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Gliding over tall buildings in a single shuttle loop: The Meta Knight Social

Ahenobarbus

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
72
Location
South Bend, IN
Results not up yet. It was only a ~30 man event and without most of the top Chicago players (Aki, Faceroll, and ORLY were top 3 iirc). I'll post the thread once it's up.

Lost to Aki (Ness) in winner's semis. That cg is rough (especially when you learn of its existence in tournament) and the second game was much closer (last stock red %), but he obviously just outplayed me. My best win was against Mars' Fox/Falco (2-1. beat Fox, lost to Falco, beat Falco) in winners, but lost to his Samus (2-1. beat his Falco but his Samus beat me twice after) in losers. It was my first time playing Samus and I was still stuck in the spacies "throw offstage and edgeguard" mode for a while until I realized that "uair to oblivion" was actually the way to go, too late in game 3. Poptart (old Melee player from South Bend) was supposed to win my pool, but I beat his M2 then Falco 2-0. I think no one in my pool was notable. The tags I remember are Pitu (Mario/Marth), Sneaky Panda (Sheik), something beginning with Kai (Link), and a Pikachu whose name I don't recall, but was the 3rd to make it out. The Pika and I had close games that prob would have gone to game 3 if he hadn't messed up an up b recovery.

Tbh almost all of my individual games were close, I just kept clutching out the last stock. My MK is definitely nothing special yet but I thought I did a really good job of learning matchups on the fly. I will say that, relative to my level as a player, my MK is pretty good against spacies. I'd never played a Mario, Pika, or Link main before so I was happy with my adaptation in those games. Next tournament I will probably go back to getting bodied though, I just had one of those days. Looking forward to it either way.
 

AlmightySo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
98
Location
Harlem
Hey guys, new MK here. Just went to my second tournament (Events2Compete monthly in Chicago area) and somehow got top 8, 2-0ing my entire pool. Anyways, I'm really excited to talk about MK's potential. So many mixups. I started playing MK because I was playing Marth too aggressively, so I decided to change my character instead of my style and it's working out really well.

So I'll start with a question: what's your favorite MK mixup(s), and what kind of conditioning goes into it?

Mine: out of bthrow offstage (or anything that gets them offstage) I run to the very edge of the stage, dash cancel, then dash back, dash cancel, pivot fsmash. My main use for the mixup was when people (Samus and Mewtwo) were hitting me with combo breaking moves because I still don't firmly know what links for real. So it fools them into DIing back onto stage and throwing out a hitbox and then eating a fsmash. You can also just run to the edge and wavedash back to do it faster, but I found that the opponent generally reacts better to a dash into wavedash back than to dash into dashcancel (this is the moment they see that DIing in will be good). Then you run away and smack them with your sword, thereafter calmly explaining to them that they have much left to learn, or that victory is, after all, your destiny.

Though for all I know, that could be totally fraudulent.
My favorite mixup with mk is probably after getting one or two DC's on them Instant or not, i will DC in place or DC back and see their reaction. Then i will punish accordingly. Eg. if they shield i will DC in front of them then grab.
 

CryoGX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
470
NNID
CryoGX
Unless neutral B is changed entirely, I believe this will sum up the arrival of Meta Knight (even within the first 30 s-- actually first 2 seconds) when Smash releases, regardless of nerfs.

 
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Spleenhunter

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
52
Hey guys, I usually play as Samus, but I'm wanting to pick up Meta Knight as a secondary (or possibly eventually switching to maining him). It's pretty fun to learn a character who's a lot faster and combo heavy than what I'm used to. I have a couple of questions after researching a little bit of MK and figured this is a good place to ask.

1. I was reading one of the threads and someone was talking about using full jump autocancel nairs onto a platform. Does this work on any platform height, or only certain stages (and is it as simple as just jumping and nairing)? And are there other useful autocancels that I should know about?

2. I watched Kappy's guide on youtube, and he was using double aerials in one full jump, even fast enough to get a second Up air before hitting a platform. The only way I can do it fast enough to use tap jump (and C stick). Will I run into any problems with my tech skill if I start using Tap jump for full jumps and Y for short hops? I would prefer to not change my controls from Melee if possible.

