Agree or disagree with the video? Tell us in the comments below! To learn more about Miis check out our articles by Mii experts on Brawler, Gunner, and Swordfighter.
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GimR: The Case For Legalizing "Custom Miis"
- Thread starter LiteralGrill
- Start date
Agree or disagree with the video? Tell us in the comments below! To learn more about Miis check out our articles by Mii experts on Brawler, Gunner, and Swordfighter.
Comments
In the case of the Miis, we the jury, find the defendant...
Love the point about items, I think it's a great way to handle this situation in the simplest, least-ambiguous way possible. Just like the rule is "items switch off," the rule for customs should be "customs switch off." (I think this also gets rid of equipment, and I think variable Mii sizes? Don't quote me on that though.)
D
As much as I want full customization of Miis to be legal, the community/TOs are too stubborn for it to ever realistically happen. The Mii players agreeing on a best set for each character would easily be the most viable option at the moment, I feel. For example, most Gunner players agree 3312 is the best moveset for Gunner, so that's the one that'll be used in tournaments. Both sides win in some capacity.
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If you pick a Mii with equipment on if the game the customs switch is off, the equipment will not come into effect.
I've faffed about with Gunner enough to know this.
As much as I don't want to, I think I have to agree...
Sizes are still available, but equipment will have no effect. Though it's looking like guest size, if anything.
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Everything GimR said is great and I 100% agree but just a small nitpick: custom moves were not a second thought, Sakurai intended to implement them already in 2012 as you can see in the Super Smash Bros Proposal and they were even 4 variations of the same special.
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I personally think that GimR is making a lot of solid points. If you switch the option off and still have the ability to ise custom moves in one way or another, you SHOULD!
Using the "items off" argument was also perfect. I mean, we turn them off, but any character who uses items in their moveset can still do so, so why can't we do that for customs?
Otherwise...
Using the "items off" argument was also perfect. I mean, we turn them off, but any character who uses items in their moveset can still do so, so why can't we do that for customs?
Otherwise...
...this idea could be the closest thing to Mii freedom, but then again, which moves are the best is subjective to the players and their playstyles, so it really wouldn't help as much as you guys think.
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The only reason TO's are stubborn is because other TO's aren't willing to try it.
#FriiTheMiis
Screw the miis, Im still waiting on that Istudying interview.
Setting up 3 differently sized Miis — one "optimal" for each Mii class — wouldn't take that long to do. I'm not saying we have to allow every player 30 minutes to build Iron Man in the Mii Maker, but it wouldn't be that hard for a TO to set up 3 differently sized Miis per system.
I want to see the best Mii players in the world bring their best possible games to the table.
I want to see the best Mii players in the world bring their best possible games to the table.
I'm glad a big Smasher on YT finally made a video supporting Miis. Especially after ESAM's video that was full of complete bologna and misinformation, really.
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That would make Miis more viable than their Guest 1111 form, but the thing is that we (or some of us) don't really care about the viability. What we want is to use our Miis like they were intended.
Bayonetta
I
I feel if we got full custom miis, that would bring in tons of arguments on custom builds on other characters. Not that I'm saying custom builds are bad, just... I guess tourneys would have people use only one(?) custom build throughout the whole competition.
Edit #1: quote messed up on my phone. Will fix shortly.
Edit #2: Fixed
I can agree with this point regarding a TO's unwillingness to change Mii rules. Also since no "small" tournament is willing to give them a shot, EVO 2016 will follow suit.
I suggest two solutions. Either EVO 2016 allow Mii's access to their full potential to expose Mii's to the national audience to lessen the fear and doubt they bring to the Smash 4 community. This could eventually lead to smaller tournaments gaining the confidence to allow unrestricted Mii's (moveset wise).
