Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
It appears that you are using ad block :'(
Hey, we get it. However this website is run by and for the community... and it needs ads in order to keep running.
Please disable your adblock on Smashboards, or go premium to hide all advertisements and this notice. Alternatively, this ad may have just failed to load. Woops!
Firstly, there's a difference between surviving and thriving. Sure, the Melee cult has continued to persist, but have you looked at the average age of its player base? They just keep getting older and older because the Melee meta has mostly stagnated with the same 6 or 7 viable characters and the usual 20 or so pro players, making it hard to incentivize new blood to join the ranks. Unfortunately, game balance has nothing to do with Melee's persistence, it's the mechanical quirks of the game that skilled players have weaponized and refuse to give up for the sake of getting with the times. As far as overall game balance and mainstream visibility, Ultimate is still the vanguard of Smash.
Firstly, there's a difference between surviving and thriving. Sure, the Melee cult has continued to persist, but have you looked at the average age of its player base? They just keep getting older and older because the Melee meta has mostly stagnated with the same 6 or 7 viable characters and the usual 20 or so pro players, making it hard to incentivize new blood to join the ranks. Unfortunately, game balance has nothing to do with Melee's persistence, it's the mechanical quirks of the game that skilled players have weaponized and refuse to give up for the sake of getting with the times. As far as overall game balance and mainstream visibility, Ultimate is still the vanguard of Smash.
Good point. And if you wonder why the "cult part"... well I hate that fandom with a b-passion after some of them doxed me and went to give me death threats IRL
Good point. And if you wonder why the "cult part"... well I hate that fandom with a b-passion after some of them doxed me and went to give me death threats IRL
I mean, I don't refer to them as a cult because I have any kind of personal animosity towards them, but rather due to the fact that they are group of people that religiously cling to a 20-year old game simply because they either lack the skill to move on and/or because they can't escape the narcissism of their glory days. In other words, it's a bunch of 30+ yr-olds that would rather be a big fish in a tiny pond over testing their meddle in the ocean. I get that no other Smash game has quite managed to capture the same mechanical quirks, but when there's a game with over 3 times the roster, at least half of which are viable, way better graphics, smoothed out gameplay and a plethora of fun modes both on and offline, I really don't see of point of their puritanic elitism. Granted, to each their own, but still, it just comes off as stubborn vanity to me.
It's simple; roster isn't what they want. They want specific mechanics combined with the exact movesets. Nothing short of a straight port with new characters and nothing but slight minor changes will please them.
It's more nostalgia than anything. And that's fine. They can like what they want. I mean, one of my favorite games has gotten one remake at most, a spin-off, and an updated port. But I still love it. Sure, I'm extremely open to unique ideas with the IP, but I'm not open to a remake of the battle system at all. It works just as intended, etc.
It's the same situation here. Not everybody is willing to move to a new system. And that's okay. It's what they enjoy. I don't consider them really a cult either. Just fans who have a preference. Albeit, there are absolutely poor fans of any fandom, but they don't represent the whole. I mean, we knew that a long time ago, as well, since imagine how many people accused this fandom due to a few bad apples. There's honestly no reason to think it applies till all Melee fans. I love the old game too. it does stuff no other game does. Every single Smash game has its own bits and pieces that you can't replicate beyond a port with minor balance changes and only new content otherwise. It doesn't mean I would've like certain remade parts either. Trophies were a pain in the ass to get in Brawl, for instance. Not just the Boss ones, but in general. Smash Wii U has a pretty bleh Classic(though I'd still take it over Brawl's linear one, just barely). Brawl's Target Test variation was repetitive, boring, and had no pay off at all for how much you needed to do(Smash 3DS/Wii U at least let you get a Trophy or Custom move often per play, meaning it came with a little bit of something). Smash 64 has a tiny roster, though admittedly I still like it the most(I'd say the extreme slowness/lag at times is its big weakness. The roster is fine for the first game, respectively). Melee oddly is one game I have few complaints about; my only real issue is a bug in the US version where Sandbag can actually lock up if it goes out too far in Home Run Contest. Maybe Pichu's terribad Target Test too. Otherwise, I don't feel it has any clear problems overall. Just some games are better balanced, but that's not what I mean by what I find as a problematic design(that, and Meta Knight and Bayonetta were way worse as an issue. Albeit, 4 still had good balance generally).
I don't personally care about Melee, but I understand. Some people just like how some things 'feel', ya know? Melee is an extremely skill expressive game, moreso than any future Smash games tbh, and those guys like that. Likewise, for as great as Ultimate is, it's not a perfect game. The online is trash, and some people cannot stand the buffering system. Don't get me wrong, the character, stage, everything else selection is amazing, but content isn't what those kinda people want, it's mechanics that feel good to them. Ultimate's an amazing game, but it's not anywhere near as technically complex as Melee is, that's not even up for debate. That's not a bad thing, mind you.
