Data General Match-Up Discussion Thread (ask about matchups here!)

[SalsaSavant]

Okay, I need a little help here. There's this Ganondorf main who seconds D3, and because of that, he's able to counter just about everything I can do.

He knows when I'm about to throw a Gordo, and he prepares a counter before I even start. In particular, he usually jabs or wizard foots. I feel I am overall the better player on the technical level, and I have the matchup advantage. He's just...in my head.

What are some good mixups as D3? And "Safe" alternative ways to fight Ganondorf?

I should note that my general playstyle is an aggressive aerial D3 that focuses on mixing up his landing.

 

[Soul Train]

I should note that my general playstyle is an aggressive aerial D3 that focuses on mixing up his landing.

You said it right there. If you're playing an aggressive D3 - especially against Dorf - you're going to get clobbered. D3 just doesn't have the safe offense that other characters have, and Dorf is mean at punishment. Especially if the player's "in your head" as you put it - you're getting read hard and going to be beat no matter who they/you play.

But the good news is - you have absolutely no reason to play offensive here. Ganondorf is one of our best matchups...if you play a reactionary D3. We are faster, have longer range, better recovery, and a fantastic projectile. Dorf can't punish our Bair, and barely has decent followups out of shield. So don't play his game; Dorf simply has to approach you - and you can hard punish all of his options.

With Gordos: aside from Bowser, Dorf is the best character for us to Gordo abuse. He has to commit to everything, and D3 loves that here. You should -very- rarely throw a FGordo straight at him, and be sure to never do so at that max Wizard Foot range (then he can react to you). Mix up your Gordo throws - throw from the air while approaching, then back out again. Throw a DGordo after he's used to the FGordo flying straight at him, and watch him whiffed Jab/Nair/Fsmash. You really should never lose the reflect war...he's slow and it's easy to see his reflects coming. Very easy to time your Nair/Dtilt in response. If you don't have time to do that...you're too close/doing it wrong.

On ground, stay just at the edge of his Wizard Foot/Choke range, where you can react to whatever he does. And when he makes a mistake - we combo Dorf for days. I've gotten five Uair cancels against him before, his weight and slowness is so great for D3.
In air, he can't do anything to you. Try to bait out a Usmash anti-air from him, and destroy.

Ftilt destroys all of his ground approaches, Gordo forces his movement, and our aerial mobility ensures we can stay outside his range all day. Furthermore, D3 is a master of annoyance and provocation. Own this match.

I would draw up a big threat range comparison like usual...but my hard drive crashed and I lost a lot. Working on that ;_;

 

[AlexKO]

Okay, I need a little help here. There's this Ganondorf main who seconds D3, and because of that, he's able to counter just about everything I can do.

He knows when I'm about to throw a Gordo, and he prepares a counter before I even start. In particular, he usually jabs or wizard foots. I feel I am overall the better player on the technical level, and I have the matchup advantage. He's just...in my head.

What are some good mixups as D3? And "Safe" alternative ways to fight Ganondorf?

I should note that my general playstyle is an aggressive aerial D3 that focuses on mixing up his landing.

I agree with a lot of what the above poster said. You should definitely play very passively against Dorf, gotta not play aggressive here. Camp him and spam gordos/Ftilt. He's big, the slowest character in the game and can't do anything to DDD at a distance. There's no reason to play aggressively here, even if that's your preferred playstyle.

As above said, stay outside his choke range. Spam gordos and Fltilt to keep him away, punish with a grab --> dthrow combo when he makes a mistake or gets too aggressive.

But be VERY careful against Gannon. Get grabs for Dthrow combos when you can, but don't take any chances. Keep your distance. He will punish your mistakes harder than any other character...he hits like a truck and can kill DDD much earlier than other characters. Don't use laggy moves, no reason to take any big risks. Just pick away at him with Ftilt and gordos. Also be cautious when near the edge, his suicide move kills you first.

Be prepared for a long fight. Gannon is super nerve racking to play because if you make just one or two mistakes you can lose a whole stock. But if you keep picking away at a safe distance, DDD clearly has a big advantage overall.

 

[AlexKO]

So, for the new matchup we've all been waiting for!

I don't have near enough experience with him to tell yet. But in my 20 or so matches against Mewtwo I've had the hardest time getting in on him. Maybe it's just me not knowing his moveset, but I've had problems being camped. Matchup feels pretty even to me at the moment, perhaps even slightly in Mewtwo's favor but that'll probably change as I get more experience with the matchup.

 

[Sweet™]

Got third at a pretty good sized tournament over the weekend. Got double elim'd by Mario (2nd place). Lmao.

It's really hard to do anything if the Mario is willing to sit back and play the fireball game. Since almost all of our moves take a little while to start up, he can just shield grab a good number of them and then we eat a billion percent.

I firmly believe DDD's good. We just need to develop more frame traps.

Also random complaint about how much I hate being able to neutral air with C-Stick. I never do it on purpose.

 

[manueluno]

Congrats dude.

As for the shield, you can try an uptilted gordo in the shield's face so that the rebound will cover you (actually, I have never tried it... I guess it could work). And inhale is another option for shield grabbers while coming from the air.