My 2nd option would be to have plenty of small tournaments allow the use of unrestricted Mii's (also moveset wise) instead of the few tournaments that go "under the radar" in online smash news that already have Mii's legalized with their uncapped movesets. In this scenario, by having a majority of competitive players already exposed to Mii's in their local scenes, they may be baffled when arriving to a tourney where Mii's are banned therefore persuading the particular TO to reconsider their bans.
In summary, either the leading tournaments that gains a lot of attention can be the ones to set the example and have everyone else follow suit; or the smaller tournaments that are the foundation of the Smash community and make up our voice, can be the ones to set change in motion and challenge the authority of those in position of power.
Althought the amount of players who play Mii fighters may be small and ever dwindling in numbers, the overwhelming majority of disgust expressed by many who may never touch aforementioned characters is probably (my opinion) what us in this predicament in the first place.
If this gets read, thanks for taking the time to gloss over my comment.
P.S: If only this could be applied to Palutena, but that is a discussion for another day.
Edit #3: If we were to include Palutena in this discussion, Gimir's last point regarding "only using characters allowed with customs turned off," would invalidate Palutena to her default specials but alas that is not what this thread is for and would cause an uproar not worth fighting for.
It's just my wishful thinking wanting to get this out since Gimir's video is posted here instead of making a separate thread for the minute subject and I feel that Gimir's point regarding Sakurai giving Mii fighters "special moves" rather than customs as defined by Gimir in the above video could also be applied to Palutena's case.
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I wish gimr didnt make such a good video so i could dislike it with a clean concience.
His points were still bad though
But not as bad as his tie.
His points were still bad though
But not as bad as his tie.
Customized Mii Fighters should be allowed, but GimR's argument for why is flawed.
GimR's argument:
1) (implicit) We ban custom moves because they are customized versions of moves.
2) "Mii Fighter Special Moves" are not "Custom Special Moves,"
2a) because they resemble totally different moves rather than modified/customized versions of moves
2b) because they do not share the criteria of having to be unlocked.
3) "Mii Fighter Special Moves" are not custom moves, so should not be banned.
Hole in argument:
1) Are custom moves banned because they are simply customized versions of moves?
Well, we ought to ask ourselves, why are custom moves not allowed?
What are the arguments?
a) perceived logistical problems.
b) 'players must work hard to unlock them all!'
c) some moves are seen as overpowered
d) 'spammable'
e) top level players expressed distaste at them, and people followed (despite obvious biases)
If we do ban customized moves arbitrarily, is it customized moves which people have problems with or customized character fighters?
Custom Mii Fighters should be legal, and that is because the main arguments against Custom moves in general are empty and flawed.
a) logistical problems can be easily prevented by simply one person with a 3ds, thanks to the custom moveset project.
b) players only need to unlock the custom moves they are going to use in order to practice using custom moves. You only might want your main's custom moves and possibly your secondary's. Moreover, what EVO 2015 demonstrated too well is you don't need any custom moves to participate when they are legal.
-- Difficulty at obtaining them is an argument which would apply much better towards the DLC stages and characters being banned, but we clearly don't care about that.
c) being overpowered is why we ban Sheik right? No? ok. This argument is pretty much the embodiment of cowardice.
d) spammable (ie. brain dead) has never been a criteria for banning. Very few custom moves are spammable in the first place.
e) Top level players--- the goal is winning. In this sense, they already have everything they want. If they can just keep everything the same, they can be in their top positions for the whole game's life. We should not see such biased people as leaders, and we should not trust their word/authority on controversial debates.
GimR's argument:
1) (implicit) We ban custom moves because they are customized versions of moves.
2) "Mii Fighter Special Moves" are not "Custom Special Moves,"
2a) because they resemble totally different moves rather than modified/customized versions of moves
2b) because they do not share the criteria of having to be unlocked.
3) "Mii Fighter Special Moves" are not custom moves, so should not be banned.
Hole in argument:
1) Are custom moves banned because they are simply customized versions of moves?
Well, we ought to ask ourselves, why are custom moves not allowed?