3. My practice parter plays a mean Donkey Kong. I know it is important to have good movement and DD to bait his attacks, but is there anything specifically that is important to know against DK (especially considering his range advantage)? What are some combos that I need to watch out for? And are there any percents where there is a guaranteed Up air to Bair combo on DK that I should be aware of?
 

Ahenobarbus

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
72
Location
South Bend, IN
Hey guys, I usually play as Samus, but I'm wanting to pick up Meta Knight as a secondary (or possibly eventually switching to maining him). It's pretty fun to learn a character who's a lot faster and combo heavy than what I'm used to. I have a couple of questions after researching a little bit of MK and figured this is a good place to ask.

1. I was reading one of the threads and someone was talking about using full jump autocancel nairs onto a platform. Does this work on any platform height, or only certain stages (and is it as simple as just jumping and nairing)? And are there other useful autocancels that I should know about?

2. I watched Kappy's guide on youtube, and he was using double aerials in one full jump, even fast enough to get a second Up air before hitting a platform. The only way I can do it fast enough to use tap jump (and C stick). Will I run into any problems with my tech skill if I start using Tap jump for full jumps and Y for short hops? I would prefer to not change my controls from Melee if possible.

3. My practice parter plays a mean Donkey Kong. I know it is important to have good movement and DD to bait his attacks, but is there anything specifically that is important to know against DK (especially considering his range advantage)? What are some combos that I need to watch out for? And are there any percents where there is a guaranteed Up air to Bair combo on DK that I should be aware of?
First of all, welcome!

1. The mysteries of autocancel nair remain murky to me so I can't really help you here. All I can tell you is that the timing is tight enough that I have trouble doing it consistently.

2. I tap jump only to fullhop double uair on platforms, and it doesn't cause problems for me. Unless you claw it's pretty hard to do it otherwise. Pro tip: edgecancel the double uairs.

3. Against DK it's important to remember that while he has a range advantage, you have disjoint and he doesn't. Against DK you can do things like ftilt/dtilt his fist/foot when he ftilts/dtilts/bairs/does any other move, since his hitboxes are also hurtboxes. I like to just mix in ftilt/dtilt while I'm DDing just outside of his range and then follow up with grab if it hits. I can't help you with %s, but DK will generally try to dair out of your juggle if your spacing is questionable, so don't push it. His biggest combo tool will be uair, so that's the move to look out for. Also iirc MK's dair trades with DK's upb. Risky, but you will survive and he'll get the spike hitbox if you hit it right.
 

Spleenhunter

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
52
First of all, welcome!

1. The mysteries of autocancel nair remain murky to me so I can't really help you here. All I can tell you is that the timing is tight enough that I have trouble doing it consistently.

2. I tap jump only to fullhop double uair on platforms, and it doesn't cause problems for me. Unless you claw it's pretty hard to do it otherwise. Pro tip: edgecancel the double uairs.

3. Against DK it's important to remember that while he has a range advantage, you have disjoint and he doesn't. Against DK you can do things like ftilt/dtilt his fist/foot when he ftilts/dtilts/bairs/does any other move, since his hitboxes are also hurtboxes. I like to just mix in ftilt/dtilt while I'm DDing just outside of his range and then follow up with grab if it hits. I can't help you with %s, but DK will generally try to dair out of your juggle if your spacing is questionable, so don't push it. His biggest combo tool will be uair, so that's the move to look out for. Also iirc MK's dair trades with DK's upb. Risky, but you will survive and he'll get the spike hitbox if you hit it right.
Thanks a lot for the answer! It's good to know that I'm not doing something ultra weird with the controls. And I'll definitely practice the ledge cancelling (when I'm messing around as Ganon that's my favorite thing to do with Wizard's foot).

I'll try to incorporate those into my DK play. And that dair trade is brilliant! I figured that trading is almost always bad for MK because he is so light, but that is definitely a favorable trade.
 

AlmightySo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
98
Location
Harlem
First of all, welcome!

