Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[TheCJBrine]

I love that Twitter account.

this is blessed.

 

[Mr Gentleman]

Just popping in after a long time away. sad to see things looking more grim for Geno when I was once so sure he was going to make it into the base game.
it doesn't bother me too much now. game is still great, and I'm hopeful the rest of the DLC is as awesome as joker.

at this point I'm not so sure Geno will make the fighter pass. so focusing my attention on my other wishes. but I'm pretty sure we're gonna get more fighter passes after this one. think Nintendo is probably gonna try to keep this smash game around for awhile with lots of DLC. and I could see the second run of DLC characters being a focus on long time fan picks.

 

[TewnLeenk]

I haven't been here in a while, how are things looking for the puppet boi?

 

[Deleted member]

I haven't been here in a while, how are things looking for the puppet boi?

A lot of people think it's looking bleak for him, but I'm honestly pretty confident about him making the pass.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I've been at the edge of my seat all month. I'm pretty sure I'm internally under the assumption we're getting a new character reveal this month too, and the 3rd character will get announced at E3. Hoping I'm correct...

 

[Firox]

All I can say is that we need to make sure our expectations are firmly in the gutter. That way, no matter what we get, we can still be happy and enjoy the show. That said, I'm still thinking that we won't get a direct until 4/24 or 4/25 to coincide with the Persona Q2 announcement or whatever. If we don't get wind of a direct this week, which is usually announced on Tuesday or Wednesday, then it'll pretty much confirm my prediction.

 

[ForsakenM]

Wow, for some reasons I didn't expect anyone to take it personally when I said that if you didn't support the Geno Mii costume you have easily gone against your own wishes of wanting him in the game, but people got kinda upset about it.

Welp, here I am to irk you all again I suppose. I assume that everyone here understood how businesses work when it comes to what consumers want. Now, assuming the business actually listens to their consumers, they have to find which voices hold which opinions and which are the most common (one of the issues nowadays is that companies are going for the 'loudest' and not their actual consumer base or the majority) and make decisions from there. When the opportunity is present, companies will often use social media or commercials or a minor product or campaign to check ACTUAL interest, which is to say to see who puts their money where their mouth is in the most literal sense. Now if that pans out well and they are convinced they can make a profit, then they will go full-force on the product/decision that was requested.

In our case, we want Geno in Smash and have for years. Now that it is possible for that to happen, as it wasn't in Brawl when the requests first started, Sakurai (and by extension Nintendo and partially Square) would have gotten information about how many people were still interested in Geno after Smash 4's release. Now apparently that amount of votes was big enough for Sakurai to acknowledge the amount in an interview and enough so that he felt obligated to give us something when he just didn't have the time or resources to make Geno playable. So we got a Mii costume of Geno. Now, I understand that this particular situation with Sakurai essentially giving us a gift is still one that costs money, so even though it didn't cost that much, I will not even dream of calling anyone entitled or hypocritical here. That would be ridiculous.

However, I will point out that Nintendo is calling the DLC shots in some capacity now, and that Nintendo and possibly Square will have looked at the numbers of those sales before making any decisions in the future. If Nintendo sees low sales after all the demand, they could look at it how Sakurai looks at Waluigi fan support and essentially discredit us and Geno's chances simply because people didn't buy the Mii Costume out of spite.

You cannot deny one thing regardless: if you are a Geno fan, and you didn't buy the costume, you wasted a chance to financially support your boi. That is on you and no one else. Keep this in mind for the future that sometimes supporting something that isn't QUITE what you want in some capacity helps lead to getting what you want rather than doing the opposite.
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All I can say is that we need to make sure our expectations are firmly in the gutter. That way, no matter what we get, we can still be happy and enjoy the show. That said, I'm still thinking that we won't get a direct until 4/24 or 4/25 to coincide with the Persona Q2 announcement or whatever. If we don't get wind of a direct this week, which is usually announced on Tuesday or Wednesday, then it'll pretty much confirm my prediction.

First off, no. Geno's chances are not slim to glum or any other negative connotation you can think of. Break out of that stupid shell and realize that so many things point to his return in some form or another, and where better to start than in Smash as part of the fighters pass so that people who don't know about SMRPG can learn how awesome it is. Erdrick's chances are not better than his and his only real competition is Sora and that depends on your outlook considering Sora isn't really a Square rep when all is said and done.

Lastly, if there is no announcement this week, I would expect nada until E3. PolarPanda is of a similar opinion, though keep in mind this is just that: an opinion with no secret info behind it, though a decent amount of common sense. Nothing big can happen in May because E3 is early June, and when you add in not wanting to steal Persona's thunder on the 25th, it makes more sense to have the Labo VR announcement talked about in a direct prior rather than the day of the Persona event. Also, Joker and 3.0 are supposed to release before April's end, which is now likely a single release with both coming out at the same time. They need to give players enough of a window to save replays, yet this patch still needs to be revealed and dropped before April's end.

They are running out of time.

 

[Firox]

First off, no. Geno's chances are not slim to glum or any other negative connotation you can think of. Break out of that stupid shell and realize that so many things point to his return in some form or another, and where better to start than in Smash as part of the fighters pass so that people who don't know about SMRPG can learn how awesome it is. Erdrick's chances are not better than his and his only real competition is Sora and that depends on your outlook considering Sora isn't really a Square rep when all is said and done.

Funny, I don't seem to remember ever saying that "Geno's chances are slim to glum" (or slim to NONE). Stop assuming what other ppl believe. I was just saying that ppl need to keep their expectations in check regardless of who they're rooting for. I say this as a staunch Geno fan that's been disappointed FAR too many times to get on that roller coaster again. I do agree that if ever there was a time for Geno to get in, this is it. Doesn't have to be this particular fighter pass per se, but maybe the next two waves that I believe are coming. Still, given the last two decades of Smash bros newcomers, and the impossible task of predicting their inclusion, I realize that Geno could NOT get in just as easily as he COULD get in. The choice isn't mine to make. My point is to try and be happy for whatever we get. I'm not counting anybody out, just don't be too overly confident in something you couldn't possibly know.

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

We'll miss ya, Reggie.

I'll miss Reggie so much. I don't know if I was the only one hoping for this, but I was really hoping Nintendo and Seth Green would give us another Robot Chicken stop-motion animation with Reggie and a bunch of Nintendo characters again for his final day.

**Direct starts**
"Hi everyone, Reggie here from Nintendo. Welcome to our April Nintendo Direct, my last Direct with you all. And you guys thought we would give you
Mother 3."

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member]

I'll miss Reggie so much. I don't know if I was the only one hoping for this, but I was really hoping Nintendo and Seth Green would give us another Robot Chicken stop-motion animation with Reggie and a bunch of Nintendo characters again for his final day.

**Direct starts**
"Hi everyone, Reggie here from Nintendo. Welcome to our April Nintendo Direct, my last Direct with you all. And you guys thought we would give you
Mother 3."

Spoiler

*Zack E. wants to know your location*

 

[The Anigriffin]

I'll miss Reggie so much. I don't know if I was the only one hoping for this, but I was really hoping Nintendo and Seth Green would give us another Robot Chicken stop-motion animation with Reggie and a bunch of Nintendo characters again for his final day.

**Direct starts**
"Hi everyone, Reggie here from Nintendo. Welcome to our April Nintendo Direct, my last Direct with you all. And you guys thought we would give you
Mother 3."

Spoiler

You have angered him.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I'll miss Reggie so much. I don't know if I was the only one hoping for this, but I was really hoping Nintendo and Seth Green would give us another Robot Chicken stop-motion animation with Reggie and a bunch of Nintendo characters again for his final day.

**Direct starts**
"Hi everyone, Reggie here from Nintendo. Welcome to our April Nintendo Direct, my last Direct with you all. And you guys thought we would give you
Mother 3."

Spoiler

Sounds accurate.

Don't worry, if we get no Mother content this year, us Mother fans will continue living in a perpetual state of desire. We do not give up or take no for an answer. Do not underestimate us...

BUT SERIOUSLY WHERE THE **** IS MOTHER 3 THIS IS GETTING RIDICULOUS

 

[Deleted member]

Sounds accurate.

Don't worry, if we get no Mother content this year, us Mother fans will continue living in a perpetual state of desire. We do not give up or take no for an answer. Do not underestimate us...

