us; the players, to know, but it's another for anybody who wants to know to look around and find that information as opposed to just stopping by the social thread and asking.
Organization? Sure, we could always use more polishing, but how could we go about it? There's already a community guide in the works, and data is being formatted as it comes in (slowly... hopefully surely though?). I think before organization can be done though the data needs to be gathered/put down, otherwise there's nothing to organize, right?
I believe that's it for that, but now I want to go over what ways we can go about furthering Sonic's metagame.
Let me use extreme cases/outliers to prove my case.
At the very start, a lot of people were conceived with believing that Sonic was one of the worst characters this game had to offer. How did it get from that to where we stand right now? It's not simply a matter of astronomically great players making (for all we know) the worst character to be average, is it?
I think it has something to do with people dropping their old mindsets and adopting new ones. However, some things seem to go unchanged...
I only started in December of '08, so could somebody tell me what's changed with things like the Lucario matchup? If I didn't know better, it seems to only have gotten worse, and there doesn't seem to be any clearcut way of changing it.
Now I'm not saying it's unwinnable. I don't think it is either, but until it becomes obvious, I'd like to keep it from being just that. Being better than our opponents is too obvious of an answer, I'm looking for things like "is it possible Sonic can true combo Lucario into FSmash from a Down Tilt?" and some more hypothetical that could possibly lead into realities. This is how you go about making the matchup better in general, so that we can go more toe-to-toe with our opponents, and anybody can jump in and do the same (regardless of how much work has to be put in prior. If it becomes a "pick-up and go" kind of thing, all the better).
It would all be in vain if all this work people have put in so far got into waste and all of a sudden Sonic finds himself with a true auto-lose matchup, much like Donkey Bong Vs. King Dedede or Ganondorf versus... anybody with frame data to equate to more speed I suppose. Hopefully I am making enough sense.
While that's the biggest priority, it's certainly not to go uncredited if one finds way to go about improving our already good/neutral matchup. Imagine if somebody suddenly found an infinite on Meta Knight with Sonic, just what that'd do? An extreme and unlikely case, but my point still stands that it's probably just as important as making the bad matchups not so bad.
[collapse="regarding good matchups"]This may be a case to case thing, but I believe Espy for example believes that Sonic has a very good advantage on (Powersuit) Samus. It wasn't always like that AFAIK and it was more evenish, if not in her advantage (I don't remember if it was ever like that though...) I'm not sure if I have any right to say it but I agree with him on that notion and I can see where he's coming from.
Samus struggles to kill just as much, if not moreso than Sonic, despite having range over us. Both are capable of living to a reasonably high percent, and they seem to share a lot of similarities. The difference(s) lie in the regard that Sonic is able to abuse Samus' weaknesses more often and much harder than Samus can do with Sonic; and Sonic seems to nullify Samus' strengths. Sonic cannot easily be gimped or harassed offstage, which seems to be a boon in most cases for Samus. Her camping game, while still somewhat lacking, is kind of all she has in some cases. Sonic is simply too fast and mobile to be deterred by an already flawed strategy.[/collapse]
I think I'll leave it at that, just about everything else I could possibly say or think of can be debated and that's not the point of this thread.
That's probably all that can be done that can be backed up with solid credentials. I'll go over more sentimental stuff now.
It's one thing to talk over the internet, but how about meeting the pros and the new guys?
[collapse="friendships forming?"]I would be lying if I said I did not find motivation from my partner (in crime ^_-) and now my best friend, Jerry/"Tails." Before I met him, I had suffered a great defeat at a tourney from two Lucarios (surprise, surprise...). At that point, I had either lost the will to improve, or I saw no point in going on if I could not progress.
Shortly afterwards, I meet this one particular person who just happens to play Sonic. I thought to myself "eh, that's neat." I didn't think of it much, I had thought that it was just a one time case and I'd never see the guy again. My past has led me to believe that people come and go and forming a bond is all but pointless. Nevermind that though, I actually saw the guy around a couple of tournaments, and he even regarded me in a positive manner. I was surprised to find out that somebody like me had drawn a reputation, but regardless, it would be rude of me to turn him down. (I won't cover about how I had drawn that reputation in the first place. Let's just being yourself can get you far.)
I also gathered a bit more hope in this new guy. "If he were just a bit more polished, he'd probably do better, if not even surpassing me..." and so, with nothing but a hunch, I took a chance. I started talking more and more with this guy, and he was willing to listen. Either out of courtesy, or if it was because he had the same determination and the same will I did when I first started to become a better (Sonic) player. In due time, and with a little bit of help, he did improve, and even surpassed my original expectations.
At that same time, my hope in myself had renewed itself. " I can't let the student surpass the teacher!" I said. I didn't think it'd make sense then, or now, for the student to have to look up to a teacher who is worse than he is, so I set out to do better in general. It wouldn't make any sense for somebody with no hope in themselves to help another person, so I had to try, for him and for myself, or I wouldn't (have) feel(/felt) right.[/collapse]
The rest is history. If I had never formed that bond with Jerry, I cannot say with any certainty that I would be where I am now. Granted, I am not completely satisfied with how I keep messing up my inputs, but I am going to make an effort to start attending more tournaments and setting out to set an example for everybody else to follow, and pass on ahead.
At the same time too, it is because of everybody else around here that I've made it this far too.
[collapse="tribute"]I remember attending one of the top-deck tournaments here that I just did awful again. I wanted to give up again, but Kupo told me to keep trying. I'm glad I did, because I didn't see it then that I still had some things I could work on. I thought I was at my end, but I'm still nowhere near it it seems.
