Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior #Geno4Smash - Everyone's gotta do their part! Vote Geno

[DarkKry4]

So...Ness? He appeared in a single game, which was largely obscure and only had a "strong cult" following(much akin to SMRPG). And yet he made the cut in the original roster, which was the smallest and therefore by definition the hardest to get into.

It was only since his inclusion into the Smash series that most people had ever heard of him.

The fact that Geno may technically be a third party changes this very minorly. He was made in a contract on a Nintendo game for a Nintendo console in a Nintendo world standing next to Nintendo's icon, Mario. Nintendo will weigh him the same as any other 'Nintendo' character.

He's really not as hard a sell as most people think.

Does Geno really compare to Megaman? The answer is no. Hes not gonna be in this game. Sorry, just had to say it.

A third party party character in smash should actually be, you know, iconic.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Does Geno really compare to Megaman? The answer is no. Hes not gonna be in this game. Sorry, just had to say it.

A third party party character in smash should actually be, you know, iconic.

Except he's a Mario character.

 

[DarkKry4]

Except he's a Mario character.

Except hes not. Hes owned by Square Enix. Thats like saying Sonic is a mario character because he was in the mario olympic games spinoff.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Except hes not. Hes owned by Square Enix. Thats like saying Sonic is a mario character because he was in the mario olympic games spinoff.

He is a Mario character

 

[DarkKry4]

He is a Mario character

okay. Live in LaLa-land then. He won't be in Smash.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

okay. Live in lalaland then. He won't be in Smash.

I'm sorry, I didn't know you were some kind of psychic

or time travel

 

[DarkKry4]

I'm sorry, I didn't know you were some kind of psychic

or time travel

No. I just have this thing called common sense. He will never be in this game

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

No. I just have this thing called common sense. He will never be in this game

I think you have something called ignorant and a smug ass attitude

 

[DarkKry4]

I think you have something called ignorant and a smug *** attitude

Wow. Thats not very nice.

Megaman and Sonic, as 3rd party characters, have sold millions of games and have many releases under their belts. They've made so much history in gaming. What has Geno accomplished, as a 3rd party character, other than be in one non-canonical mario spinoff? Waluigi is an actual nintendo character and appeared in way more mario spinoffs (of which sold millions) and was still regulated to assist trophy status. Geno can't even be a sticker because of his unimportant 3rd party status. Sorry but thats just the truth.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

He'd get in as a Mario character.

He was always listed as a Mario character on Sakurai's polls

He's a Mario character first

 

[Deleted member]

Only "poll" Sakurai made where Geno was listed as a Mario character was the pre-Melee poll. Every other time, all characters were not listed by series.

In the same poll, Wario was listed as a Mario character. He was a Wario character in Brawl rather than a Mario one.
Kamek and Baby Mario were listed as Mario characters despite being indigenous to the Yoshi games (at the time).
Foreman Spike was not listed as a Mario character, but a "Wrecking Crew" character. Come Brawl, we get the Golden Hammer from Wrecking Crew. But rather than being treated otherwise like Spike, it's labeled as a Mario item in Brawl.

So no, there is nothing that states Geno would be labeled as a Mario character. In fact, it would be better if he was his own thing. Since he essentially is.

Now, being treated like a 3rd Party character is another demon in itself. It doesn't seem Sakurai considers Geno a 3rd Party; he stated Mega Man was the second most requested 3rd Party after Sonic for Brawl, but I'm willing to bet Geno was more requested than Mega Man, if past poll data and ChronoBound's speculation findings are anything to go by. This means that Geno, regardless of his legal ties to Square, is seen as a Nintendo character by Sakurai. This is doubly so when one considers that Geno and Mallow were lumped with all Mario-related franchises rather than with characters like Sonic, Mega Man, Chocobo, Doraemon, etc. on the pre-Melee poll.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Geno's third party but he's still a Mario character because he originated in a Mario game. This isn't a difficult concept; he's clearly both.

Add in: Golden brings up a fantastic point. Geno and Mallow were both categorized as Mario characters in the Melee poll results so unless his views have changed (which we don't have any evidence of) this is how he views them.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Damn it, I was almost about to tell PsychoIncarnate and DarkKry4 to break it up over what they said last evening. It's the moderator in me. :X

And yes, Geno is a Mario character created for Super Mario RPG by Square Enix, like how Waluigi is a Mario character created by Camelot I guess. Just because he was made by a different company doesn't mean he isn't a Mario character.

