GMD (Ganon's Moveset discussion)

[Gleam]

I've pretty much taken some quotes for each move from the posters Devil7, and copy pasted them into my other topic. This is why I'm just putting the next moves into each post. Go by fast.

Ray Kalm, on a side note as a Bleach Fan I find your sig to be awesome.
---

Anyways I'm going to the next move. Dair is like Uair, we don't need a reason to describe its Ganonplexness.

GMD #10 Nair

Eh, Nair is nair. Not a great move imo but defintely not a bad one either. It's perhaps our weakest aerial I think.

 

[A2ZOMG]

N-air has good qualities like range and coming out fast. The problem with the N-air is that it can only be used laglessly from a fullhop, and the SH N-air has significant trouble hitting smaller characters (not as much as Falcon’s N-air though). N-air however is pretty good offstage for either edgeguarding or recovering due to the lingering hitboxes and great range. Fullhopped N-airs are a viable brickwall tactic and as Swoops pointed out somewhere else, a fullhopped N-air can be followed up with a low aerial Flame Choke or a double jumped aerial of your choice.

N-air every so often is also a good combo breaker. Sure, it doesn’t hit as low as I’d like it to, but it will get people away from you faster and more reliably than persay a D-air.

Dunno, 3 Ganons. It’s not an amazing attack, but it has merits. If it was more powerful then I'd definitely give it a higher rating because that's pretty much the main thing holding back this attack (aside from existing situationality from landing lag and hitbox area).

 

[hyperstation]

Nair comes out really quickly and as such, it's able to sometimes break combos on the knockback from the move that precedes it. That is, if you're being hit back in the air from certain moves, you can occasionally catch the opponent with a nair on your way back just by smashing the A button. I can't give specific examples at this point, but I know I do this a lot, rather instinctively, against my friend who mains samus.

I'd say one of Nair's greatest attributes is that it adds variation to Ganon's game. I'm finding more and more as I keep pushing my ganon as far as he can go that the best way to dominate with ganon is to be as unpredictable and un-repetitive as possible. I try to keep this in the front of my mind when I'm playing someone and I try not to fall into traps of "oh, this move is working, I'll just keep using it" because chances are, it won't keep working, and you'll keep dominance longer if you can keep effing with your opponent with every option you've got. I want my opponent to have to watch me very carefully every time ganon leaves his feet. I don't want any of my approaches to become legible like a pattern. Using swoops FH nair knowledge is just another possibility. I think FH Nair > FH Nair > Buffered follow up is a phenomenal attack against almost any character. The only time this becomes less successful is when they can read it ahead of time and get underneath it before either kick stops them.

This move is great from a stand still with great range, also. You can often surprise your opponent with this at close range when they might be expecting a jab or dtilt. Quick off your feet and covers a lot of range both vertically and laterally. You have a lot of time in the air to push it forward or backwards, remember. Effectively, you can go from a standstill to either an offensive approach or a defensive retreat with relative ease.

I'll give it 3/5, but I'm finding it more and more useful every time I pick up the controller. This is a move that can be pushed harder.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd say one of Nair's greatest attributes is that it adds variation to Ganon's game. I'm finding more and more as I keep pushing my ganon as far as he can go that the best way to dominate with ganon is to be as unpredictable and un-repetitive as possible.

Y'know, I once asked Teh_Spammerer why he was able to do so well against my G&W with Jigglypuff. He said it was because “well, you kinda do the same thing over and over again, so it’s not that hard to see what’s coming.” Then he 3stocked my Ganondorf, again with Jigglypuff. This time he said “well, Ganon sucks and is forced to do the same thing over and over again.”

I approve your statement.

 

[hyperstation]

I approve your signature, because it's just so ****ing funny. But it's true...in the videos where you see a Ganon whooping the life out of another character, it's never because he's just better at thunderstorming than any other Ganon. It's because he's playing so unpredictably that the other player is always on mental defense. It's tiring to be good at Ganon because you have to think - and change your thinking - constantly, but it's equally tiring to play against a good Ganon. My roommate is a nasty Samus, and we have ridiculously long battles sometimes because we know one another so well. At the end of those matches we have to sit and cool down because our brains just ache.

I'm still totally convinced that Ganon is going to start gaining respect because when you play (or see someone play) a really good match, it's scary. It's not like watching a good metaknight or GaW pressure someone with constant offense, it's like a whole different game, and it shuts people down from the inside out.