BUT SERIOUSLY WHERE THE **** IS MOTHER 3 THIS IS GETTING RIDICULOUS

That's the spirit my friend

 

[DaxMasterix]

I want a Mother Trilogy :3 It seems perfect for me.
It doesn't have to be remastered, it just need to exist.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I want a Mother Trilogy :3 It seems perfect for me.
It doesn't have to be remastered, it just need to exist.

I just want one instance where Nintendo gives Mother the recognition it deserves.

 

[Deleted member]

Wow, for some reasons I didn't expect anyone to take it personally when I said that if you didn't support the Geno Mii costume you have easily gone against your own wishes of wanting him in the game, but people got kinda upset about it.

Welp, here I am to irk you all again I suppose. I assume that everyone here understood how businesses work when it comes to what consumers want. Now, assuming the business actually listens to their consumers, they have to find which voices hold which opinions and which are the most common (one of the issues nowadays is that companies are going for the 'loudest' and not their actual consumer base or the majority) and make decisions from there. When the opportunity is present, companies will often use social media or commercials or a minor product or campaign to check ACTUAL interest, which is to say to see who puts their money where their mouth is in the most literal sense. Now if that pans out well and they are convinced they can make a profit, then they will go full-force on the product/decision that was requested.

You implied that I somehow am part of some minority of the fanbase who is to blame for Geno not getting in because I didn't spend my money on a stupid looking Mii outfit. Of course I'm gonna take that personal. Geno is my number 1 hopeful regardless of how I use my wallet and whether you like it or not I'm not gonna let my wallet dictate who should be considered to be a playable character in Smash. I'll let my passion and my voice do the talking because that's how it should be. How much money was spent on Ridley DLC before he got in? Literally not one cent but look who got in and look at how he got in. With support and a vocal fanbase to boot.

I explained my experience with Smash 4 in my last post. I didn't care for it. Why should I invest my money into it if I could barely invest my time into it? Especially around that time when I was flat broke and working a part time job fishing loonies and toonies out of my couch just to put food in my belly. I wasn't going to waste any of that on a Mii costume because that's not what I wanted and is definitely not what I asked for. If Geno was a paid DLC fighter back then, I'd probably change my mind.

In our case, we want Geno in Smash and have for years. Now that it is possible for that to happen, as it wasn't in Brawl when the requests first started, Sakurai (and by extension Nintendo and partially Square) would have gotten information about how many people were still interested in Geno after Smash 4's release. Now apparently that amount of votes was big enough for Sakurai to acknowledge the amount in an interview and enough so that he felt obligated to give us something when he just didn't have the time or resources to make Geno playable. So we got a Mii costume of Geno. Now, I understand that this particular situation with Sakurai essentially giving us a gift is still one that costs money, so even though it didn't cost that much, I will not even dream of calling anyone entitled or hypocritical here. That would be ridiculous.

I wanted Geno. Not some knockoff. If a knockoff is good enough for you then God speed my friend but it clearly wasn't good enough for me.

However, I will point out that Nintendo is calling the DLC shots in some capacity now, and that Nintendo and possibly Square will have looked at the numbers of those sales before making any decisions in the future. If Nintendo sees low sales after all the demand, they could look at it how Sakurai looks at Waluigi fan support and essentially discredit us and Geno's chances simply because people didn't buy the Mii Costume out of spite.

Damn. I had no idea you worked for Nintendo. Please, enlighten us more about their business practices and how they do things. You don't know if the sales of the outfit effects how Nintendo views a potential character. We have the Ballot for that. I'm sure there's plenty of people that didn't buy the costume out of spite. Fair, but I'm not one of them and there's nothing wrong with not buying something they don't want spite or no spite. I didn't buy it because, I was broke, it's not what I wanted, and I didn't care enough for Smash 4 to spend money on it. I've said this before:

Not everyone had the same feelings or experiences for Smash 4 or the Geno Mii outfit so don't assume that everyone didn't buy because they wanted to spite Nintendo.

You cannot deny one thing regardless: if you are a Geno fan, and you didn't buy the costume, you wasted a chance to financially support your boi. That is on you and no one else.

Actually, I can.

*ahem*
I deny this.

Keep this in mind for the future that sometimes supporting something that isn't QUITE what you want in some capacity helps lead to getting what you want rather than doing the opposite.

No.
You don't know that it helps. Stop pretending like you do. As far as we know the sales of the Mii Outfit could be completely irrelevent to Geno's chances. Otherwise, what's the point of the ballot and a fanbases social media presence?

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Wow, for some reasons I didn't expect anyone to take it personally when I said that if you didn't support the Geno Mii costume you have easily gone against your own wishes of wanting him in the game, but people got kinda upset about it.

Welp, here I am to irk you all again I suppose. I assume that everyone here understood how businesses work when it comes to what consumers want. Now, assuming the business actually listens to their consumers, they have to find which voices hold which opinions and which are the most common (one of the issues nowadays is that companies are going for the 'loudest' and not their actual consumer base or the majority) and make decisions from there. When the opportunity is present, companies will often use social media or commercials or a minor product or campaign to check ACTUAL interest, which is to say to see who puts their money where their mouth is in the most literal sense. Now if that pans out well and they are convinced they can make a profit, then they will go full-force on the product/decision that was requested.

In our case, we want Geno in Smash and have for years. Now that it is possible for that to happen, as it wasn't in Brawl when the requests first started, Sakurai (and by extension Nintendo and partially Square) would have gotten information about how many people were still interested in Geno after Smash 4's release. Now apparently that amount of votes was big enough for Sakurai to acknowledge the amount in an interview and enough so that he felt obligated to give us something when he just didn't have the time or resources to make Geno playable. So we got a Mii costume of Geno. Now, I understand that this particular situation with Sakurai essentially giving us a gift is still one that costs money, so even though it didn't cost that much, I will not even dream of calling anyone entitled or hypocritical here. That would be ridiculous.

However, I will point out that Nintendo is calling the DLC shots in some capacity now, and that Nintendo and possibly Square will have looked at the numbers of those sales before making any decisions in the future. If Nintendo sees low sales after all the demand, they could look at it how Sakurai looks at Waluigi fan support and essentially discredit us and Geno's chances simply because people didn't buy the Mii Costume out of spite.

You cannot deny one thing regardless: if you are a Geno fan, and you didn't buy the costume, you wasted a chance to financially support your boi. That is on you and no one else. Keep this in mind for the future that sometimes supporting something that isn't QUITE what you want in some capacity helps lead to getting what you want rather than doing the opposite.
------------------------------------------------------------------


First off, no. Geno's chances are not slim to glum or any other negative connotation you can think of. Break out of that stupid shell and realize that so many things point to his return in some form or another, and where better to start than in Smash as part of the fighters pass so that people who don't know about SMRPG can learn how awesome it is. Erdrick's chances are not better than his and his only real competition is Sora and that depends on your outlook considering Sora isn't really a Square rep when all is said and done.

Lastly, if there is no announcement this week, I would expect nada until E3. PolarPanda is of a similar opinion, though keep in mind this is just that: an opinion with no secret info behind it, though a decent amount of common sense. Nothing big can happen in May because E3 is early June, and when you add in not wanting to steal Persona's thunder on the 25th, it makes more sense to have the Labo VR announcement talked about in a direct prior rather than the day of the Persona event. Also, Joker and 3.0 are supposed to release before April's end, which is now likely a single release with both coming out at the same time. They need to give players enough of a window to save replays, yet this patch still needs to be revealed and dropped before April's end.

They are running out of time.

Stop trying to guilt trip people for not buying a costume they didn't have interest in them or even implying that they are a less supportive fan than anybody who did buy the costume "Business Sense" does not constitute proof for any of your points that the sales of the Geno Mii costume in any way impacted the potential inclusion of Geno as a character. There's not a single thing to indicate that as the reality, especially when he was revealed well after the ballot had kicked off and THAT WAS positioned as the way for fans to express their interests in particular characters. Mii costumes were 100% positioned as additional DLC for those interested, nothing more.

Even if it was, Nintendo absolutely made no mention of the sort, made no comment upon the Geno's future being dependent on this one Mii costume. Most of those campaigns and trials of the market are usually highlighted as such, and we've even seen Nintendo do this with Chibi-Robo in the past. They've mentioned fan demand needs to be expressed in situations in which they are evaluating the situation and fans should show support. Making a situation like that and then not telling the fans means that they inherently set up the situation so failure was the most likely outcome. Then Nintendo really hates us, but again, there's not a shred of proof for such an idea either.

