Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior #Geno4Smash - Everyone's gotta do their part! Vote Geno

[Fatmanonice]

I'd love to see Geno, don't get me wrong. But there is an inherent difference between a cameo and a major playable appearence. Square Enix probably didn't really mind if their character was used in something as minor as a cameo; Nintendo probably wouldn't have offered them much of anything even if Sqaure Enix asked for it because the part was too minor. For a cameo, you don't need cash; you don't need promotion; you need diplomacy.

But I really don't see diplomacy alone cutting it for a major playable appearance. Promotion may warrant such a deal, but alas---Square has no reason to promote Geno. So that leaves one way----cash. I don't think Nintendo will go that route. I don't think Nintendo should go that route. But when it comes down to it; I'd be really glad if they did go that route.

Both still boil down to copyright so they'd still have to go through the same exact process whether he was just a trophy or a playable character meaning that money was still involved simply because Nintendo didn't own the copyright. It's not just a matter of asking permission, there's a lot of legal mumbo jumbo tied to the whole process of using copyrights. In order to use a copyright in something that is going to be sold, you have to negotiate a sort of rental fee. As the old saying goes, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[Reznor]

Both still boil down to copyright so they'd still have to go through the same exact process whether he was just a trophy or a playable character meaning that money was still involved simply because Nintendo didn't own the copyright. It's not just a matter of asking permission, there's a lot of legal mumbo jumbo tied to the whole process of using copyrights. In order to use a copyright in something that is going to be sold, you have to negotiate a sort of rental fee. As the old saying goes, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

its also a matter of why they should go and ask permission to use a character from a instead of using one of their own Paper Mario and M&L games have a ton of characters they can use
also both series have better selling games

 

[Fatmanonice]

Largely because demand for Geno is significantly higher than those characters. That's pretty much it. As far as obscure characters go, he's got a pretty decent following despite not being playable in nearly 20 years and there's the possibility that could have caught the attention of someone higher up.

 

[Reznor]

Largely because demand for Geno is significantly higher than those characters. That's pretty much it. As far as obscure characters go, he's got a pretty decent following despite not being playable in nearly 20 years and there's the possibility that could have caught the attention of someone higher up.

there is also high demand for Sora
but for reals I don't think popularity is every thing if popularity mattered then we would have gotten King K. Rool a while ago

 

[FalKoopa]

there's the possibility that could have caught the attention of someone higher up.

I'd have expected them to respond by now, you know...

His demand has also crashed since Brawl...
(Taken from Shortie's poll)
Paper Mario 515
Super Mario RPG (Geno, Mallow) 312

 

[DMurr]

I'd have expected them to respond by now, you know...

His demand has also crashed since Brawl...
(Taken from Shortie's poll)
Paper Mario 515
Super Mario RPG (Geno, Mallow) 312

I never really understood why that said Super Mario RPG and not exclusively Geno's name... could cause a lack of votes IMO.

 

[Fatmanonice]

there is also high demand for Sora
but for reals I don't think popularity is every thing if popularity mattered then we would have gotten King K. Rool a while ago

Except Brawl had a ton of popular characters. We got Wario, Diddy, King Dedede, Metaknight, Lucario, Olimar, and Sonic. Not everyone could have been added especially when the Brawl poll was taken after nearly all the Brawl roster had already been programmed in the game.

I would argue that Geno and Sora have different kinds of popularity. Sora commonly stars in modern games while Geno's popularity still continues on after nearly two decades. One's in the present, the other stretches from the past to the present. Also, nobody argued that popularity was everything in fact Sakurai has gone on record to say that popularity wasn't the main factor in his decisions and he's much more concerned about the character's personality, what they would add to the game, and how they would fit in with the rest of the cast. That being said, Sakurai could simply find Geno unique enough to add given of course he's even a blip on his radar.

