Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior #Geno4Smash - Everyone's gotta do their part! Vote Geno

[Mr. Mumbles]

Hypothetical question. If we get what we want and Geno is either in this Smash Brothers or the next one, is it mission accomplished and everyone goes home? Or has the mission then only begun?

 

[1983parrothead]

People want Geno because his origin is considered by many as one of the best RPGs on one of the best consoles.

But I have a feeling telling me that Nintendo / Sakurai don't find Geno useful enough. Sorry Geno fans. Perhaps even DeMille from Super Mario RPG's cousin Tomato Adventure is obsolete to Nintendo / Sakurai.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

That's only if you see time as linear. That's such a limited perception

 

[Arcadenik]

The only people who support Geno based off of the looks are people who haven't played the game. They aren't even real supporters. There has been 1,000 other logical arguments on his behalf and you choose to talk about people who say that.

I actually played Super Mario RPG dozens of times when I was in middle school and high school. I still don't think Geno deserves to be in Smash. Nintendo and Square Enix don't care about Geno. They had several opportunities to include characters from Super Mario RPG in their Mario+Square sports/party spin-off games and they didn't. They put in Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest characters over Super Mario RPG characters. By the time SSB4 comes out, it would have been about 18 years since Super Mario RPG came out. That game isn't relevant to Nintendo and Square Enix today. Why would Square Enix choose an obscure character from a 1996 Mario game over a Final Fantasy character or a Dragon Quest character? Those two franchises are Square Enix's cash cows. Why would Nintendo choose an obscure Mario character from a 1996 Nintendo game over a Mario character who is more prominent in Mario games like Toad and Bowser Jr.? Those two characters are more marketable and more recognizable. And besides, Mallow is better anyway. Gotta love weather-based powers.

 

[FlareHabanero]

People want Geno because his origin is considered by many as one of the best RPGs on one of the best consoles..

Those people have clearly never dipped their toes into other RPGs.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Those people have clearly never dipped their toes into other RPGs.

As someone who has played a lot of other old-school SNES RPGs, he does stand apart from the other "badass" characters in RPGs in that instead of being a brooding nasty emo, he is in fact quite optimistic, open and kind.

Then again, we're talking about a game that's different than other RPGs of the day in many respects. The plot is more superficial, it's more of an "easy" game for beginners, its story is certainly a lot brighter than that of others (except maybe Chrono Trigger, but Chrono Cross and Square's retconning of the ending in the remake **** all over the happy ending, damn you Square > ), so this is kind of like comparing apples to oranges.


Also, Arcadenik, you bring up fair points and I appreciate your input. I'll try to take a crack at addressing them:

I actually played Super Mario RPG dozens of times when I was in middle school and high school. I still don't think Geno deserves to be in Smash. Nintendo and Square Enix don't care about Geno. They had several opportunities to include characters from Super Mario RPG in their Mario+Square sports/party spin-off games and they didn't. They put in Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest characters over Super Mario RPG characters.

I don't think that Geno and Mallow not being put in that 3 on 3 hoops game, et al means that Square doesn't care about them or doesn't like them. There could be many different reasons. (Did anyone ever find out why Square didn't? Was there a lack of fan demand? Did Nintendo not request them?) After all, Geno was given a cameo in M&L:SS with no problems, so clearly they're able to use the character when asked. (IIRC the reason why that happened was 'cos the people at Alphadream who made M&L:SS were also developers for SMRPG and had some strings they could pull to make it happen. They clearly wanted Geno in the game -- we should probably campaign them too as I said before 'cos they'd be the ones with the ability to help us, but that's neither here nor there)

Also remember that Fortune Street had SMRPG-themed levels and even had the Mushroom Kingdom theme from SMRPG in one of them, so don't think that Square has forgotten about it.

