Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[pupNapoleon]

We got 4 new Pokemon in Brawl. Pokemon Trainer is not a character you literally play as. Sakurai has outright said that Brawl has 39 playable characters. We only got two new Pokemon slots in Brawl. Slot does not equal character.

We've had 6 playable characters during Brawl, with 2 cut from Melee. There is nothing that suggests Pichu was going to return like Mewtwo was. In addition, there is no telling what Pra_Mai actually was, which means Brawl was intended(that we can say for sure with the information we actually have) to have 7 Pokemon, and 5 Mario characters, respectively. Same with 3 DK(as Dixie has her own unique file), 3 Fire Emblem, and 7 Zelda characters.

In addition, Greninja had nothing to do with popularity. Sakurai chose him before he fully existed, by looking at his beta design. He outright said this as well. Greninja just happened to have gained popularity before he was announced.

Mewtwo was never "high priority" for Sakurai. He was intended to be in 64, but time constraints took their toll. Jigglypuff was simply easier to put in due to having a similar body shape to Kirby, making her basically a semi-clone(sharing a lot of similarities, but still quite unique. Wolf actually was more unique than her, interestingly enough). They had enough time to throw him in Melee. Then Brawl came around, and he clearly didn't get in, but had work done on him. And we know what happened in 4. He was worked on really late in development, as he had no more than a model. We don't know if he was literally started after 4's Wii U release or not, although Sakurai did say they waited till after, but I may be misremembering that bit.

In addition, slots = characters only was accurate during Smash 64, when it was impossible to change to another character in-game. Transformations simply didn't exist. Smash 4 is very awkard about this, due to Alts and how every Mii is literally more than one character in a single slot(you choose the slot, then choose which "costume" to play as).

IMO, I think what Pokemon is ultimately missing is stages. It has an excellent all-star cast right now, with movesets based often upon both the Anime and the Games, which is a pretty good representation of the series as a whole, again, imo.

Gotta hate when you type up a response and it just vanishes...

In short...this is what I believe that missing post said:

Pokemon Trainer is a very unique case, but of course he is a veteran. He is not exactly playable, but he is selectable, which makes him more than a NPC. There is no way around the fact that he is a veteran.
I never brought up slots, 8 Pokemon in Brawl, etc.

Greninja was conceived to be popular, just as Charizard was before (and usually was the Fire Starter). His design as well as kickass hidden ability, not to mention stats, make this apparent. There are entire fields devoted to predicting public response, it is not a flippant happening. He was made to be popular from the beginning.

I'm not sure why you bring up Mewtwo, but if anything, the fact that the only character other than Pikachu to be added from Pokemon for reasoning MORE than popularity, shows exactly that only popular Pokemon get in, and that is ridiculous. Can you imagine another series where only popular picks got in? No, it is unfeasible. It is a poor way to represent a series- thats why we have no Midna or Ghirahim, why we don't have Daisy. Just because a character is cool does not make it the best option, particularly wherein elements of the franchise go completely untouched. The whole of the Pokemon in the game do not represent more than the parts of which comprise them, and that cannot be said for any other series. The sum is not greater than its parts, its just random Pokemon. That's disrespectful to the franchise!

Nothing that makes Pokemon the franchise we know it to be is represented in Smash Bros. Sakurai says he strives to bring the feeling of each universe into Smash Bros. Pokemon fails on all accounts with this. You claim that the moves are from the anime/game, but the fact is that they are just named after the moves from the anime/games, and have often very little to do with them. Mewtwo's disable does not disable, Hydro Pump is not an intense water blast. The moves are weak imitations going only by a nominal relationship, and that is it.

There is also just a fundamental flaw in trying to pick out the most popular characters from a series which has so many contenders, and wherein each fan has a personal choice. I doubt, in the next game when Animal Crossing has a shot at 2-3 characters, that this will be based on 'popularity.' Sorry fans of Cherry, Beardo, and Pancetti.
Instead, we are likely to get the characters that are most important to the game- already Isabelle and Tom Nook are the only ones even truly discussed. Pokemon is treated differently than, literally, every other series in Smash Bros. To try to justify the protagonist of the series, the character with which an anime icon was launched into being a household name, not being in the game, is to come up with delusions to tell yourself in order to justify Sakurai's actions. There is no excuse. Until we have this character, there is not even an attempt to make Pokemon feel better represented. Nothing that makes Pokemon Special is in the game, because all of the characters were chosen without being special themselves- they carry their names, and that is all they bring to the table.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

The logic is in how universes are represented.
I didnt say they cannot have any standard attacks, but Dixie being Dixie means she is inherently a lot like Diddy, as far as how they play in their OWN games, and how it would be accurately portrayed in Smash.
Again, my logic expanded into a vast array of points, with the thesis involving 'World Vocabulary.' No where did I say 'they are Monkeys and need to play the same way.' Rhythm Heaven monkeys should not play anything like Diddy just because they are apes. That isn't the point at all.
...and of course Dixie would use her hair. In fact, the prime example I had to fill my example above, is 'like Diddy, but fights and floats with her hair. That's what she is in the DK universe, it would be disproportionate to her character* to claim the MECHANICS OF THE HOME UNIVERSE** (The biggest influence in majority of the characters' movesets) are thrown out the window.

