LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Yeah. Poor guy's voice never cracked.
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General RPG Discussion
- Thread starter LASHING_LEAF
- Start date
Yup. Especially considering that you're REQUIRED to use the Mako for many parts of the game.
That's why I'm so excited for Mass Effect 2 on the PS3. I get all of the good stuff you mentioned without that driving bull****.
Oh, you mean like this?
I was trying to end on a happy, peaceful note though, not continue the argument. Though if you go by character design, it's not hard to see the influences for both Japanese and Western characters/settings/overall aesthetic design.
Top 3 WRPG Influences:
1. Tolkien (ex. like everything)
2. Star Trek/Star Wars (ex. Mass Effect)
3. Mad Max (ex. Fallout)
Top 3 JRPG Influences:
1. Action anime (ex. like everything)
2. Slice-of-life anime (ex. Persona)
3. WRPGs so they can sell more in America (ex. Demon's Souls)
They're both pretty archetypical in a lot of ways. If you showed a random human character from a JRPG you'd have a hard time guessing which game he's from, but if you showed a random dwarf, elf, goblin, or orc from a WRPG you'd have a hard time guessing which game he's from too. There's also the fact that a lot of Western games of all genres run on Unreal 3, which makes the characters look even more similar when rendered.
1. Tidus
Titus
2. I think Tidus has the same mental condition that Kanye West does where he was really successful in his chosen career field at a young age and it's grown to him being incredibly cocky and self-obsessed to the point that he doesn't respect anyone besides himself.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
I know this is off topic, but the show Titus really was (and still IS) awesome.
And lol at that japanese vs western men/women comparison.
And lol at that japanese vs western men/women comparison.
Ryu Shimazu
Smash Master
Well, not quite what I meant. Level 5 hasn't ever wowed me, and I gave Dark Cloud a good shot back in the day, and play some White Knight. Namco can be okay, and Sega is good I'll give you that
I really didn't mean because SE did bad everyone did, but last generation jrpgs did seem better, which is my thoughts :/
You're right, I kinda came off wrong. More or less I just named them because they tend to have high expectations. If a Tales game flops, eh,, but if a FF flops, it's bigger...at least I think? So I named them off, not the others. Sorry If I'm coming off confusing, running off low hours of sleep :x.
Monster Hunter Tri is NOT a jrpg. I consider jrpgs where you level up, have a cliche(I like cliche :D story), get armor/party members, etc. ToS, FFVII, FFXII, TWEWY(I forgot, sorry)* http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RPGElements
Hold on, let me check Metacritic.
List of JRPGs released since 1/1/2007 by Metascore (not including remakes, Nintendo published games, and portable games with Metascore < 85)
(Non-Square in italics.)
Persona 4 - 90
Demon's Souls - 89
Persona 3: FES - 89
The World Ends With You - 88
Dragon Quest IX - 87
Valkyria Chronicles - 86
Persona 3 - 86
Monster Hunter Tri - 84
Final Fantasy XIII - 83/82 (different scores for each console, wtf)
Eternal Sonata - 80/79 (again, different scores for each console)
Tales of Vesperia - 79
Blue Dragon - 79
Lost Odyssey - 78
Resonance of Fate - 74/72 (seriously, can we get some consistency up in this *****)
Star Ocean: The Last Hope (Star Ocean 4) - 74/72
THE ONLY GOOD JRPG THIS GENERATION INDEED.
Maybe before you make statements like that you should actually find out if it is good.
But seriously, there are good JRPGs this generation, it just happens that those are either niche (read: anime otaku) or marketed poorly (read: nobody buys them outside of Japan so the publishers don't work as hard on the next in the series and the quality keeps going down and down or the series goes to PSP), and the ones with good marketing (read: brand recognition) and marketed well (read: made by Square) have a ton of other faults. Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect 2, Oblivion, Borderlands, and Fallout 3 (but not New Vegas because that's a glitchy mess) are all great games this generation and I love them. But it irritates me a lot when people say things like "JRPGs are dead". They're not dead, you're just not willing to try things other than Final Fantasy.
So I'd like to end my argument with this image, which sums up what I think of JRPGs and WRPGs.
They're both awesome.
Anyways I'm just saying jrpgs are not doing so hot this generation, but I did say it very crappy, so my bad.