I personally don't think that Square doesn't care about them or hates them, just that the will to bring them back isn't there and that if we put a fire under them, so-to-speak, we can build up the will to bring back Geno. I think that maybe the idea just didn't occur to Square Enix or there was some third-party miscommunication that happened like what happened with Capcom and Nintendo in the Brawl days. Didn't Capcom say that they wanted a character in Brawl but Nintendo didn't approach them, and vice versa? I believe if we bridge the gap between them we could make some magic happen.

By the time SSB4 comes out, it would have been about 18 years since Super Mario RPG came out. That game isn't relevant to Nintendo and Square Enix today.

Lots of characters in SSB games are retro ones from old games that have been revived, though. Ice Climbers, Pit, et al. And many, many of the Assist Trophies were frequently requested retro characters that people wanted as playable. Clearly one of the main purposes of the SSB franchise is to recognize and celebrate characters from throughout Nintendo's history, including retro ones.

Why would Square Enix choose an obscure character from a 1996 Mario game over a Final Fantasy character or a Dragon Quest character? Those two franchises are Square Enix's cash cows. Why would Nintendo choose an obscure Mario character from a 1996 Nintendo game over a Mario character who is more prominent in Mario games like Toad and Bowser Jr.? Those two characters are more marketable and more recognizable.

From what I understand, doesn't Sakurai/Nintendo approach companies requesting a specific character? There's no way to really know what Square Enix is truly thinking or would truly want as far as SSB goes. SSB is a totally different ballgame than 3 On 3 Hoops or Fortune Street. One could easily argue that Megaman would never make it into an SSB game because Capcom would feel it would benefit more from throwing in a Street Fighter character, and that clearly didn't happen.

And besides, Mallow is better anyway. Gotta love weather-based powers.

That's a matter of personal preference, but Mallow is actually my favorite character too. Geno's inclusion in an SSB game just seems like one of the best hopes to revive the franchise given he's the fan-favorite of the game.

 

[FlareHabanero]

As someone who has played a lot of other old-school SNES RPGs, he does stand apart from the other "badass" characters in RPGs in that instead of being a brooding nasty emo, he is in fact quite optimistic, open and kind.

Well of course Mario would be optimistic, him being all depressed would be very out of character for him. Though whether or not he's badass is somewhat up for debate, you know?

 

[Arcadenik]

Lots of characters in SSB games are retro ones from old games that have been revived, though. Ice Climbers, Pit, et al. And many, many of the Assist Trophies were frequently requested retro characters that people wanted as playable. Clearly one of the main purposes of the SSB franchise is to recognize and celebrate characters from throughout Nintendo's history, including retro ones.

The difference between Geno and Ice Climbers, Pit, et al. is that Geno is a retro character from a franchise that is NOT retro and Ice Climbers and Pit (pre-Brawl) are retro characters from franchises that are retro.

Mario franchise = not retro
Geno = retro
Ice Climber franchise = retro
Ice Climbers = retro
Kid Icarus franchise = retro (pre-Brawl)
Pit = retro (pre-Brawl)

There's also that Geno is not a protagonist but a sidekick whereas Ice Climbers and Pit are the protagonists in their respective games. Adding Geno for the Mario series is like adding Error for the Zelda series or Stanley for the Donkey Kong series. Why would Nintendo put in a retro character who isn't currently relevant to a non-retro franchise...? Considering that said non-retro franchise currently has several non-retro characters who are still relevant?

Also, notice that they put in retro characters only when their franchises are already retro.

Game & Watch series' last game was Mario The Juggler in 1991.
Ice Climber series' last game was Ice Climber in 1985.
Kid Icarus series' last game was Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters in 1991.
Robot series' last game was Gyromite in 1985.

So, from the looks of things, retro characters have a chance only if their respective franchises are already retro.