*There are things that are more and less important to characters. The Paintbrush of Bowser Jrs, for example, is one tool in one game. It was a ridiculous choice for an entire move set because it doesnt represent the character, it is just one small part of him. A moveset with the Inklings that ignores the benefit of inking the ground, or turning into a squid, or over emphasis the sub weapons, misappropriates the important parts of the character. With Dixie, yes, she uses her hair. However, this cannot be an entire move set. If it were her only means of doing anything in Smash, it doesn't show us the Dixie we know from DKC. An amalgamation of her differences (the bubble gum, hair, Guitar, whatever else) might all be accurate, but the overall representation of the characters would be lost. Diddy and Dixie are so in line with each other, they were almost a tag team. Making them too different just to make a character unique destroys the integrity of what is Dixie.

**Mechanics of the universe are represented in every character. Sakurai once stated he wants Smash Bros, as much as possible, to feel as though the characters were plucked from their home universes and put into this game (he said this in reference to a Megaman response, I can quote if needed). The only ones who don't are amalgamations of their entire universe (Mr Game and Watch, Pacman, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt). Dixie is not an amalgamation of her universe, as she is going to theoretically be brought into the game alongside at least Diddy and Donkey. She must fit in her place among side them, congruently. It does not mean that they must be exact replicas, obviously- but they, as we have seen with other characters who could have taken on drastic playstyle differences (the three groups I said above), this is not how Sakurai handles it. That doesn't represent the essence of the universe. It is of course up to the individual to decide what feels like the universe being brought into Smash- but I can assuredly state a Diddy and Dixie as different as Samus and Zero Suit Samus just doesn't fit with what the characters are in their own games.

But the thing is DKC is a platformer, every character has to play similarly in order for the games to function. If anything Diddy and Donkey are closer than Diddy and Dixie are in their home games. That's just looking at the country games, in spinoffs however while Diddy is normally a speed character, Dixie is technique. And to use a specific example in King of Swing DK has 3 stars in attack while Didy has 2 and Dixie 1 while Donkey has 3 in jump, diddy 4 and Dixie 5. The way she plays in the country games in itself also shows this, being the generally safer and slower option with higher aerial mobility over DK and Diddy. Because of this she wouldn't really fit Diddys aggressive, rushdown playstyle

 

[Champ Gold]

But the thing is DKC is a platformer, every character has to play similarly in order for the games to function. If anything Diddy and Donkey are closer than Diddy and Dixie are in their home games. That's just looking at the country games, in spinoffs however while Diddy is normally a speed character, Dixie is technique. And to use a specific example in King of Swing DK has 3 stars in attack while Didy has 2 and Dixie 1 while Donkey has 3 in jump, diddy 4 and Dixie 5. The way she plays in the country games in itself also shows this, being the generally safer and slower option with higher aerial mobility over DK and Diddy. Because of this she wouldn't really fit Diddys aggressive, rushdown playstyle

Pretty much. While DK is more Power base, Diddy is speed based; Dixie is an all-around character with a stronger emphasis in the air due to her gliding skills

 

[pupNapoleon]

But the thing is DKC is a platformer, every character has to play similarly in order for the games to function. If anything Diddy and Donkey are closer than Diddy and Dixie are in their home games. That's just looking at the country games, in spinoffs however while Diddy is normally a speed character, Dixie is technique. And to use a specific example in King of Swing DK has 3 stars in attack while Didy has 2 and Dixie 1 while Donkey has 3 in jump, diddy 4 and Dixie 5. The way she plays in the country games in itself also shows this, being the generally safer and slower option with higher aerial mobility over DK and Diddy. Because of this she wouldn't really fit Diddys aggressive, rushdown playstyle

Let me be clear, when I say play style, I am not subjecting the character to the bias ways in which the player will utilize them; I speak of the manner in which each character carries herself.
Ness and Lucas are literally from two different games, and apparently are supposed to be pretty different in regard to personality and moves used. Yet, in Smash, they have what I will refer to as a single derived move set. Fox, Falco, and Wolf, are not even directly playable in their games- they could have been made into ANYTHING and it might have worked. Why do they share a derived play style then? The answer is, to exemplify the vocabulary of their home universe. There is no reason to make them particularly different from each other when there are plenty of other characters that have to still find more variance. Not just that, a little bit in common makes it easier to believe they are from the same universe.