I feel your pain about the c-stick shenanigans.

 

[nannerham]

ugh i hate fighting sheik needles are obnoxious any tips for making this horrible MU any easier?

 

[Soul Train]

ugh i hate fighting sheik needles are obnoxious any tips for making this horrible MU any easier?

Some great analysis of the Sheik matchup was already done here, which all still applies post-patch, as they really didn't change too much about her.

 

[Girthquake]

I really need help with the Falcon match up. Seems like it doesn't matter what I do or how I play the superior frame data and 100 mile grab is just too much. Up air comes out frame 6 covers in front of behind and above him which between that and nair gives him literally everything he needs to reflect gordos without even thinking about it. Even if he doesn't power shield any of my hits his dash grab is frame 9 and he just closes the distance with dash grab not even DACG

I feel like Helen Keller could win this match up. Anyone have any advice?

 

[Soul Train]

I really need help with the Falcon match up. Seems like it doesn't matter what I do or how I play the superior frame data and 100 mile grab is just too much. Up air comes out frame 6 covers in front of behind and above him which between that and nair gives him literally everything he needs to reflect gordos without even thinking about it. Even if he doesn't power shield any of my hits his dash grab is frame 9 and he just closes the distance with dash grab not even DACG

I feel like Helen Keller could win this match up. Anyone have any advice?

@ Jdawg26 posted some great thoughts here actually in response to a matchup against a great falcon. In short: it's not easy. Falcon can punish everything we do, but if you get him offstage you're golden. He who has the more patient, reactionary playstyle wins this one.

 

[Girthquake]

@ Jdawg26 posted some great thoughts here actually in response to a matchup against a great falcon. In short: it's not easy. Falcon can punish everything we do, but if you get him offstage you're golden. He who has the more patient, reactionary playstyle wins this one.

Awesome. I appreciate ignoring my salty rage. I've been really pissed off the past couple days and a competent Falcon set me off. Definitely useful information thank you

 

[Mrawesome48]

Yeah so i posted about not being able to knock back any of the gordos. Well im still unable to knock them back at him. If i attack them i still get hit. I'm pretty salty at the moment cause im tired of losing every single match cause i cant knock back the gordos

 

[manueluno]

If your attack's damage is less than 2 percent, the gordo will prevail and hit. If you are not timing it right, you just need practice.

Which character are you using?

 

[AlexKO]

Yeah so i posted about not being able to knock back any of the gordos. Well im still unable to knock them back at him. If i attack them i still get hit. I'm pretty salty at the moment cause im tired of losing every single match cause i cant knock back the gordos

Just my 2 cents, but being overly focused on hitting them back is what I want my opponents to do. I'd suggest you not try and hit every single one back. In my opinion you should be avoiding or shielding most and only hitting back when you're in a good position to do it. The main point of gordos is to distract you...and if you're trying to hit them back all the time you may be letting the opponent succeed.

 

[Jatayu]

Yeah so i posted about not being able to knock back any of the gordos. Well im still unable to knock them back at him. If i attack them i still get hit. I'm pretty salty at the moment cause im tired of losing every single match cause i cant knock back the gordos

I'm going to assume Peach and Rosalina are your mains and offer some moves.
Peach's vegetables and the peach bomber are excellent moves when dealing with gordos. Nair can also be useful.
Rosalina 's gravitational pull can get rid of gordos and star bits can easily reflect gordos back. I also found success using short hop fair.
In general, any projectile or long-lasting moves that do more than 2% is your safest bet if you want to reflect gordos, but just shielding them is always a viable option.

Hope I'm not giving you terrible advice.

 

[shrooby]

Yeah so i posted about not being able to knock back any of the gordos. Well im still unable to knock them back at him. If i attack them i still get hit. I'm pretty salty at the moment cause im tired of losing every single match cause i cant knock back the gordos

If you're playing online it can really mess up reflecting with character slowing attacks and no disjoints.

But, yeah, you shouldn't want to hit every single one back anyway, so it's not as huge a deal as you think it is. Don't worry about it.

As someone who uses Rosalina as a secondary, I find close range Gordos to be a nuisance. Rosalina doesn't have the best kit for hitting Gordos and not getting punished for it.

 

[shrooby]

ok so I just realized that I had the date wrong in the Official Match-up Discussion title wrong for almost a whole month so now I feel stupid.
Why did nobody tell me?

So I'm-a start it back up soon, but I wanted to get an idea from ya'll if you guys think we should rerate Diddy and Sheik. Diddy I'd say has more emphasis between the two, but I figured I'd ask about Sheik too.


Also I'll be changing the ratings a bit to match how it worked in the Brawl days.
Right now it uses 50:50, 60:40 and 70:30, but, like I said, I'm going to change it to how the Brawl match-up project had their ratios set up. Or at least the ratio equivalents of their point system...

50:50
55:45
65:35
70:30

It's the same logic and interpretation as before (50:50 being even, 55:45 being slight advantage, 70:30 being basically unwinnable), but with the numbers changed slightly to better reflect the past.