Oh, and Sakurai said that it's incredibly difficult to add third-party characters and that third-party characters have to be very special and iconic. Geno might be special to Geno fans and/or Super Mario RPG fans but he isn't special to Nintendo or Square Enix, let alone iconic. Geno isn't even an all-star for either company.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

His statement of "Difficult to add third parties" was talking about "Fitting in" not any sort of legality with the characters; Geno is a Mario character so there is no reason why he wouldn't fit in

 

[kiteinthesky]

The difference between Geno and Ice Climbers, Pit, et al. is that Geno is a retro character from a franchise that is NOT retro and Ice Climbers and Pit (pre-Brawl) are retro characters from franchises that are retro.

Mario franchise = not retro
Geno = retro
Ice Climber franchise = retro
Ice Climbers = retro
Kid Icarus franchise = retro (pre-Brawl)
Pit = retro (pre-Brawl)

There's also that Geno is not a protagonist but a sidekick whereas Ice Climbers and Pit are the protagonists in their respective games. Adding Geno for the Mario series is like adding Error for the Zelda series or Stanley for the Donkey Kong series. Why would Nintendo put in a retro character who isn't currently relevant to a non-retro franchise...? Considering that said non-retro franchise currently has several non-retro characters who are still relevant?

Also, notice that they put in retro characters only when their franchises are already retro.

Game & Watch series' last game was Mario The Juggler in 1991.
Ice Climber series' last game was Ice Climber in 1985.
Kid Icarus series' last game was Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters in 1991.
Robot series' last game was Gyromite in 1985.

So, from the looks of things, retro characters have a chance only if their respective franchises are already retro.

Oh, and Sakurai said that it's incredibly difficult to add third-party characters and that third-party characters have to be very special and iconic. Geno might be special to Geno fans and/or Super Mario RPG fans but he isn't special to Nintendo or Square Enix, let alone iconic. Geno isn't even an all-star for either company.

Super Mario RPG itself is considered retro because it's an RPG from the 90's and because the Paper Mario games are spiritual successors, not actual sequels. That's just what people call it. Times are changing and as these games get older the threshold of what's considered retro is being boosted to consider franchises we old fuddy-duddies would consider more recent.

Arguing about Geno's relevance is getting into making assumptions about Square Enix and Nintendo's mentalities that no one has enough information to accurately portray. After all, Solid Snake has hardly any relevance to Nintendo and yet he was placed into Brawl because the director of Konami who happens to be Masahiro Sakurai's friend begged him to put Snake in the game, as opposed to Simon Belmont, whom by the logic you present would be a MUCH better fit given that he started off as a Nintendo character and was an important flagship character in the NES days.

Really these people can do what they want for whatever reasons they want.

Though honestly I feel Geno would be quite relevant as a Square Enix representative rather than their mascot-of-the-week due to the fact that he was a popular Mario character created by Square Enix. This game showcases Nintendo's history and SMRPG represents one of the deepest collaborations between Square Enix and Nintendo, and is a symbol of their cooperation. What better way to show Square Enix's relevance and connection to Nintendo than by bringing back this character Square and Nintendo made together? Where else are you gonna find that?

 

[Starcutter]

I don't expect geno, but it would be alright if he got in.

 

[Arcadenik]

Where else are you gonna find that?

Mallow

 

[Pyra]

Mallow

I wouldn't mind if Mallow got in over Geno.
I like Geno more, but I just want a SMRPG rep.
Which we probably won't get.
I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I wouldn't mind if Mallow got in over Geno.
I like Geno more, but I just want a SMRPG rep.
Which we probably won't get.
I hope I'm wrong.

Mallow

But Mallow uses lightening, and therefore he would be a Pikachu clone.

 

[Pyra]

But Mallow uses lightening, and therefore he would be a Pikachu clone.

If he comes back with Pichu I will be able to accept it.

 

[Arcadenik]

But Mallow uses lightening, and therefore he would be a Pikachu clone.