It is clear from how Sakurai handles the characters that he does try to make each series follow its own set of guidelines. Smash Bros is not simply a hodge podge of characters, the characters do represent their franchises, and each franchise has within all of its characters a moderate level of similarities, to make them feel like they each have the same home. Let me try to explain this another way... If we were to say each series were a planet, it would be to make the characters who are all from the same planet, feel as though they were from the same planet. Each series might as well be its own species, and in Smash bros, each species must be varied enough from the other species, but still with enough similar between them to be able to tell they are, in fact, the same species.

The only real franchises against this rule are Pokemon and Mario, and they, arguably, have more than one species each, more than one planet, considering each is derived of a vast number of games, and even a large number of subseries.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Greninja was not "perceived to be popular". Sakurai just liked his design, and that was it. That's literally what it was all about. The fact Greninja became popular was a happy coincidence, nowhere near the official reasoning. You're using confirmation bias and an unproven theory. Especially when Sakurai never once implied this to be the case.

FYI, Mewtwo was not some mascot either, he got into Smash because he was popular(massively so). That's it. He was in the same position as Lucario, massively popular(Lucario did happen to be the Gen IV mascot as well, but that's why he was clearly higher priority than Mewtwo. Gotta show off the new stuff heavily. This is quite notable time and time again when they cut various Pokeballs and Courses for newer stuff. It's not a direct form of advertisement, but it's quite clearly intended to show off Gamefreak's newest stuff). Greninja was the only one definitely not chosen simply for popularity or because they "match the set well". He didn't exist yet. How can popularity seriously be a reason when nobody knew who he was? That's illogical, honestly.

I won't argue against Pokemon Trainer being a vet. Of course he is. The problem is, his gameplay didn't translate well to the 3DS, so he had to be cut. Him controlling 1 or 2 Pokemon is fine too regardless. Of course, this is also why Ivysaur and Squirtle got the axe(the 3DS could not handle multiple strong A.I. like Ice Climbers or non-Final Smash Transformations). The fact is, they also do not hold a candle to Charizard's popularity, which is why he's back, and they aren't. They barely got in on their own merits, it was pretty much to complete the triangle(really, the chances of them getting in on their own are severely low. As a team, sure, easy. But Ivysaur just wasn't that popular compared to Bulbasaur or Venusaur. Squirtle is definitely higher, but Blastoise beats him too. The exact combination was blatantly to show off as much of PT's unique ideas as possible). The concept was for PT to show off team battling. And to be fair, it did it better than Zelda/Sheik overall. Even if it being forced was annoying to some, the idea was far more clearly there. All 3 Pokemon were better balanced than Z/S were.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Let me be clear, when I say play style, I am not subjecting the character to the bias ways in which the player will utilize them; I speak of the manner in which the character carries herself.
Ness and Lucas are literally from two different games, and apparently are supposed to be pretty different in regard to personality and moves used. Yet, in Smash, they have what I will refer to as a single derived move set. Fox, Falco, and Wolf, are not even playable in their games- they could have been made into ANYTHING and it might have worked. Why do they share a derived play style then? To exemplify the vocabulary of their home universe. There is no reason to make them so different from each other when there are plenty of other characters that have to still find more variance. Not just that, it makes it easier to believe they are from the same universe.

It is clear from how Sakurai handles the characters that he does try to make each series follow its own set of guidelines. Smash Bros is not simply a hodge podge of characters, the characters do represent their franchises, and each franchise has within all of its characters a moderate level of similarities, to make them feel like they each have the same home. Let me try to explain this another way... If we were to say each series were a planet, it would be to make the characters who are all from the same planet, feel as though they were from the same planet. Each series might as well be its own species, and in Smash bros, each species must be varied enough from the other species, but still with enough similar between them to be able to tell they are, in fact, the same species.

The only real franchises against this rule are Pokemon and Mario, and they, arguably, have more than one species each, more than one planet, considering each is derived of a vast number of games, and even a large number of subseries.

Im not sure I'm following, you're telling me that just because 2 characters are from the same series they have to play similarly? I don't see why that would need to be the case, you gave examples of Ness to Lucas and Fox to Falco and Wolf but they are the same simply because they have nothing to really base their moves on as RPGs and rail shooters can't really lend themselves to fighters so basing them on a preexisting character makes sense whereas platformers do and Dixie has things to base them on. It's like saying Bowser Jr or Rosalina would be clones simply cause they are from the same series and look kinda similar.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Greninja was not "perceived to be popular". Sakurai just liked his design, and that was it. That's literally what it was all about. The fact Greninja became popular was a happy coincidence, nowhere near the official reasoning. You're using confirmation bias and an unproven theory. Especially when Sakurai never once implied this to be the case.