Side note: watch your replays. Scrutinize them. Chances are you remember them being a lot better than they actually were, and if you go back and watch them, you'll find patterns, movements/spacing that broadcast what your attack plan is, and other instances of habitual back-sliding. You have to know your Ganon better than anyone (obviously), and I think a big part of that is stepping back, watching yourself, and noting and fixing every little thing you do wrong. You'll find that sometimes the muscle memory in your thumbs do the thinking for you rather than your intelligence.

 

[Devil7]

Exactly this is why I love nair, and bair on the same note. No one sees them coming when you mix it up.
I give nair

It has it uses.

 

[Gleam]

Ganon downright needs some respect.

Next move.

GMD #11 Usmash

Usmash owns...nuff said.

 

[weinner]

Usmash has a lot less lag than most of Ganon's other smashes, really helpful considering the lag of his other moves. It's also fairly strong too.

 

[Devil7]

up smash is really good, (better on stages with low ceilings). This is best used for platform punishing, and vertical tea bagging. It has a good range, but not as good as snake's utilt. Its got awesome power behind it and is a good light weight finisher.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I give U-smash 4 Ganons.

It's a very good attack, especially when you consider what Brawl is all about. In Brawl, the game is ruled by characters that are able to throw out powerful attacks safely. The U-smash for the large part fits that bill perfectly. It does 23% undiminished, which is more than Falcon's U-smash. It comes out reasonably fast, and has virtually zero ending lag, so basically it has all the properties of a good attack.

The only reason why I don't give the U-smash any more Ganons is because it's not nearly as spammable as persay the D-air or U-air. It would be spammable if Ganon could slide across the world with it like Snake does, but sadly he can't. =(

It's a better damage dealer than a kill move, but it does have very good kill strength. U-smash to anything is too good btw, and in training mode D-air -> U-smash COMBOS at certain percents. Well-timed, it's also a pretty good anti-air attack, although I can't honestly say I'm very good at using it for that.

 

[Gleam]

On to the next attack.

GMD #12 Dsmash

Admittingly, Dsmash has a been a move that I've always wanted to try to incorporate but wasn't sure exactly how. Words on this?

 

[A2ZOMG]

2.5 - 3 Ganons.

I think it has the fastest startup of Ganon's Smashes. The range is quite good too. D-smash is more viable than F-smash for punishing the lag of an attack, while F-smash is better for intercepting an approach or punishing a roll. It's also the weakest of Ganon's Smashes, having pretty average knockback and only slightly above average damage.

D-tilt is usually better though. Better range, better speed, less laggy.

 

[Swoops]

2 Ganons

D-Smash is probably my least used Ganon move (next to Warlock Punch and U-Tilt.) Faster than any of Ganon's smashes, which is some pretty good start up, but I usually don't use this move unless it's accident. Weakest of his smashes and I'm pretty sure it's easy to air dodge out of the second hit because I've had it done constantly. Overall though, it can be decent out of shield for some good damage, and it's speed makes it at least semi-usable. Um...I suppose you can use it out of gerudo every so often, but you usually have better options. I think in general you usually have better options then D-Smash.

 

[:034:]

2 Ganons.

It's just not good - while it has a good startup, the lag is still bad and you can't do anything with it. It does high percent damage but it's a really weak smash. It's hitbox isn't remarkable. I, too, have always tried to implement it in my game but I just can't really find anything. I should test FC -> dsmash...

 

[hyperstation]

I've been trying to use dsmash the way good falcon players in melee used it as an edge guard, but it seems fruitless. There's no forward knock back on the first kick like there was in melee - at least as far as I can tell - so I don't think there's much to be done with dsmash in that regard. This move usually just comes out by accident for me when I mean for a buffered tilt but occasionally get a down smash.

 

[Devil7]

I've been trying to use dsmash the way good falcon players in melee used it as an edge guard, but it seems fruitless. There's no forward knock back on the first kick like there was in melee - at least as far as I can tell - so I don't think there's much to be done with dsmash in that regard. This move usually just comes out by accident for me when I mean for a buffered tilt but occasionally get a down smash.

actually I've been jacking around with this and as far as I can tell in the first few frames of the first kick it does knock them away, but it isn't much. It basically as soon as he starts moving his foot forward. The only reason I starting doing this was because I accidentally kicked someone away from the edge with it.