Also, epic site campaign update: I managed to find some better hosting that hopefully won't cause mailing problems. This project has been taking entirely far too long. We should do some social media stuff to pass the time. Maybe someone could make a page on Thunderclap.it or we could spam Square's facebook or something.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Personally, I'd like for Nintendo to simply buy the rights to the original SMRPG characters (since all together they probably cost $10.75) and just take over from there. I think Geno and Mallow would be nice additions to the Mario and Luigi games, and while we're add it, how about bringing back some of the past Paper Mario partners, eh Nintendo?

 

[StaffofSmashing]

I see Geno having a lot of potential. Rumor has it that the 3rd time Brawl was delayed was because Geno WAS in the game, but Square decided to remove him from the roster at the last minute.

I'm making a moveset for Geno, but I'll post it later.

 

[kiteinthesky]

I see Geno having a lot of potential. Rumor has it that the 3rd time Brawl was delayed was because Geno WAS in the game, but Square decided to remove him from the roster at the last minute.

I'm making a moveset for Geno, but I'll post it later.

Is there any actual evidence behind that rumor? I thought all people found was a music track called Mushroom Forest on the SSBB disc, and that it could've been for the forest song from Mario Party. :/

 

[Deleted member]

Rumor is false.

When Sakurai decided upon Brawl's roster in July 2005, there was no reason to believe Sakurai even considered Geno, since his popularity didn't shoot up until after Brawl's trailer at E3 2006.
The only late addition was Sonic in early 2007 due to sheer fan demand (being the most requested character bar none) and because of late negotiations with Sega.

Geno never had any chance for Brawl. However, the fact Geno had notable requests and popularity in Brawl's time could give him a chance this time.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Is there any actual evidence behind that rumor? I thought all people found was a music track called Mushroom Forest on the SSBB disc, and that it could've been for the forest song from Mario Party. :/

Nope. The reason for the first delay seems to have been caused by complications with the game's online and the second delay (for the US and Europe) was caused by trying to have enough copies ready for launch day.

 

[NessOnett]

Except hes not. Hes owned by Square Enix. Thats like saying Sonic is a mario character because he was in the mario olympic games spinoff.

Because someone who has had their own decades long franchise is definitely comparable to someone who has ONLY been featured in Mario games.

Square was contracted by Nintendo for that game. Nintendo, being the publisher and the setting taking place in Nintendo's IP of 'mario world,' means that legally Geno is Nintendo's. Learn your law. He's not considered a third party. Even if Nintendo may have to achieve a legal accord with SE, he's still Nintendo's.


Have you ever heard of Game Freak? They are a private second party developer who develops games exclusively for Nintendo consoles. And if you keep reading under Nintendo's list of second party developers(those developers who when they are being published by Nintendo create intellectual property legally belonging to Nintendo), you will see a company known as 'Sqare Enix.' So Geno has the same legal standing as Pichu, Pikachu, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Squirle, Ivysaur, and Charizard...but none of them have ever been in a smash game, have they?

This is the same reason Rare, being a second party developing independently and published BY Nintendo left behind their IPs of Starfox and DK when they left Nintendo. Which is why Nintendo can still use those characters.


This is how second parties work. They are different from third parties.


(edit: I said 'may' in my previous post, because I hadn't checked the legal standing of the case. But now I have. He was developed as a second party. Not a third.)

 

[kiteinthesky]

Have you ever heard of Game Freak? They are a private second party developer who develops games exclusively for Nintendo consoles. And if you keep reading under Nintendo's list of second party developers(those developers who when they are being published by Nintendo create intellectual property legally belonging to Nintendo), you will see a company known as 'Sqare Enix.' So Geno has the same legal standing as Pichu, Pikachu, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Squirle, Ivysaur, and Charizard...but none of them have ever been in a smash game, have they?

But the credits of Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga specifically say that Square Enix owns the copyright to Geno.

 

[Reznor]

Because someone who has had their own decades long franchise is definitely comparable to someone who has ONLY been featured in Mario games.

Square was contracted by Nintendo for that game. Nintendo, being the publisher and the setting taking place in Nintendo's IP of 'mario world,' means that legally Geno is Nintendo's. Learn your law. He's not considered a third party. Even if Nintendo may have to achieve a legal accord with SE, he's still Nintendo's.


