Getting juggled in the air? IFHS is your answer.

[Zanthos25]

I'll rest my case for now. Flashy way of avoiding attacks. If you do everything the same, your opponent will come to expect it. A lot of Brawl is just about mindgames after all.

Why would a Falco half-circle jump his lasers? Why not just perform them normally? It's a similar case.

IFHS may be a gimmicky "tech" but it's applications hanging on the edge shouldn't be ignored.

EDIT:
Now view this as a mindgame with proper spacing. First off, we know Metaknight's Shuttle Loop eats through Falco's shine, so if he is in half-circle distance of you with range to connect it, its not smart to use this. Imagine if an opponent will approach you EVERYTIME in an attempt to reach you before the shine's lag runs out. You have just read into your opponent and their tactics.

If they rush you and misjudge the frame on which you are able to airdodge after the shine's lag, and you punish them as a result, you have the advantage. The opponent will then be forced to think, "Should I rush him in an attempt to reach him before the lag of shine runs out or stay put?".

If you keep the opponent guessing, you win.

 

[erick gm14]

this makes falco certainly DI around better.. good find! ESPECIALLy against MKs.. ill test this out..

-KID

 

[GMo]

Appreciate the enthusiasm. I'm eager to see where this goes.

Edit: Mind explaining how much this alters Falco's trajectory/di in the air?

 

[Teran]

Suffering from impotence? Can't get a date? Do you suffer from AIDs? If so, IFHS is the thing for you!

Lol, I'll check it out though. Tbh, I've personally always preferred the air liked the shine, it's nice to see someone have so much faith in this move and milk the **** out of it.

 

[Zanthos25]

Suffering from impotence? Can't get a date? Do you suffer from AIDs? If so, IFHS is the thing for you!

Lol, I'll check it out though. Tbh, I've personally always preferred the air liked the shine, it's nice to see someone have so much faith in this move and milk the **** out of it.

Heh, dude. Don't tell me about it. I've been unemployed for the past 7 months almost. Had to find a way to occupy my time somehow.

So what do you think? Funny thing is, I was just beating up Meta and I thought...why run in to this tornado when I can just avoid. That's when I got to thinking...

 

[J4pu]

hmm, yea, this is terribly stupid.

do something useful like collecting data on already known and useful things rather than try to make useless things look useful.

If you think that using shine in the air gives you extra aerial momentum, I'm going to say you're wrong and that it's just an illusion due to the shine moving one way and you moving the other, but don't take my word for it, go do some legitimate testing and prove me wrong. running away from a computer proves nothing don't ever try to use something stupid like that again to prove your point or else... i'll show up and tell you how dumb you are again.

if you still don't understand why i don't think this is helpful, then please explain to me (throughout that whole video) when jumping with the shine was better than it would have been to jump without doing anything. all you're doing by using shine is giving the opponent (a CPU in this case which is why you didn't pay for it) a chance to punish you while you can't do anything because you have to wait for the long-a$$ cooldown lag that shine has.

 

[Zanthos25]

Hey...J4pu. I have a theory in life. Don't hate.

The reason why no one tested this before is because they were all negative and pessimistic...oh shine is weak...too much lag!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The fact that it is a computer is irrelevant. I was merely showing everyone that you can avoid some aerial barrages and get back to the ground safely (i.e. Metaknight's Tornado setup's etc.)

Look J4pu...I don't play competitively, so I admit that your a better player than me and have been around smashboards much longer. But I simply studied Falco's I have seen in matches over the Internet and asked myself..."Why arent' they doing this?". This prompted me to test this in the first place.

 

[pure_awesome]

Zan, Falco's Shine doesn't alter his aerial speed or give him any greater control over his aerial momentum than his normal double-jump would.

Therefore, using the IFHS in this situation accomplishes nothing that Falco's normal double-jump wouldn't do, except put Falco in unnecessary Shine-lag.

Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but this won't go very far as is.

 

[erick gm14]

jp4u's right in the fact hes open.. i notice f-air has the same feeling... try two hops to f-air and di back.. idk thats just me.. >_>

 

[J4pu]

First of all, I'm not that good of a player, I'm more theory than play-skill

secondly, how can you promote this strategy when you still haven't offered answers to my legitimate questions about why this is good?
granted I asked them in a "hateful" way but if you answer them in a way that proves your point I will be forced to apologize and admit that you were right from the beginning.