 

[hyperstation]

^well that's nice to hear. I'll see what I can make of this.

edit - nothing to see here, folks. Turns out there's a sourspot on his first kick. It deals 5 damage and has next to no knockback. The only way I could see this being useful is on someone's recovery, sourspotting the first kick away from the stage then fsmashing for the kill. But even then, you have to wait for the second kick of the down smash to finish. Prospects seem dim.

 

[Devil7]

Yeah because they have to be so close and its so hard to hit often it basically useless, because you have to hit right before the invincibility frames kick in for the edge grab.

 

[Gleam]

So all in all, Dsmash is a little more than suck...eh?

GMD #13 Fsmash

Far better than Dsmash I can tell you...

 

[hyperstation]

F smash is great.

Charge it to punish missed grabbers (especially zamus, samus, link, toon link, lucas, ness, and any other tether dudes who have long grab recovery).

Buffer a Dair that comes up short with a c-sticked fsmash. It stutter steps. One of my favorite sequences. Approach with a cautious dair in the hopes that your opponent advances, and if they don't, fsmash to the face. You can also purposely dair way short from your target as bait. You do this to set up spacing for a stuttered fsmash. It's good to buffer other approaches with this too...rar uair, rar bair, FJ nair, however this is not as consistent or reliable as buffering with dtilt, jab, or ftilt.

Good in spot dodge battles since the move stays out for a while. It can catch people right out of their spot dodge, even if it seems like the move is done. Same with shields. It pushes them back pretty far and does nasty shield damage...and everyone knows the pleasure of breaking someone's shield so you can finally work that warlock punch. mmm.

3.5/5. It doesn't get a better score because you can't use it enough. If it were a little less situational, it'd get 4/5 easily, but as of this writing, it's still used too sparsely.

 

[Gleam]

Fsmash sounds good enough, so I'm going off to the next move...or rather moves.

GMD #14 B moves.

Warlock Punch sucks.

Dark Dive is meh at best

Wizard Foot is suprringly good.

Murder Choke gets a Googagnonplex of Ganons...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Warlock Punch gets 1.5 Ganons.

It has TWO reasonable uses, one of which is only half reasonable. The obvious one is vs a broken shield, which of course is the best way to use it. The other one is exploiting the DI from a reverse Warlock Punch while recovering, but this leaves you vulnerable to characters who have a huge zone at which they can edgeguard safely at. Otherwise there are better moves than the Warlock Punch for every situation.

Dark Dive gets 3 Ganons.

It's a risky but effective edgeguard, both with the Uppercut and the grab part because of the insane priority. It's also one of Ganon's better options out of shield because of it being a pretty fast grab. However otherwise it's really weak and the landing lag is bad, making it situational.

Wizard's Foot gets 4 Ganons

GREAT punishing attack thanks to the long duration, good range, and decent speed. The priority is really good too, so it can be used to smash through a variety of attacks. At high percents, the ground WF gets people off stage nicely, and the air WF kills people fast (kills Mario at like 84% on FD if I recall, which is only 1% more than Bowser's Down-B) Finns7 also perfected the perfect edgeguard with it. All in all this attack is GOOD.

Oh and sweetspotting the edge with an aerial Wizard's Foot is the most badass way to recover ever.

Murder Choke gets 5 Ganons. Absolutely essential for Ganon and one of his few redeeming qualities that makes him a threat. This one attack can give shielders and would be edgehoggers a big scare, and it makes Ganon a ****ing amazing combo monster.

 

[:034:]

Warlock gets 0 Ganons. It looks fancy, that's it. The range is terrible, you can stand right next to Ganondorf while he's charging it and you'll step past him and MISS. Half of the cast can probably duck underneath it as well. And on top of that, the lag is terrible, unlike utilt.

Dark Dive gets 4 Ganons, for being the most reliable recovery move. It has gigantic grab range, both attacking and grabbing the ledge. Dark Uppercut is HUUUGE. Out of shield, this ***** more than shieldgrab because of the range. The landing lag is still bad though. x:

Wizard's Foot gets 3.5 Ganons. I agree with A2ZOMG on everything, but.. I'm just not as excited about this move, even though I use it a lot.

