Agree or disagree with the video? Tell us in the comments below! To learn more about Miis check out our articles by Mii experts on Brawler, Gunner, and Swordfighter.
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GimR: The Case For Legalizing "Custom Miis"
- Thread starter LiteralGrill
- Start date
Agree or disagree with the video? Tell us in the comments below! To learn more about Miis check out our articles by Mii experts on Brawler, Gunner, and Swordfighter.
Comments
Man GimR's big points are backed up by a Nintendo Direct video
Since the start of the video it shows he has a mundane argument one of those carefully picking and choosing wording to look at this glass of his half full
quick sum up is he thinks Mii customs should be legal cause they slip by the customs off setting
the video is way longer than it should be
Since the start of the video it shows he has a mundane argument one of those carefully picking and choosing wording to look at this glass of his half full
quick sum up is he thinks Mii customs should be legal cause they slip by the customs off setting
the video is way longer than it should be
Lol, true
Umm...as much as I like when people talk about how good it is for a community to be diverse, I kinda twitch when people say that the community is already past these problems...cos programs like smash sisters and articles like transcending boundaries are only happening now.
Dont wanna undermine all that hard work or pretend these arent still problems
Dont wanna undermine all that hard work or pretend these arent still problems
I find it amusing that PM, a modded version of Brawl made to play like a 15 year old GCN game, seemingly has more fanbase support than Miis do.
Personally I think full customs with a few bans on OP moves is perfectly doable but simply isn't what the playerbase is comfortable with. And until it is, much as I like Gunner and Brawler, I don't think they deserve this treatment. Either allow customs in general or don't, stop beating around the bush over what technically qualifies as customs.
And before anyone says customs are hard to get the Pokemon meta's been hacking tourney-quality Pokes for years because of how numbingly tedious it is to accomplish in-game. Getting customs will work if people really want it.
Personally I think full customs with a few bans on OP moves is perfectly doable but simply isn't what the playerbase is comfortable with. And until it is, much as I like Gunner and Brawler, I don't think they deserve this treatment. Either allow customs in general or don't, stop beating around the bush over what technically qualifies as customs.
And before anyone says customs are hard to get the Pokemon meta's been hacking tourney-quality Pokes for years because of how numbingly tedious it is to accomplish in-game. Getting customs will work if people really want it.
I see nothing unusual about a single character being less popular than an entire game.
#FreeCustoms
Question for the Mii Freedom crowd, why are you guys getting so hung up on how the devs see competitive smash? If we did everything the way sakurai intended we would only play on FD and miis would be banned (for glory ruleset).
Suck it up mii mains and learn to play under the same conditions as every other character. A lot of low tiers are worse than gunner, swordsman and arguably brawler on 1111 would gain a lot from customs (palutena comes to mind) you don't see them asking for their other moves. If they have to play 1111, its only fair miis should too.
Suck it up mii mains and learn to play under the same conditions as every other character. A lot of low tiers are worse than gunner, swordsman and arguably brawler on 1111 would gain a lot from customs (palutena comes to mind) you don't see them asking for their other moves. If they have to play 1111, its only fair miis should too.
They dont pull out items, what they pull out can never be randomly spawned (except for stuff like bananas and when Peach randomly pulls actual items), its apart of their moveset
And Im disgusted how everyone is eating up these arguements of "developers intent", have you guys not seen what the developers actually intended Smash to be like? Frankly its pretty gross to just pick and choose when the developer is right just to defend Miis
So lets go back to the items now yeah? They arent defined as items in the game. And Gimr defenders claim that whatever the game "says" is 100% truth and must be complied with, so...
Mii specials? not listed as customs, not customs (according to Gimr's side)
Peach turnips? not listed as item.... BUT ITS AN ITEM FOR SOME REASON??? HUH??? YOU ARE PUTTING THIS ON THE SAME TIER AS ****ING POKEBALLS AND KOOPA SHELLS NOW???