It's a far more likely scenario that Sakurai went negotiating for the rights of a Final Fantasy character and knew going in that he was only going to be able to realize one character from Square for DLC. He specifically states, "I made sure he'd be a Mii costume so his fans would at least feel they got something." (https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016...ans-one-most-requested-smash-bros-characters/ ). That sounds a lot more to me like a director who knew the limitations of his current DLC cycle deciding to try and give the fans a gift, and nothing more than that. He couldn't make Geno a playable fighter during the Smash 4 DLC period, so he did the next best thing he could. And that's generally what all of the Mii costumes felt like, not test runs for the next Smash character. There's just nothing in his commentary on Geno to suggest any sense of urgency to the situation, so I disagree heavily that they positioned Mii costumes as such.


And that's not even getting into the principle of it. No, some of us who didn't buy the costume chose so not because of spite, but genuine disinterest and principle. We weren't interested in the product, so we didn't buy it. Or we didn't like the idea of Mii costumes and avoided buying them altogether since they're of no use to me. We as fans shouldn't have to pony up cash just to give our character a shot at the next game. Again, when you don't position anything as such, buying the costume has no value beyond the single dollar to Nintendo and your personal enjoyment of the costume. And if you don't like it, then you're basically gambling if this random minor item has any impact on Geno's chances.

But beyond that, the Mii costume went against my principles as all Mii costumes do... I'm sorry, but I'm not abandoning my principles just to get Geno in like that. I've got a roster full of characters I love and many more I could potentially have, I'm not going to bend to a cooperation's will like that if they do take a character hostage and basically extort money out of the fans. No character or franchise is worth that to me. It's on the cooperation to make quality products, not me to specifically pay Nintendo for a chance to get my preferred characters in or otherwise. It's not like Nintendo can't afford to take a chance on a ****ing Smash DLC character of all things when the game's DLC has already been their historically highest selling DLC...

And again, I don't really buy this ridiculous narrative that Geno's future depended on the sales of this Mii costume to begin with or that we missed a chance to support him (If anything, it was just a chance for Sakurai to support us as fans and give us something for our love over the years). Especially when nobody actually knows the sales of Mii costumes and we can't make any statements on them since we have no evidence to work with.

 

[Brothanigus]

I'm tellin' ya. They're gonna have a direct on April 30th at 11:59 pm.

EHHHHHHH I doubt it. Nintendo loves to slowly milk whatever they're releasing. I'd bet they're going to wait until E3 to do a double reveal.

Though I think some characters will be delayed. Unless Nintendo shows/releases 1 character every 2.5 months starting this month or they pair them from here on out. Choosing to show/release the Joker first was a very bad idea(choosing the character was an even worse idea.)

And Eric, above me, I agree with you. Nintendo has never done this must sell this well (x) for Y to continue on. I've never once seen NIntendo say or do this.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

EHHHHHHH I doubt it. Nintendo loves to slowly milk whatever they're releasing. I'd bet they're going to wait until E3 to do a double reveal.

Though I think some characters will be delayed. Unless Nintendo shows/releases 1 character every 2.5 months starting this month or they pair them from here on out. Choosing to show/release the Joker first was a very bad idea(choosing the character was an even worse idea.)

And Eric, above me, I agree with you. Nintendo has never done this must sell this well (x) for Y to continue on. I've never once seen NIntendo say or do this.

I doubt it would have been any different with any other character. We were always going to have to wait longer for the first one since Sakurai couldn’t focus on them until both base game was done and Piranha Plant was ready.

Like I’ve said elsewhere, Mewtwo didn’t come out until 6 months after launch, so Sakurai has a history of taking time before the first character releases and this largely mirrors that situation. Joker specifically hasn’t impacted anything except for maybe a very slight delay match with Atlus’ big Persona April blowout.

It’s more reasonable to see the pace pick up from here since he’s only really had four months to develop DLC fighters and he has likely worked on multiple at once. Smash 4 went from one DLC fighter to four after just two months, I think it’s completely reasonable to see a faster and more regular DLC cycle once Joker drops. Though it might take a little longer overall since they’re all brand new characters and not any veterans.

It’s also worth mentioning that I specifically pointed out an instance when Nintendo has told fans the sales of a game impacted the future to highlight the fact that they would tell us if that was the case again. It was Chibi Robo Zip-Lash and that series, though circumstances were much more dire as the series unfortunately never sold well and that game was his fifth shot... I want him in Smash so badly so he can live on, but that’s another topic.

Also, you can probably refer to him as just Joker and not “the Joker.”

 

[link2702]

Guys stop with the gloom and doom please...

Every day someone goes from cautiously optimistic, to pessimistic, and back again. Seriously at this point we just don’t have any idea what genos chances are. Going around in circles constantly feeling they go one way, then another, then back again, is not healthy.

Start discussing anything else really, from moveset ideas, to mario lore, to even other favorite games, but we’re better off atm not trying to “search for more clues” about whether his chance has went up, down, or stayed the same. We’re in April now, and we literally don’t have any more real news or even questionable leaks to go off of since...what? 3-4 months now? That goes for both good news and bad.

Some of y’all will drive yourselves mad trying to reanalyze the same info we’ve had for months now to see if something we missed pops up.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Some of y’all will drive yourselves mad trying to reanalyze the same info we’ve had for months now to see if something we missed pops up.

I agree. In my opinion, there's no use worrying about the future because it's pointless. Worrying and being negative about the circumstances isn't making anyone feel better, so why worry at all? We just need to be patient. It's easier said than done but we just have to distract ourselves like L link2702 mentioned. Talk about literally anything else besides this one topic that's only causing arguments. We've come to the conclusion that we basically don't know what''s going to happen so why drone on?

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

Oh and has anyone else realized that Geno's spirit means it's a spirit whitin a spirit?

Gasp. A spirit inside a spirit. That's like... SIXTEEN spirits!

Like I’ve said elsewhere, Mewtwo didn’t come out until 6 months after launch, so Sakurai has a history of taking time before the first character releases and this largely mirrors that situation. Joker specifically hasn’t impacted anything except for maybe a very slight delay match with Atlus’ big Persona April blowout.

Since it seems like the first DLC characters take a while to come out, and the rest of the DLC didn't take too long compared to the 1st DLC character, he probably takes a long time with the 1st DLC character so he gets a head start with his work. Joker's done already, and my guess is Sakurai is currently working on the 3rd DLC character right now. I think this is how it works and hopefully I can make this understandable... for example: when the 2nd DLC character is released, the 3rd should already be finished and possibly revealed by the time the 2nd DLC character is about to be released, and that should mean he'd be currently working on the unveiled 4th so he can try to finish early. Not saying I'm right, but I figure that's how he gets his DLC schedule done.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Gasp. A spirit inside a spirit. That's like... SIXTEEN spirits!

Since it seems like the first DLC characters take a while to come out, and the rest of the DLC didn't take too long compared to the 1st DLC character, he probably takes a long time with the 1st DLC character so he gets a head start with his work. Joker's done already, and my guess is Sakurai is currently working on the 3rd DLC character right now. I think this is how it works and hopefully I can make this understandable... for example: when the 2nd DLC character is released, the 3rd should already be finished and possibly revealed by the time the 2nd DLC character is about to be released, and that should mean he'd be currently working on the unveiled 4th so he can try to finish early. Not saying I'm right, but I figure that's how he gets his DLC schedule done.

Yeah, I think Sakurai likes to also focus on cleaning up the game further once the base game releases and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he took things a little easier after the release before ramping back up into DLC. From what we’ve heard, every Smash game has been incredibly stressful and laborious work, with actual physical consequences to himself, so yeah. A full on break or at least a period of slower and less overall work makes a lot of sense too. Sakurai’s still human after all.

And yeah, ideally I would see them basically have it set up where we always know who’s coming next. Drop Joker after this upcoming Smash Direct and also have the next announcement show up in said Direct. Then rinse and repeat for the whole Fighter’s Pass with a character dropping every 2-3 months. That’s sort of been my official prediction for things since the Pass and Piranha Plant got announced. And it seems to generally be playing out how I’ve expected time frame wise.