Mallow has more than just lightning, he can summon blizzards (Snowy), rainstorms (HP Rain), and meteor showers (Star Rain). Mallow's normal attacks would involve whacking enemies with staves, gloves, and cymbals. Mallow probably would dismember himself in half whenever he's doing his special moves or dodging. And at least he wears pants.

 

[cmbsfm]

Mallow should be an assist trophy and Geno should be playable
I think adding Geno could increase his popularity and pave the road for a smrpg sequel/remake

 

[Neanderthal]

You guys need to get onto the "Rate their chance thread" and use your nominations for Geno.
http://smashboards.com/threads/rate-their-chance-returns-day-12-little-mac.337682/page-23

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

You guys need to get onto the "Rate their chance thread" and use your nominations for Geno.
http://smashboards.com/threads/rate-their-chance-returns-day-12-little-mac.337682/page-23

I would but seeing him shot down would not make me particularly happy, even though he doesn't have much of a chance.

 

[Deleted member]

There is one thing to consider that I just realized.

Sakurai mentioned that Mega Man was the 2nd most requested 3rd Party character for Brawl.
This means one of two things:

either
a. Geno had less requests than Mega Man, and thus was not one of the most requested characters from what Sakurai saw.
or
b. Sakurai doesn't see Geno as a 3rd Party character.

Ponder this for a moment.

 

[Neanderthal]

There is one thing to consider that I just realized.

Sakurai mentioned that Mega Man was the 2nd most requested 3rd Party character for Brawl.
This means one of two things:

either
a. Geno had less requests than Mega Man, and thus was not one of the most requested characters from what Sakurai saw.
or
b. Sakurai doesn't see Geno as a 3rd Party character.

Ponder this for a moment.

Good thinking, but he probably did have less requests than Megaman.
Might have just seemed like he was more requested on these boards because we were louder and more passionate.

 

[HarryTheChin]

I never heard of him.

 

[Deleted member]

Good thinking, but he probably did have less requests than Megaman.
Might have just seemed like he was more requested on these boards because we were louder and more passionate.

According to ChronoBound, Geno had some decent popularity in Japan during Brawl speculation, and discussion of Geno did stray off of these boards (even if it sort of started here).

Even though I see it as more of a cultist thing, it is something to consider.

 

[papagenos]

There is one thing to consider that I just realized.

Sakurai mentioned that Mega Man was the 2nd most requested 3rd Party character for Brawl.
This means one of two things:

either
a. Geno had less requests than Mega Man, and thus was not one of the most requested characters from what Sakurai saw.
or
b. Sakurai doesn't see Geno as a 3rd Party character.

Ponder this for a moment.

interesting idea...

could very well be true, sakurai looks at things differently... for instance nana is a character when counting how many playable characters are in smash in his eyes. I had a theory about him laughing off Ridley as too big because he took the question as meaning the Boss Ridley they made could have been playable and he laughed saying he's too big! meaning the BOSS in the game they made was too big and thus no the bosses were never considered for character spots. Sakurai doesn't seem to take things the same way as everyone else I guess is my point.

If sakurai doesn't see Geno as 3rd party, I think he's right up there with Toad, Bowser Jr., and Waluigi as possible new mario reps. not getting my hopes up but if sakurai makes this next roster with a lot of thought on what the fans wanted in brawl it could happen.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, Nana isn't counted.

Zelda/Sheik are counted separately, so are the two Samuses, as well as the individual Pokémon from the Trainer, since Sakurai views Brawl as having 39 characters and Melee as having 26.

 

[papagenos]

Actually, Nana isn't counted.

Zelda/Sheik are counted separately, so are the two Samuses, as well as the individual Pokémon from the Trainer, since Sakurai views Brawl as having 39 characters and Melee as having 26.

I could have sworn I read somewhere he viewed it as having 40, counting Nana... maybe I just rounded off a nice even number and assumed that was what he went for.

 

[Xigger]

There is one thing to consider that I just realized.