Im gonna agree with this twitlonger here: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1socre1
The whole argument doesnt seem fair. Its like it was made for bending the rules to make it sound correct for Miis to be lagal. Not looking at data, information, answering both sides of the arguement, and then coming to a conclusion. Its like he made the conclusion first and then wrote the rest.
Im so sick of arguing about Miis and stages but the people blindly following Gimr's flawed argument kind of annoyed me so there you go
PS gonna also agree with Esam here. Sick and tired of all the Mii whiners saying "FULL CUSTOM OR BAN" when we're trying to come to a sound compromise here. Yeah, **** it, lets just ban them then.
And Im disgusted how everyone is eating up these arguements of "developers intent", have you guys not seen what the developers actually intended Smash to be like? Frankly its pretty gross to just pick and choose when the developer is right just to defend Miis
So lets go back to the items now yeah? They arent defined as items in the game. And Gimr defenders claim that whatever the game "says" is 100% truth and must be complied with, so...
Mii specials? not listed as customs, not customs (according to Gimr's side)
Peach turnips? not listed as item.... BUT ITS AN ITEM FOR SOME REASON??? HUH??? YOU ARE PUTTING THIS ON THE SAME TIER AS ****ING POKEBALLS AND KOOPA SHELLS NOW???
Im gonna agree with this twitlonger here: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1socre1
The whole argument doesnt seem fair. Its like it was made for bending the rules to make it sound correct for Miis to be lagal. Not looking at data, information, answering both sides of the arguement, and then coming to a conclusion. Its like he made the conclusion first and then wrote the rest.
Im so sick of arguing about Miis and stages but the people blindly following Gimr's flawed argument kind of annoyed me so there you go
PS gonna also agree with Esam here. Sick and tired of all the Mii whiners saying "FULL CUSTOM OR BAN" when we're trying to come to a sound compromise here. Yeah, **** it, lets just ban them then.
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It was on purpose but my argument for her isn't as Strong
#1 reason for worry and knee jerk reactions: helicopter kick
thing no one ever questions or considers similar in any way: Boost kick
thing no one ever questions or considers similar in any way: Boost kick
Most of us Mii mains just want to play on their mains like they were intended. Is it too much to ask? Also it isn't a compromise if 1 side disagrees.
Also we Mii mains are so tired of people being stubborn and close minded. Let's just ban every FLUDDing thing. Maybe that will please you.
Mii customs are a form of custom that can be used when customs are turned off. They're the exception to the rule.
Peach turnips (and other character-spawned items) are a type of item that can be used when items are turned off. They're the exception to the rule.
I don't see what differentiates turnips from other items (other than the fact that they're produced by a character). They behave like items, use the same sound effect as items, fit the definition of "item" as "an object that fighters can pick up and use"... The only thing differentiating them beyond how they're summoned is their physics, but items vary widely in this regard anyway.
Either way, though, turnips are quite irrelevant when Diddy's bananas already put a massive hole in your argument.
Yesss^, plus we wouldn't ever talk about how people have good ITEM "games"/playstyles/technique with their characters. Like Link, Tink, Diddy, ROB, Jr. mains, etc if they didn't have an item to use.
I wouldn't say they're any faster than setting up a name and changing a couple of buttons. Also, given that a large majority of players will use a custom control scheme as well, they're going to take even longer.
There is also the logistical problem of when and how the Miis should be set up. There are three time frames in which the Miis could be set up:
- During the match (at character pick, as and when needed)
- Before a match begins
- Before the Tournament Starts
- This generates unfair counterpicking on either the Mii user or other player's behalf. If the Mii user sets up his Mii first, his opponent has a lot of time to decide on a counterpick based on the Mii's moveset. If the Mii user picks second he can generate a Mii to specifically counterpick the opponent's character selection.
- This bleeds in slightly to point one, as your opponent has plenty of time to counterpick each Mii. Then if during the match you decide you want a specific Mii you didn't make at the start, what happens then? Can you generate a new one mid match or do you have to stick with what you have?