Have you ever heard of Game Freak? They are a private second party developer who develops games exclusively for Nintendo consoles. And if you keep reading under Nintendo's list of second party developers(those developers who when they are being published by Nintendo create intellectual property legally belonging to Nintendo), you will see a company known as 'Sqare Enix.' So Geno has the same legal standing as Pichu, Pikachu, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Squirle, Ivysaur, and Charizard...but none of them have ever been in a smash game, have they?

This is the same reason Rare, being a second party developing independently and published BY Nintendo left behind their IPs of Starfox and DK when they left Nintendo. Which is why Nintendo can still use those characters.


This is how second parties work. They are different from third parties.


(edit: I said 'may' in my previous post, because I hadn't checked the legal standing of the case. But now I have. He was developed as a second party. Not a third.)

Geno belongs to Square Enix it says so in Super Star Saga like kiteinthesky said

 

[Deleted member]

DK and StarFox were never Rare's IPs to begin with.

As for Geno, M&L: Superstar Saga clearly states that his rights belong to Square-Enix.

Not only that, but the Pokémon example doesn't work.
Pokémon is 2/3 owned by Nintendo. Or did you forget that Pokémon is Nintendo/Game Freak/Creatues Inc.? Creatures Inc. is a subsidiary of Nintendo.

 

[NessOnett]

Not only that, but the Pokémon example doesn't work.
Pokémon is 2/3 owned by Nintendo. Or did you forget that Pokémon is Nintendo/Game Freak/Creatues Inc.? Creatures Inc. is a subsidiary of Nintendo.

That is my point. Game Freak ISN'T a subsidiary of Nintendo. It's legal status is 'private developer.' It has no direct tie to Nintendo. It is just published exclusively through them.Game Freak made Pokemon(long before Creatures was in the picture), but since they were contracted by Nintendo to make it, the IP belongs to Nintendo which is why they freely use it. Which is how a second party works.

________________________________________________________________________
Game Freak, Inc. (Japanese: 株式会社ゲームフリーク Kabushiki gaisha Game Freak) is a Japanese game development company founded on April 26, 1989 by Satoshi Tajiri, Ken Sugimori, and Junichi Masuda, and the main company responsible for the Pokémon games, most especially the main series versions.
Originally independent, since the release of Pokémon Red and Green in 1996, Game Freak has been a second-party developer for Nintendo, developing games exclusively for their hardware while remaining a separate company. The company currently employs a staff of 71 as of April 2011[1], while Satoshi Tajiri serves as its current CEO. Its headquarters are on the 22nd floor of the Carrot Tower in Setagaya, Tokyo, Japan.
_________________________________________________________________________

Creatures, formerly Ape, is the company behind spinoffs of Pokemon, but more importantly in this instance they own Ness. That is why they are listed as copyright for the smash series. They are the subsidiary of Nintendo, which makes them a first party. Meaning they ARE Nintendo, as opposed to a separate entity working FOR Nintendo.

To round out the differentiation, we have third parties. Which are IPs that are both Developed AND Published by people who aren't Nintendo. And then released for Nintendo systems. Like Megaman. Who was developed by Capcom, and published by Capcom. No direct Nintendo involvement.


So regardless of legal loopholes(which are always a pain, breaking the rules and such). Geno is considered a "second party character" by Nintendo. Not a third party. Even if he were to technically be owned by Square. As I said originally. That minor hitch wouldn't stop Nintendo from considering him as they would any other second party. If it did, we'd have never seen him make a cameo in SSG.

 

[kiteinthesky]

This entire debate is asinine because there's nothing stopping Nintendo from approaching Square about getting Geno in a Smash game, or people at some other company pulling strings to make it happen the way they did to get Geno in M&L:SS anyway. All they (apparently) lack is will. But that's what we gamers are for; to light a fire under their asses.

 

[N3ON]

This entire debate is asinine because there's nothing stopping Nintendo from approaching Square about getting Geno in a Smash game, or people at some other company pulling strings to make it happen the way they did to get Geno in M&L:SS anyway. All they (apparently) lack is will. But that's what we gamers are for; to light a fire under their *****.

Just because there's nothing stopping Nintendo from approaching Square doesn't mean they'll actually work out the terms to use Geno (SE is notoriously fussy about their characters), or that Nintendo has any inclination to approach Square over Geno in the first place. Just because it happened once ten years ago doesn't mean it can just happen again effortlessly.