The huge downside of that though, is the huge barrier of entry to newer players, of course. You have to learn these pretty difficult techs to 'git gud' at Melee, while other Smash games are much more pick up and play friendly. Of course, it's not as simple as that, but there's less mechanics overall in Ultimate to learn as opposed to Melee, which makes Ultimate infinitely more casual friendly, and, it's the newest Smash game, which makes it infinitely more accessible to the average person.
It's kinda like cars. Some people don't care about a model, since a car's a car, right? But some people will swear by a specific model since, to them, it 'feels' the best. Same with a lot of things tbh. I know for a fact that there's one brand of headphones I prefer above others simply because I like their sound quality and comfort more than other brands I've tried.
And let's not kid ourselves, outside of another massive community split like what happened between Melee and Brawl, a lot of the fanbase will jump ship to the next iteration of Smash even if there's a huge amount of cuts. The casual audience doesn't really care nearly anywhere as much as we do as long as it's 'new', and pros will go where the money is. If Ultimate isn't getting the streamer bux anymore, they'll swap. The most hardcore of hardcore will stay with Ultimate of course, but how many people do you see still playing Brawl or Smash 4 on streams? Barely any, I'd imagine. Pros and content creators go where the money is, and whenever the next Smash gets announced, they'll drop Ultimate like a rock, since that's where the money will be.
It's up to Ultimate's dedicated fambase to keep it relevant, much like Melee's fanbase, or else it'll suffer the fate of 64, Brawl, and 4.
A wise man once told me "People can play whatever they want, and they can hold tournaments when they please given there's both a playerbase and audience for it."
There's a reason people want MvC2 to be playable on modern systems and get excited at the rumours of a remaster. It's not a cult of washed out spoilsports who are scared of becoming suckier upon losing their wavedashing or whatever. They just really REALLY like the game. No different than how people may prefer classic Zelda games to BOTW even though BOTW is what everyone talks about, has the best mechanics and the best graphics.
It seems like when nobody has anything to say about Geno, the convo devolves into just bashing other stuff.
Also 64 has a little more of competitive audience then we're giving credit, it's just not mainstream as Melee and the current Smash game. Smash 64 Remix will probably bring a lot of interest to the 64 scene albeit modded.
A wise man once told me "People can play whatever they want, and they can hold tournaments when they please given there's both a playerbase and audience for it."
There's a reason people want MvC2 to be playable on modern systems and get excited at the rumours of a remaster. It's not a cult of washed out spoilsports who are scared of becoming suckier upon losing their wavedashing or whatever. They just really REALLY like the game. No different than how people may prefer classic Zelda games to BOTW even though BOTW is what everyone talks about, has the best mechanics and the best graphics.
It seems like when nobody has anything to say about Geno, the convo devolves into just bashing other stuff.
Also 64 has a little more of competitive audience then we're giving credit, it's just not mainstream as Melee and the current Smash game. Smash 64 Remix will probably bring a lot of interest to the 64 scene albeit modded.
This so much. People are allowed to like what they want to like without being judged or criticized for it and people who put down others for liking a game are arrogant, childish, and have waaaaaay too much of a need to feel superior to others to be able to participate in these kinds of conversations.
People can accuse us Genobros of being stuck in the past for liking a 25 year old game by the very same standards people are using to bash fans of other games here, and we'd do well to remember that.
This so much. People are allowed to like what they want to like without being judged or criticized for it and people who put down others for liking a game are arrogant, childish, and have waaaaaay too much of a need to feel superior to others to be able to participate in these kinds of conversations.
People can accuse us Genobros of being stuck in the past for liking a 25 year old game by the very same standards people are using to bash fans of other games here, and we'd do well to remember that.
I would know about being stuck in the past (waiting for new Paper Mario that uh... follows closer to 64). Although in all honesty, I don't think TOK looks bad. I think if TOK was what came out after SPM, it would be seen as an odd but okayish return to form whereas Sticker Star just ripped apart everything people loved about Paper Mario.
There's a reason people want MvC2 to be playable on modern systems and get excited at the rumours of a remaster. It's not a cult of washed out spoilsports who are scared of becoming suckier upon losing their wavedashing or whatever. They just really REALLY like the game. No different than how people may prefer classic Zelda games to BOTW even though BOTW is what everyone talks about, has the best mechanics and the best graphics.
You are allowed to prefer a game over another.. That´s not the problem. The problem arrives when their fanbase can´t stand critic to the point that they dox and death threats. There is a good reason why the rest of the FGC community downright celebrated when Melee wasn´t in EVO. The Melee fandom aren´t exactly a popular one among the fgc community
You are allowed to prefer a game over another.. That´s not the problem. The problem arrives when their fanbase can´t stand critic to the point that they dox and death threats. There is a good reason why the rest of the FGC community downright celebrated when Melee wasn´t in EVO. The Melee fandom aren´t exactly a popular one among the fgc community
FGC community hates all Smash because they don't think any of them are true fighting games. That's not exclusive to Melee. They just happen to be the biggest competitive Smash community and bear the brunt of the ire.
And I'm sorry you or others have had a poor experience and harmful experience with the community, but the actions of a few awful people don't represent the community as a whole. I could twist your language around and talk about the geno fandom the same way given the actions of a few of his fans but that would be reductive.