So here are the questions again:
A) if you think that shine increases your aerial control/momentum then give a video that shows this.
{here's how you would do that:
1. walk to the edge of FD so that you are doing that almost falling animation
2. Jump and immediately start holding backwards
3. Hold backwards the whole jump until right before you touch the ground
4. See where you land
5. Do step 1 again
6. Jump and use shine and start holding backwards all at the same time
7. Hold backwards the whole jump until right before you touch the ground
8. See where you land this time
9. compare the 2 landing spots to see which one went further or if they were the same
10. Record and upload to youtube and show it to everyone}

B) explain (throughout that whole video) when jumping with the shine would be better than it would have been to jump without doing anything.
-things to keep in mind: when you jump without doing anything you can react to what your opponent does making it possible to avoid attacks by air-dodging or retaliate when they mess up their spacing by attacking them back

On a final note, I don't just go around "hating on" everybody's new ideas, I actually spent about 2-3 hours getting data for the recent Dthrow>Jab>LL discovery. When an idea is good, and sometimes when it has potential to be good (sometimes I don't notice it) I will support it.

 

[Zanthos25]

Zan, Falco's Shine doesn't alter his aerial speed or give him any greater control over his aerial momentum than his normal double-jump would.

Therefore, using the IFHS in this situation accomplishes nothing that Falco's normal double-jump wouldn't do, except put Falco in unnecessary Shine-lag.

Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but this won't go very far as is.

Pure_awesome...have you tested this? If you have, then maybe you know something that I don't. Otherwise, it needs to be tested.

There is no way I can accomplish all in that video using simply double jumping. Using it to jump over opponents is not that useful I agree. However, if you are falling and the opponent is waiting for you on the ground...

I'm talking about performing this while falling to avoid an opponent in waiting on the ground...the lag of shine runs out before you hit the ground.

Metaknight is waiting for you to return to the ground to mindgame you into a tornado, you use this and it momentum push to avoid.

Can you double jump horizontally? I don't think so. That's the whole application of this.

 

[pure_awesome]

Yes, I've tested it. Falco's aerial momentum is the exact same, whether he uses the Shine or not. I tested this when the game first game out, in an attempt to improve Falco's recovery.

There's no "momentum push". It may look that way because of the way Falco kicks the Shine out, but it's not there. There's no additional horizontal distance gained.

Meaning if there's a character waiting on the ground and you're in the air... yes, you can IFHS to get away. But it doesn't accomplish anything that wouldn't have been accomplished by simply double-jumping.

Sorry, but it's just not what you think it is.



EDIT: J4pu, chill.

 

[Zanthos25]

Thanks for clearing up the momentum push idea pure_awesome. However, I'm talking about avoiding attacks not additional ground gained. I'm talking about the number of frames it takes to move a horizontal distance using IFHS versus normal double jump avoiding.

Yes the shine has lag frames, but you don't spam it in front of an opponent. For instance, if your falling you fake it so a opponent thinks to chase after you with an aerial. If you are pushing away, how is an opponent going to reach you before the airdodge with proper spacing?

If anything you are baiting you opponent to approach you because of the lag frames and airdodge right before they reach you.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nvm, editted this reply.

 

[pure_awesome]

Logically, if it took less frames to travel the same horizontal distance, then more horizontal distance would be covered.

Compare moving .5 feet per frame vers 2 feet per frame. Since the jump always lasts the same amount of frames on a flat stage (say 100 or something, that's probably way off) then one would travel 50 feet, the other would travel 200 feet.

EDIT: Or, just watch the start of this video.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=yuPZEjBSiOU

 

[J4pu]

Wait, so the whole point of this is supposed to be baiting?
and if you said baiting so that you can air-dodge like i think you just did, you don't understand the goal of baiting

EDIT: J4pu, chill.

did I appear worked up?
I was merely giving him a way to prove his point or fail to prove his point that this is useful so this whole thing could be done with.
I guess I was getting kind of defensive at the end of my last post, but not that much.

 

[pure_awesome]

People become less rational when they are emotional. It's safe to assume that calling someone's idea "terribly stupid" will incite an emotional response.