Now it would be a hilariously Nintendo move to just drop Joker and 3.0 without the hype and without a reveal showing off the next character... While I wouldn’t mind too much since I don’t care so much about hype cycles at this point with regards to officially revealing information and I just have tons more patience with the full game in my hands...

The community would just go absolutely mental and it would be hilarious, sad, and awful for so many different reasons... I hope we avoid that timeline, and they did announce Lucas last time after showing off Mewtwo, but who knows how things work out this time...

 

[ForsakenM]

Funny, I don't seem to remember ever saying that "Geno's chances are slim to glum" (or slim to NONE). Stop assuming what other ppl believe. I was just saying that ppl need to keep their expectations in check regardless of who they're rooting for. I say this as a staunch Geno fan that's been disappointed FAR too many times to get on that roller coaster again. I do agree that if ever there was a time for Geno to get in, this is it. Doesn't have to be this particular fighter pass per se, but maybe the next two waves that I believe are coming. Still, given the last two decades of Smash bros newcomers, and the impossible task of predicting their inclusion, I realize that Geno could NOT get in just as easily as he COULD get in. The choice isn't mine to make. My point is to try and be happy for whatever we get. I'm not counting anybody out, just don't be too overly confident in something you couldn't possibly know.

Guys stop with the gloom and doom please...

Every day someone goes from cautiously optimistic, to pessimistic, and back again. Seriously at this point we just don’t have any idea what genos chances are. Going around in circles constantly feeling they go one way, then another, then back again, is not healthy.

Start discussing anything else really, from moveset ideas, to mario lore, to even other favorite games, but we’re better off atm not trying to “search for more clues” about whether his chance has went up, down, or stayed the same. We’re in April now, and we literally don’t have any more real news or even questionable leaks to go off of since...what? 3-4 months now? That goes for both good news and bad.

Some of y’all will drive yourselves mad trying to reanalyze the same info we’ve had for months now to see if something we missed pops up.

See now, this is what I was saying. You guys keep falling into pits of despair. You keep acting like Geno's chances are so low that they are practically sea level, which is ridiculous. Seriously, he's had more recognition than he ever has, stop moping around. Stop believing Erdrick has such a good chance when there is no evidence pointing towards his inclusion other than untrustworthy leakers, uneducated argumentative persons, and circumstances that offer no more likelihood than what can be offered for any other successful franchise (much like every fanbase does for every character desired in Smash, including us). Stop telling us to alter our expectations based on what you think and feel: if you want to be down and out about his chances, fine, but I'm not and I won't stand for having a bummer attitude at anything Nintendo announces because they always have something interesting in store for us.

Stop trying to guilt trip people for not buying a costume they didn't have interest in them or even implying that they are a less supportive fan than anybody who did buy the costume "Business Sense" does not constitute proof for any of your points that the sales of the Geno Mii costume in any way impacted the potential inclusion of Geno as a character. There's not a single thing to indicate that as the reality, especially when he was revealed well after the ballot had kicked off and THAT WAS positioned as the way for fans to express their interests in particular characters. Mii costumes were 100% positioned as additional DLC for those interested, nothing more.

Hoo boy, I can see all the likes and it would seem as though I got everyone in a tizzy, which is interesting as I tried to tell you all not to take it personally, but I suppose when you essentially say that if you didn't pay for content representing the character you want in the game that you may have actively damaged the character's chances of ever making it in the game...people would get upset about that. Here is the kicker, though: I'm not guilt-tripping anyone. If I was, I would be phrasing it in a way to make you all feel bad about it, which is not my intention: my intention is to point out that you may in fact have damaged Geno's chances by your actions. I remember when I was so blown away he was even acknowledged at all that I was like "I have to buy this costume! Not only will I use it occasionally, but I have to let them know this was a good decision overall." and I was convinced that other Geno fans out there would be just as elated and understanding...but some of you here are proof of the opposite, and if there are multiple fans here, that means there are even more out there who did not support this decision.

So to clarify, I bought the costume not only because I liked the Miis and wanted all the content, but also because it was a huge step forward towards getting the character I wanted into Smash, and by showing financial support and by talking about still wanting the character on social media I was convinced that Nintendo would understand that much more how badly we want him in the game as a playable character. Basically, by both buying the costume and continuing to support getting the character in Smash, it would be telling Nintendo 'This is good, now take the next step.'

Obviously I have no idea what decision Nintendo will make for Geno and whether sales of the costume are taken into consideration for said decision, but I do know that companies follow that pattern that I mentioned before, and I also know Sakurai thought Waluigi fans were fake. If Nintendo does look at those numbers for consideration and they are rather low, they could get the same idea. Keyword 'could', because once again, I have no idea for sure. Fan demand alone could be enough, but considering we have never been as strong as Ridley or K. Rool fans, it would have been nice to know that most fans supported this first step rather than potentially making it the last step.

Even if it was,

Nintendo absolutely made no mention of the sort, made no comment upon the Geno's future being dependent on this one Mii costume. Most of those campaigns and trials of the market are usually highlighted as such, and we've even seen Nintendo do this with Chibi-Robo in the past. They've mentioned fan demand needs to be expressed in situations in which they are evaluating the situation and fans should show support. Making a situation like that and then not telling the fans means that they inherently set up the situation so failure was the most likely outcome. Then Nintendo really hates us, but again, there's not a shred of proof for such an idea either.

Just because a company doesn't come out and say 'Hey, do you want this or not?' and make a poll on Twitter doesn't mean numbers won't be taken into consideration. We have to be honest with ourselves: despite being one of the last of the OG fanbases remaining, we are definitely the smallest. Banjo-Kazooie, Isaac, Bandanna Dee and Rayman? They all have way more fans than us, which makes sense, considering how little representation Geno got. B&K had two games (we don't talk about Nuts & Bolts) and inspired the genre to be better, BWD is a freaking Kirby character, Isaac has three games (even if he isn't in all of them, which I think he is?) and damn if Rayman hasn't been around for a long-ass time. Now look back and Geno and realize how ridiculous our request really is.

Now with our fanbase being smaller than the others and the sudden surge of Waluigi fans and the massive amount of votes for all the veterans to return, let's be honest with ourselves: there is no way in hell we made it all that high up on the ballot. In comparison, we could have had a lot, but no way we were anything ground-breaking versus K. Rool or Ridley. Hell, I bet even Simon and Bomberman got more votes!

So then Sakurai notes both the history of the fanbase and that he got votes that were 'a lot' so since he OBVIOUSLY was going to pick Cloud he decided to throw us a $0.75 bone. If the number of sales are substantially lower than the votes Geno got, it can easily lead to issues...especially when you bring in my next point.

It's a far more likely scenario that Sakurai went negotiating for the rights of a Final Fantasy character and knew going in that he was only going to be able to realize one character from Square for DLC. He specifically states, "I made sure he'd be a Mii costume so his fans would at least feel they got something." (https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016...ans-one-most-requested-smash-bros-characters/ ). That sounds a lot more to me like a director who knew the limitations of his current DLC cycle deciding to try and give the fans a gift, and nothing more than that. He couldn't make Geno a playable fighter during the Smash 4 DLC period, so he did the next best thing he could. And that's generally what all of the Mii costumes felt like, not test runs for the next Smash character. There's just nothing in his commentary on Geno to suggest any sense of urgency to the situation, so I disagree heavily that they positioned Mii costumes as such.

That's great and all that Sakurai did that for us, but I've got some news for you: Sakurai isn't the only one making DLC decisions anymore. Sure, he's still a part of the process and a big part of it, but he isn't fully in control of the selection process. It was a big enough change that he felt the need to make a Twitter post about it. I feel that if Sakurai was in full control, we could easily be seeing Geno coming as DLC. However, it's Nintendo making a list and giving it to Sakurai, and that list can have many different names on it with many different factors as to why...but the biggest deal is that they need to make Nintendo money. Geno being on that list is possible, sure, but Geno not being on that list because the costume didn't sell well? Also a complete possibility, especially when you consider that Persona 5 is coming to Switch, so Joker in Smash does push sales of something.