1. The mysteries of autocancel nair remain murky to me so I can't really help you here. All I can tell you is that the timing is tight enough that I have trouble doing it consistently.

2. I tap jump only to fullhop double uair on platforms, and it doesn't cause problems for me. Unless you claw it's pretty hard to do it otherwise. Pro tip: edgecancel the double uairs.

3. Against DK it's important to remember that while he has a range advantage, you have disjoint and he doesn't. Against DK you can do things like ftilt/dtilt his fist/foot when he ftilts/dtilts/bairs/does any other move, since his hitboxes are also hurtboxes. I like to just mix in ftilt/dtilt while I'm DDing just outside of his range and then follow up with grab if it hits. I can't help you with %s, but DK will generally try to dair out of your juggle if your spacing is questionable, so don't push it. His biggest combo tool will be uair, so that's the move to look out for. Also iirc MK's dair trades with DK's upb. Risky, but you will survive and he'll get the spike hitbox if you hit it right.
About the whole dair trading with his upb. I dont really remember the exact situation but something similar happens with snakes upb. Using dair to stop recoveries on other characters is something ill be looking into now. Sounds like a really good option.
 

Sartron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
291
Location
Central Florida
1. I was reading one of the threads and someone was talking about using full jump autocancel nairs onto a platform. Does this work on any platform height, or only certain stages (and is it as simple as just jumping and nairing)? And are there other useful autocancels that I should know about?
Auto-canceling isn't the word you're looking for, I think you're looking for platform cancel or at least just not auto-cancel. Anyways, it has a 2 frame window. You input nair on frames 6-7 of your full hop.

I know it works on Battlefield, Warioware, and Pokémon Stadium 2. Just check the platform heights.
 

Spleenhunter

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
52
Auto-canceling isn't the word you're looking for, I think you're looking for platform cancel or at least just not auto-cancel. Anyways, it has a 2 frame window. You input nair on frames 6-7 of your full hop.

I know it works on Battlefield, Warioware, and Pokémon Stadium 2. Just check the platform heights.
Hmm interesting. Do i need to fast fall that at a specific time, or will it cancel given the correct timing?
 

Sartron

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Jan 1, 2013
Messages
291
Location
Central Florida
Hmm interesting. Do i need to fast fall that at a specific time, or will it cancel given the correct timing?
You don't need to do anything else. Meta Knight cannot fast fall until frame 26 so don't worry about that messing you up. Just full hop and nair at the right time and it will cancel. Don't forget to L-Cancel too, as it doesn't auto-cancel. Auto-canceled nair would be worse than L-Canceled nair anyways.
 

Spleenhunter

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
52
You don't need to do anything else. Meta Knight cannot fast fall until frame 26 so don't worry about that messing you up. Just full hop and nair at the right time and it will cancel. Don't forget to L-Cancel too, as it doesn't auto-cancel. Auto-canceled nair would be worse than L-Canceled nair anyways.
Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll start using that more often in my matches.
 

Ahenobarbus

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
72
Location
South Bend, IN
About the whole dair trading with his upb. I dont really remember the exact situation but something similar happens with snakes upb. Using dair to stop recoveries on other characters is something ill be looking into now. Sounds like a really good option.
I used to use Marth's dair to trade with Snake's upb in Brawl (Mr. R does it very well if you wanna hunt for a vid), and the hitbox on the hover thingy (idk what its called) is bigger in PM I believe. A lot of spikes/semi spikes/meteor smashes that should be self destructs can probably trade with it (though I haven't tested these in PM). MK dair, falling Falco dair, Marth/Roy dair, Wario dair (though you generally live his if it hits anyway, trading prob just makes it easier/available lower offstage), TL dair (If that's still a spike in PM? never play him), DK dair all come to mind. Probably more too, I just cant think of any. Probably gonna test some of these tonight, so I'll report back.
 

Ahenobarbus

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Messages
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South Bend, IN
I'm in the lab now, and can confirm that MK's dair trades with Snake's upB. It's really easy actually. While practicing it I never SDed, but I did get hit and not have my dair connect very few times. Well worth the risk though. I think Rolex has said that MK is snake's worst MU, and with that auto edgeguard it's easy to see why. It's harder to do with Marth but still not that hard. But with Marth you don't wanna overextend like that so I cant really recommend it as a viable strategy.