 

[Reznor]

Except Brawl had a ton of popular characters. We got Wario, Diddy, King Dedede, Metaknight, Lucario, Olimar, and Sonic. Not everyone could have been added especially when the Brawl poll was taken after nearly all the Brawl roster had already been programmed in the game

if nintendo can get square enix character then why not pick a more popular one like Cloud (damn me for saying this)

I would argue that Geno and Sora have different kinds of popularity. Sora commonly stars in modern games while Geno's popularity still continues on after nearly two decades. One's in the present, the other stretches from the past to the present. Also, nobody argued that popularity was everything in fact Sakurai has gone on record to say that popularity wasn't the main factor in his decisions and he's much more concerned about the character's personality, what they would add to the game, and how they would fit in with the rest of the cast. That being said, Sakurai could simply find Geno unique enough to add given of course he's even a blip on his radar.

like Sakurai said popularity doesn't matter which is the only thing Geno has going for him honestly
and there more more unique characters in the other mario RPGs

 

[Fatmanonice]

I would argue because Geno (and Mallow) are unique in that they are both Mario and Square Enix characters, something that neither Sora or Cloud could boast. Simply put, they were collaborative creations between the two developers. Whether Geno is unique enough is really just a matter of opinion but I feel that Geno would have plenty of material to work with given how he's essentially a wooden doll stuffed with an armory of different weapons.

 

[Reznor]

I would argue because Geno (and Mallow) are unique in that they are both Mario and Square Enix characters, something that neither Sora or Cloud could boast. Simply put, they were collaborative creations between the two developers. Whether Geno is unique enough is really just a matter of opinion but I feel that Geno would have plenty of material to work with given how he's essentially a wooden doll stuffed with an armory of different weapons.

true Geno and Mallow have a better chance than other Square characters I guess my point didn't make much sense there

and yes Geno being unique is a matter of opinion

to be honest I don't even hate Geno really I just hate Super Mario RPG fans

 

[Fatmanonice]

I understand. Fans can be insufferable at times. Welcome to the status quo of the internet.

 

[King Orfut]

ah ha, he can't return if he was never around in the first place ..

 

[NessOnett]

Dude. There is hardly any notoriety behind Geno. Hes just too random and unimportant to be added to smash. There are no technicalities behind it. Hes owned by Square Enix and NOT nintendo. Plain and simple.

Sure he has some fan demand but thats it really.

Since I may have moved too fast in my previous post for you to keep up, I will keep this as simple as I can:

SMRPG:L7S was a second party game. This is a fact. If it were a third party game, it would neither be published by Nintendo, nor would it be using existing Nintendo IP(Mario, Peach, Bowser, Mushroom Kingdom, etc.)

This means that Geno is, by definition, a second party character...fact. Regardless of the contract that was signed over the game, and who owns the rights to him.

This means that Nintendo, being Nintendo will treat his inclusion the same as they would treat every other second party character. Nintendo puts FAR more stock into fanservice and nostalgia(especially for this series), than it does in having to pay a minor royalty(I guarantee it's minor, or he wouldn't have made his infamous cameo).


As for being random and unimportant...well that's just wrong. He's the main character from one of the best selling games of the SNES era. Was third highest for sales in Japan, with 1.47m copies sold. A game that sold over 5 times as many copies as Mother2/Earthbound(a franchise you can assume I feel strongly about), and yet they got 2 characters, X number of items, etc. The game listed in the top 30 on both IGN and GameFAQs top 100 "best games of all-time." Winning awards for best graphics, and spawning both the Paper Mario series and the Mario & Luigi series. It's no coincidence that he has such a strong following.

 

[Reznor]

Since I may have moved too fast in my previous post for you to keep up, I will keep this as simple as I can:

SMRPG:L7S was a second party game. This is a fact. If it were a third party game, it would neither be published by Nintendo, nor would it be using existing Nintendo IP(Mario, Peach, Bowser, Mushroom Kingdom, etc.)