And that's not even getting into the principle of it. No, some of us who didn't buy the costume chose so not because of spite, but genuine disinterest and principle. We weren't interested in the product, so we didn't buy it. Or we didn't like the idea of Mii costumes and avoided buying them altogether since they're of no use to me. We as fans shouldn't have to pony up cash just to give our character a shot at the next game. Again, when you don't position anything as such, buying the costume has no value beyond the single dollar to Nintendo and your personal enjoyment of the costume. And if you don't like it, then you're basically gambling if this random minor item has any impact on Geno's chances.

Principle? As in 'a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.' kind of principle? What kind of principle is that, that if you don't want it you don't have to buy it? Well of course, duh. That doesn't change that fact that Geno's chances could be affected by the sales of the costume. Companies do NOT have to always come out and say 'Hey, here is this thing for you to buy, and if you don't buy it you won't get the real product you want.' because it's basic logic that companies make decisions with sales figures involved. What, do you expect them to NOT take into consideration how well or poorly something sold when discussing something related to that product? Are you trying to tell me that if Nintendo brought up the idea of Geno as DLC for Ultimate, they wouldn't bring up the sales figures of the Geno Mii costume to reference the potential active consumer base for the new product?

But beyond that, the Mii costume went against my principles as all Mii costumes do... I'm sorry, but I'm not abandoning my principles just to get Geno in like that. I've got a roster full of characters I love and many more I could potentially have, I'm not going to bend to a cooperation's will like that if they do take a character hostage and basically extort money out of the fans. No character or franchise is worth that to me. It's on the cooperation to make quality products, not me to specifically pay Nintendo for a chance to get my preferred characters in or otherwise. It's not like Nintendo can't afford to take a chance on a ****ing Smash DLC character of all things when the game's DLC has already been their historically highest selling DLC...

And again, I don't really buy this ridiculous narrative that Geno's future depended on the sales of this Mii costume to begin with or that we missed a chance to support him (If anything, it was just a chance for Sakurai to support us as fans and give us something for our love over the years). Especially when nobody actually knows the sales of Mii costumes and we can't make any statements on them since we have no evidence to work with.

So...what I'm getting here is that you don't really care if Geno gets in or not...just kidding, that's obviously not the take away here.

Honestly I agree that you shouldn't have to buy something you don't want to get what you do want, but the fact of the matter is that this is how companies tend to work: why not make some extra profit off selling a product that isn't what the consumers want but could lead to it if it sells well? Locking the fate of the consumer's desire behind a paywall and then having them pay for the product they actually wanted would be a genius way to make money. I don't think Nintendo would treat us like that, as they care about fun and the long-term, but I never implied Nintendo would try to scam us as much as I implied that sales figures for related products can play a heavy part on whether or not we get that other product.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Woof, that was DEFINITELY a touchy subject, but not one that shouldn't be discussed I don't think, just probably handled better than I did I suppose.

I'd change the subject to something else on Geno, but I swear we've basically talked about everything, so I guess I'll leave it with this:

Switch got an update roughly a day or so ago. Last time it got an update around a character's potential drop time, PP dropped a couple days after. I'm thinking we may in fact get another Shadow Drop with no official announcement. Don't expect a reveal guys, just a quick warning.

Regardless, WE'LL NEVER SEE IT COMING!

 

[Firox]

See now, this is what I was saying. You guys keep falling into pits of despair. You keep acting like Geno's chances are so low that they are practically sea level, which is ridiculous. Seriously, he's had more recognition than he ever has, stop moping around. Stop believing Erdrick has such a good chance when there is no evidence pointing towards his inclusion other than untrustworthy leakers, uneducated argumentative persons, and circumstances that offer no more likelihood than what can be offered for any other successful franchise (much like every fanbase does for every character desired in Smash, including us). Stop telling us to alter our expectations based on what you think and feel: if you want to be down and out about his chances, fine, but I'm not and I won't stand for having a bummer attitude at anything Nintendo announces because they always have something interesting in store for us.

Ok, your blind faith and self-righteousness are really adorable, but stop lumping me in with the mopier commenters. I, for one, wasn't saying that Geno didn't have a decent chance. He COULD get in. But there's also a chance that he won't. If you've got some magical insider trading info that you think proves that he's getting in, by all means, share it with the class. If not, just accept that some people lack your optimism. Again, not saying I don't, but some people. They're free to believe what they want. I mean, look at the hypocrisy of your comment: "Stop telling us to alter our expectations based on what you think and feel." THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING! Then you end your comment with the EXACT SAME thing I said by stating that we should be upbeat at anything Nintendo announces because they always have something interesting in store for us. I specifically said that by keeping our expectations in check, we would be able to be happy for whatever we get. Did I say "No Geno"? Did I say "Woah is us?" You don't even know what you're arguing about. Wanna be optimistic? Be my guest. Squeeze all the skittles you want out of that little rainbow of yours, but don't come in here picking fights as if your ill-based opinion means anything more than anybody else's. I think I speak for us all when I say we all love Geno here. Why else come to this thread? We all hope he gets in. There are lots of positive signs out there that he will, but nothing is written in stone yet so don't pretend like it is. Just let things play out and let the chips fall where they may. After all, it's only a game.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey. So I heard that fatmanonice said Steve is likely a red hearing from what he heard in private in this thread a week ago. is that true?

 

[Firox]

Hey. So I heard that fatmanonice said Steve is likely a red hearing from what he heard in private in this thread a week ago. is that true?

No way to know for sure, but one can hope.

 

[Deleted member]

No way to know for sure, but one can hope.

Well he said it on here

Oh, I didn't realize Mojang employees actually came out about Steve. I guess it's okay to share then that based on things I've seen in private in the past couple of weeks that, yeah, the chances of Steve and Minecraft content in general being red herrings is fairly high. I don't want to say it's totally not happening but it's not looking very likely anymore. As for DQ stuff, nobody has shared anything new and, like I said the other day, I strongly doubt a second character will be announced before E3 at this point. I feel like Nintendo's trying to set the table for another general Direct for late April but that's only conjecture on my part.

 

[ForsakenM]

Ok, your blind faith and self-righteousness are really adorable, but stop lumping me in with the mopier commenters. I, for one, wasn't saying that Geno didn't have a decent chance. He COULD get in. But there's also a chance that he won't. If you've got some magical insider trading info that you think proves that he's getting in, by all means, share it with the class. If not, just accept that some people lack your optimism. Again, not saying I don't, but some people. They're free to believe what they want. I mean, look at the hypocrisy of your comment: "Stop telling us to alter our expectations based on what you think and feel." THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING! Then you end your comment with the EXACT SAME thing I said by stating that we should be upbeat at anything Nintendo announces because they always have something interesting in store for us. I specifically said that by keeping our expectations in check, we would be able to be happy for whatever we get. Did I say "No Geno"? Did I say "Woah is us?" You don't even know what you're arguing about. Wanna be optimistic? Be my guest. Squeeze all the skittles you want out of that little rainbow of yours, but don't come in here picking fights as if your ill-based opinion means anything more than anybody else's. I think I speak for us all when I say we all love Geno here. Why else come to this thread? We all hope he gets in. There are lots of positive signs out there that he will, but nothing is written in stone yet so don't pretend like it is. Just let things play out and let the chips fall where they may. After all, it's only a game.

Mmm, you are getting awfully aggressive here, and you are assuming things and labeling me in that aggressive manner. Very much teetering on ad hominems, but at least you didn't just outright call me a jackass or anything.

Sure, you never said 'Geno is over, RIP us guys, let's all go sulk in a corner' or something to that effect...but your tone was rather negative and it most certainly was encouraging people to curb their enthusiasm and hopes.

I believe I have the exact quote actually.

'Funny, I don't seem to remember ever saying that "Geno's chances are slim to glum" (or slim to NONE). Stop assuming what other ppl believe. I was just saying that ppl need to keep their expectations in check regardless of who they're rooting for. I say this as a staunch Geno fan that's been disappointed FAR too many times to get on that roller coaster again. I do agree that if ever there was a time for Geno to get in, this is it. Doesn't have to be this particular fighter pass per se, but maybe the next two waves that I believe are coming. Still, given the last two decades of Smash bros newcomers, and the impossible task of predicting their inclusion, I realize that Geno could NOT get in just as easily as he COULD get in. The choice isn't mine to make. My point is to try and be happy for whatever we get. I'm not counting anybody out, just don't be too overly confident in something you couldn't possibly know.'