Firstly, if you are going to criticize something I state because I "have no source to back it up," then you better damned well have a source yourself.
Secondly, it is no happy coincidence. I demonstrated specific reasons as to why, of the three starters, Greninja was designed to be the popular one. That said... Sakurai has given us exactly *one* response toward how Pokemon characters are selected. Within it, he states that TPC has a lot of say in the manner, and that essentially, they give him a few options, and he picks from them. The options that they give him are all characters who are going to be prominently featured in the anime (which also, often, has much to do with who becomes popular). How many options they gave Sakurai, is unknown. However, it is not every Pokemon of the generation. They likely only provide the option for him to choose one which they expect to be popular. It is not random, it is not baseless, it is business.

FYI, Mewtwo was not some mascot either, he got into Smash because he was popular(massively so). That's it. He was in the same position as Lucario, massively popular(Lucario did happen to be the Gen IV mascot as well, but that's why he was clearly higher priority than Mewtwo. Gotta show off the new stuff heavily. This is quite notable time and time again when they cut various Pokeballs and Courses for newer stuff. It's not a direct form of advertisement, but it's quite clearly intended to show off Gamefreak's newest stuff). Greninja was the only one definitely not chosen simply for popularity or because they "match the set well". He didn't exist yet. How can popularity seriously be a reason when nobody knew who he was? That's illogical, honestly.

Actually... my claim is that Mewtwo is the only character of Pokemon in the current roster, other than Pikachu, who has more than popularity going for him. He is the original Legendary, he is a perceived antagonist (and by many determing factors, a villain), he is the big bad at the end of the original game. There is plenty on the side of Mewtwo being more than a merely popular choice. I never said he was not, also, popular, just that he has far more qualifying him as a worthy option.

To go back to popularity before being known- yes, things can be made to be popular. It could be a miss, but no, sociology, economics, and especially marketing, are heavily based around trying to determine what the masses will enjoy.
This is a business, and it exists, in foremost, to make a profit. If you think decisions are just made with the flip of a coin, then you are the one who is not using logic. Anyone with a job in the media, or one of these fields, hell- many other fields, can tell you that popularity is not something that just happens, at least not always- it is often extremely predictable, and particularly, is at least attempted to be predicted beforehand.

I won't argue against Pokemon Trainer being a vet. Of course he is. The problem is, his gameplay didn't translate well to the 3DS, so he had to be cut. Him controlling 1 or 2 Pokemon is fine too regardless. Of course, this is also why Ivysaur and Squirtle got the axe(the 3DS could not handle multiple strong A.I. like Ice Climbers or non-Final Smash Transformations). The fact is, they also do not hold a candle to Charizard's popularity, which is why he's back, and they aren't. They barely got in on their own merits, it was pretty much to complete the triangle(really, the chances of them getting in on their own are severely low. As a team, sure, easy. But Ivysaur just wasn't that popular compared to Bulbasaur or Venusaur. Squirtle is definitely higher, but Blastoise beats him too. The exact combination was blatantly to show off as much of PT's unique ideas as possible). The concept was for PT to show off team battling. And to be fair, it did it better than Zelda/Sheik overall. Even if it being forced was annoying to some, the idea was far more clearly there. All 3 Pokemon were better balanced than Z/S were.

For someone that seems to think I'm just spouting information, you don't make much a case for yourself in providing any source at all to claim anything of yours as more than a mere idea. Squirtle is more popular than Blastoise... but that is beside the point.
To start, and I've been waiting to say this, Ivysaur is visually iconic and identifiable as either Bulbasaur or Venusaur. It doesn't matter that they are not technically the same Pokemon, just the same that it doesnt matter that each Pokemon is actually a species and not a character. The original starters are the most iconic, and all three of the families are more iconic than nearly any other generation of Pokemon, and even more so than majority of the roster currently in Super Smash Bros. Pokemon is iconic and breeds money- the popularity of these characters is incomparable to many other Nintendo characters not in the Mario franchise.
Secondly, I never said that Pokemon Trainer needed to return in his previous form. Sure, he would be the most reworked character, but he was also in the most precarious position. The gameplay he had in Brawl is not the definition of what his game play MUST be in any future games.

This is all to say that my point on Pokemon is that Popularity is not enough to rep a franchise. Somehow your response in which you mostly discuss the popularity of one Pokemon to another, doesnt seem to properly relay this thesis.

Im not sure I'm following, you're telling me that just because 2 characters are from the same series they have to play similarly? I don't see why that would need to be the case, you gave examples of Ness to Lucas and Fox to Falco and Wolf but they are the same simply because they have nothing to really base their moves on as RPGs and rail shooters can't really lend themselves to fighters so basing them on a preexisting character makes sense whereas platformers do and Dixie has things to base them on. It's like saying Bowser Jr or Rosalina would be clones simply cause they are from the same series and look kinda similar.

I said, with the exception of Mario and Pokemon (which includes Bowser Jr and Rosalina), each franchise is treated as a race, and the characters have a moderate level of common tropes and play elements to demonstrate that they are their own race. (I said species, but race is easier). All the Fire Emblem characters are, say, Emblians, and share common elements in how they are represented. All of the sword users have the same down B, the animations used for each beckon one another, etc. All the Kirbians have a similarity in jumps and floatiness. We've already gone over the other multi-repped series of theoretical Starfoxians and Earthboundians. There are pieces of each race that hold them in relationship to each other.