This means that Geno is, by definition, a second party character...fact. Regardless of the contract that was signed over the game, and who owns the rights to him.

This means that Nintendo, being Nintendo will treat his inclusion the same as they would treat every other second party character. Nintendo puts FAR more stock into fanservice and nostalgia(especially for this series), than it does in having to pay a minor royalty(I guarantee it's minor, or he wouldn't have made his infamous cameo).


As for being random and unimportant...well that's just wrong. He's the main character from one of the best selling games of the SNES era. Was third highest for sales in Japan, with 1.47m copies sold. A game that sold over 5 times as many copies as Mother2/Earthbound(a franchise you can assume I feel strongly about), and yet they got 2 characters, X number of items, etc. The game listed in the top 30 on both IGN and GameFAQs top 100 "best games of all-time." Winning awards for best graphics, and spawning both the Paper Mario series and the Mario & Luigi series. It's no coincidence that he has such a strong following.

even if SMRPG is second party it doesn't change much
IGN is awful don't use them to help your point it will only make it worse

Super Mario RPG sales- 2.14m

Paper Mario- 1.38m
Paper Mario TTYD- 2.25m
Super Paper Mario- 3.57
Paper MArio Sticker Star- 1.55

M&L SS- 2.17
M&L PiT- 1.23
M&L BiS- 3.72

first off sales don't make a good game but eve n if sales matter it sold the 5th best of all Mario RPGs not even top 3 (even with the SNES ending around the time it came out wouldn't have made much of a diffrence in sales)
Earthbound is a better game than SMRPG thats why they get 2 character

 

[kiteinthesky]

first off sales don't make a good game but eve n if sales matter it sold the 5th best of all Mario RPGs not even top 3 (even with the SNES ending around the time it came out wouldn't have made much of a diffrence in sales)
Earthbound is a better game than SMRPG thats why they get 2 character

The reason that Earthbound has two characters is because HAL Laboratory, the company that made Earthbound and the company Sakurai worked for until 2003, were the ones that made Smash Brothers in the first place.

 

[Reznor]

The reason that Earthbound has two characters is because HAL Laboratory, the company that made Earthbound and the company Sakurai worked for until 2003, were the ones that made Smash Brothers in the first place.

well also its a better game so I guess there are 2 reasons

 

[kiteinthesky]

well also its a better game so I guess there are 2 reasons

Having played both and many other SNES RPGs in my day, that's very subjective and a matter of opinion. Personally I like them both equally.

 

[Reznor]

Having played both and many other SNES RPGs in my day, that's very subjective and a matter of opinion.

true

 

[Deleted member]

He's the main character from one of the best selling games of the SNES era.

I'm sorry, but what?
He may be important to the plot of the game, but to say he's the main character of Super Mario RPG is a hard pill to swallow.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

A third party character being used in a second party game makes Geno a second party?

I guess that means Snake and Sonic are first party characters now that they were in Smash. Geno is owned by Square Enix. Square Enix is not a subsidiary of Nintendo, and therefore, Nintendo has no ownership over him. Sakurai would have to go to SE to use him, and I really just don't see that happening.

I like Geno. He would be awesome. But chances are that he isn't going to happen.

 

[kiteinthesky]

I'm sorry, but what?
He may be important to the plot of the game, but to say he's the main character of Super Mario RPG is a hard pill to swallow.

I don't know why NessOnett said he was the main character. I know Geno's the most POPULAR character, but no. Geno's actually the lancer of the party.

 

[Deleted member]

On another note, I still find it strange that with Square making Mario Hoops, Sports Mix, and even the Fortune Street games for Wii and DS that use Mario characters, Geno and co. are not present in any of them.
That's really a bunch of wasted opportunities to showcase characters that would otherwise be practically impossible to show in a Mario game.