I'm also very narrowminded on what is considered a jrpg. I consider MHTri an action/rpg, and the same goes for Demon;s souls really.
Anyways my apologies for how I came off(and if this made nosense), but I just feel the ps2 era had better jrpgs. Also, don't base how games are off scores. That's terrible, because sometimes they are so far off from the truth.
What I consider the best of this generation (SO4) is considered that low because "it's too cliche" (look it up). Guess what, jrpgs are supposed to be cliche, it's kinda what they've always been story wise.
finalark
SNORLAX
This automatically disqualifies about 98% of the games I once thought were JRPGs from being JRPGs.
Ryu Shimazu
Smash Master
Well that was a contradiction/typo/whatever on my part. I meant cliche, not good. I'm multitasking, ;(
I find the cliche storylines entertaining though XD and the bad VAs
I find the cliche storylines entertaining though XD and the bad VAs
Whoa whoa whoa, let's not be hasty now. They made a good RPG with Valkyria Chronicles, but then they ruined it afterwards by releasing the sequels on a system that not only has one of the highest piracy rates but is also owned by like 5 people outside of Japan, the PSP.Sega is good I'll give you that
I mean really, did you think Sega was going to actually not run a franchise into the ground?
Monster Hunter is all about getting new armor and you can join up with other people to form a party.
Capcom can't write good stories though, I'll give you that much. Their stories can be summed up like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z65s0fqDw4
Or for E-rated games:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsPkVWwaDo4
(Yes, I know Symphony of the Night is made by Konami, but you gotta admit that this is every Capcom story ever)
If it's made by Japanese developers, it can be considered a Japanese game. It's really not that complicated. I mean, if you're going to separate action RPGs then you might as well not consider Kingdom Hearts a JRPG.
This is the inherent problem with the JRPG/WRPG mentality - neither of these two labels are genres in and of themselves, they're descriptors of a game based on where it's made. Yes they both tend have certain commonalities with other RPGs from their country of origin, but there are always exceptions to the rule (for JRPGs there's Demon's Souls, for WRPGs there's...uhh...Borderlands? idk).
Yeah, I'll agree with you there. PS2/Gamecube/Dreamcast had some great JRPGs.
SOMETIMES they're way off. USUALLY they're accurate, at least in getting a ballpark estimate.
Oh **** you.
Chrono Trigger had a great story, and that's so JRPG the guy from Dragonball was involved in it.
Besides, what are the plots for WRPGs?
Dragon Age - You're put in a fantasy setting, there's bad **** happening, you need to stop it. You can do this by either being a nice guy or a ****, but the end result is still generally the same.
Mass Effect - You're put in a sci-fi setting, there's bad **** happening, you need to stop it. You can do this by either being a nice guy or a ****, but the end result is still generally the same.
Fallout - You're put in a post-apocalyptic wasteland setting, there's bad **** happening, you need to stop it. You can do this by either being a nice guy or a ****, but the end result is still generally the same.
Fable - See Dragon Age.
Just about every RPG, Japanese or Western, follows the basic hero story archetype.
inb4 Queen's Blade.
finalark
SNORLAX
I agree, well, usually. Most of the time JRPG stories are so ridiculously bad that they're pretty funny in a "so-bad-it's-good" sort of way.
And if they're not that they're just painful to sit through.
You know, it's not like JRPGs are selling better on handhelds then they are on consoles.
And I happen to be one of those 5 people, by the way.
PS2 had some great stuff on it, have yet to play a single good Gamecube JRPG and Dreamcast only had two from what I know. Once of which being only slightly above average (Grandia II) and the other is one of my favorite games of all time (Skies of Arcadia).
Original Xbox had some good WRPGs on it if my memory serves.
Are they? I seriously don't know.
For some reason I thought Tales of Symphonia was Gamecube-only. Silly me.
Hey wait, it is Gamecube only outside of Japan.
And there's also the second Paper Mario game if you want to talk about general RPGs.
Xbox had the KOTOR series. That's about all I can think of.
EDIT: Oh wait, it also had Morrowind didn't it?
EDIT2: And Fable, how did I forget that?
Ryu Shimazu
Smash Master
Yeah, It's just with me it either feels like a jrpg or it doesn't.