Flame Choke gets over 8000 Ganons.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Warlock Punch is crap quite frankly. But its such a manly attack its prescence alone causes its score to plummet to minus infinity than wrap round into a positive mark of 5 million Ganon out of 5. Seriously speaking 1 Ganon out of 5 it still has its use for recovery if you have fast enough fingers.

Dark Dive is 3.5 Ganon's. People who think this recovery is gimpable are the same who think they can finish Ike during an Aether (well except Lucas who holds the niche of actually being able to hit Ike during that attack.) The distance this covers and grab range is HUUUGE and the uppercut part of the attack is manly, on some thinner stages like Battlefield its very easy to come underneath the stage and still grab the ledge. Meanwhile the attack part is so massive it can cover an entire 1/3rd almost of the entire bottom platform. However the grab part of the attack despite is fantastic hitbox is utter ***. No hit stun means some characters can hit you as soon as you let go, not to mention the horrendous lag.

Wizard Kick is 3.5 Ganon's. The priority of this attack is absolutely hideous, just about anything can cancel it out with no effort not to mention the horrible ending lag. However the hitbox of this attack is incredible and the aerial version is fantastic for getting Ganon back on the ground where he belongs after a launcher attack. Its saving grace however is how v+B off the stage makes for a fantastic chasing move and has multiple options to follow up with. I think theres still more potential for this move still to be found as well. Also say what you will about the Quake part of the attack but I'm still pretty sure it actually hits certain characters normally immune to Flame Choke follow ups.

Speaking of which >+B can't even be scored. Its such and important attack and the center of every players offense and punishment no score would justify it. Instead have a manly Ganondorf.

 

[Gleam]

Sounds good to me. Looks like I underestimated the Dark Dive.
---

Now we've gone over Ganon's moveset, save for the grabs and Dash Attack I think. Which you can add the Dash attack in your later posts.

Now, time to discuss Strategies.
---

Do any of you great Ganon mainers have a certain strategy that seems to work the majority of times against opponents?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A common one would be the D-Air approach, but just like every other approach this gets old to and becomes easy to predict and punish. So I tend to use the Wizard Foot as a surprise approach, or my favorite: jump twice making your opponent think your going to attack them but stop and fast fall at down tilt range, then down tilt of course.

Those are my approaches basically.

A good way I always keep players from getting back on the stage would be, Up Air just before they air dodge then Up Air again for a assured hit.

 

[Gleam]

I'm going to give this one last bump for anyone who thinks they have some pretty good strategies they use for Ganondorf.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

To be honest I think strategies/play tactics is probably something better left for character specific matchups, it seems too broad a thing to be asking realistically.

 

[Gleam]

To be honest I think strategies/play tactics is probably something better left for character specific matchups, it seems too broad a thing to be asking realistically.

I understand what you mean now.

However, I believe I didn't put in the Dash Attack discussion, so if anyone wants to to put give input on that, be appreciated.

 

[TP]

I give Dash Attack 4 Ganons out of 5... perhaps only 3, but I'll round up.

It moves surprisingly fast, which can catch people off guard. Surprising them is great, seeing as this thing kills. Sadly, the later part of the move does not kill nearly as well as the early part. The later part is easier to hit with, since you can take full advantage of the speed boost if you start farther back. I can't give this move a really great score because it may be great as a surprise, but when the surprise is over, it is just begging to be shielded, then shield-grabbed.

Note that it does get the full 5 Ganons against anyone who can be hit by this directly out of a FC.

 

[Gleam]

Everything sounds good enough right now, so this is it. Thanks everyone for the input.

 

[LinkSceptile333]

Flying Dutchman, I believe Murder Choke gets over 9000 Ganons.

 

[hyperstation]

or my favorite: jump twice making your opponent think your going to attack them but stop and fast fall at down tilt range, then down tilt of course.

ooooiiiee goooooooooeeeeeyyy. me like dis wun.

 

[fromundaman]

Okay, I'm a little late on this, but oh well.

First off:

...We need a short hop lagless fair...

Actually... there already is one. Granted, not completely lagless, but if you short hop, do a fair once you reach the top of the jump (approximately, I have a hard time describing exactly when to pull it out), then hold down the moment Ganon shouts/yells/whatever the hell he's doing, then he will come crashing down with his fist. However, if you hold down before he yells, the animation will happen but no damage will be done. Also, since you accelerate to the ground, for some reason the landing animation is shortened (or so it seems, though it is MUCH more obvious on the Nair.)