Sakurai mentioned that Mega Man was the 2nd most requested 3rd Party character for Brawl.
This means one of two things:

either
a. Geno had less requests than Mega Man, and thus was not one of the most requested characters from what Sakurai saw.
or
b. Sakurai doesn't see Geno as a 3rd Party character.

Ponder this for a moment.

c. Ponder that someone else like Sonic was the most requested third party character?

Wouldn't it be more relevant to Geno to mention that Sakurai didn't get the rights to a character he wanted?...

 

[Deleted member]

c. Ponder that someone else like Sonic was the most requested third party character?

Wouldn't it be more relevant to Geno to mention that Sakurai didn't get the rights to a character he wanted?...

No, because Sakurai never said that.
He merely mentioned that some Nintendo characters could not even be considered due to licensing issues, though that applies more to when Sakurai was deciding on characters.......before Geno's popularity became noteworthy, meaning he wouldn't have considered Geno regardless of the Square-Enix issue.

 

[FalKoopa]

He merely mentioned that some Nintendo characters could not even be considered due to licensing issues.

But what other character(s) would fit the description?

 

[Deleted member]

But what other character(s) would fit the description?

Any 2nd Party character that permission is not given by the co-IP holder.
Characters from media that Nintendo does not have full ownership (such as Rick Wheeler/Ryu Suzaku from F-Zero GP Legend)
Probably original characters from games like F-Zero GX, since Nintendo and Sega share rights to that game (much like the Square Enix thing for SMRPG)

It's not like Geno is the only one that fits.

And aside from that, given timing, Geno wouldn't be one who he's talking about; when Sakurai constructed the roster plans, Geno had yet to explode in a vocal fanbase.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

There is one thing to consider that I just realized.

Sakurai mentioned that Mega Man was the 2nd most requested 3rd Party character for Brawl.
This means one of two things:

either
a. Geno had less requests than Mega Man, and thus was not one of the most requested characters from what Sakurai saw.
or
b. Sakurai doesn't see Geno as a 3rd Party character.

Ponder this for a moment.

Since Sakurai has always listed Geno as a Mario character, it's probably the latter

 

[Reznor]

wait so why should we get a Super Mario RPG rep instead of a Mario and Luigi RPG rep even though the latter has sold a lot more copies and is still relevant

Super Mario RPG - 2.12m

M&L SS - 2.17

M&L PiT - 1.23m (well this one has less sales)

M&L BiS - 3.72m

 

[FalKoopa]

wait so why should we get a Super Mario RPG rep instead of a Mario and Luigi RPG rep even though the latter has sold a lot more copies and is still relevant

Super Mario RPG - 2.12m

M&L SS - 2.17

M&L PiT - 1.23m (well this one has less sales)

M&L BiS - 3.72m

Because sales don't matter.

But still, with yet another Mario & Luigi game in development, it does deserve a character, Fawful.

 

[Xigger]

wait so why should we get a Super Mario RPG rep instead of a Mario and Luigi RPG rep even though the latter has sold a lot more copies and is still relevant

Super Mario RPG - 2.12m

M&L SS - 2.17

M&L PiT - 1.23m (well this one has less sales)

M&L BiS - 3.72m

Characters aren't just about franchise sales. Smash has many retro (dead) franchises still included.

From a historic standpoint, SMRPG is a predecessor of sorts to M&L AND Paper Mario. Choosing one of them over where it started could defeat the purpose.

If you judge by what the character has to offer to the roster diversity, the latter two franchises can only offer alternate Mario or Luigis, compared to a new character.

Paper Mario is still a popular choice/contender.

 

[Reznor]

Characters aren't just about franchise sales. Smash has many retro (dead) franchises still included.

From a historic standpoint, SMRPG is a predecessor of sorts to M&L AND Paper Mario. Choosing one of them over where it started could defeat the purpose.

If you judge by what the character has to offer to the roster diversity, the latter two franchises can only offer alternate Mario or Luigis, compared to a new character.