- This would require a lot of coordination and effort on the TO and Setup providers parts, as they would have to capture the details of all the possible Mii combinations people want to use and set them up on every console. This could probably be circumvented by having a Mii of every possible combination, but that might not be ideal due to time, effort and space constraints. This is a lot of time and effort which TOs would simply rather do without.
I'm not really "Anti Mii" as much as what i'm saying sounds like I am, but the ability to use Miis really needs to be implemented in a way that is fair to both Mii users and non Mii users, doesn't slow down the running of tournaments, requires little to no effort to enforce and doesn't create entry barriers by adding to the complexity of the game.
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While all of Gimr's point are very logical and reasonable on Mii Fighter Customs, there are still other things to note like the size of the Mii Fighters. This is another pretty debated topic on Mii's, but in all honesty it's easily fixable. Just go to the Mii Maker, use the default Mii, make it small as possible and large as possible. And you only have to do it once for the 2 different Mii sizes, but it'd be best to do this before a tournament uses said Wii U. While I can't imagine the large Mii to ever be used in favor of the small/medium sizes, it could be possible that a player likes to use that customization. Even still the main argument is whether or not Mii's should be allowed any other sizes other than the Guest Mii's during the customization. In my personal opinion I don't find it that much of an issue, but it's obvious that TO's and other players are against this extent of customization.
I would say though that we should finish the debate on custom moves before going full blown into sizes and other issues. It's best to take this argument one step at time in order to avoid completely exploding the debate.
I would say though that we should finish the debate on custom moves before going full blown into sizes and other issues. It's best to take this argument one step at time in order to avoid completely exploding the debate.
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Ugh, hit reply instead of edit. My b.
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"The end times are approaching! The world is coming to an end! If we allow the god awful miis to have things I can't have then they will take over the entire meta and destroy all the hard work the brawl players have done for smash 4 and we smash 4 players will have to pick up the slack! The rapture is upon us! If Mii Gunner gets his set up 3-3-2-1 or Sword Fighters 1-1-1-2, oh no its Brawl Meta Knight all over again! matches will take longer to start because they're too busy making a Mii and I'm doing handwarmers for 5 minutes after each match, and talking with my coach for twenty. Mii players are unfair because they want their completely different customs, and I main Paluds and Rosa, our customs are completely different too! I want the privilege of having customs too. Ooh the end is here if I don't get to have what I want or no one gets it!"
This is what I gathered seeing comments. I've said it before. This discussion and debates with Miis is apparently some horrifying doomsday that will descend upon the smash 4 community. If Miis were to get their customs then its Brawl Meta Knight 3 stock nonsense all over again, and people too scared to step out of their comfort zone. On both sides, why do you honestly care about Miis getting one thing that probably won't help them defeat the $5.99 crew? Smash 4 became basically a typical gamer's fear of games they enjoy, it became pay to win.
Now you can throw your hands up, disagree, get mad, throw fits on social media and smashboards about why everyone is wrong and you're right about miis, you're fine to do so. For us as Competitive Players we have to test, we have to try, we have to see if doing X will cause something negative to Y. We can't go on our hunches or strong feelings about this, its just like the stages we ban, its just like the items we've been banned, its like the customs we banned. We tested them, and we saw what happened and acted accordingly.
I say allow them, lets see what Mii players can do at their full optimal potential and power in Majors like EVO. You can not like it, that's fine, but for us to create an optimal environment so everyone can hop in and not struggle, we have to do this, better to do this now and not 3 years later. If Miis are a problem (somehow) with their customs, then we go back to the cookie cutter 1, if there is no problem then allow it, or simply softban Mii customs via agreement by players.
This is what I gathered seeing comments. I've said it before. This discussion and debates with Miis is apparently some horrifying doomsday that will descend upon the smash 4 community. If Miis were to get their customs then its Brawl Meta Knight 3 stock nonsense all over again, and people too scared to step out of their comfort zone. On both sides, why do you honestly care about Miis getting one thing that probably won't help them defeat the $5.99 crew? Smash 4 became basically a typical gamer's fear of games they enjoy, it became pay to win.