 

[NessOnett]

even if SMRPG is second party it doesn't change much
IGN is awful don't use them to help your point it will only make it worse

Super Mario RPG sales- 2.14m

Paper Mario- 1.38m
Paper Mario TTYD- 2.25m
Super Paper Mario- 3.57
Paper MArio Sticker Star- 1.55

M&L SS- 2.17
M&L PiT- 1.23
M&L BiS- 3.72

first off sales don't make a good game but eve n if sales matter it sold the 5th best of all Mario RPGs not even top 3 (even with the SNES ending around the time it came out wouldn't have made much of a diffrence in sales)
Earthbound is a better game than SMRPG thats why they get 2 character

How do any of those numbers matter? With the industry selling on average hundreds of times as many games when those latter games releases as opposed to the original, obviously the raw numbers are going to be in their favor. According to your logic, the sales of any game that wasn't released in the past 3 years were terrible. Relativity. The important part is the fact that it was the 3rd best selling game on the console, and that was at the end of the console's life, and AFTER the next system was out and most people had moved on. Which means if it had been released in a more neutral time, it would likely have been the best selling game on the console, period.

I'm sorry, but what?
He may be important to the plot of the game, but to say he's the main character of Super Mario RPG is a hard pill to swallow.

Did you...play the game? Because if you did, and followed the story, it was very blatant that the entire game was HIS story. Just because there is a section of the game before he shows up doesn't make Mario the main character. Mario got pushed to the forefront...because Nintendo. But he was actually just a random civilian that Geno picked up along the way to help him with his mission(to collect the "Seven Stars" and fulfill the "Legend"). Plenty of other games start without the main character, and they show up later on. Happens.

A third party character being used in a second party game makes Geno a second party?

I guess that means Snake and Sonic are first party characters now that they were in Smash. Geno is owned by Square Enix. Square Enix is not a subsidiary of Nintendo, and therefore, Nintendo has no ownership over him. Sakurai would have to go to SE to use him, and I really just don't see that happening.

I like Geno. He would be awesome. But chances are that he isn't going to happen.

That argument would make sense if Geno existed prior to the making of SMRPG. But he didn't. He was made FOR the game. So that makes him a second party character. I don't get why this logic is so hard for you to follow, it's pretty cut and dry.

Snake and Sonic existed, and were third party characters, long before SSBB was even conceived. Them being added to the game does not change their party affiliation. They are/were third party, so until their owners get absorbed into Nintendo, they will always be third party.

 

[Reznor]

How do any of those numbers matter? With the industry selling on average hundreds of times as many games when those latter games releases as opposed to the original, obviously the raw numbers are going to be in their favor. According to your logic, the sales of any game that wasn't released in the past 3 years were terrible. Relativity. The important part is the fact that it was the 3rd best selling game on the console, and that was at the end of the console's life, and AFTER the next system was out and most people had moved on. Which means if it had been released in a more neutral time, it would likely have been the best selling game on the console, period.


Did you...play the game? Because if you did, and followed the story, it was very blatant that the entire game was HIS story. Just because there is a section of the game before he shows up doesn't make Mario the main character. Mario got pushed to the forefront...because Nintendo. But he was actually just a random civilian that Geno picked up along the way to help him with his mission(to collect the "Seven Stars" and fulfill the "Legend"). Plenty of other games start without the main character, and they show up later on. Happens.

wait SMRPG only sold 2.14 million google tells me its not even in the top 10 top selling SNES titles

Super Mario World - 20.60m
Donkey Kong Country - 9m
Super Mario Kart - 8m
Street Fighter 2 TWW - 6.3m
Zelda TTP - 4.61m
DKC2 - 4.37m
Street Fighter 2 Turbo - 4.1m
Star Fox - 4m
Super Mario Wolrd 2 Yoshi's Island - 4m

SMRPG isn't as special as you say it is

 

[kiteinthesky]

Did you...play the game? Because if you did, and followed the story, it was very blatant that the entire game was HIS story. Just because there is a section of the game before he shows up doesn't make Mario the main character. Mario got pushed to the forefront...because Nintendo. But he was actually just a random civilian that Geno picked up along the way to help him with his mission(to collect the "Seven Stars" and fulfill the "Legend"). Plenty of other games start without the main character, and they show up later on. Happens.