It's not that Melee fans can't handle criticism, it's just their priorities for what they want out of Smash are different than yours and when Nintendo themselves actively go against what the community wants, they're understandably upset. The fact of the matter is Melee does objectively allow for a greater freedom of movement, player expression, and combo potential. It doesn't matter how much of it was intentional, you can do things in Melee that you simply can't do in other Smash games. And that's something beautiful. They're not stuck in the past, they have a game they fell in love with. It's no different from people who prefer classic Paper Mario.
And look, Ultimate is my favorite and preferred Smash game for a variety of reasons, but I still respect the hell out of Melee and what the players have managed to do. Melee is sick, simple as that.
Hey, if people like watching the same 6 or 7 polygon figures bump into each other, all power to them. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug. Anywho, looking to the future, what kind of plans do people have, if any, to promote Geno in the next Smash (assuming he doesn’t miraculously get in as the last DLC)?
The thing with Melee compared to Ultimate is that Melee is one of those once in a life time kind of games that will probably never get that same kind of gameplay ever again. Ultimate is never going to be held up past it's prime like Melee continues to be. Other games to consider that have the "Melee effect" include Third Strike, Street Fighter II Turbo, Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 etc. These are games that offer something truly special to these kind of players and go well beyond the longevity of a fighting game's interest. I'm hoping at some point people see that in a game like Rivals of Aether or even 3D Rivals (if it's good) Even Brawl/Project M destroy Ultimate in the quality over quantity department. Every top tier offers something different compared to the same top tiers in Ultimate that just have the same Grab > Aerial > Aerial flow chart. I don't think Smash 4 and Ultimate are ever going to be considered good games inthe grand scheme of things because it just feels too watered down and offers very little long term substance that is what causes someone to lose interest in a game.
Funny story as a Brawl player, I never understood why players felt the way they did about Melee compared to Brawl until Overwatch came out. As an avid casual TF2 player and UGC rookie, it took me 15 minutes of Overwatch to understand why people would prefer Melee over Brawl.
I am really excited to get to modding the hell out of my Switch. Definitely wanting to work on getting Geno and maybe even some Project M inspired gameplay changes going in it.
Hey, if people like watching the same 6 or 7 polygon figures bump into each other, all power to them. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug. Anywho, looking to the future, what kind of plans do people have, if any, to promote Geno in the next Smash (assuming he doesn’t miraculously get in as the last DLC)?
At this point, I'd just recommend supporting groups like Operation StarFall, Mario RPG Central and the Star Road discord server. honestly just being vocal will not result in immediate satisfaction, but it will certainly be the start of something. Always celebrate the small victories as well. One of the biggest gaming franchises in the past 5 years (Undertale/Deltarune) is littered in omages and tributes to Super Mario RPG and it's characters. That is something we absolutely need to be supportive of and point out!
The thing with Melee compared to Ultimate is that Melee is one of those once in a life time kind of games that will probably never get that same kind of gameplay ever again. Ultimate is never going to be held up past it's prime like Melee continues to be. Other games to consider that have the "Melee effect" include Third Strike, Street Fighter II Turbo, Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 etc. These are games that offer something truly special to these kind of players and go well beyond the longevity of a fighting game's interest. I'm hoping at some point people see that in a game like Rivals of Aether or even 3D Rivals (if it's good) Even Brawl/Project M destroy Ultimate in the quality over quantity department. Every top tier offers something different compared to the same top tiers in Ultimate that just have the same Grab > Aerial > Aerial flow chart. I don't think Smash 4 and Ultimate are ever going to be considered good games inthe grand scheme of things because it just feels too watered down and offers very little long term substance that is what causes someone to lose interest in a game.
I honestly see a future where Ultimate's the Marvel vs Capcom 2 of the series. Not the most mechanically complex, I'd argue that MvsC3 is vastly more complex mechanically than MvsC2 due to X-Factor, but people go back to it constantly due to the good feels of getting to see just how insane the roster is, and of course, nostalgia. Ultimate has one thing above every other game in the series, content, and that's something you can't really take from it. 89 characters, over 108 stages, over one thousand music tracks, it's going to be the ultimate "nostalgia" Smash in terms of sheer content. Brawl will have SSE, Melee will have mechanics, and Ultimate its swell of just content. There is of course an argument to be made of quantity over quality, but frankly, as it stands right now, that's entirely personal preference. I think Ultimate's quantity is quality, you may feel otherwise, there's no one right answer here, because everyone's going to have a differing opinion. The fact that this site exists and debates rage on constantly is proof enough that there's no 'correct' answer to this topic.