MK dair can trade with DK's upb too, but you have to hit one of his fists (the middle of his body will result in SD kill). I would not recommend ever going for it now that I've thoroughly tested it tbh. But if you stand on the very edge of the stage and fullhop to dair, you can punish a missed sweetspot by DK really hard. Especially if you dash toward the middle of the stage then wavedash back onto the ledge right after, it should kill every time
 

AlmightySo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
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Harlem
I'm in the lab now, and can confirm that MK's dair trades with Snake's upB. It's really easy actually. While practicing it I never SDed, but I did get hit and not have my dair connect very few times. Well worth the risk though. I think Rolex has said that MK is snake's worst MU, and with that auto edgeguard it's easy to see why. It's harder to do with Marth but still not that hard. But with Marth you don't wanna overextend like that so I cant really recommend it as a viable strategy.

MK dair can trade with DK's upb too, but you have to hit one of his fists (the middle of his body will result in SD kill). I would not recommend ever going for it now that I've thoroughly tested it tbh. But if you stand on the very edge of the stage and fullhop to dair, you can punish a missed sweetspot by DK really hard. Especially if you dash toward the middle of the stage then wavedash back onto the ledge right after, it should kill every time
Im definitely gonna look into as many characters as i can but i need my friend to help me with it. ill try to post results on monday or tuesday. Im planning on trying this with all characters. I will probably make a new thread for it though.
 

Ahenobarbus

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South Bend, IN
Im definitely gonna look into as many characters as i can but i need my friend to help me with it. ill try to post results on monday or tuesday. Im planning on trying this with all characters. I will probably make a new thread for it though.
If you don't have a friend available, just go to Dracula's for the huge blast zones. That way you can set the CPU to ~60% and hit him with the full DC hit (the angle is lower than fsmash) and it almost always gives you an angle to trade with upb. It was easy to set up with both DK and Snake.

Theoretically you could trade with any recovery (I think?) because of MK's transcendent priority. Just have to determine which ones it's possible to connect with consistently. Unless by "as many characters as I can" you mean who can trade with Snake's upb, not whom MK can trade with.
 

AlmightySo

Smash Apprentice
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If you don't have a friend available, just go to Dracula's for the huge blast zones. That way you can set the CPU to ~60% and hit him with the full DC hit (the angle is lower than fsmash) and it almost always gives you an angle to trade with upb. It was easy to set up with both DK and Snake.

Theoretically you could trade with any recovery (I think?) because of MK's transcendent priority. Just have to determine which ones it's possible to connect with consistently. Unless by "as many characters as I can" you mean who can trade with Snake's upb, not whom MK can trade with.
That sounds like a decent idea but id rather just do it with my friend tommorow or tuesday. Will post results
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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Jun 1, 2013
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1. I was reading one of the threads and someone was talking about using full jump autocancel nairs onto a platform. Does this work on any platform height, or only certain stages (and is it as simple as just jumping and nairing)? And are there other useful autocancels that I should know about?
Are you refering to autoland (not autocancel?) It works everywhere, press full jump, nair at half height, hold down, you will automatically land on the platform. Autocancels are regular landings inside of an autocancel window causing only as much landing lag as you would have when landing without aerial.
 

Spleenhunter

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
52
Are you refering to autoland (not autocancel?) It works everywhere, press full jump, nair at half height, hold down, you will automatically land on the platform. Autocancels are regular landings inside of an autocancel window causing only as much landing lag as you would have when landing without aerial.
I must have been thinking of autolanding, because that fits the description of what I was wondering.

But now that you bring up autocancels, are they useful to learn with Metaknight? If so, what is the best way to practice them?
 

AlmightySo

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Sorry guys i wont be able to post the thread about MK's dair until the end of the week. Will be very informative though.
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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I must have been thinking of autolanding, because that fits the description of what I was wondering.