Anywho, PM me if you want to continue either of these conversations, I'm getting tired of being redundant.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Firstly, if you are going to criticize something I state because I "have no source to back it up," then you better damned well have a source yourself.
Secondly, it is no happy coincidence. I demonstrated specific reasons as to why, of the three starters, Greninja was designed to be the popular one. That said... Sakurai has given us exactly *one* response toward how Pokemon characters are selected. Within it, he states that TPC has a lot of say in the manner, and that essentially, they give him a few options, and he picks from them. The options that they give him are all characters who are going to be prominently featured in the anime (which also, often, has much to do with who becomes popular). How many options they gave Sakurai, is unknown. However, it is not every Pokemon of the generation. They likely only provide the option for him to choose one which they expect to be popular. It is not random, it is not baseless, it is business.


Actually... my claim is that Mewtwo is the only character of Pokemon in the current roster, other than Pikachu, who has more than popularity going for him. He is the original Legendary, he is a perceived antagonist (and by many determing factors, a villain), he is the big bad at the end of the original game. There is plenty on the side of Mewtwo being more than a merely popular choice. I never said he was not, also, popular, just that he has far more qualifying him as a worthy option.

To go back to popularity before being known- yes, things can be made to be popular. It could be a miss, but no, sociology, economics, and especially marketing, are heavily based around trying to determine what the masses will enjoy.
This is a business, and it exists, in foremost, to make a profit. If you think decisions are just made with the flip of a coin, then you are the one who is not using logic. Anyone with a job in the media, or one of these fields, hell- many other fields, can tell you that popularity is not something that just happens, at least not always- it is often extremely predictable, and particularly, is at least attempted to be predicted beforehand.


For someone that seems to think I'm just spouting information, you don't make much a case for yourself in providing any source at all to claim anything of yours as more than a mere idea. Squirtle is more popular than Blastoise... but that is beside the point.
To start, and I've been waiting to say this, Ivysaur is visually iconic and identifiable as either Bulbasaur or Venusaur. It doesn't matter that they are not technically the same Pokemon, just the same that it doesnt matter that each Pokemon is actually a species and not a character. The original starters are the most iconic, and all three of the families are more iconic than nearly any other generation of Pokemon, and even more so than majority of the roster currently in Super Smash Bros. Pokemon is iconic and breeds money- the popularity of these characters is incomparable to many other Nintendo characters not in the Mario franchise.
Secondly, I never said that Pokemon Trainer needed to return in his previous form. Sure, he would be the most reworked character, but he was also in the most precarious position. The gameplay he had in Brawl is not the definition of what his game play MUST be in any future games.

This is all to say that my point on Pokemon is that Popularity is not enough to rep a franchise. Somehow your response in which you mostly discuss the popularity of one Pokemon to another, doesnt seem to properly relay this thesis.


I said, with the exception of Mario and Pokemon (which includes Bowser Jr and Rosalina), each franchise is treated as a race, and the characters have a moderate level of common tropes and play elements to demonstrate that they are their own race. (I said species, but race is easier). All the Fire Emblem characters are, say, Emblians, and share common elements in how they are represented. All of the sword users have the same down B, the animations used for each beckon one another, etc. All the Kirbians have a similarity in jumps and floatiness. We've already gone over the other multi-repped series of theoretical Starfoxians and Earthboundians. There are pieces of each race that hold them in relationship to each other.

Anywho, PM me if you want to continue either of these conversations, I'm getting tired of being redundant.

Fine, you do you I guess but I see nothing wrong with a character being different and setting themselves apart from other characters in their franchise

 

[pupNapoleon]

It breaks the verisimilitude of the established universe.

 

[AxewX]

DLC for more options and features in the stage builder?

 

[Deleted member]

Krystal another Star Fox character that should get added. She can use her blaster. Plus her staff and, kicks, and punches. Plus some psychic attacks.

Fun to talk about characters we usually don't discuss.

 

[pupNapoleon]

DLC for more options and features in the stage builder?

Yep. Part of the giant new expansion DLC pack we will be getting

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Krystal another Star Fox character that should get added. She can use her blaster.

Isn't that ass backwards considering why many people opted for Krystal in the first place? Just saiyan, don't mind Krystal, but Wolf needs to come back first

 

[DustyPumpkin]

Also, I do not tend to care what a move is named. That is just a marketing technique. Calling his Up B "Hydro Pump" is a mockery of the move, which is supposed to be one of the most powerful water based moves. The visual of it, looking nothing like the move either, only proves my point further.

Yeah let's be honest here, Greninja's UpB is just a fancy Water gun at best.