First off, there is overall a negative tone, though it's easy to see you were trying to show that you are neutral, but too much emphasis on being burned in the past makes it come off as if you are really just expecting to get hurt again and thus are assuming the worst while encouraging others to have a similar look at the outcome. Points for encouraging people to be happy about whatever comes out of it though, that's a rather good attitude.

Secondly, on the terms of hypocrisy, I'm not sure that really applies here. I'm not sure if you have noticed, but this thread bounces around emotionally A LOT, and it's mainly because people here listen to others outside of here who know very little of the speculation and are so assured that Geno has no chance based on reasons that hold no weight, yet our friends here take it to heart and the thread gets bogged down in depression until someone like myself drains the bog to highlight that fertile land beneath. Being telling people to stop believing everything that puts Geno down and telling them to not be so dreary about his chances, I'm simply encouraging them to be more positive about it. They don't have to believe he's in or that he's likely, but just be more positive and upbeat because, frankly, what is the point of this huge chuck of speculation time being spent expecting the worst? Imagine going through every day down in the dumps because of that mindset. No way Jose, I'd rather we be more upbeat and keep a happier tone regardless of our beliefs in the character's chances, but I'll admit that the easiest way to bring up good attitudes is a reminder of how much attention Geno has gotten in recent times and how this is good for his chances.

We also have a lot of people who come in here just to bring us down and people like you who tell us to temper our expectations which, frankly, is also a way of bringing us down if you REALLY think about it. It may be a nicer way to bring us down and is less of trying to make us upset and more like being level-headed, but it's bringing down attitudes nonetheless. You mention being overconfident, but all I see are people who are underlyconfident...this should be a word dammit!

So...it upsets you that we ultimately agree, yet reach that from different angles? That you force yourself to be tempered about Geno's chances so that you can enjoy whatever we get and I'm riding high on the Geno wave and can still appreciate anything we are given? That's not my problem man: it's not hard to be happy and optimistic as far as I'm concerned and you shouldn't have to reason with yourself to accept an outcome that you may not have wanted with positively. I do however acknowledge that I'm a rather positive person though and look at the bright side more often when not deluged with all the problems that exist in life.

And yes, I do know what I'm arguing about, though I will agree that your post isn't a prime example of the downer attitude around here, but it is a prime example of telling others to decrease the hype volumes when frankly that's all we got to keep us moving at the mo. I'm not pretending anything: we could get Goku for all I know and Sakurai could have actually lost his mind, and while I do have insider info it's most often 3rd or 4th hand and currently doesn't really pertain to Smash at all, so I don't share it and let the leakers do their thing. You are right, it is just a game. So...no reason to get upset about someone's approach to enjoying the reveal train of a game, right?

 

[Ovaltine]

No way Jose, I'd rather we be more upbeat and keep a happier tone regardless of our beliefs in the character's chances, but I'll admit that the easiest way to bring up good attitudes is a reminder of how much attention Geno has gotten in recent times and how this is good for his chances.

Not lodging myself into all the other stuff going on in this back-and-forth, but I've been adopting this more lately. I think it helps that I'm familiarizing more with DQ and I've warmed up a lot to Erdrick. (He's adorable. He's tiny. He's got a fem alt. I only hate the color scheme of his freaking SFC design. Sorry y'all, that magenta cape has GOT to go.) I've become a lot more chill... and I'm appreciating what Geno has been getting. He's been getting a lot of attention and affection, even if only in doses other people would consider small. He got a spirit in the base game when no other extra SE properties did beyond Mallow. He got his Mii costume in 4, which we're likely getting back as DLC again. He's gotten references outside of Smash from both NoA (the HQ quiz, tweets, etc.) and NoJ (the Super Mario-Kun segment, Smash and debatably Crafted World SMRPG references).

At the very least, he's getting acknowledged again and Nintendo knows we love him. That does my heart so good.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I wouldn't say Erdrick has no weight; the insiders have been very trustworthy to my knowledge, especially PolarPanda who, while not 100% on Erdrick, has mentioned something to the effect of him seeming very likely.

Now, no one here is all super doom-and-gloom and trying to make other people think like them, that Geno isn't gonna get in; no one is even saying he has no shot, everyone recognizes that he still has some sort-of chance. At least no one is directly telling someone "I just don't want Geno fans to be disappointed" when the same statement can apply to every character's fans; fans may get disappointed anyway, even if they do lower their expectations; and, in some cases, they may not actually care, as was apparent to me regarding someone who said this about Steve fans.

somehow I typed out stuff and I managed to erase it without noticing, but it's all there now.

 

[Firox]

Mmm, you are getting awfully aggressive here, and you are assuming things and labeling me in that aggressive manner. Very much teetering on ad hominems, but at least you didn't just outright call me a ******* or anything.

Sure, you never said 'Geno is over, RIP us guys, let's all go sulk in a corner' or something to that effect...but your tone was rather negative and it most certainly was encouraging people to curb their enthusiasm and hopes.

I believe I have the exact quote actually.

'Funny, I don't seem to remember ever saying that "Geno's chances are slim to glum" (or slim to NONE). Stop assuming what other ppl believe. I was just saying that ppl need to keep their expectations in check regardless of who they're rooting for. I say this as a staunch Geno fan that's been disappointed FAR too many times to get on that roller coaster again. I do agree that if ever there was a time for Geno to get in, this is it. Doesn't have to be this particular fighter pass per se, but maybe the next two waves that I believe are coming. Still, given the last two decades of Smash bros newcomers, and the impossible task of predicting their inclusion, I realize that Geno could NOT get in just as easily as he COULD get in. The choice isn't mine to make. My point is to try and be happy for whatever we get. I'm not counting anybody out, just don't be too overly confident in something you couldn't possibly know.'

First off, there is overall a negative tone, though it's easy to see you were trying to show that you are neutral, but too much emphasis on being burned in the past makes it come off as if you are really just expecting to get hurt again and thus are assuming the worst while encouraging others to have a similar look at the outcome. Points for encouraging people to be happy about whatever comes out of it though, that's a rather good attitude.

Secondly, on the terms of hypocrisy, I'm not sure that really applies here. I'm not sure if you have noticed, but this thread bounces around emotionally A LOT, and it's mainly because people here listen to others outside of here who know very little of the speculation and are so assured that Geno has no chance based on reasons that hold no weight, yet our friends here take it to heart and the thread gets bogged down in depression until someone like myself drains the bog to highlight that fertile land beneath. Being telling people to stop believing everything that puts Geno down and telling them to not be so dreary about his chances, I'm simply encouraging them to be more positive about it. They don't have to believe he's in or that he's likely, but just be more positive and upbeat because, frankly, what is the point of this huge chuck of speculation time being spent expecting the worst? Imagine going through every day down in the dumps because of that mindset. No way Jose, I'd rather we be more upbeat and keep a happier tone regardless of our beliefs in the character's chances, but I'll admit that the easiest way to bring up good attitudes is a reminder of how much attention Geno has gotten in recent times and how this is good for his chances.

We also have a lot of people who come in here just to bring us down and people like you who tell us to temper our expectations which, frankly, is also a way of bringing us down if you REALLY think about it. It may be a nicer way to bring us down and is less of trying to make us upset and more like being level-headed, but it's bringing down attitudes nonetheless. You mention being overconfident, but all I see are people who are underlyconfident...this should be a word dammit!

So...it upsets you that we ultimately agree, yet reach that from different angles? That you force yourself to be tempered about Geno's chances so that you can enjoy whatever we get and I'm riding high on the Geno wave and can still appreciate anything we are given? That's not my problem man: it's not hard to be happy and optimistic as far as I'm concerned and you shouldn't have to reason with yourself to accept an outcome that you may not have wanted with positively. I do however acknowledge that I'm a rather positive person though and look at the bright side more often when not deluged with all the problems that exist in life.

And yes, I do know what I'm arguing about, though I will agree that your post isn't a prime example of the downer attitude around here, but it is a prime example of telling others to decrease the hype volumes when frankly that's all we got to keep us moving at the mo. I'm not pretending anything: we could get Goku for all I know and Sakurai could have actually lost his mind, and while I do have insider info it's most often 3rd or 4th hand and currently doesn't really pertain to Smash at all, so I don't share it and let the leakers do their thing. You are right, it is just a game. So...no reason to get upset about someone's approach to enjoying the reveal train of a game, right?