But now that you bring up autocancels, are they useful to learn with Metaknight? If so, what is the best way to practice them?
Well the biggest use I could imagine is at the end of a move, because the window is constructed in a way that autocancels can normally appear at the very beginning and end. The autocancel at the beginning ends before a hitbox comes out so that is only useful in limited situations, and landing at the end of the move just simulates the animation ended eariler and you won't have to deal with the landing lag. MK's autocancel windows aren't constructed in a way that you can do crazy stuff with them like in Brawl though.
There isn't really a way to learn them, just land in the autocancel frames given in the frame data thread, no additional inputs required.
 

Spleenhunter

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
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Well the biggest use I could imagine is at the end of a move, because the window is constructed in a way that autocancels can normally appear at the very beginning and end. The autocancel at the beginning ends before a hitbox comes out so that is only useful in limited situations, and landing at the end of the move just simulates the animation ended eariler and you won't have to deal with the landing lag. MK's autocancel windows aren't constructed in a way that you can do crazy stuff with them like in Brawl though.
There isn't really a way to learn them, just land in the autocancel frames given in the frame data thread, no additional inputs required.
Thanks that's helpful. I was always really confused when I heard about autocancelling, and I remember Sheik had a few useful ones from Melee. But that explanation makes sense.
 

AlmightySo

Smash Apprentice
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Yo recently took a local using Meta Knight, have a couple of videos up that I would like to be critiqued.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIz5uq5VfPU LF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CW5cvf_XLw GF
Only watched first game cause im lazy but i noticed a couple things.
1. Your dairs were really obvious. Jumping in the air multiple times and then dairing is really punishable and obvious.

2. When you were techchasing Mk you went for dsmash which i dont think is a good option imo. I rather go for techchases especially if they have a tech like mk which i think is pretty easy to react to. If i was going to commit to a read wear they techroll towards me i would rather charge fsmash or SHNair.

3. When they DI up (after Dthrow)you can get a regrab or IDC at certain %. It depends on what you prefer.
Anyway thats just what i think. Really liked your metaknight tho.
 
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GuruKid

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Sep 14, 2007
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Looking at your footage against Falco you're using Dsmash more for option coverage, which is a solid option when you're unsure of your opponent's tech habits. But also consider that cape can play a similar role more reliably by canceling the cape into the attack right onto their tech position. If you can get a good feel for the movement + attack direction you can pretty much cover each tech option for most characters.

Agreed on the over-reliance of Dair, though. Despite its speed and great angle it's just not that great an approach option because it's easily outranged by most attacks, easily punished on shield and can be cc'd at mid percents. It's a good crossup on an opponent's shield but otherwise it doesn't get much mileage as an offensive tool. Try not to be obvious with it.

Your movement and platform game are really good though, and you played really well against the Mewtwo. I actually took some notes to help with my struggle in that matchup; notably the decision to strike to PS2 first game (something I'd think would be more in M2's favor but looking at how you took advantage of the low ceiling yourself makes me rethink that now). Good spacing and baiting as well but I noticed you don't IDC much for punishes or in neutral; IDC improves MK's effective range for punishes and neutral approaches by a really impressive amount that it makes your opponent respect more space. Not sure if it's just you still getting used to IDC's but with more smart use of that tech your already good baits will be even nastier.
 
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GuruKid

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Heading to Cerulean Cave Hitbox Arena in NJ with my crew today to trash the locals... and hopefully I can beat Emukiller this time!
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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What's a good use for RAR nair? Sometimes I can get gimps off it, but that's about it.
 

Chesstiger2612

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Edgeguarding mainly. Plus if you want to ledgecancel it and want go face the other direction for some reason. Nairs backward hitbox isn't better in any way and RAR always has always disadvantages such as less horizontal air control and slower startup.
 

9bit

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I just realized:

You know how on like Battlefield, you can do the reverse Shuttle Loop from under the stage and slide on one of the side platforms? Well, let's say you're about to do that recovery and the opponent sees that you're gonna, so they position themselves to punish it.

Well then you can just down-B to grab the ledge.

Mixups 2 strong
 
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Kappy

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Figured I should start using Smashboards again so I thought I'd pop in and say hi to all the MK players in PM! LOL.
 