What are the arguments?
a) perceived logistical problems.
b) 'players must work hard to unlock them all!'
c) some moves are seen as overpowered
d) 'spammable'
e) top level players expressed distaste at them, and people followed (despite obvious biases)
If we do ban customized moves arbitrarily, is it customized moves which people have problems with or customized character fighters?
Custom Mii Fighters should be legal, and that is because the main arguments against Custom moves in general are empty and flawed.
a) logistical problems can be easily prevented by simply one person with a 3ds, thanks to the custom moveset project.
b) players only need to unlock the custom moves they are going to use in order to practice using custom moves. You only might want your main's custom moves and possibly your secondary's. Moreover, what EVO 2015 demonstrated too well is you don't need any custom moves to participate when they are legal.
-- Difficulty at obtaining them is an argument which would apply much better towards the DLC stages and characters being banned, but we clearly don't care about that.
c) being overpowered is why we ban Sheik right? No? ok. This argument is pretty much the embodiment of cowardice.
d) spammable (ie. brain dead) has never been a criteria for banning. Very few custom moves are spammable in the first place.
e) Top level players--- the goal is winning. In this sense, they already have everything they want. If they can just keep everything the same, they can be in their top positions for the whole game's life. We should not see such biased people as leaders, and we should not trust their word/authority on controversial debates.
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That's a better way to sum it up. You hit everything on the nail and even mentioned things people are afraid of making public knowledge due to fear of backlash. Glad to see you here
erico9001
.
Edit #1: As far as ending the legality discussion, I have to agree with
erico9001
on this. Justice should be properly served without a compromise that does more harm than good or else the vocal minority that oppose the flawed rules will never back down unless they can silence us all.
Edit #2: I don't believe everyone should have to have all custom moves unlocked on every system. It's true that the task will take forever.
[Pointless rant incoming]
It took me little over a month to get all custom moves on 3ds in classic 9.0 even with the home menu exploit(I blame duplicate moves of ones I already). Eventually I got tired of spending all day during a week grinding for moves that would scarcely pop up and then lose them to dying in classic mode. Instead if I got any new move during the first 2 levels I would suicide so I could keep my loot. I had to go on and off of playing smash 3ds, many times even taking a break from it for at least a week until I was rewarded with the game acknowledging my accomplishment. [End of pointless rant]
Anyway, there should be a few individuals that do have all customs unlocked on a 3ds. The excuse for not having customs moves by now is pretty flawed and it's the individuals fault for not taking the time to unlock them all. Of course starting to grind them now, before any tournament, or in the case said individual has no spare time will feel like a wasted effort.
As far as customs go they aren't being used in the first place so my point is null and void.
erico9001
.Edit #1: As far as ending the legality discussion, I have to agree with
erico9001
on this. Justice should be properly served without a compromise that does more harm than good or else the vocal minority that oppose the flawed rules will never back down unless they can silence us all.Edit #2: I don't believe everyone should have to have all custom moves unlocked on every system. It's true that the task will take forever.
[Pointless rant incoming]
It took me little over a month to get all custom moves on 3ds in classic 9.0 even with the home menu exploit(I blame duplicate moves of ones I already). Eventually I got tired of spending all day during a week grinding for moves that would scarcely pop up and then lose them to dying in classic mode. Instead if I got any new move during the first 2 levels I would suicide so I could keep my loot. I had to go on and off of playing smash 3ds, many times even taking a break from it for at least a week until I was rewarded with the game acknowledging my accomplishment. [End of pointless rant]
Anyway, there should be a few individuals that do have all customs unlocked on a 3ds. The excuse for not having customs moves by now is pretty flawed and it's the individuals fault for not taking the time to unlock them all. Of course starting to grind them now, before any tournament, or in the case said individual has no spare time will feel like a wasted effort.
As far as customs go they aren't being used in the first place so my point is null and void.