Like I love Monster Hunter Tri, but it feels like a action jrpg, not a ...jrpg jrpg XD Chrono Trigger is a jrpg. SO4 is a jrpg, etc etc.
It's just a personal thing, is it wrong? yes...but it's me :x
I actually love all the games you mentioned Gates, I just think of them as other things. (I'm playing tri right now.. XD)
@Final Ark
Man dude, not all the stories are not -that- bad. Really, CT is amazing. It's...godly.
Like I love Monster Hunter Tri, but it feels like a action jrpg, not a ...jrpg jrpg XD Chrono Trigger is a jrpg. SO4 is a jrpg, etc etc.
It's just a personal thing, is it wrong? yes...but it's me :x
I actually love all the games you mentioned Gates, I just think of them as other things. (I'm playing tri right now.. XD)
@Final Ark
Man dude, not all the stories are not -that- bad. Really, CT is amazing. It's...godly.
finalark
SNORLAX
I'm not sure on CT's story, it's been years since I played it so I really don't remember it all that well.
Just look at the scores and sales for handheld JRPGs compared to their console counterparts. Clear as day.
Am I the only one who thought that ToS was an overwhelmingly generic JRPG? And I can't believe I forgot about TYD.
Like I said, original Xbox had some good western RPGs.
Chrono Trigger's story is well written but kinda generic up until the point where Chrono dies. That moment really stood out to me more than anything else in an RPG.
The fact that you could beat the game at any time and get vastly different endings was also cool.
ToS is generic as hell and I didn't particularly like it. The whole pilgrimage thing basically felt to me like a FFX ripoff (I even hummed the Hymn of the Fayth whenever I got to the end of a temple). It's not a terrible game though and they definitely did some interesting things with their battle system, but god damn is it bland. The dub leaves something to be desired too, even though they have the likes of Robin, Liquid Snake, Naomi Hunter, and Rikku. I guess direction really is everything.
The fact that you could beat the game at any time and get vastly different endings was also cool.
ToS is generic as hell and I didn't particularly like it. The whole pilgrimage thing basically felt to me like a FFX ripoff (I even hummed the Hymn of the Fayth whenever I got to the end of a temple). It's not a terrible game though and they definitely did some interesting things with their battle system, but god damn is it bland. The dub leaves something to be desired too, even though they have the likes of Robin, Liquid Snake, Naomi Hunter, and Rikku. I guess direction really is everything.
finalark
SNORLAX
You more or less summed up my opinion on the game. I thought wasn't terrible, just incredibly average. Honestly, I thought the battle system was kind of interesting but felt really shallow, plus the complete lack of character customization made the game kind of boring for me.
Minato
穏やかじゃない
Yeah. Even if the story was simple at times, it was really charming.
I feel like doing another playthrough in CT soon again. I also want to play Chrono Cross again after. I haven't played that in forever.
I enjoyed ToS, but it isn't my favorite Tales game by a mile. It basically mixed Phantasia and Eternia's stories accompanied with a battle system that was weaker than 2 of their other games that they made before ToS.
And also, all the good Tales games never leave Japan which makes me sad.
That's why most of the US fans praise Symphonia as the best.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Yeah, I actually really liked Chrono Cross when everybody hated it. I mean, the music in that alone is absolutely amazing. Man....even though it'll never happen, I wish we'd get a new Chrono game. That or Suikoden VII.
Ryu Shimazu
Smash Master
^ The Dream Team is no more =(
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Don't shatter my hope like that, maaan.
finalark
SNORLAX
What are the good Tales games that have been released in the west? Because of ToS really is the best of them then I'm sorry but that makes Tales one of the most overwhelmingly generic JRPG franchises ever.
And also, all the good Tales games never leave Japan which makes me sad.
That's why most of the US fans praise Symphonia as the best.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Tales isn't that series that was described by a bunch of people as "wandering around without and hints or direction and praying you wind up in the right spot eventually so you can go through a random dungeon again" is it?
finalark
SNORLAX
That's a good way to put it.
This might be a little mean spirited, but I'd describe ToS as being a mediocre congregation of nearly every JRPG cliche and trope ever made thus creating an incredibly shallow experience with zero character customization, forgettable dungeons and boring combat.
Why do so many people love that game again?