Tenki was the go-to guy for mental advice. He'd always leave you thinking, and I think in turn it would make you a bit more aware of the gameplay mechanics and how you can manipulate them into your favor. He may be busy as of late, but I'm sure I, as well as others, had drawn a little bit from him.
Chis was kind enough to take free time to working with the community. Most other moderators would've had me terrified to post, and thus, contribute. I love to help, but at the same time, I like to help my way. I know I can be a bit ridiculous at times, but please understand I appreciate each and every one of you for helping me get better as a gamer and as a person. I'm still doing a lot of growing up, and I'll never really forget everything everybody has taught me.
Then you have the obvious outliers for Sonic that always seem to perform above everybody's expectations at their locals/regionals, and nationals too. Right now, I'm just a guy who places 7th at high-caliber Vegas tourneys, and I can manage to beat average players, but when you find people around my skill level I tend to struggle. Players such as Espy/X/Speed/(insert others here) carry forth our hopes and dreams as (Sonic) players and give us a purpose to keep going. It would look silly if you decided to quit before you got on their level of greatness, now wouldn't it? At least this is the case with me, but I hope I'm not alone in this mentality either.
And knowing that our outliers are not perfect, this gives me hope in believing "I can be the next one!" How awesome would it be if I could join the ranks and be one of those that are regarded as an outlier for Sonic and as a top player in general? No one really knows, and the only way to find out is to get out there and put in work. Seriously, if I don't try, it'd probably suck if I could've been the one to single-handily defeat any and every Lucario player that comes my(/Sonic's?) way; but then I retire before that time and Sonic is left to be discarded into the junk pile...
Anyway if any of you were waiting for me to write about myself, tough luck. Despite all I(may) have done, I think I'm a deadweight and my only purpose is to mentor/gather the concrete data for Sonic. As of now, I've seen to drawn the conclusion that I can only solidify the hard data and give our current and potential outliers a reason to practice and make names for themselves (and Sonic). Even still, I promise I'll follow my word and keep trying until I've reached my full potential (or Sonic's, whichever comes first).
Also, if I did not mention your name, please don't feel like I'm leaving you out from malice. It truly is impossible to credit everybody when so many people have done so much.
Sharpie is the other Sonic player obsessed with Touhou and I get a kick out of it whenever he has something to say about the series; being that I'm still learning everything there is to it.
Malcolm was the one who helped me with the Zero Suit Samus matchup, and the guy I picked up the habit of calling everybody I know on a semi-personal level "a n***a." c: He was also one of the outliers I looked up to before he moved on elsewhere. Still won't forget though.
Shugo... Yeah. What better way to go about proving Sonic's worth than making people eat their own words? Ain't no DTilts gonna hard-counter Sonic (except maybe Mario's. :trollface
.Goggles is quite the card on the forums, but in person there isn't any one type of person that can't be around him. Truly he's a person with good intentions, just a different method of showing that "love." "Tough love" yes.
[collapse="My past"]And of course, everybody else willing to listen to me. I'll try to keep it short, but up until the second year of foruming, I was kind of in a dark and lonely place. Nobody would care to hear anything I'd say, I'd be forced to pull some favors to get people to even acknowledge me, and it didn't feel right being alive if I wasn't doing anything (good(, for anybody)). Today, I have met a lot of people; people I'll never forget, and I can be myself more times and be accepted for it.
I no longer have to listen to my step-father who is a complete douche, and it felt so good the first time I told him "shut up" after I turned 18 last October. I never would have that confidence if I didn't have people giving me the courage. I no longer have to hide or pretend to be somebody else just to collect some sort of pseudo-happiness. I want to think I am a fair but reasonable person and that I can cooperate with anybody that is willing to do the same.
And to think I still have a ways to go with that too. When I start going to college next year, I hope I can make even more friends, maybe find a part-time job to find some work experience, and start leaving my mark on this world. A girlfriend would be a nice bonus but I don't need that anytime soon.[/collapse][/collapse]
Forgive me for the long pre-writeups, but if you're here, then you must still be interested to know where I'm going with this. I was just trying to emphasis the power of coexistence.
Is there any way we could communicate more often with more people? Not even just Sonic strictly, I've also made it obvious just what kind of influence it has to bond with people on more than just a forum-level (to think that the moderators of '08 were going so far out of their way to police the forums that it was counterproductive for everybody, and here we are now with a slightly more lenient contract and more things getting done than ever before...). You know, like meeting up at tournaments, or talking to more people who may be shy and letting them know they have nothing to fear?
We all have different origins, sure. I just find it amazing that with all our differences, we can all come together to work towards a common goal; which I don't think I need to say anymore times. ^_^
... You know, I think that's really all I have to say. The only thing that's left to do is just make a brief conclusion, which probably doesn't need to be said, but for the sake of wholeness:
-Enter more tournaments.
-For those who use Sonic as for secondaries, why? Any reason I/we could convince you to go solo Sonic more often?
-Get better as players.
-Get better as Sonic players.
-Update the guides written right now.
-Gather new/undocumented data.
-Organize/format the data.
-Make everything more accessible.
-More publicity?
-Push Sonic's metagame further.
-Make it easier for newcomers to break themselves into Sonic.
If I missed anything, feel free to pick up where I left off. Don't think of this as on opening post, but rather just another post. You're all free to put in whatever's on your mind concerning this topic, assuming I didn't already cover it for you.