I know you're already kinda biased against Ult, no offense but I've read your last dozen or so posts in this thread on the topic(Exaggerating, of course), but I think you're being a bit too harsh here. Now, do I think Ult will exist for as long as Melee has competitively? Well, my own opinion is leaning on a fat no, because it's obvious that streamers and the like will go to where the money is, which is always going to be the 'newest' entry to any game series, even if it sucks, but do I think Ultimate will be looked down on as a bad Smash game like Brawl was, and still is to a degree? Gods no. Just because it's no longer 'the' Smash game, doesn't mean its a bad game. Look at Smash 64 and the community that's cropped up around it. Look at Brawl. which people for years spoke of as being the worst game, and is now suddenly starting to be remembered in a more fond light, even without Project M. The only Smash game I feel which is doomed to obscurity is Smash 4, and that's mainly because Ultimate is just better in nearly every regards. 3DS still has Smash Run, which I'm sure many will remember, but as a whole, Ultimate does what Smash 4 does, but better.
I think Ultimate will very cleanly carve a decently sized part of Smash history unto itself and be looked back on fondly. Will it be what the 1% pro players wanted? No, not even close, but they have Melee for that. I personally think that given a decade or so, people will look back on Smash Ult with very fond memories, because god knows what the next game entails. We don't know how many cuts will happen, who'll even return, how the game will even play, etc. Much like what's happened with Brawl, nostalgia's 100% going to play a heavy hand in Ultimate's future, and if the next Smash game cuts characters like K.Rool and Banjo, you can be sure people are going to elevate Ult to high heavens, that much is obvious. However, until that day comes, all of this is just theoretically. We don't have enough info.
Melee's 100% a once in a lifetime game, yes, but so is Ultimate. I think calling Ultimate's future as being remembered as a 'bad' game is silly, but hey, that's just me. Neither you nor me can see the future, so I think trying to predict it is folly, especially considering a fanbase as flip-floppy as this one is, and how nostalgia driven it can be(See again, Brawl). My predictions are just as possible as yours, so neither of us are really in any position to talk at the end of it all.
While I still think it's going to be a bigger character, I'm still left thinking about a what if where Geno shows up on the 5th.
Also guys, I know this doesn't need to REALLY be said, but don't listen to this music leak or whatever from 4chan. There is no way Sakurai or anyone on the dev team would wait until July of this year to get music for a presentation for a character that was likely 99% done by then and who was chosen in late 2019.
While I still think it's going to be a bigger character, I'm still left thinking about a what if where Geno shows up on the 5th.
Also guys, I know this doesn't need to REALLY be said, but don't listen to this music leak or whatever from 4chan. There is no way Sakurai or anyone on the dev team would wait until July of this year to get music for a presentation for a character that was likely 99% done by then and who was chosen in late 2019.
Actually, the timing period is a lot more realistic than you think. A trailer is completely outsourced and July is a logical time to work on it, when most of the character's animations are done. Enough to make a trailer with gameplay included. The trailer can't be finished without enough proper gameplay to show off, which means not majorly buggy etc.
The timing is the only thing that makes it believable other than the right date. Sakurai has to record the presentation, but it's not done more than a few months at most. The only time it was done near each other was Hero and Banjo & Kazooie, and that's cause they also had the same reveal time and were worked on with each other fully. Other characters were recorded much further off from each other due to having much different reveal decisions.
He's not going to make a presentation 6 months in advance when the character isn't very far. How can he show off polished gameplay yet? 3 months ago might even be too early to use the gameplay. July is just a time when negotiations are easier if it takes a bit of time to actually get the songs(as how the songs are used is highly important). I don't believe the leak either, but timing is not a remote issue for it. It's actually the only thing besides the release date that favors it.
But presentations aren't filmed that too far out in advance. Kazuya's presentation was filmed very shortly after E3, and Min Min's was in like, April or May(Japan declared two COVID state of emergencies in April and May, though Sakurai references a Japanese meme related to social distancing that occurred late, late April, meaning Min's presentation probably was May). Banjo's was literally filmed directly after Hero's, and Banjo only came out like, 37~ days after Hero.
It's one of the reasons why rapper Mario was soo bogus. That leak said that the final Sakurai Presents had been filmed in like, January of this year, and even quoted some things that Sakurai supposedly said in it, including actions like turning to the camera and winking, which is just dumb.
I think the Sora leak's bogus, but getting the rights to music to play in the presentation itself a few months in advance isn't weird. If anything, that may be one of the only believable aspects of it.
And before anyone asks, yeah, Min Min's trailer had to have been filmed anywhere between late, LATE April and her release date in June. Nick Robinson put up a video that showcased that the translation team avoided any mentions of Covid when Sakurai brought it up, and despite Sakurai referencing a Social Distance meme that was popular in Japan at the time, they didn't subtitle it in the Presentation. The fact he referenced a meme that only existed in the later part of April confirms the date.
I honestly see a future where Ultimate's the Marvel vs Capcom 2 of the series. Not the most mechanically complex, I'd argue that MvsC3 is vastly more complex mechanically than MvsC2 due to X-Factor, but people go back to it constantly due to the good feels of getting to see just how insane the roster is, and of course, nostalgia. Ultimate has one thing above every other game in the series, content, and that's something you can't really take from it. 89 characters, over 108 stages, over one thousand music tracks, it's going to be the ultimate "nostalgia" Smash in terms of sheer content. Brawl will have SSE, Melee will have mechanics, and Ultimate its swell of just content. There is of course an argument to be made of quantity over quality, but frankly, as it stands right now, that's entirely personal preference. I think Ultimate's quantity is quality, you may feel otherwise, there's no one right answer here, because everyone's going to have a differing opinion. The fact that this site exists and debates rage on constantly is proof enough that there's no 'correct' answer to this topic.