Ryu Shimazu
Smash Master
^ Because, it's just...idk. It was just fun I guess. I heard Vesperia was better, though.
finalark
SNORLAX
Well, each to his own. ToS was way to shallow for my tastes, never played any of the other Tales games though.
Ryu Shimazu
Smash Master
I heard a lot of the good ones are not in America, or something like that. (Minato said it too)
I'm pretty excited for SO4. Looks like a good ole jrpg :D
I'm pretty excited for SO4. Looks like a good ole jrpg :D
finalark
SNORLAX
I saw a copy of that game for $15 down at Walmart today. I thought about getting it before I decided to save my money for Christmas gifts.
I could never really get into SO anyway.
Minato
穏やかじゃない
ToS isn't the best in the US, IMO. I'd say it's Eternia (aka Tales of Destiny II for the US) or Vesperia for US ones, IMO.
But it's a shame since Bandai Namco has released so few of mainstream Tales games.
Out of all the Tales games, I'd say Symphonia has the 3rd worst battle system out of all the mainstream Tales games.
Everything else is miles better (which mostly goes for 2D ones and Graces than ToS's battle system).
For story, they aren't like FF or SMT quality. Best ones that stood out were Destiny, Eternia, Abyss, Rebirth, and Graces.
My personal favorites overall are Tales of Destiny Director's Cut for PS2 and Tales of Graces.
People should YT those two games, but make sure that ToD is the PS2 version and Graces is PS3.
But yeah, I think ToS is a good game. It's just that people blow it out of proportion and say it's better than it is since it's most people's first Tales game.
finalark
SNORLAX
So Eternia was good? I'll have to check it out, but does it have any character customization to it? One of my biggest complaints about ToS was the complete inability to alter your characters stats or abilities.
ToS was my first Tales game, and this was long before I even used the net regularly. I still thought that it was an average RPG. Maybe I'm just picky.
Minato
穏やかじゃない
Eternia was good, but it doesn't have a lot of customization. It has a better and faster battle system.
The story is like Symphonia (plot-wise), but is a bit better, IMO. I'd approach Eternia as more like an SNES type of RPG in that sense of simplicity.
Symphonia had customization though. You equip titles to alter and boost stats.
You can have two styles of techs that you can learn, things off of the Technical side or the Strike side.
Depending on which one you had, you'd learn completely new skills until you decided to equip equip EX Gems to move to the opposite side.
Plus, different EX Gems equipped gave you that specific character certain abilities (while some where unique for each character).
And if you equipped 2 or 3 certain gems, you'd be granted a compound ability.
I'd say Tales of Destiny 2 had the greatest customization out of all the Tales games.
You could synthesize and edit armor like in FFX, but it was really complicated. Although, that game never made it out here. It was fun though.
finalark
SNORLAX
What's the customization in Eternia like? I'm curious, although I am happy to hear about an improved battle system. Another problem I had with ToS was how shallow the fights where in the sense that you pretty much just mashed A and B, stopped to heal or use specific spells, then won.
And story really doesn't matter to me, just so long as it isn't painful or boring to sit through.
Seriously? I completely forgot about that. If I can find someone who owns the game I might have to give it another shot.
Hopefully the general blandness of the rest of the game won't be so distracting if I ever get a chance to play it again.
Minato
穏やかじゃない
Eternia didn't have much customization except for on your two mages.
There's something called Craymel Artes which are just summons and skills. It's pretty confusing, but you're able to have them learn which new spells you want and stuff. I really couldn't comprehend it in my playthrough and just played normally. It reminded me of FFVIII GFs along with other confusing stuff.
As for battles, Tales games have a certain combo system. Symphonia's wasn't as expansive as it is in other Tales games, and the game was pretty much easy on the Normal difficulty, so mashing A and heal was all you needed in that game.
The Tales games I like that most which aren't released are better since in those games, there isn't really MP.
And if there is, it's constantly regenerating. You can think of it as Star Ocean's 3 Fury gauge but as MP.
I found the beginning really boring (like the human ranches). Once you hit a certain part, it gets pretty enjoyable.
It's still stereotypical anime/jrpg stuff, regardless.
Brightside6382
Smash Lord
The SO series in general is just a glorified battle system. If you aren't hooked by the battles early then you know you probably won't like the game.
finalark
SNORLAX
I'm thinking about picking up Resonance of Fate. Has anyone played it?