Therefore, calling someone's idea "terribly stupid" will make them less rational.

Someone who is not rational is very hard to convince that they are being tricked by their eyes into believing something is happening when it's not, or that a particular action is not as useful as they would think.

Everyone stays nice to each other, Falco boards stay nice and clean and rational, and everyone learns a little something.


G.I. JOOOOOOEEEEEEEE.


EDIT: Anyway, here's a video showing what we're talking about, Zan. As you can see, there's no difference between the distances achieved by the various jump methods.

I was also able to evade Metaknight in the same fashion as you, while still maintaining the option to Phantasm away if the pressure go too much, counter with a Dair, AD at any time, etc.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=yuPZEjBSiOU

 

[Zanthos25]

I'll rest my case for now. Flashy way of avoiding attacks. If you do everything the same, your opponent will come to expect it. A lot of Brawl is just about mindgames after all.

Why would a Falco half-circle jump his lasers? Why not just perform them normally? It's a similar case.

IFHS may be a gimmicky "tech" but it's applications hanging on the edge shouldn't be ignored.

 

[J4pu]

People become less rational when they are emotional. It's safe to assume that calling someone's idea "terribly stupid" will incite an emotional response.

Therefore, calling someone's idea "terribly stupid" will make them less rational.

Someone who is not rational is very hard to convince that they are being tricked by their eyes into believing something is happening when it's not, or that a particular action is not as useful as they would think.

Everyone stays nice to each other, Falco boards stay nice and clean and rational, and everyone learns a little something.


G.I. JOOOOOOEEEEEEEE.

oh, you meant that post, yea I was insulting him a bit there, I have a hard time breaking that habit, you've been around long enough to know that.

you have a good point though, i'll try that out
maybe we should just allow ignorant people to be ignorant and just ignore them.

 

[pure_awesome]

No worries, J4pu, I know the instinct is there.

Why would a Falco half-circle jump his lasers? Why not just perform them normally? It's a similar case.

Spacing.

IFHS may be a gimmicky "tech" but it's applications hanging on the edge shouldn't be ignored.

Hey now, don't get me wrong. I like LHShine. Lots of Falcos use it.


The problem with this as a mindgame is that Falco can't really follow up on it. It's like missing an L-Cancel is Melee.

You might trick your opponent but... then what? His mind will recover faster than your character. He'll just be like:

"What the hell, he shined? Wierd... well, better keep attacking."

Better to just DoubleJump and keep all your options open.

 

[NJzFinest]

What is IFHS?

 

[zamz]

Instant Full-Hopped Shine.

 

[NJzFinest]

.. .

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

.. .

postcount much? skills bro.

 

[J4pu]

parkour is awesome, mirror's edge is a terrible idea for a game.

 

[Blad01]

Meaning if there's a character waiting on the ground and you're in the air... yes, you can IFHS to get away. But it doesn't accomplish anything that wouldn't have been accomplished by simply double-jumping.

IFHS doesn't waste your second jump, allows you to DJ before touching the ground, or attacking, and cover's a large range on Falco's front, while you're retreating, so that's basically safe.

So yeah, i find IFHS to be useful in particular situations

 

[NJzFinest]

postcount much? skills bro.

NJzFinest
Posts Per Day: 4.35

looks reasonable

Anyways, I wanted to know what the term was, and once I did, I thought it was pretty ******** but instead of flaming, I decided to respond in a "calm" way where it was obvious enough to think I thought the term = stupid. Considering that, I actually contributed more then you have haha.

Most of my post count is due to countless agruments/flaming and the fact I've been here for years.

Last but not least, I also like to mindgame people, making to think how I'm able to own the "10 characters limit".

parkour is awesome, mirror's edge is a terrible idea for a game.

Yes, parkour is awesome. Cept, I dropped a free running course to continue breakdancing, that's more awesome
And, I thought it was a good idea. Just... to ahead of it's time... maybe?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

NJzFinest
Posts Per Day: 4.35

looks reasonable

Anyways, I wanted to know what the term was, and once I did, I thought it was pretty ******** but instead of flaming, I decided to respond in a "calm" way where it was obvious enough to think I thought the term = stupid. Considering that, I actually contributed more then you have haha.

how did you contribute more than me by saying just '...', it should be on equal terms. trufax.