 

[Arcadenik]

We got 4 new Pokemon in Brawl. Pokemon Trainer is not a character you literally play as. Sakurai has outright said that Brawl has 39 playable characters. We only got two new Pokemon slots in Brawl. Slot does not equal character.

We've had 6 playable characters during Brawl, with 2 cut from Melee. There is nothing that suggests Pichu was going to return like Mewtwo was. In addition, there is no telling what Pra_Mai actually was, which means Brawl was intended(that we can say for sure with the information we actually have) to have 7 Pokemon, and 5 Mario characters, respectively. Same with 3 DK(as Dixie has her own unique file), 3 Fire Emblem, and 7 Zelda characters.

In addition, Greninja had nothing to do with popularity. Sakurai chose him before he fully existed, by looking at his beta design. He outright said this as well. Greninja just happened to have gained popularity before he was announced.

Mewtwo was never "high priority" for Sakurai. He was intended to be in 64, but time constraints took their toll. Jigglypuff was simply easier to put in due to having a similar body shape to Kirby, making her basically a semi-clone(sharing a lot of similarities, but still quite unique. Wolf actually was more unique than her, interestingly enough). They had enough time to throw him in Melee. Then Brawl came around, and he clearly didn't get in, but had work done on him. And we know what happened in 4. He was worked on really late in development, as he had no more than a model. We don't know if he was literally started after 4's Wii U release or not, although Sakurai did say they waited till after, but I may be misremembering that bit.

In addition, slots = characters only was accurate during Smash 64, when it was impossible to change to another character in-game. Transformations simply didn't exist. Smash 4 is very awkard about this, due to Alts and how every Mii is literally more than one character in a single slot(you choose the slot, then choose which "costume" to play as).

IMO, I think what Pokemon is ultimately missing is stages. It has an excellent all-star cast right now, with movesets based often upon both the Anime and the Games, which is a pretty good representation of the series as a whole, again, imo.

Yeah, I think the Pokemon roster is pretty good... I just wish that they would bring back and and add (collectively named "Team Rocket").

I also wish that the Pokemon stages were more varied. People complain about Metroid getting lava stages and Donkey Kong getting jungle stages. Well, my complaint is that Pokemon keeps getting transforming stadium stages (Pokemon Stadium 1/2 and Kalos Pokemon League). I would like a stage based on Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and a stage based on Pokemon Snap and a stage based on Meowth's Party... or stages based on recurring locations like Cycling Road and Safari Zone... or just bring back Saffron City and Poke Floats.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

I wish that Gengar and Meowth were added... then I would be completely satisfied to the Pokemon roster.

Sadly, I don't think they'll ever happen. Meowth's best chance was during SSB64 and Melee, and Gengar's chances were never that good.

 

[Vintage Creep]

I wish that Gengar and Meowth were added... then I would be completely satisfied to the Pokemon roster.

Sadly, I don't think they'll ever happen. Meowth's best chance was during SSB64 and Melee, and Gengar's chances were never that good.

Well there's Pokkén Tournament. Actually, Meowth would be a pretty interesting addition to the roster and I think he has a chance since for now it's mostly a generation 1 festival.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

It breaks the verisimilitude of the established universe.

Except that's irrelevant because you already pointed out how Mario and Pokemon break this concept, so does Ganondorf being a Falcon clone or Robin being a magic user, you're just making up rules that doesn't exist at this point

 

[DustyPumpkin]

Also where in the world did Zero suit Samus getting a laser whip come from

 

[GreenKirby]

Or why Rosalina would ever let her children fight alongside her

 

[pupNapoleon]

Except that's irrelevant because you already pointed out how Mario and Pokemon break this concept, so does Ganondorf being a Falcon clone or Robin being a magic user, you're just making up rules that doesn't exist at this point

I don't think you understand what the word I used means, because this response has nothing to do with disproving the concept. All established fantasy universes need to have verisimilitude to feel real in any way.

Spoiler

That is to say, I expressed clearly why Pokemon and Mario are an exception, and I'm not sure why you bring up Ganondorf or Robin. The one being a clone does not make him a misrepresentation, and the other being a magic user is... accurate. For more on Robin, see comment below about Zero Suit Samus and the importance of representing the franchise worlds' mechanics.

Or why Rosalina would ever let her children fight alongside her

This is one of those regurgitated arguments. In the very beginning of Mario Galaxy, Rosalina gives Mario the spin Luma to fight inside him, presumably taking any damage Mario does. The universes (the Luma) destroy themselves all the time. There is not a reason she wouldn't use them for what they are- she respects them for what they are, but she uses them all none the less.

Listing off a bunch of things in a row that break canon, to a degree, has nothing to do with verisimilitude. We can list them all day, all that does is actually further the point that the mechanics of the universe are the most important parts to represent; such as a bounty hunter having a whip... it is not canon, but it sure as hell makes sense in regard to the persona.