 

[Reznor]

This entire debate is asinine because there's nothing stopping Nintendo from approaching Square about getting Geno in a Smash game, or people at some other company pulling strings to make it happen the way they did to get Geno in M&L:SS anyway. All they (apparently) lack is will. But that's what we gamers are for; to light a fire under their *****.

why does nintendo have to go out of their way to get a mario rpg rep when they have a ton of their own from games that sold better

 

[kiteinthesky]

Just because there's nothing stopping Nintendo from approaching Square doesn't mean they'll actually work out the terms to use Geno (SE is notoriously fussy about their characters), or that Nintendo has any inclination to approach Square over Geno in the first place. Just because it happened once ten years ago doesn't mean it can just happen again effortlessly.

That's what I mean when I say the only thing that's stopping them is the will to do so. That's usually what the entire debate about Geno hangs around, people arguing over whether Square would do this or that or whether Nintendo would bother, etc. The truth is that we don't know what they're up to and people are making false assumptions on their motives or plans because of that.

It reminds me of the people who would say that Megaman would never get into a Smash game because Capcom didn't put him in MvC3 and basically left the entire franchise out to dry... but then E3 2013 happened. Hell, it was probably Capcom's plan to save Megaman for Smash all along. Who knows what kind of back-door shenanigans Nintendo and Square could be up to.

 

[DarkKry4]

So regardless of legal loopholes(which are always a pain, breaking the rules and such). Geno is considered a "second party character" by Nintendo. Not a third party. Even if he were to technically be owned by Square. As I said originally. That minor hitch wouldn't stop Nintendo from considering him as they would any other second party. If it did, we'd have never seen him make a cameo in SSG.

Dude. There is hardly any notoriety behind Geno. Hes just too random and unimportant to be added to smash. There are no technicalities behind it. Hes owned by Square Enix and NOT nintendo. Plain and simple.

Sure he has some fan demand but thats it really.

 

[N3ON]

That's what I mean when I say the only thing that's stopping them is the will to do so. That's usually what the entire debate about Geno hangs around, people arguing over whether Square would do this or that or whether Nintendo would bother, etc. The truth is that we don't know what they're up to and people are making false assumptions on their motives or plans because of that.

Yes, the only thing stopping Nintendo approaching SE is their will to do so or not do so (though for all we know the two have indeed talked before about Geno in Smash - unlikely, but possible), but the only thing stopping Geno from being in Smash being the will of Nintendo? Hardly. There are many more factors than that to get a third-party into Smash. We don't even know if Sakurai cares about Geno enough to bother going through all that effort for a character not like Snake, Sonic, or Mega Man, but a relatively obscure and unheard of one. That's besides the point though, all I'm saying is that it's much more difficult than Nintendo just saying, "Hey, can we use Geno?".

It reminds me of the people who would say that Megaman would never get into a Smash game because Capcom didn't put him in MvC3 and basically left the entire franchise out to dry... but then E3 2013 happened. Hell, it was probably Capcom's plan to save Megaman for Smash all along. Who knows what kind of back-door shenanigans Nintendo and Square could be up to.

To be fair those reasons are and were pretty dumb, but regardless Mega Man and Geno can't really be said to even be in similar positions. It makes sense for Nintendo to go out of their way to obtain Mega Man, and pay a decent amount to Capcom for him. Geno? Not so much.

And I doubt it would be Capcom's plan to cancel Mega Man's games, deny themselves money and piss off their fans just so they could stick him in a game made by another company which is only going to be on Nintendo systems. That's not Capcom's "gimme money" style.

 

[BluePikmin11]

God drawing by Erick.

 

[FZ64]

That's about it, and whoa I'm posting something for once

 

[FZ64]

Woops sorry 2X post

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

God drawing by Erick.

Putting in OP

Now THIS is the kind of Geno thread I'm talking about.

Miiverse has been the best thing ever for this kind of stuff

 

[Hoots]

To be honest, Sakurai's comments about Third Parties made me pretty wary about the 2 third parties I want the most in Smash (Layton and Geno). If he only wants absolutely legendary third party characters, chances are we'll just end up with Megaman and Pacman this time around. HOWEVER, I think there's something to be said about whether or not Sakurai would consider Geno third party in the same regard that he considers Pacman a third party. He could very well consider him just a Mario character.