As for strategies, Nair, my new favorite Ganon move. I was experimenting in Training yesterday, and if you do the same thing described above, only with the Nair, you can do a quick kick with almost no landing lag. Also, since you land in a crouch, you can easily follow up with a dtilt to stutter step fsmash at lower percentages. On top of that, the closer you get to the ground before hitting the Nair, the less time it stays out. You can actually make it so the move barely flashes on the screen (It would in that case only even show up as an actual attack if you hit something.) I love it as a way to move forward, as it cancels most projectiles, MK's tornado, and is decent for setting up combos. Also, since most people expect you to attack as soon as Ganon leaves the ground (like when you thunderstorm), they rarely expect a quick potential combo-starting attack as you get back towards the ground.

However, I have only been trying it against comps, so someone try it against an actual player and tell me if that actually works against humans.

(I haven't seen any videos/mentions of this so far, so I'll try to get a video to illustrate what I mean when my friend lets me use his camera.)

Hopefully this turns out to be as good as I'm making it sound... Works well against comps in any case.

 

[:034:]

Flying Dutchman, I believe Murder Choke gets over 9000 Ganons.

No'p! Original translation is over 8000. Check the manga, or look up the japanese clip on youtube.

 

[hyperstation]

Okay, I'm a little late on this, but oh well.

First off:
Actually... there already is one. Granted, not completely lagless, but if you short hop, do a fair once you reach the top of the jump (approximately, I have a hard time describing exactly when to pull it out), then hold down the moment Ganon shouts/yells/whatever the hell he's doing, then he will come crashing down with his fist. However, if you hold down before he yells, the animation will happen but no damage will be done. Also, since you accelerate to the ground, for some reason the landing animation is shortened (or so it seems, though it is MUCH more obvious on the Nair.)

As for strategies, Nair, my new favorite Ganon move. I was experimenting in Training yesterday, and if you do the same thing described above, only with the Nair, you can do a quick kick with almost no landing lag. Also, since you land in a crouch, you can easily follow up with a dtilt to stutter step fsmash at lower percentages. On top of that, the closer you get to the ground before hitting the Nair, the less time it stays out. You can actually make it so the move barely flashes on the screen (It would in that case only even show up as an actual attack if you hit something.) I love it as a way to move forward, as it cancels most projectiles, MK's tornado, and is decent for setting up combos. Also, since most people expect you to attack as soon as Ganon leaves the ground (like when you thunderstorm), they rarely expect a quick potential combo-starting attack as you get back towards the ground.

However, I have only been trying it against comps, so someone try it against an actual player and tell me if that actually works against humans.

(I haven't seen any videos/mentions of this so far, so I'll try to get a video to illustrate what I mean when my friend lets me use his camera.)

Hopefully this turns out to be as good as I'm making it sound... Works well against comps in any case.

I'm intrigued, to say the least. Get that video together if you can. In the meantime, I'm going to go try to make some sense of what you said in training mode.

 

[fromundaman]

Just remember, wait till Ganon yells before accelerating his fall, otherwise you'll wonder why the hell Ganon's fist/foot came crashing through his opponent's skull yet did no damage.

Will do ASAP for the video.

 

[Gleam]

It actually does sound pretty interesting. You need to get video up ASAP if its true.

 

[Swoops]

^_- I'm skeptical...mostly because it sounds to good to be true.

EDIT: Ok, you need to get some videos up, because I'm pretty sure this is untrue. Are you sure it doesn't just seem like less lag because you are fastfalling, therefore the entirety of the move is faster?

 

[fromundaman]

Okay, did a little more testing with this and I think I may have overestimated it it a bit, but not for the reasons you're thinking. Actually, you're right, the landing lag on the Nair decent thingy is less than I thought, but the Dtilt does seem to get out much faster than usual after it, so maybe it has IASA properties (okay, I really don't know much about these abbreviations, so this is hopefully still making some sort of sense.). However, you can get shield grabbed out of it unless you time it perfectly though, so that makes it a lot less good than I'd thought...
As for the short hopped Fair though, I found it better than I thought, since if timed right, the landing animation and the move seem to merge.

The video isn't too great, but as soon as youtube let's me, I'll put it up.