 

[NJzFinest]

Anyways, I wanted to know what the term was, and once I did, I thought it was pretty ******** but instead of flaming, I decided to respond in a "calm" way where it was obvious enough to think I thought the term = stupid. Considering that, I actually contributed more then you have haha.

^ I thought I already elaborated on the "..."

 

[Zanthos25]

The problem with this as a mindgame is that Falco can't really follow up on it. It's like missing an L-Cancel is Melee.

The problem using a missed L-Cancel as an example is that the player is on the ground and can easily be grabbed.

I admire you and all the work you've done with Falco pure_awesome, but, I just wanted to say this. Some things are deeper than they first seem, and in regards to performing this move, it's personal preference. It's either...I will perform this in certain situations when the time is right to mindgame my opponent, or I will neglect it as an option entirely.

Back to my half circle jump example...maybe some players can perform a retreating half circle jump faster (in fewer frames) than performing a normal retreating jump than a laser. Really you should use both otherwise the your opponent will always expect for example, "He's always going to half-circle jump here or SHDL here...".

Maybe you can cover the same distance horizontally in fewer frames double jumping (from a falling animation) normally, but I can't. The distance is small, but it's still there.

Now view this as a mindgame with proper spacing. First off, we know Metaknight's Shuttle Loop eats through Falco's shine, so if he is in half-circle distance of you with range to connect it, its not smart to use this. Imagine if an opponent will approach you EVERYTIME in an attempt to reach you before the shine's lag runs out. You have just read into your opponent and their tactics.

If they rush you and misjudge the frame on which you are able to airdodge after the shine's lag, and you punish them as a result, you have the advantage. The opponent will then be forced to think, "Should I rush him in an attempt to reach him before the lag of shine runs out or stay put?".

If you keep the opponent guessing, you win.

 

[Teran]

IFHS is really broken guys.
Now it's been banned, just our luck
*CG to spikes a Link*. Now THAT's innovation man.

 

[zamz]

postcount much? skills bro.

To be honest, "..." was exactly what I was thinking when I read this thread. It HAD to be said. I've spent some time jumping in the air and comparing it to a full-hopped shine. The main difference I've noticed is limited mobility while in shine mode. Why, exactly, would I want to LOWER my options in the air? If I'm shining, I'm not air-dodging nor am I attacking, effectively making me a helpless little birdy.

It's hard to pull off FH'd Fair without being punished...I can't imagine IFHS being any better.

Even IF there was a mindgame associated, the "lolol u totally didn't expect me to shine but I did and I'm actually safe now" mindgame...That would barely work once. And even then, I wouldn't hold my breath. If you can be safe with IFHS, then you would be safe without using any move at all.

The shine isn't going to stop someone from hurting you, nor is it going to stop them from waiting for your reflector to retreat before hurting you. You're effectively 100% susceptible from any attack below you or behind you or even above you, and it ruins your ability to DI effectively in the air. But worst of all, it bye's your air-dodge.

It looks cool, and might be nice to pull out in a match you'll win anyway. But that's about all I can give it =/

 

[Nexus Bond]

I was thinking that it might be like when Wolf uses his blaster when he fullhops and gets extra DI, which is useful for his approach and retreating options. I haven't tested, but it could be like that.

Oops, I didn't see that there were 3 pages of replies.
Please ignore this.
Sorry!

 

[Zanthos25]

Thanks for the constructive criticism everyone (no seriously). Something must be examined at all levels before final judgment comes across. We need criticism to grow and evaluate our ideas in a different light in mind of varying viewpoints.

I'm assuming people have already tested using normal Down-B high above the stage with its effects to returning to the stage quicker. Likewise, this has its pros and cons and should not be dismissed.

zams, we can alter our aerial trajectory more efficiently I think. For instance, if you want to shorten your distance (horizontally) that is traveled while double jumping it is easier to do. If you wanted to move the same distance horizontally as a normal double jump, you've got that too.

Secondly, we can airdodge before we hit the ground. You will get punished if your spacing is horrible due to the lag of shine, but that is known.