Granted, that doesn't matter in the slightest if Square-Enix makes it difficult for Sakurai (which they probably would because they have literally nothing to gain from such an arrangement). However, if Square made it easy for him and didn't really care too much about what they did with Geno, I could see it happening.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I disagree; Square Enix would gain a share of the profits of the two Smash games because they own Geno's copyright. As I mentioned earlier, they'd basically be making money off a character that's been sitting in a filing cabinet for nearly two decades. That being said, it would be the equivalent selling a toy from your childhood on eBay for 50 bucks, it's not an astronomical amount but you'd still gain something out of the arrangement.

 

[Hoots]

I disagree; Square Enix would gain a share of the profits of the two Smash games because they own Geno's copyright. As I mentioned earlier, they'd basically be making money off a character that's been sitting in a filing cabinet for nearly two decades. That being said, it would be the equivalent selling a toy from your childhood on eBay for 50 bucks, it's not an astronomical amount but you'd still gain something out of the arrangement.

Well, it honestly depends on how much of a cut Nintendo is willing to give. Generally, the biggest boon from something like a third party character inclusion is the massive exposure of the character, which would ideally be used to promote other properties including that character as well. Smash Bros is one of the best game marketing tools in history. You can already see that Nintendo is using this to great success, announcing Villager at the release of New Leaf and Olimar at the release of Pikmin 3.

Geno will most likely never be featured prominently in another game (unless by some miracle, SMRPG2 gets made), so Square-Enix is getting no marketing value whatsoever. Although Megaman doesn't have any (or many?) games coming out at the moment, the amount of brand recognition they will build from Smash 4 is going to be enormous. I would bet that it will create a whole new generation of Megaman fans, which is a massive audience increase to sell future inevitable Megaman games to. Unfortunately, Geno doesn't have this opportunity.

You also have to consider the fact that there WILL be a cost to them. If they undoubtedly want to work closely with Nintendo to implement Geno in Smash, there would probably be an entire team dedicated to working with Sakurai's team, not to mention the lawyers needed to hammer out the rights. These are all company resources that will need to be budgeted, and if they don't get a big enough cut, I could see them not seeing the value in going through with it.

Regardless, I really hope I'm wrong. Geno is in my top 5 most wanted newcomers. However, I think this is the biggest issue facing Geno, NOT lack of recent appearances, weakening support, or no importance in the Mario franchise.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Which I guess is what it all boils down to: whether Square Enix isn't too greedy and Nintendo's isn't too stingy. I'd like to think both companies would be able to reach a reasonable agreement akin to what they probably reached for his cameo in Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga but, once again, it really is a matter of if Nintendo bothers to approach Square Enix to begin with.

 

[Groose]

Which I guess is what it all boils down to: whether Square Enix isn't too greedy and Nintendo's isn't too stingy. I'd like to think both companies would be able to reach a reasonable agreement akin to what they probably reached for his cameo in Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga but, once again, it really is a matter of if Nintendo bothers to approach Square Enix to begin with.

I'd love to see Geno, don't get me wrong. But there is an inherent difference between a cameo and a major playable appearence. Square Enix probably didn't really mind if their character was used in something as minor as a cameo; Nintendo probably wouldn't have offered them much of anything even if Sqaure Enix asked for it because the part was too minor. For a cameo, you don't need cash; you don't need promotion; you need diplomacy.

But I really don't see diplomacy alone cutting it for a major playable appearance. Promotion may warrant such a deal, but alas---Square has no reason to promote Geno. So that leaves one way----cash. I don't think Nintendo will go that route. I don't think Nintendo should go that route. But when it comes down to it; I'd be really glad if they did go that route.

 

[DraginHikari]

Geno is a character I never really got personally. As much as I love Super Mario RPG, I never found Geno particularly interesting character wise outside of the whole possessed doll/action figure thing he had going, which I could see how that could translate into a moveset.

Power to those that want him in and it would be interesting if he did. Not a character I'm personally interested for.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

I've got a bit of the moveset.
B: Geno Beam. A chargable beam that can easily be a shield breaker. Does 13 mid charge and 20 fully charged
Side B: Star Cannon. Geno shoots a few stars from his hands. 3 damage per star
Down B: Geno blast. Geno forms 2 pillars beside him for a few seconds. 10 damage per pillar, and can be a great revenge kill.
Up B: Geno Whirl. Geno whirls in he air, while discs circle him. The disks do 10 damage and Geno himself does 3, because it's a multi hit move.
Final Smash: Geno Flash: Geno forms into a cannon and fires a large sphere that travels a bit before expanding at large speeds. It acts like a Smart Bomb from there.