Making up rules is literally the antithesis of what I am doing- which is stating that verified boundaries already in the game, are not going to be broken. For more on why breaking the verisimilitude of a fictional reality is always noticed and resented by the fans, see: Jar Jar Binks.

 

[Crimson23]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?
I mean new, so not veterans such as Wolf. (I'm not against these guys, I just want to know what new characters people would like to see. Just to clarify.)
I'm not really sure of mine. I really like the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee, I'm good with Shantae, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?
I mean new, so not veterans such as Wolf. (I'm not against these guys, I just want to know what new characters people would like to see. Just to clarify.)
I'm not really sure of mine. I really like the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee, I'm good with Shantae, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

No, it's not weird at all.

It's quite easy for me:
1. K. Rool
2. Bandana Dee
3. Captain Toad
4. Black Mage
5. Bomberman
6. Ridley
7. Gengar
8. Ganon
9. Kamek
10. Magolor
11. Meowth
...oh, that's 11 already.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Balloon Fighter
Bomberman
Captain Toad
Chibi Robo
Chorus Kids
Dixie
Excite Biker
Isaac
Isabelle
K Rool
Lip
Ray 01
Rayman
Ridley
Team ___ (Rocket, Magma, Aqua, etc; all of these, utilizing trap iconic items from Pokemon, such as the Silph Scope. Wont happen.)
Waluigi (first time I've ever listed him, apparently I've been converted)

 

[Schnee117]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?

Not really. It comes across every now and then.
So to the point:
1. King K Rool
2. Mecha Fiora
3. Nightmare (Soul Calibur)
4. Wonder Red
5. Isaac
6. Elma
7. Azura
8. Waluigi
9. Alucard
10. Ridley

 

[Troykv]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?
I mean new, so not veterans such as Wolf. (I'm not against these guys, I just want to know what new characters people would like to see. Just to clarify.)
I'm not really sure of mine. I really like the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee, I'm good with Shantae, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

My Top 10 always has two characters:

- Micaiah (My most wanted)
- Adeleine (My former most wanted)

But I also could like see characters like Bandana Dee, King K. Rool, Waluigi, Ashley, etc.

 

[Kenith]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?
I mean new, so not veterans such as Wolf. (I'm not against these guys, I just want to know what new characters people would like to see. Just to clarify.)
I'm not really sure of mine. I really like the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee, I'm good with Shantae, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

^
+ Lloyd Irving and Ridley.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Nabbit
Captain Cuttlefish
Captain Toad
Daisy
Dixie Kong
Inkling
Lana
King K. Rool
Azura
Tetra

 

[Deleted member]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?
I mean new, so not veterans such as Wolf. (I'm not against these guys, I just want to know what new characters people would like to see. Just to clarify.)
I'm not really sure of mine. I really like the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee, I'm good with Shantae, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

In no particular order:

1. Simon Belmont
2. Zael
   
3. King K. Rool
4. Dixie Kong
5. Tetra, Impa, and/or Ganon
6. Fiora, Melia, and/or Reyn
7. Tails, Knuckles, and/or Eggman
8. Zero
9. Bandana Dee
10. Isaac

 

[Enderwoman]

Pokemon may have six characters, but to say it is well represented, is absolute malarkey. I'd argue it is one of the most poorly represented series, despite being well repped in Brawl (given what was possible) then, and that roster alone was a better representation than the current one.

To me it looks like your only reasons for thinking Pokemon is represented poorly is because there isn't as much content as you'd like there to be (and there is a lot) and that creative liberties are bad.

 

[pupNapoleon]

To me it looks like your only reasons for thinking Pokemon is represented poorly is because there isn't as much content as you'd like there to be and that creative liberties are bad.

It's not a matter of what I want- the facts for the importance of the series are indisputable.
However, damned right the creative liberties are poorly done, it isn't given the respect other series are given.
A 15 point argument based on facts does not boil down to merely an opinion.

 

[Enderwoman]

It's not a matter of what I want- the facts for the importance of the series are indisputable.
However, damned right the creative liberties are poorly done, it isn't given the respect other series are given.
A 15 point argument based on facts does not boil down to an opinion.

I don't see how much you expect them to pull from the source. Do you just expect them to make everything a move from the games, even if its just their standard attacks?

 

[Joseppo]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?
I mean new, so not veterans such as Wolf. (I'm not against these guys, I just want to know what new characters people would like to see. Just to clarify.)
I'm not really sure of mine. I really like the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee, I'm good with Shantae, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Phoenix Wright x10 ...with an Edgeworth skin if it could be, please.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't see how much you expect them to pull from the source. Do you just expect them to make everything a move from the games, even if its just their standard attacks?

That would be more damaging to the Pokemon imo, as Pokemon should only learn 4 moves in the games, not to mention grabs would be very irritating to come up with

 

[pupNapoleon]

I don't see how much you expect them to pull from the source. Do you just expect them to make everything a move from the games, even if its just their standard attacks?