I know you're already kinda biased against Ult, no offense but I've read your last dozen or so posts in this thread on the topic(Exaggerating, of course), but I think you're being a bit too harsh here. Now, do I think Ult will exist for as long as Melee has competitively? Well, my own opinion is leaning on a fat no, because it's obvious that streamers and the like will go to where the money is, which is always going to be the 'newest' entry to any game series, even if it sucks, but do I think Ultimate will be looked down on as a bad Smash game like Brawl was, and still is to a degree? Gods no. Just because it's no longer 'the' Smash game, doesn't mean its a bad game. Look at Smash 64 and the community that's cropped up around it. Look at Brawl. which people for years spoke of as being the worst game, and is now suddenly starting to be remembered in a more fond light, even without Project M. The only Smash game I feel which is doomed to obscurity is Smash 4, and that's mainly because Ultimate is just better in nearly every regards. 3DS still has Smash Run, which I'm sure many will remember, but as a whole, Ultimate does what Smash 4 does, but better.
I think Ultimate will very cleanly carve a decently sized part of Smash history unto itself and be looked back on fondly. Will it be what the 1% pro players wanted? No, not even close, but they have Melee for that. I personally think that given a decade or so, people will look back on Smash Ult with very fond memories, because god knows what the next game entails. We don't know how many cuts will happen, who'll even return, how the game will even play, etc. Much like what's happened with Brawl, nostalgia's 100% going to play a heavy hand in Ultimate's future, and if the next Smash game cuts characters like K.Rool and Banjo, you can be sure people are going to elevate Ult to high heavens, that much is obvious. However, until that day comes, all of this is just theoretically. We don't have enough info.
Melee's 100% a once in a lifetime game, yes, but so is Ultimate. I think calling Ultimate's future as being remembered as a 'bad' game is silly, but hey, that's just me. Neither you nor me can see the future, so I think trying to predict it is folly, especially considering a fanbase as flip-floppy as this one is, and how nostalgia driven it can be(See again, Brawl). My predictions are just as possible as yours, so neither of us are really in any position to talk at the end of it all.
There is definitely some pessimism with Ultimate that will only continue to build until this game dies in the next year or two. To me, this just comes off as Smash Wii U DX but with an even more barrier to entry for a toxic following which is why finding the flaws with Ultimate such as the game registers buffered inputs/the fact the Switch intentionally runs on 2 frames of lag at all times etc are just a bit more painstakingly obvious to me and as a result, I did find myself moving onto Rivals of Aether and will probably continue focusing that game exclusively.
It also doesn't help that if we try to move forward with a Smash Ultimate XD or some kind of Project M inspired mod of Geno for the game, Nintendo is just gonna want to C&D the hell out of it. Some pessimistic child will just gloat about reporting someone else's hard work and continue this cycle of why Nintendo fans just can't have anything nice anymore. Just consume latest yearly edition of game built on same decrepit gaming engines since Wii/3DS installment.
There is definitely some pessimism with Ultimate that will only continue to build until this game dies in the next year or two. To me, this just comes off as Smash Wii U DX but with an even more barrier to entry for a toxic following which is why finding the flaws with Ultimate such as the game registers buffered inputs/the fact the Switch intentionally runs on 2 frames of lag at all times etc are just a bit more painstakingly obvious to me and as a result, I did find myself moving onto Rivals of Aether and will probably continue focusing that game exclusively.
It also doesn't help that if we try to move forward with a Smash Ultimate XD or some kind of Project M inspired mod of Geno for the game, Nintendo is just gonna want to C&D the hell out of it. Some pessimistic child will just gloat about reporting someone else's hard work and continue this cycle of why Nintendo fans just can't have anything nice anymore. Just consume latest yearly edition of game built on same decrepit gaming engines since Wii/3DS installment.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with not liking a game to be honest, you're free to that opinion.
But I kinda doubt the game will be remembered as a bad game as you put it. Like, look at Brawl, which was, for the longest time, the 'bad' one. Now people who grew up with it remember it fondly as being a part of their childhood and it's started to get a resurgence in appreciation. Not as a shell for Project M to inhabit, but for being itself. And now look at Ultimate, the best selling game in the series. In a decade's time, you're going to have an entire generation of kids who grew up with Ultimate looking back at it fondly.
The latter half of your post feels like more of an exhaustion with Nintendo and their policies which, to be honest I agree with you somewhat. I love Nintendo games, but despise a lot of their company policies and business practices.
Y'know, I'm normally the first person on the "Melee bad" train but I know some Melee guys and I sort of keep up with the game in a very passive sense, and I gotta say that the "Marth and Fox" argument has gotten tired. Melee is a game with a lot of problems and Wyvy was right about it being mostly nostalgia driven, but the game is far from solved and it feels like new tech still gets discovered... Whether or not its useful is anyone's guess - I remember when people didn't think much of wavedashing, but most of us were 13 back then. When I was young, I mained Luigi because I really like him as a character and his janky playstyle vibed with me a lot, but when I got trashed in a chance meeting at the local EB Games by what felt like every character on the roster + Pichu, I switched over to my secondary (Marth) at my assailant's insistence because "Luigi kind of sucks".