That's really debatable. You could argue that Mallow was more of a main character than the rest of the party on similar logic. Mallow was the only character to go through any kind of character development at all, one of the main goals of the quest was to reunite him with his parents, he had three story arcs dedicated to him counting Tadpole Pond, he was in more cutscenes than Geno...

That argument would make sense if Geno existed prior to the making of SMRPG. But he didn't. He was made FOR the game. So that makes him a second party character. I don't get why this logic is so hard for you to follow, it's pretty cut and dry.

Snake and Sonic existed, and were third party characters, long before SSBB was even conceived. Them being added to the game does not change their party affiliation. They are/were third party, so until their owners get absorbed into Nintendo, they will always be third party.

Being second-party or third-party has nothing to do with why a character was created, it's a legal standing. Spiritually and plot-wise, Geno is a Mario character and you'd therefore be kind of right in that sense, but legally, Square Enix owns the rights to Geno and the rest of the cast of SMRPG sans the characters Nintendo owned before (Mario, Bowser, Peach, Toad, etc.) which therefore makes him third party.

You are totally correct about it being pointless to compare sales of newer games to older ones though.

 

[Deleted member]

Did you...play the game? Because if you did, and followed the story, it was very blatant that the entire game was HIS story. Just because there is a section of the game before he shows up doesn't make Mario the main character. Mario got pushed to the forefront...because Nintendo. But he was actually just a random civilian that Geno picked up along the way to help him with his mission(to collect the "Seven Stars" and fulfill the "Legend"). Plenty of other games start without the main character, and they show up later on. Happens.

Geno is nothing more than the "Mr. Exposition" of the game, a common trope in RPGs. Yes, he is important to the plot, but it's still Mario within the spotlight through and through. Geno just knows more about the situation than Mario does.
I mean, once you get Bowser, Geno can pretty much sit out the rest of the fighting if the player chooses.
Can't do that to Mario. No, the player is pretty much FORCED to keep Mario in the party at all times. If Geno was the main character, Square would not have made him able to sit out.

As for the story, it's still Mario's. Geno may have had his mission, but Mario had his. Since their missions were intertwined, Geno joined Mario to give them both a better chance at success.
And as an FYI, using the "Legend of the Seven Stars" subtitle for the English release as proof Geno is the main star is asinine; the title is simply "Super Mario RPG" in Japan with no subtitle whatsoever.

 

[TheCreator]

Why is this still a plausible idea

 

[kiteinthesky]

Why is this still a plausible idea

Why ask why, when HOW, is so much more fun?

 

[TheCreator]

oh. I was jk it's obviously not.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Picture I drew on Miiverse last night:

I'd like to do some humorous ones with him but I haven't come up with any good material yet. I mainly focus on Waluigi and Villager because their drawings pretty much draw themselves.

 

[CalumG]

Except Brawl had a ton of popular characters. We got Wario, Diddy, King Dedede, Metaknight, Lucario, Olimar, and Sonic. Not everyone could have been added especially when the Brawl poll was taken after nearly all the Brawl roster had already been programmed in the game.

Not that this affects Geno's chances one way or another, but none of those characters are really in a situation even remotely similar to Geno. They're all popular characters, yes - but I'm willing to wager money that none of them got in because of their popularity. Popularity probably helped, but I'd say that popularity was merely a gold star pinned onto the fact that they're all (bar Lucario but we all know different rules apply) crucial characters in their respective franchises, or the actual main protagonists in the case of Wario, Olimar and Sonic. The same simply cannot be said for many other characters that rank highly in polls (such as, obviously, Geno).