I except them to showcase the elements that make Pokemon the unique experience it is, not a hodge podge of random and popular monsters. These are things I've said in several of my posts, which all build on one another when they are posted in succession.

I've expressed explicitly and repeated a number of facts, including how much 'naming a move after a Pokemon move,' makes it nothing of the actual franchise. Things like only 4 moves to a Pokemon, while canon, also have very little to do with the actual gameplay experience of Pokemon; it is simply a fact that, if exemplified in Smash Bros, would be exaggerated into importance. It may be true of the series, but it is in no way a trademark of it.

I want to see the essence of Pokemon in the game, which boils down to strategic strategy, capturing them all, and training the creatures.
However, there are a number of other aspects that make it unique: The items, the breeding, the multiple kinds of battle... not to mention that these are all from the main games, not even any of the highly selling spinoffs.

Literally... I'm done with this discussion for the day, I cannot repeat myself anymore so continuously without going a bit insane over it. If anyone wants my views on the matter, read the 10 posts I've submit in the past 12 hours, all on this and the last page.
(And though I say this, I am aware I will end up posting if I directly see the further propagation of a concept which is incomprehensibly nonrepresentational of the series).

 

[Zerp]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?
I mean new, so not veterans such as Wolf. (I'm not against these guys, I just want to know what new characters people would like to see. Just to clarify.)
I'm not really sure of mine. I really like the idea of Bandana Waddle Dee, I'm good with Shantae, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

1. Bandana Dee
1. Dark Matter
1. Jirachi
4. Magolor
4. Paper Mario
6. Wolf
7. K. Rool*
8. Isaac*
9. Pichu
10. Delphox
Edit: Whoops,I'm a idiot, If I can't use vets then,

1. Bandana Dee
1. Dark Matter
1. Jirachi
4. Magolor
4. Paper Mario
6. K. Rool*
7. Isaac*
8. Delphox
9. Waluigi
10. Eggman

* Means I don't really want the character for myself but I just want to see justice done for their fanbases.

DLC for more options and features in the stage builder?

I'd absolutely love that, I've always wanted more flexibility when creating stages.

 

[pupNapoleon]

1. Bandana Dee
1. Dark Matter

I would love to see Dark Matter... but that brings me to the point that I would also like to see Andross be playable. There is just an unnecessary consensus that it could not be done, with which as a premise, I disagree.
Also, you posted three number ones. I see the ranking... but I'm surprised there is anyone over Jirachi.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

1- Ridley
2 - Savvy Stylist
3 - King K Rool
4 - Matthew/Issac
5 - Ray Mk3
6 - Medusa
7 - Chibi Robo
8 - Chorus Kids
9 - Miss Madeline(Magical Starsign)
10 - Lip

 

[RouffWestie]

Would it be weird if I asked you to list 10 new characters you want for the ballot?
I mean new, so not veterans such as Wolf. (I'm not against these guys, I just want to know what new characters people would like to see. Just to clarify.)

If it has to be new, they gotta make them the way I want them to be.
Tails with a new flight or multi-jump mechanic based on the way it works in Sonic games
Daisy with a moveset and playstyle that is a direct antithesis to Peach
Pulseman acting similar to Plasma-type in the Kirby series
Rhythm Girl with a timing mechanic
Lip with a combo gimmick and puzzle-based attacks
Galacta Knight as an OP Meta Knight clone
Toon Zelda as an even slightly playable Zelda clone
Sylveon following Ivysaur's footsteps as the quadraped-fighter-with-dual-whips
King K. Rool as a heavy fighter with hard to predict projectiles & gizmos
De'Mille because I completely forgot he existed until just now and fotgot about his Gimmicka and remembered how cool it would be to have someone with action commands to effect his attacks

 

[Enderwoman]

That would be more damaging to the Pokemon imo, as Pokemon should only learn 4 moves in the games, not to mention grabs would be very irritating to come up with

They should take it a step further than that. The Pokemon should only be allowed to attack until after the other players have attacked them.

I except them to showcase the elements that make Pokemon the unique experience it is, not a hodge podge of random and popular monsters. These are things I've said in several of my posts, which all build on one another when they are posted in succession.

How else do you expect them to pick a playable character from a series with 700+ candidates where most of them could be considered equally important? I'd say popularity is a pretty good deciding factor when it comes to Pokemon.

I've expressed explicitly and repeated a number of facts, including how much 'naming a move after a Pokemon move,' makes it nothing of the actual franchise.

I want to see the essence of Pokemon in the game, which boils down to strategic strategy, capturing them all, and training the creatures.
However, there are a number of other aspects that make it unique: The items, the breeding, the multiple kinds of battle... not to mention that these are all from the main games, not even any of the highly selling spinoffs.

This doesn't make any sense.