First off, I obviously never used ad hominems, so I'm glad you could gather that much.

Secondly, I really don't care what you think of my tone, but seriously who are you to judge? I feel like your tone is negative towards anyone who disagrees with you. Doesn't make my point any less valid.

Thirdly, yes, as I stated with your own quote, you were being blatantly hypocritical. You criticize ppl for their beliefs on the premise that they act out of what they "think and feel", however, without any concrete evidence to back your claims, you are no better in any way shape or form. Hence, the hypocrite.

Lastly, no, it doesn't upset me in the least that we agree as to Geno's potential chances. The point flew right over your head. I'm not saying that people should abandon hope for Geno, however inflating expectations without evidence puts you right up there with the Grinch leakers. lol You think you're coming to the rescue and saving all the poor downcast Geno fans? Please get over yourself and stop confusing realism with cynicism. Provide something more tactile than your own opinion (or a 3rd hand opinion of a random contact that we can't trust) and I'd be glad to stoke the hype train's engine. I'd dump in the coal like you wouldn't believe, but only AFTER we have more to work with than speculation. Until then, all you have is blind optimism. It's nice to have, but not everybody needs you to force it on them.

 

[The Anigriffin]

...So if not buying the Mii Costume makes you a bad Geno fan what about those of us who didn’t vote for him in the ballot for differing reasons?

 

[Firox]

...So if not buying the Mii Costume makes you a bad Geno fan what about those of us who didn’t vote for him in the ballot for differing reasons?

It DID kinda suck that we could only vote for one character. I wish they could have had like a 1st, 2nd and 3rd pick.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Hoo boy, I can see all the likes and it would seem as though I got everyone in a tizzy, which is interesting as I tried to tell you all not to take it personally, but I suppose when you essentially say that if you didn't pay for content representing the character you want in the game that you may have actively damaged the character's chances of ever making it in the game...people would get upset about that. Here is the kicker, though: I'm not guilt-tripping anyone. If I was, I would be phrasing it in a way to make you all feel bad about it, which is not my intention: my intention is to point out that you may in fact have damaged Geno's chances by your actions. I remember when I was so blown away he was even acknowledged at all that I was like "I have to buy this costume! Not only will I use it occasionally, but I have to let them know this was a good decision overall." and I was convinced that other Geno fans out there would be just as elated and understanding...but some of you here are proof of the opposite, and if there are multiple fans here, that means there are even more out there who did not support this decision.

So to clarify, I bought the costume not only because I liked the Miis and wanted all the content, but also because it was a huge step forward towards getting the character I wanted into Smash, and by showing financial support and by talking about still wanting the character on social media I was convinced that Nintendo would understand that much more how badly we want him in the game as a playable character. Basically, by both buying the costume and continuing to support getting the character in Smash, it would be telling Nintendo 'This is good, now take the next step.'

Obviously I have no idea what decision Nintendo will make for Geno and whether sales of the costume are taken into consideration for said decision, but I do know that companies follow that pattern that I mentioned before, and I also know Sakurai thought Waluigi fans were fake. If Nintendo does look at those numbers for consideration and they are rather low, they could get the same idea. Keyword 'could', because once again, I have no idea for sure. Fan demand alone could be enough, but considering we have never been as strong as Ridley or K. Rool fans, it would have been nice to know that most fans supported this first step rather than potentially making it the last step.

Just because a company doesn't come out and say 'Hey, do you want this or not?' and make a poll on Twitter doesn't mean numbers won't be taken into consideration. We have to be honest with ourselves: despite being one of the last of the OG fanbases remaining, we are definitely the smallest. Banjo-Kazooie, Isaac, Bandanna Dee and Rayman? They all have way more fans than us, which makes sense, considering how little representation Geno got. B&K had two games (we don't talk about Nuts & Bolts) and inspired the genre to be better, BWD is a freaking Kirby character, Isaac has three games (even if he isn't in all of them, which I think he is?) and damn if Rayman hasn't been around for a long-*** time. Now look back and Geno and realize how ridiculous our request really is.

Now with our fanbase being smaller than the others and the sudden surge of Waluigi fans and the massive amount of votes for all the veterans to return, let's be honest with ourselves: there is no way in hell we made it all that high up on the ballot. In comparison, we could have had a lot, but no way we were anything ground-breaking versus K. Rool or Ridley. Hell, I bet even Simon and Bomberman got more votes!

So then Sakurai notes both the history of the fanbase and that he got votes that were 'a lot' so since he OBVIOUSLY was going to pick Cloud he decided to throw us a $0.75 bone. If the number of sales are substantially lower than the votes Geno got, it can easily lead to issues...especially when you bring in my next point.

So...what I'm getting here is that you don't really care if Geno gets in or not...just kidding, that's obviously not the take away here.

Honestly I agree that you shouldn't have to buy something you don't want to get what you do want, but the fact of the matter is that this is how companies tend to work: why not make some extra profit off selling a product that isn't what the consumers want but could lead to it if it sells well? Locking the fate of the consumer's desire behind a paywall and then having them pay for the product they actually wanted would be a genius way to make money. I don't think Nintendo would treat us like that, as they care about fun and the long-term, but I never implied Nintendo would try to scam us as much as I implied that sales figures for related products can play a heavy part on whether or not we get that other product.
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Woof, that was DEFINITELY a touchy subject, but not one that shouldn't be discussed I don't think, just probably handled better than I did I suppose.

My biggest problem with what you're saying is that it relies upon a lot of speculation as to how Nintendo handles things. The problem is "business sense" starts to go out the window when you start considering a lot of Smash. Ultimate shouldn't exist in today's economic climate to begin with. Nintendo and Sakurai have created a game that goes against all conventional business wisdom to make something special. Nintendo regularly does not play by the traditional rules of business. Iwata took a paycut when Nintendo was struggling, something most Westerns CEOs wouldn't even be able to dream of. They have a history of taking major risks and making unconventional decisions. I just don't think you can apply the same lens of business sense to Nintendo and have it be much of a legitimate point. They're a company with a beloved legacy and the capital to make all kinds of different things happen and take risks that may not always seem great on paper. Tons of people have tried for years to use conventional metrics to analyze Nintendo's decision making and it has failed with quite a degree of regularity. We have no idea where they draw certain lines or not for a lot of issues.

And regardless of the intention of "guilt-tripping" or not, your initial statements on that matter very much reflect a tone of such. I mean you're calling Geno fans out for "a lack of support," so I don't think that's ever going to come off positively or even neutral. The whole, "Seriously you guys don't get it and it pisses me off" is hard to interpret in a positive manner. Similarly, "You wasted a chance to support your BOI." Those sorts of statements are not neutral language in the least bit. Especially when people do not agree with your stance on how much an impact the Mii costume actually had on the whole issue of Geno in the game.

I'll address some more specific parts of your post from here on out:

Principle? As in 'a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.' kind of principle? What kind of principle is that, that if you don't want it you don't have to buy it? Well of course, duh. That doesn't change that fact that Geno's chances could be affected by the sales of the costume. Companies do NOT have to always come out and say 'Hey, here is this thing for you to buy, and if you don't buy it you won't get the real product you want.' because it's basic logic that companies make decisions with sales figures involved. What, do you expect them to NOT take into consideration how well or poorly something sold when discussing something related to that product? Are you trying to tell me that if Nintendo brought up the idea of Geno as DLC for Ultimate, they wouldn't bring up the sales figures of the Geno Mii costume to reference the potential active consumer base for the new product?

Yes, that basic principle was one part that I was trying to highlight in my commentary. But the other was a principle against the nickel and dime-ing practices of major companies that sell cosmetics in microtransactions. Given how far most of the industry has devolved into using these practices, I think it's completely reasonable to take a stance against them. They're the epitome of greedy behavior and don't provide tangible benefit or variety to gameplay experiences. Now, not everybody agrees with that stance on in-game cosmetics, but I do think the fact that there were 59 goddamn cosmetic costumes sold to us in a full $60 game with another $45 of character and stage DLC (accounting for only one of the two versions of the game, there's another $11 worth of purchasing if you decide to buy DLC for both versions of the game). You're talking about $45 worth of Mii costume DLC (again, if you decide to buy for both versions of the game, it's roughly $68 since Mii costumes are priced at $1.15 there instead of $0.75). That's one of the more predatory angles Nintendo has ever taken in their console releases, and I think there's a legitimate point to be fundamentally against that in principle. I understand they bought the rights to many of these characters and so on, but again, it's cosmetic DLC and most of us know where we fall on the sides of that argument.