 

[Fatmanonice]

Not that this affects Geno's chances one way or another, but none of those characters are really in a situation even remotely similar to Geno. They're all popular characters, yes - but I'm willing to wager money that none of them got in because of their popularity. Popularity probably helped, but I'd say that popularity was merely a gold star pinned onto the fact that they're all (bar Lucario but we all know different rules apply) crucial characters in their respective franchises, or the actual main protagonists in the case of Wario, Olimar and Sonic. The same simply cannot be said for many other characters that rank highly in polls (such as, obviously, Geno).

I understand this but the original argument that was made was that Sakurai snubbed a lot of popular choices for Brawl like K. Rool, Megaman, and Ridley and my rebuttal was that there were a lot of popular characters added anyways and that it would have been impossible to add absolutely everyone that people were clamoring for in the preBrawl days.

 

[loganhogan]

Picture I drew on Miiverse last night:

I'd like to do some humorous ones with him but I haven't come up with any good material yet. I mainly focus on Waluigi and Villager because their drawings pretty much draw themselves.

You draw very good.

 

[TheDivineDeity]

GoldenYu is once again adding nothing of importance to the discussion at hand... If you don't like the character, go elsewhere. Quit trolling the forums.

On the other hand, I fully support the inclusion of Geno, even if it is unlikely.

 

[Reznor]

GoldenYu is once again adding nothing of importance to the discussion at hand... If you don't like the character, go elsewhere. Quit trolling the forums.

On the other hand, I fully support the inclusion of Geno, even if it is unlikely.

its a discussion of the character not a support thread we can say we hate Geno all we want

 

[TheDivineDeity]

And I can support the character all I want.

 

[Reznor]

And I can support the character all I want.

yes you can and I didn't say you can't

 

[Deleted member]

GoldenYu is once again adding nothing of importance to the discussion at hand... If you don't like the character, go elsewhere. Quit trolling the forums.

On the other hand, I fully support the inclusion of Geno, even if it is unlikely.

I'm sorry, but have we met before? You seem to think you have enough familiarity to the point you can make such an arrogant statement that adds less importance to the discussion than you claim I have done "again".

Within the past week and a half in this thread, I have:

-Dispelled the "People that dislike Geno only dislike him because he's a 'threat' to Waluigi" logic.
-Declared neutrality on Geno's inclusion.
-Brought up a concept of having Geno represent his own thing and serving as an idea for a revived Retro character (which would actually work more in his favor, given that Sakurai likes reviving Retro characters)
-Gave the possibility that Sakurai doesn't see Geno as a 3rd party character (thus wouldn't evaluate him as he did the likes of Sonic and Mega Man; something that would work against Geno if he did).
-Showed how Geno was doomed to not be in Brawl from the start, yet pointed out how his pre-Brawl popularity could still help this time around.
-Dispelled the idea that Geno is the same as the Pokémon characters in that he's "2nd Party" by showing that Square owns his rights while Nintendo has no stake in him or the other SMRPG originals.
-Discredited the "Geno is the star of Super Mario RPG, not Mario" logic (while still mentioning that he is important to the plot).
-Mentioned how Nintendo/Square missed multiple perfect opportunities to bring him (and other SMRPG characters) into spotlight once again.

In comparison, you have:

-******* about me.

So which one of us really has added nothing of importance to the thread?

Furthermore, this isn't the "I Love Geno Fan Club", this is a discussion thread, as Reznor pointed out. Discussion is open to supporters, detractors, and neutrals, which means I have every right to post here. Otherwise, why the **** are you posting in the Lucina thread if she's just "a female clone of Marth that is worse than Roy"? You obviously hate her, so why don't you follow your own advice and don't post there again? You're a damned hypocrite.


Therefore, you can go be ***** by a rhino.

 

[TheDivineDeity]

Therefore, you can go be ***** by a rhino.

Bitter much?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

He'd have a good time with that. I mean...Rhinos are pretty....horny