Fast forward to today and you see some really creative gameplay coming out of Luigi, especially on netplay. It makes me wish I had stuck with the guy, even though I had never attended a Melee tournament. Luigi's goofy wavedash and stuff like the extended grapple, Samus' super wavedash, the weird Young Link bomb jump thing and Ness's ****ing... lingering hitbox thing are the kind of things that add a lot of soul to Melee and make it easy to understand the appeal, even if all but one of those things are engine exploits or outright glitches.
I think when I say "especially on netplay", it's important to both Melee and Ultimate. Esports are are the most accessible competitive gaming outlet thus far, and stuff like Smash where the most prized interaction is 1v1 is even more accessible because the audience probably has a "gym" at home and can decide to practice, then you don't have to struggle to join a team to start playing tournament level matches locally or online... But even with that said, there's still a lot of barriers to entry for a lot of people and I think the majority of that is geography. The pandemic is awful, and playing online on Nintendo's ****ty network is bad, but I think we've seen a lot of growth for a wide variety of characters and I think that genuine skill and meta definition gets written off as "input delay" or some other lag related excuse when it's online and we've seen in the resurgence of in person Ultimate that no, a lot of that is just genuinely how the game works. There's a lot to learn and a lot to discover and the problem is that the meta of both of these games has been defined by a handful of people who have the ability to attend major tournaments and strut their stuff.
I think it's easy to be pessimistic and say that Ultimate's popularity is going to go out the window with the next entry in the series, but we're really entering into unknown waters, I think. Yes, streamers are going to drop it for the latest hotness, but the big money streamers aren't playing it anyway. Smash has (fortunately, in my opinion) never been a huge money game compared to virtually any other "esports" franchise. Nintendo doesn't pony up pot bonuses or actually sponsor tournaments where they provide games and consoles and space as much as they occasionally rise from their mighty throne and bestow their blessing upon some community organized tournament, but only for as long as that tournament bends to their every whim. I'm not going to go on about this for too long, it's outside of the scope of my point here, but I don't think Ultimate is doomed to some kind of Brawl-esque fate. The uncharted waters I was referring to is that we're sitting here on a Smash game that Sakurai is really making it sound like will be his last and the amount of effort that's gone into stacking the roster sky high with everyone + everyone else speaks to that being a fact and not a musing.
It comes up in here all the time, I guess because we all know in our hearts that it's now or never for Geno, but a future Smash game has a much higher probability of being trimmed down and maybe even completely different than it has of being Ultimate Game of the Year Edition + two more years of DLC. Brawl ended up dividing a community of sweaty teenagers who proceeded to be ****heads to one another on the internet until one group of ****heads beat the other and Melee remained dominant. Smash 4, for as decent as it was, still wasn't enough to bridge that gap and it ended on the most sour note it possibly could, and in a move so far unique to Smash titles, it had to look its successor in the eye from the EVO mainstage and admit its shortcomings. No one was going to stick with Smash 4 after Bayonetta single-handedly ruined it, and I doubt anyone will ever go back to that game outside of a situation like Shroob has described with Brawl where kids who grew up with it say "yeah I think it was pretty cool".
Ultimate's position is that it mostly has respect from the Melee crowd, it's just not their thing. I hate using the word, but it fits here: the toxicity of the Brawl/Melee days is gone, maybe because we're all older and have a little respect for one another? Or maybe because there's just genuinely not as much on a surface level to complain about Ultimate? Maybe a mix of both. Regardless, Melee lived because a group of dedicated players kept it alive even when no one cared, and I think the same can happen for any game. If you get upset that your community has dried up, you have to really evaluate how much you've put into the "community" aspect of it. I've mentioned a few posts ago that what Melee really has going for it is personality, and right now, I don't feel like we see that in Ultimate. I see younger folks watch Melee or talk about Melee with respect and admiration not because they play it, but because they enjoy the culture of the game, and while I love the Ultimate communities I'm a part of, on the broader scope it feels like the culture of Ultimate is arguing over who belongs in the game and youtubers chasing the spotlight making clickbait about the move of the week being broken or [x] character being slept on because of one off results at a larger local or some online tournament. It's only been almost three years though, culture is earned, not given.
I thought that the pandemic would kill Ultimate. I was seeing a huge resurgence of Melee love thanks to Slippi and the glimpses of Brawl era Melee vs [current Smash] clashing on Twitter that made me think that we were going down that road again and I gotta say, it brought out the worst in me, too. But, Ultimate's still here, despite everything else, and I was able to see my local again for a while and was surprised that it came back even stronger. That's something that can last if people just put work into it.