Now you can throw your hands up, disagree, get mad, throw fits on social media and smashboards about why everyone is wrong and you're right about miis, you're fine to do so. For us as Competitive Players we have to test, we have to try, we have to see if doing X will cause something negative to Y. We can't go on our hunches or strong feelings about this, its just like the stages we ban, its just like the items we've been banned, its like the customs we banned. We tested them, and we saw what happened and acted accordingly.
I say allow them, lets see what Mii players can do at their full optimal potential and power in Majors like EVO. You can not like it, that's fine, but for us to create an optimal environment so everyone can hop in and not struggle, we have to do this, better to do this now and not 3 years later. If Miis are a problem (somehow) with their customs, then we go back to the cookie cutter 1, if there is no problem then allow it, or simply softban Mii customs via agreement by players.
My main problem with this whole argument is that Gimr backs his whole argument with "Sakurai intended" which competitive play already goes against what Sakurai "intended" especially melee. Smash 4 has shown light on the competitive community a bit more with things like omega stages and for glory. Regardless of how often either of these things are used, and what the latter has devolved into, these things were developed for the competitive audience. What is not allowed on FG? Miis. Granted I would like for this whole debacle to end and at the end of the day Mii players do deserve the rights of their characters.
Bruh, stop making sense. This is smashboards.
Strawman much? I dont know what thread your looking at, but no one has responded like its "the end of smash if we allow miis with customs". there is only maybe two of us on here that disagree with you and the rest of this thread has basically amounted to the smashboards monthly mii freedom circle-jerk.
You seem misinformed on why a few of us want miis with 1,1,1,1 only. I dont think that anybody believes that miis customs are broken or OP. It comes down to the fact that every other character regardless of their viability has to use 1,1,1,1. Why should the miis get their extra specials, but not other low tiers like palutena gannondorf and others?
I can already hear people typing that tired out response of "BUT GUISE MIIS CAN YUSE CUSTUMS WITH CUSTUM TOGGL OFF!!!1" My response is so what? Who cares what the devs intentions were for the mii's customs? They havent shown there competent at building a viable tournament atmosphere (See For Glory, Tournament Mode) and nobody pro customs has tried to explain why we should care about the devs ideas on customs and the mii fighter. So even if the devs intended the mii fighters to be played with all of their customs, it doesn't matter, it is still unfair to every other character who gains a lot from customs, to allow miis to use anything besides 1,1,1,1.
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That's me!
And they're right. The first half of that post deconstructs GimR's video, due to the weak arguements made (Sakurai ashamed of a game feature? Come on.). But as I built my initial counter argument, it turned back around as an alternate way of arguing in favor of the Mii Fighters.
In effect the argument is as follows: the community lacks a sufficiently specified definition for "custom moves," as evidenced by our constant infighting. If we as a community are failing to generate a satisfactory definition, we must look to other resources.
Using Nintendo directs, smash websites, and other videos, definitions were coined. "Special Moves" are a general class of move which are executed by tilting the control stick or circle pad in a direction (or neutral) while pressing the b button (or an equivalent). "Custom Moves" are unlockable variations on a character's special moves. In at least the sources, the Mii Fighters and Palutena's full interchangeable move sets are all referred to as "special moves."
If we are aiming to be competitively equal, and have decided to ban custom moves, it is most fair to allow all characters to have their special moves made available to them. This includes the Mii Fighters and Palutena.
Additionally, to those that think that counter picking moves is unfair, I ask: why?
If I win my first match as Zero Suit Samus, my main and only character, over a Mii Fighter then a counter pick sequence might look like this: I ban Lylat, they choose Town and City (ha, I wish), I chose ZSS, they choose Pikachu. (As a free action, I weep)
In a counter pick scenario, I'm already locked in and they are free to do as they wish. In this scenario, they definitely make the most of that choice and pick a great counterpick to my character. How is that any worse than changing a single move? I would argue: it's not.
And for completions sake, if I lost that first match and they changed nove sets, they are locked in after they pick. I could pull out a super secret ultimate Shulk and they would have to stay with the move set they thought would best counter ZSS.
Anyways. There are my two and a half cents.