Paper Mario is still a popular choice/contender.

point was that SMRPG is nothing special

just because SMRPG was the first doesn't mean it deserves a character more than the other Mario RPGs it would be like having Rhydon playable because hes the first pokemon created
M&L games can offer more than just Mario and Luigi Fawful has been in every M&L game so far and could have an awesome move set

agreed Paper Mario would also be a cool character

I think Geno is a cool character but I just think there are a ton of characters that should be a mario rep before him

 

[Xigger]

point was that SMRPG is nothing special

just because SMRPG was the first doesn't mean it deserves a character more than the other Mario RPGs it would be like having Rhydon playable because hes the first pokemon created
M&L games can offer more than just Mario and Luigi Fawful has been in every M&L game so far and could have an awesome move set

agreed Paper Mario would also be a cool character

I think Geno is a cool character but I just think there are a ton of characters that should be a mario rep before him

To be fair: none of these are really WORTHY Mario reps. Smash fans are accepting that nowadays. Toad and even Waluigi is valued more to Mr. Masahiro.

Secondly, SMRPG is important as it started all Mario RPGS, and sales fared very well on a dying console, in comparison to recent games where higher sales is more common and during the console lifetime.

Rhydon is a side character and not a popular one. Geno was one of the playable characters, the only one relevent to the story, and is popular. Such a comparison is irrelevant.

If you compare Fawful to Geno, they both have personality, have been in two games, (Not entirely sure for Fawful, barely for Geno) and Fawful has switched between villainous side character and antagonist. But Fawful does not have the same historic value that Geno has, just the same cult following. In that sense, it comes down to arguing recency versus history importance.

 

[Reznor]

If you compare Fawful to Geno, they both have personality, have been in two games, (Not entirely sure for Fawful, barely for Geno) and Fawful has switched between villainous side character and antagonist. But Fawful does not have the same historic value that Geno has, just the same cult following. In that sense, it comes down to arguing recency versus history importance.

if it was a perfect world both would be in Smash but ya recency and history are both important which one is more important is a matter of opinion

also Fawful was the 2nd to last boss in SS a badge shop in PiT and the main boss in BiS hes important to the series

Rhydon is a side character and not a popular one. Geno was one of the playable characters, the only one relevent to the story, and is popular. Such a comparison is irrelevant.

my point here was Rhydon is the first pokemon created and I was comparing it to SMRPG

 

[Xigger]

Ah. Technical first Pokemon. Nah, that's development stuff. It's all about the canon game stuff, right? But good comparison.

Fawful having those alternating roles makes him sound like Tingle in a similar respect. Popular, recent, but only relevant during parts of certain games. In the overall franchise. Steps ahead of Geno, but comparable on almost no common grounds... I don't think this comparison can really go any farther. Shame.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

By "HipsterAnt" on Miiverse

 

[kiteinthesky]

UPDATE ON THE WEBSITE THING:

Ok, don't think I've forgotten about the website because I haven't. I am programming the backend of the thing but I'm having a serious problem -- the script needs to be able to send emails to people to function as a proper letter-writing campaign, but XAMPP software and free site hosting services don't allow people to use SMTP.

Which means that either a) Monies need to be raised for a paid host, b) a free host that DOES allow SMTP needs to be found, or c) We need a different approach.

There are solutions for A and C but I don't know about B.

Raising monies to host a paid site probably wouldn't be a problem. I don't know if anyone would want to actually *do* that for something as trivial as getting a video game character in a fighting game, but if you all want to it's certainly possible. Hosting's actually pretty cheap.

We could use social media apps like Thunderclap to spam the hell out of Square's Facebook/Twitter/etc., we could just get a list of the emails of Square's head honchos, write up a persuasive post to get people to email these guys themselves and then just spam that to every Smash forum in existence.

I'm sorry this has taken so long. I guess Neanderthal called it.