Also, I just wanted to mention that IFHS on the ground should not be dismissed as a retreating or advancing option either (to mix things up). Many of you seem to be under the notion that you are helpless in the air and can't do a thing. You can retreat with it and perform a retreating laser or aerial and even airdodge if the opponent rushes at you. If you are smart about it (proper spacing again), you won't get punished too often.

If this could theoretically see use at least once a match (or every few matches) to catch the opponent off guard, it has use. Period. Regardless of how significant or insignificant that may be.

 

[Hyo]

I support all new attempts at integrating the shine effectively into Falco's game. I really do.

The problem is, whenever I read about a shine technique (e.g. this one), I am filled with hope and expectations. Unfortunately, all these hopes are crushed when the unavoidable fact is realized: There is no way (other than jumping in water or on a spring), to cancel Falco's shine. It puts him in such a bad position if he whiffs, and the only time I've ever seen shine be put to good use ( I prefer ledge hopped lasers or phantasm over shine) is camping on JJ from the center island onto the right platform.

That being said, IFHS (sorry but I think this is pretty bad as well) is near useless to me. Like posted before, jumping around with shine is foolish, punishable, and predictable. The fact that it only trips people on occasion, barely scratches the enemy, and overall is bad just takes away from any positives.

I firmly believe shine has almost no use in Falco's arsenal. Much like Marth's dash attack or Wolf's nair, Falco's worst attack is shine (Firebird isn't an attack.)

 

[Zanthos25]

The reason I state it makes a good approach (non-spamming) is because Falco's F-air is so situational and has a small effective range.

This is slightly off topic in regards to getting juggled, but...why does no one use this when edgeguarding? It can surely catch some opponents off if timed properly. Now if you don't know what I'm talking about, I uploaded another vid. This type of edgeguarding is not too effective with people with fast recoveries with hitboxes (Falco, Wolf, Pikachu). However, I'm talking about if Metaknight of another character is stalling by hovering near the edge. I simply drop down and use IFHS and push my momentum back to the stage.

Later on in the video, I show Falco using IFHS to keep an opponent pressured getting up from the edge (namely their full jump get-up). Someone please tell me how an opponent is going to respond in time to punish you getting up from the edge if you push away using it.

Here's an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RN5Waa0tfk&feature=channel_page

Name another attack of Falco's that can safely edgeguard opponents below the stage without the use of Firebird or phantasm. There is none.

 

[Hyo]

I don't exactly see what you're achieving. You state that the use of IFHS is to hit "floating" opponents. This means that they have very good recoveries.

I ask then, what are you accomplishing with that? You certainly aren't edgeguarding them (as MK can make it back easy), and in the second part, you aren't really doing anything either. You're pushing them back slightly, and dealing (essentially) chip damage. This accomplishes nothing and puts you in a dangerous position. What if MK shuttle loops? What if they air dodge? There are so many ways to punish a move like that, and even if your opponent does get hit with it, there is a minimal gain on a huge risk.

It's simply not worth it.

 

[Zanthos25]

I appreciate your input, Hyo. I'm just saying this in general.

Someone uses a Down throw to Jab to LL in one video and people treat it like the next Holy Grail. Seriously. I admit IFHS is gimmicky and situational, but it is not flat out useless.

Oh well I give up. If anyone (especially someone with low post count and hardly and history at smashboards) presents something with Falco unknown or unused by the general community, prepare to get shot down.

 

[zamz]

...Keep in mind, just because something is "unknown or unused" doesn't mean it's automatically useful. It also doesn't mean it's automatically terrible. You've gotten a lot of us to actually test this out. Good job. That's something to be proud of. You've intrigued us enough for us to actually WANT this to be useful. The problem is, we can't find a use for it. There are better options all the way around. Although we've decided it isn't a good move, we've taken the time to at least consider it and that should be all you can expect.

You're not giving us credit. We praise things that ARE good. But that also means we're not going to sugar-coat what isn't good. It has nothing to do with your post count. You could have 5000 posts, and we'd still say this is largely useless. On the other hand, any move that can easily produce a Laser Lock IS something to be praised like the next holy grail.....

If you still disagree with us, get some videos up against good opponents. Go to tournaments and win. Prove that your Falco--when relying on this move--succeeds. Prove that this move is something we should all use.

Until then...

 

[Hyo]

I'll show them. I'll show ALL of them!