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It gets rid of neither but I still agree with you
Lets be real. The reason they are banned is because of helicopter kick and small Mii Brawler
Part of the argument that I tried to make at least, was that mii fighters are created characters. Not just 3 seperate slots. I don't wanna bother debating about their sizes at the moment, I think regular is fine. The thing is that Miis have to be made. Which means that each individual Mii has it's own set made for it, whatever combination of specials it may be made with. Each Mii fighter is a created character to be whatever you want it to be. And since it does not matter whether customs are on or not, furthers the fact that they can each act as seperate unique characters, despite mostly acting like clones within each class of character. It's like an RPG character creation for Miis. You get to pick what skills they have. I believe at the very least, the community can come to an agreement on which organized sets should be made for tournaments. or just one optimized set as a compromise.
Okay, we can be real. Why did you say "Let's be real." and then immediately be completely fake right after, though?
OBJECTION
Couldn't his "unlock" argument be applied to unlockable characters/stages/doc? Feel like that was unnecessary to bring up seeing how that one tourney in 2015 had like 1k entrants for a customs on tourney and it didn't seem like a problem then.
I do think they should be allowed because of other points, just have a standard size/weight we can all agree on. Don't see brawler's kick being a problem as much jankier KO setups exist in the game
I do think they should be allowed because of other points, just have a standard size/weight we can all agree on. Don't see brawler's kick being a problem as much jankier KO setups exist in the game
Im strictly speaking about by Gimr's logic here. Doesnt matter if they have numbers assigned to them (like all customs) and must be setup through the custom menu (not the same as the other characters' custom submenus but you still have to click on the custom menu) and are interchangeable between each other like customs and are similar to Palu's customs (auto unlocked + not derivatives). The game doesnt "SAY" theyre customs, so theyre not customs (he just calls them Mii specials or something).
The game doesnt "SAY" turnips, gyros, Link bombs, metal blade, or Pac fruits are items, so theyre not items (by Gimr's logic).
I'll give you a point with stuff like the random item pulls (Peach), bananas, and random hammer food (GW) but at least you can argue those are an unchangeable part of the character (with customs off anyway) that are undoubtedly apart of their default moveset.
Miis dont have default specials, they just have 1111s, and since everyone else uses 1111 thats what we've been assigning to Miis.
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Because the hate was real for the character
Could not quite figure out how to phrase it correctly so thank you.
There is so much wrong in here and I was going to write why, but others have already proven everything you said was false.
You may try to write back and argue but hopefully this can at least convince you (for the time constraints at least) that you are indeed wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rRLERdIDMA
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/51806483 skip to 1:10
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Yo, no problem. :D
As someone who hates the inclusion of Miis, but has Palutena down as my favorite character in the game, I would only be okay if Palutena gets her customs as well.
Well you're very clearly biased so that opinion can't really mean much to anyone.
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It gets rid of equipment but not sizes
This is the second time someone has said that. Why do you believe that? The Mii Fighters aren't broken, learn to SDI. That's literally nobody's argument against Mii Fighters. (Not that there is much of one, anyways.)
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Probably just joking but on the off chance he isn't I'm guessing ZSS main.
Ok, it works quicker in practice than I had thought. I was unaware of said videos so thanks for showing them to me.
Generally speaking, so long as Miis can be implemented in a way that doesn't take up a lot of time, is fair to both Mii users and Non Mii users and is relatively easy to enforce, there shouldn't be a problem with Miis.
Honestly this may also convince you otherwise. #feelbadforthemiis
Seriously though even with customs they just.....I'll let you watch.
Not that I could do any better seeing as how I would get JV3'd but still.
http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league/v/52580871
for exact match https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo1jYCe8L1M if you don't feel like watching all of pools, although I recommend it because it was amazing.
Seriously though even with customs they just.....I'll let you watch.
Not that I could do any better seeing as how I would get JV3'd but still.
http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league/v/52580871
for exact match https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo1jYCe8L1M if you don't feel like watching all of pools, although I recommend it because it was amazing.