GuruKid

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Thanks man, it was a tough set for sure. I get closer and closer to figuring out the MU but Frozen is just better than me at this point.
 

BPx

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what have you figured out? we don't have any good mew2s in the mw so i have no experience with it. i didn't get a chance to play m2k when he was here, i should have bugged him for friendlies.
 

GuruKid

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Well this Sunday at Nebulous I pulled the win against Frozen's Mewtwo in a really close set. Here's the vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WTEU-2qlug&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA

The MU is a little tough to explain in words so hopefully the video itself sheds some light. You just really, REALLY need to bait M2's approaches hard and pay attention to the M2's habits, especially when it comes to teleport (both in neutral and when you have your opponent above you). After you get passed the basic stuff like how to DI his moves, learning his range etc it just really comes down to taking advantage of MK's superior movement to punish M2's mistakes hard... like punishing teleports with Nair/Bair or most whiffed attacks with IDC (really important tool overall).

Never got to beat Emu's M2 in 3.0, sadly... Hopefully he'll be more manageable in 3.5 lol
 
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9bit

BRoomer
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Who has time to make a new thread? Not this guy.

OK so if you don't know, the character pages on the official PM site have been updated a bit. Here is what is different about Meta Knight's page:
  • "Lastly, Down Aerial has been tweaked to have a higher knockback angle and more end lag...it won't be as useful as Neutral Aerial for edgeguarding opponents, but its still a great tool for controlling the space below him!"
    • RIP divekick. I don't know how I feel about this change. I'll have to see it in action, but I did actually really like his divekick d-air. Maybe they thought it was too good for getting out of combos and getting back to the ground, where Meta Knight dominates. Still, I'm going to have a blast figuring out new applications for this new (old) d-air!
  • "Shuttle Loop will now only go into a glide once per airstate, however...choose your recovery options carefully!"
    • I am totally fine with this. I was wondering how they were gonna handle nerfing his glide and I think this is a great fix. Now you might wanna save your Shuttle Loop recovery: start with tornado or something so in case you get hit out of it you can still Shuttle from far away.
  • "Dimensional Cape has a flexible range of uses for recovery, either by slipping past opponents, or delaying in the air. However, it will rob Meta Knight of all his jumps when used, so use it wisely."
    • This is probably the same, but I was wondering about the bolded part specifically. Did it used to be worded just like this? My concern is that now it takes all your jumps if you use it from the ground too, instead of just the air. Someone confirm pls?
Anyway I didn't notice any other changes to the page. WHATCHY'ALL THINK?
 
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AlmightySo

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Who has time to make a new thread? Not this guy.

OK so if you don't know, the character pages on the official PM site have been updated a bit. Here is what is different about Meta Knight's page:
  • "Lastly, Down Aerial has been tweaked to have a higher knockback angle and more end lag...it won't be as useful as Neutral Aerial for edgeguarding opponents, but its still a great tool for controlling the space below him!"
    • RIP divekick. I don't know how I feel about this change. I'll have to see it in action, but I did actually really like his divekick d-air. Maybe they thought it was too good for getting out of combos and getting back to the ground, where Meta Knight dominates. Still, I'm going to have a blast figuring out new applications for this new (old) d-air!
  • "Shuttle Loop will now only go into a glide once per airstate, however...choose your recovery options carefully!"
    • I am totally fine with this. I was wondering how they were gonna handle nerfing his glide and I think this is a great fix. Now you might wanna save your Shuttle Loop recovery: start with tornado or something so in case you get hit out of it you can still Shuttle from far away.
  • "Dimensional Cape has a flexible range of uses for recovery, either by slipping past opponents, or delaying in the air. However, it will rob Meta Knight of all his jumps when used, so use it wisely."
    • This is probably the same, but I was wondering about the bolded part specifically. Did it used to be worded just like this? My concern is that now it takes all your jumps if you use it from the ground too, instead of just the air. Someone confirm pls?
Anyway I didn't notice any other changes to the page. WHATCHY'ALL THINK?
I really like brawl dair but ill miss the drill. :[
 
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