I do think that when the game has virtually no meaningful singleplayer content, it speaks to Nintendo finally recognizing that Smash is a competitive game first and a party game for kids or drunk frat boys second. It should have been Nintendo's favorite son for their entry into the esports world, but they chose to push Splatoon more probably because it needed the flotation device.
I don't want this to come off as a call out because he's a good guy and a great friend to this community, but this got started by what honestly feels like typical SSGuy. From my perspective it seems like he woke up frustrated with Ultimate one day some time last year and just went full on sour grapes about the game. I've seen him praise Brawl as the best entry in the series (presumably because of how much hope the lead up to its release had) and say that Smash doesn't hold a candle to Rivals of Aether to the point that it feels like satire.
I've said it before: Ultimate has a lot of problems and many of them stem from the bloated roster. I think the DLC is the weakest point of the game with only a few meaningful additions and otherwise characters that pad the roster and help make the selling point that this is the official fighting game with the biggest, craziest roster ever and will likely stay that way, ignoring the fact that with a roster this big there's characters that are 100% jank with zero substance, characters that feel like they invalidate other, similar characters (especially when comparing DLC to base roster), and just in general shoddy balance here and there that manages to not be a huge problem because every character somehow manages to have at least one aspect that's just loony toons bull**** and everyone playing against them has to cope.
All of that said, no way this game goes down as anything less than great, regardless of whether or not it ends up living 2 decades or dies as soon as the next Smash game is announced.
So... There's a music leak? Sora? Hold an old man's hand and help him cross the street, I'm not as big into leaks as I have been. None of them are real and none of them ever pay off, but I want to laugh too, damn it.
About the whole Sora leak... I´m sorry, but even if Sora is the last one (which isn´t an impossibility) I still can´t believe it. You expect me to believe that Steve takes 5 years to get, but getting access to a specific song takes a month or two when Disney is involved. The company that is known to being more overprotective with their IP than what Nintendo is to the point that they denied a dad to have Spiderman on his deceased grave? I don´t buy that.
About the whole Sora leak... I´m sorry, but even if Sora is the last one (which isn´t an impossibility) I still can´t believe it. You expect me to believe that Steve takes 5 years to get, but getting access to a specific song takes a month or two when Disney is involved. The company that is known to being more overprotective with their IP than what Nintendo is to the point that they denied a dad to have Spiderman on his deceased grave? I don´t buy that.
Idk how nintendo working with disney is all that shocking when Disney has 2 games coming to switch, the Disney kingdome thing and the collection of old disney games
Idk how nintendo working with disney is all that shocking when Disney has 2 games coming to switch, the Disney kingdome thing and the collection of old disney games
You misunderstand me. I don´t find it shocking that Nintendo works with Disney. Heck, I wouldn´t be that shocked/suprised if Sora get in due to his worldwide popularity. Master Chief I would because he is a nobody in Japan but that's a different story. What do question is the legitimacy of the claim that it took just a couple of months for them to get some music from them.. Disney isn´t SNK who just says "ok here".
So this thread is back? Cool. To be honest I have both good and bad memories of the Geno thread. Most of Ya'll were chill and fun, but I also got harrassed and flamed a lot there too. I'm gonna try coming back, even though Geno is dead for this game. Imo we probably Ridley'd him into the next game, so I think it's just a matter of time.
You misunderstand me. I don´t find it shocking that Nintendo works with Disney. Heck, I wouldn´t be that shocked/suprised if Sora get in due to his worldwide popularity. Master Chief I would because he is a nobody in Japan but that's a different story. What do question is the legitimacy of the claim that it took just a couple of months for them to get some music from them.. Disney isn´t SNK who just says "ok here".
Yeah, that is true, i doubt it would be easy to get disney music but for all we know, if that music leak was true, it could of actually been real easy because they were on board already
Yeah, that is true, i doubt it would be easy to get disney music but for all we know, if that music leak was true, it could of actually been real easy because they were on board already
I feel like people are overestimating how much Disney cares about Kingdom Hearts. If they were trying to get music from Mary Poppins or Lion King or something it would probably be a nightmare, but Kingdom Hearts is more of a square thing that Disney just allows. I don't think they'll be too protective of it.
I feel like people are overestimating how much Disney cares about Kingdom Hearts. If they were trying to get music from Mary Poppins or Lion King or something it would probably be a nightmare, but Kingdom Hearts is more of a square thing that Disney just allows. I don't think they'll be too protective of it.
There's something that I don't understand about that "leak", the leak specifically said that Nintendo asked for the rights to use those tracks in the presentation:
But why would they ask for the rights of the tracks again when they had to ask for them before to put them in the game (or even make remixes of some of them)?
But why would they ask for the rights of the tracks again when they had to ask for them before to put them in the game (or even make remixes of some of them)?
Not necessarily. Bowser Jr, Joker, Hero and others I’m probably forgetting had music tracks negotiated for their reveal trailers that don’t even appear in-game, so they are probably handled separately.
So that part of the rumor is at least somewhat plausible, but there’s still no reason to actually trust it. All it did was call a date in advance, which isn’t particularly impressive, all things considered.