You're right companies do not HAVE to come out and say what they're doing. But I did point out that Nintendo specifically and game companies as of recent have generally done a better job communicating that to the player bases. You talk of the logic there, what better business strategy do you have than creating an increased demand for your product by revealing information that makes consumers more likely to buy it? You mention this to some degree in your post, but it would be a dumb tactic to just completely fail on creating that demand by riling fans up, and you know if they had said that outright said it, they would have made many more sales. Also, Sakurai has generally been pretty upfront about all of the issues surrounding Smash and tried his best to let us down gently when it comes to a lot of things. I imagine he would have expressed the importance of the situation if that was a more serious consideration into the future rather than a casual, "Hey guys, I have a present for you because this is the best I can do right now." He's easily one of the most communicative developers I've ever seen in the industry.

And I'm not saying they wouldn't look at the sells of Mii costumes, I just don't think that would be enough to really sink a proverbial Geno ship. The ballot was positioned as the place for fans to express their interest and I generally lean more towards the ballot results influencing the creation of some Mii costumes in the first place. And again, Nintendo has to expect lower sales and income across the board from Mii costumes as opposed to characters and stages. I just don't think you'd look so exclusively at a single point of reference like that which is also problematic on multiple levels of indicating fan demand. Yes, it the only monetary reference Nintendo may have specifically for Geno, but any good analyst would also consider the situation a little more than that I would hope and be able to identify problems with the product versus its overall sales.

Just because a company doesn't come out and say 'Hey, do you want this or not?' and make a poll on Twitter doesn't mean numbers won't be taken into consideration. We have to be honest with ourselves: despite being one of the last of the OG fanbases remaining, we are definitely the smallest. Banjo-Kazooie, Isaac, Bandanna Dee and Rayman? They all have way more fans than us, which makes sense, considering how little representation Geno got. B&K had two games (we don't talk about Nuts & Bolts) and inspired the genre to be better, BWD is a freaking Kirby character, Isaac has three games (even if he isn't in all of them, which I think he is?) and damn if Rayman hasn't been around for a long-*** time. Now look back and Geno and realize how ridiculous our request really is.

Now with our fanbase being smaller than the others and the sudden surge of Waluigi fans and the massive amount of votes for all the veterans to return, let's be honest with ourselves: there is no way in hell we made it all that high up on the ballot. In comparison, we could have had a lot, but no way we were anything ground-breaking versus K. Rool or Ridley. Hell, I bet even Simon and Bomberman got more votes!

That's generally a lot less optimism than I usually see from you with regards to Geno. Those other characters have additional issues that may complicate how they place too. Banjo Kazooie, while now much beloved, wasn't exactly a thought in most people's minds til Phil Spencer tweeted about him and revived interest, so he may have had some trouble initially getting the momentum around the ballot and a LOT of people still struggled with the fact he was owned by Microsoft. Isaac didn't really have the seniority factor and didn't have nearly the momentum he maybe ought to have going into the ballot either. Bandanna Dee potentially could suffer from a lack of interest or involvement from Sakurai's input regardless of fan input. Rayman also has an embarrassingly meager presence in Japan and really hasn't done super well in the States when you look at things despite his history. Sure, Geno suffers from not being as popular during Smash 4 times as well, but that's my point. There are so many factors at play that we can't really make much of a statement against or for Geno versus certain others. He polled well with the fans, but we've discussed how those results can be problematic. Of those characters, Geno is also the only one Sakurai has specifically spoken on, so that potentially gives him a leg-up in these matters. They are just as likely to not be a part of Nintendo's list as Geno really for various reasons or just not even be picked by Sakurai.

And what's the point in making conclusions about the fan ballot when we don't know the results? It's probably reasonable to speculate and say we probably weren't first, but where we landed on the poll could really be damn well anywhere and especially against Bomberman and Simon I don't think there's a lot to really back up that specific claim. We also don't know if Ridley was severely hampered in the poll by his place in Smash 4 or not for example. There's just way too many unknowns.

That's great and all that Sakurai did that for us, but I've got some news for you: Sakurai isn't the only one making DLC decisions anymore. Sure, he's still a part of the process and a big part of it, but he isn't fully in control of the selection process. It was a big enough change that he felt the need to make a Twitter post about it. I feel that if Sakurai was in full control, we could easily be seeing Geno coming as DLC. However, it's Nintendo making a list and giving it to Sakurai, and that list can have many different names on it with many different factors as to why...but the biggest deal is that they need to make Nintendo money. Geno being on that list is possible, sure, but Geno not being on that list because the costume didn't sell well? Also a complete possibility, especially when you consider that Persona 5 is coming to Switch, so Joker in Smash does push sales of something.

See, this is one of the areas I think that people push the most and has the least ground. The whole "they need to make Nintendo" money angle falls pretty flat when a lot of consumers just buy all of the major content released for a game, especially in a season pass situation where they buy all the content upfront without knowing the additional ones. Smash characters are just going to be money-makers largely regardless of who they are and I genuinely believe that. As long as they have some degree of hype behind them (Fan requests, major characters of respective franchises, big name third parties, etc.), they will sale and make Nintendo money. I'm sure "Nintendo proper" has their own ideas about where to take Smash, but they know they'll make money as long as they don't overall piss off too many people. Geno's name being around a community for a decade plus should give an indication of him as profitable or one of the notable fan requests. Everything is a possibility naturally, but again, the Mii costume is just one more wrinkle to the overall situation. Nintendo should have the expectation that Mii costumes naturally sale less than characters and stages because they are less important content with less value to the consumer.

We just genuinely don't know what those sales look like in the grand scheme of things. If anything I would suspect all of the fan requests across the board to have sold the best versus something like the Chocobo hat. Because of the exact reason you've highlighted and a perception of supporting Geno. Did he sell as well as King K. Rool for example? Who the hell knows? Did King K. Rool's Mii costume determine his inclusion in Ultimate, or did his popularity on the polls influence his existence as a Mii costume? Again, who the hell knows?

Also, saying, "I've got news for you" still comes off a little harsh as I think we're all completely aware that Nintendo provided Sakurai with some unknown list of DLC that he decided upon. We're on SmashBoards here, give us a little credit haha.

It's one thing to position the argument as hey, maybe Mii costumes had an impact on whether or not certain characters got into the game and start that conversation. I think that is to some degree what you intended and I certainly respect that, while completely disagreeing for a lot of the reasons I've already listed. But I do think that you probably didn't handle those initial comments as neutrally as you intended and I do see some clear resentment towards fans who didn't buy the costume, and that's just how you interpret the situation.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I remember voting for multiple characters in the Ballot, but I don't recall voting for Geno as I don't think I was really aware of him at the time. It didn't restrict me from voting again, so I just voted 3-4 more times, each vote for a different character, thinking with the excuse "these could be for my family members" since it did ask to "please only vote once per person" or something. I only remember voting for Ice Climbers, Banjo-Kazooie, Chorus Kids (I used "Chorus Men" at the time), and Gengar, though I may have voted for one more...it may have been Steve.

 

[The Anigriffin]

It DID kinda suck that we could only vote for one character. I wish they could have had like a 1st, 2nd and 3rd pick.

I remember I used someone else’s laptop just so I could cheat and vote for both Claus and Ninten.

 

[EarlTamm]

I voted for Shantae. I still liked Geno back then, I was just not that involved with the community.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

King K. Rool got my vote because he was my biggest fan pick and I thought Ridley was dead because of Pyrosphere. Quite happy with how those specific situations turned out and feel ridiculously lucky that I got my four of my most wanted characters from base Smash 4 speculation by now (Shulk, Mewtwo, Ridley, and King K. Rool with an extra Simon Belmont that I didn't prioritize, but really wanted to see as well).

 

[egaddmario]

A while back there was some Corrin talk/badmouthing. Y'all acting like if Corrin wasn't Smash 4 DLC, (s)he wouldn't have been a newcomer this game? Fire Emblem has gotten new reps each game since the series joined Smash. It was inevitable (s)he would get in, since she was the newest protagonist of a fully new Fire Emblem game.