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I don't mean to be technical, but
even if we take any one of these arguments as true, Mii's don't fall under any of those categories besides the top level players one...
which means i think that even if we did agree with those points, Mii's should still be legal as they don't count. Gimr's case still stands, imo.
People are quick to complain and are happy if they can get rid of it without properly learning ways around considered OP tactics and grinding for in game content.
If we only consider top player input then the game could become potentially biased and narrow instead of using our brain to make our own decisions. Yes they have experience and knowledge to back up their claims but we can decide to. Just take their word with a grain of salt and apply it in a way that you understand it.
I swear i made it pretty clear I didn't agree with just trusting the word of the top players without any sort of input.
My point was that the only part that mii's fall under are some top players are against them getting it
which means even if we took the other arguments as true (as they have quite a bit more viability behind them, although I won't say how true or not true they are), it wouldn't matter. They should be allowed.
that wouldn't be GimR's case, that would be your own.
I agree that the points are neither correct for custom miis nor custom moves. I will admit they are wrong for slightly different reasons, and I should have probably gone into that.
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Ah, sorry for being so quick to defend, you basically rephrased our points. I did notice that you wanted them to be allowed but when I read it, to me it sounded like you were stating some potential rebuttal for the other side of the debate.
My bad.
That tie is an abomination.
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At least it isn't a piano key tie.
its fine, I messed up somewhat too. lol
Already written my thoughts on this on the actual video's comment section and I don't feel like repeating myself. I have some pretty significant issues with Gimr's arguments. No disrespect to the guy, but his logic makes no sense to me. Consistency is the key word for me here, and I'm sticking to that mentality and it's what motivates my perspective in this discussion. This discussion is becoming really tiresome, though.
On another note, have we actually had an article yet that supports other perspectives than 'legalize all Mii customs'? I feel like the recent stream of articles has been really hammering on that one perspective and ignoring the others.
And then this: '...a majority of discussions and polls have agreed that the 1-1-1-1 option currently used is not the best.' Reading the question in the poll ('With customs off, should Miis still be able to use their custom moves?') and looking at the answers... the answer 'No, 1-1-1-1 Movesets Only' got the most votes at 38% of votes, with 'Yes' sitting at 27.4%. Someone clarify for me if I'm misinterpreting here, but I don't see how this supports the author's claim.
Btw, just read the post GwJ linked to. I couldn't agree with it more, it hits the nail right on the head.
On another note, have we actually had an article yet that supports other perspectives than 'legalize all Mii customs'? I feel like the recent stream of articles has been really hammering on that one perspective and ignoring the others.
And then this: '...a majority of discussions and polls have agreed that the 1-1-1-1 option currently used is not the best.' Reading the question in the poll ('With customs off, should Miis still be able to use their custom moves?') and looking at the answers... the answer 'No, 1-1-1-1 Movesets Only' got the most votes at 38% of votes, with 'Yes' sitting at 27.4%. Someone clarify for me if I'm misinterpreting here, but I don't see how this supports the author's claim.
Btw, just read the post GwJ linked to. I couldn't agree with it more, it hits the nail right on the head.
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Quick question to fellow smashers, do you guys/gals believe that since the popular opinion is expressed by many smashers, top players, and those that support the opposite get bashed is the reason that changes to the rule-set are unlikely even with evidence stacked on both sides (flawed or one-sided)?
but Palutena
Sshhh.. it hurts, I know. I mentioned it in earlier post. Let's not start a riot here.
I've always been in favor of the use of Miis with alternative specials, but in my opinion in the competitive scene, to work properly, there would have to be imposed 2 rules before starting the matches: specify the weight and type of combination (1221 etc), so that the opponent has a notion on what he's dealing with allowing to plan the match up beforehand, otherwise the Mii player actually will start the match at advantage because of their unknown moveset. And in that sense it would apply even to Palutena too since the game brought with alternative specials already which means she is special and had extra work. Also she only breakes one only rule from Gimr's statement. This would only further enrich the meta game by adding new match ups.
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