I feel like people are overestimating how much Disney cares about Kingdom Hearts. If they were trying to get music from Mary Poppins or Lion King or something it would probably be a nightmare, but Kingdom Hearts is more of a square thing that Disney just allows. I don't think they'll be too protective of it.
Not necessarily. Bowser Jr, Joker, Hero and others I’m probably forgetting had music tracks negotiated for their reveal trailers that don’t even appear in-game, so they are probably handled separately.
So that part of the rumor is at least somewhat plausible, but there’s still no reason to actually trust it. All it did was call a date in advance, which isn’t particularly impressive, all things considered.
I'm not a legal expert but I think it's a safe assumption to say that everything would be negotiated for any character, including music, at the same time as negotiating the appearance. I do think what's interesting to think about is is that most of the times we've seen a song used in a presentation that has not appeared in game, it's been for a Mii costume.
Licensing in general is weird and is full of clauses, fine print, and nitty-gritty specifics. Like you can have rights to a property but only in a certain medium. Sony owns the rights to Spider-Man, but only in the context of film. Television and comics still fall under Marvel. Licensing for different mediums can also be cheaper or more expensive. Apparently the rights to different Godzilla monsters are very expensive to use in films, hence few classic monsters appearing in the American films, but licensing them for comics or video games is very cheap since smaller publishers have had a plethora of classic monsters show up in their works.
Similarly I can easily see songs being licensed for a game specifically being different from getting the license to use in a streamed presentation. It's dumb but all copyright law is. This goes double when you're dealing with big and complicated companies/copyrights like Square and Disney.
That being said this 4chan post is nothing but a lucky guess in regards to the date.
I’m guessing that obtaining the rights for a song to appear in a piece of promotional material is just less expensive than getting them to appear in the game itself. If it weren’t, we would probably have Life Will Change and the Dragon Quest overture in the Mementos and Yggdrasil Altar stages.
I’m with you— I don’t see why they’re handled separately either, but that is, ostensibly, what’s happening.
I’m guessing that obtaining the rights for a song to appear in a piece of promotional material is just less expensive than getting them to appear in the game itself. If it weren’t, we would probably have Life Will Change and the Dragon Quest overture in the Mementos and Yggdrasil Altar stages.
I’m with you— I don’t see why they’re handled separately either, but that is, ostensibly, what’s happening.
Just because a song doesn't show up in the game doesn't mean it was negotiated separately, I believe is the crux of the matter here. Like, it doesn't entirely make sense that Nintendo would call Atlus and say "we would like Joker in this video game and we are going to make a trailer for him. Would you provide some songs for the game? (which letting the companies determine what songs come with the character seems to be 100% the case)" and then call a week later and say "oh by the way we want a song for the trailer lmao my bad for forgetting".
Also, wouldn’t Yoko Shimomura be the copyright holder of the music from Kingdom Hearts? Why wouldn’t they go to her to get the rights instead of “““Disney Music”””?
Also, wouldn’t Yoko Shimomura be the copyright holder of the music from Kingdom Hearts? Why wouldn’t they go to her to get the rights instead of “““Disney Music”””?
It's a good point, but who's to say who owns what with a Square game? Sakurai spelled out how much of a trainwreck the ownership is over the Final Fantasy music, with the distributor of some of the songs being different on a per-country basis. Some of that might be Uematsu being a ******* about his "record label" but in general it shouldn't be this hard. These companies are clowns to be creating and publishing video games that they don't negotiate owning 100% of the content in.
Just because a song doesn't show up in the game doesn't mean it was negotiated separately, I believe is the crux of the matter here. Like, it doesn't entirely make sense that Nintendo would call Atlus and say "we would like Joker in this video game and we are going to make a trailer for him. Would you provide some songs for the game? (which letting the companies determine what songs come with the character seems to be 100% the case)" and then call a week later and say "oh by the way we want a song for the trailer lmao my bad for forgetting".
Joker may be a bad example for this. IIRC his trailer was made on relatively short notice, and at that point in time Sakurai expressed uncertainty on whether or not other characters would even get CGI trailers, so it still seems entirely plausible to me that the music that appears in the reveal trailer is picked at a relevant time- possibly during the storyboarding process- and that this may or may not actually coincide with when the music for the game is chosen.
Joker may be a bad example for this. IIRC his trailer was made on relatively short notice, and at that point in time Sakurai expressed uncertainty on whether or not other characters would even get CGI trailers, so it still seems entirely plausible to me that the music that appears in the reveal trailer is picked at a relevant time- possibly during the storyboarding process- and that this may or may not actually coincide with when the music for the game is chosen.
I don't remember Sakurai being uncertain about the other characters getting CGI presentations. I do remember him saying he wasn't sure if everyone would get a "Sakurai Presents", though.
Also, wouldn’t Yoko Shimomura be the copyright holder of the music from Kingdom Hearts? Why wouldn’t they go to her to get the rights instead of “““Disney Music”””?
You would think she would also be the holder for SMRPG music and with her being active in Smash that there would be music from SMRPG as well, but here we are unfortunately.
This licensing nightmare is specifically why people feel the next Smash will be gutted badly.