One last thing is that I'll also be making each session only four days instead of a whole week. Not any shorter than that since there does still need to be time for people to analyze, discuss and practice the match-up if they need to, but a whole week was definitely too long.

 

[Icarus Nocturne]

Okay. So lately Sonic's been throwing off my game lately.

It's just that playing with that hedgehog is so dang infuriating. It seems like he control's the speed of the match and I just have to wait and until he screws up.
I often underestimate how quick his spin dashes are and while not as good as mine, Sonic's B-air is nothing to sneeze at.
I've been winning by the skin of my teeth these last few games and I've had it.

I hate that hedgehog! Is there a way to make this match up smoother?

 

[TheGoolick]

A few defense questions for the Sheik matchup:

-How should I be DIing fair and ftilt chains? and
-How can I get out of fthrow -> bouncing fish when I'm at high percents?

 

[axelalexzander]

Okay. So lately Sonic's been throwing off my game lately.

It's just that playing with that hedgehog is so dang infuriating. It seems like he control's the speed of the match and I just have to wait and until he screws up.
I often underestimate how quick his spin dashes are and while not as good as mine, Sonic's B-air is nothing to sneeze at.
I've been winning by the skin of my teeth these last few games and I've had it.

I hate that hedgehog! Is there a way to make this match up smoother?

I don't think there's really anyway to have a "smooth" match against a good Sonic. It's a bad matchup for sure, one of D3's worst. I've found that practicing a lot against good sonic mains really helps. Ftilt is really important in this matchup IMO, timing it correctly is the best defense against spin ground spin dashes because of the lingering hitbox. Along with good shielding.

He's really hard to grab because he's so fast. You have to make good reads to come out with the win. Laggier moves are sure to get punished....be sparring with the dash attacks, up smashes, forward smashes and watch your landing lag on any fairs because any lag you have will be punished.

But overall I think the key to winning against a Sonic is learning the player, knowing his tendencies. It's such a read intensive matchup since he can completely dictate the pace. Good reads is a must here because he can camp DDD by doing spindash combos and then retreating...then rinse/repeat. I think you're completely right, in this matchup DDD is forced to wait for a mistake and then capitalize. Sonic has absolute control of the match since he can easily escape DDD's approach. Luckily since he has no projectile he has to initiate at close range.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I wanted to get an idea from ya'll if you guys think we should rerate Diddy and Sheik. Diddy I'd say has more emphasis between the two, but I figured I'd ask about Sheik too.

One last thing is that I'll also be making each session only four days instead of a whole week. Not any shorter than that since there does still need to be time for people to analyze, discuss and practice the match-up if they need to, but a whole week was definitely too long.

I think Diddy definitely needs to be redone. Shiek is not necessary though IMO.

Also, while a week may be a bit long, I think 4 days is a little short. I think 5 or 6 days should do it.

 

[shrooby]

I think Diddy definitely needs to be redone. Shiek is not necessary though IMO.

Also, while a week may be a bit long, I think 4 days is a little short. I think 5 or 6 days should do it.

Four or five days is what I want to do.
But with six days it might as well just be made a full week.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Four or five days is what I want to do.
But with six days it might as well just be made a full week.

Fair enough... Five days is my final answer.

 

[SalsaSavant]

I think Diddy definitely needs to be redone. Shiek is not necessary though IMO.

Also, while a week may be a bit long, I think 4 days is a little short. I think 5 or 6 days should do it.

I have mixed feelings on re-doing Sheik.
On the one hand, it's really a small nerf overall.
On the other, I have a Sheik main friend who really annoyed me with her Bair pre-nerf.

My opinion is that we should move on, but maybe do Sheik again, but last.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

My opinion is that we should move on, but maybe do Sheik again, but last.

I think that is a really good idea... I would have never thought of that.

 

[axelalexzander]

Diddy needs redone I think. Shiek, na. I don't think that matchup has changed really at all from her nerf.

 

[Mrawesome48]

How do you approach D3 I find it difficult to touch him because im always caught in his jab

 

[SalsaSavant]

How do you approach D3 I find it difficult to touch him because im always caught in his jab

The best answer is...you don't. That's what he wants. Play patient, out of his range. Send an occasional projectile to him, avoid Gordo spam knock them back when you can (and remember he might just knock it back to you!) and just harass him from safety. When he leaves himself open, take advantage of that.

D3 wants you to be the one approaching. Don't let him. Force him to be the approacher. Oh, and remember that his air approach, thought not his best option, is still very good.

 

[redfeatherraven]

'lo. Pika here.

Would like your thoughts on the Pika matchup please.

 

[billpika]

I feel like I have to go Mario/Luigi for the D3 matchup and just spam fireballs while trying to punish bad approaches with a grab. Is this the correct approach to the matchup? It often leads to a time out, but I do win... I feel dirty for playing so safe but D3 punishes so strong...

 

[Mrawesome48]

I have a question where would i post for looking for someone to help with pivot grabs and a few other mechanics? This isn't charcter specific.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

What would you guys say is D3's worst MU?

I play Luigi and I feel like this MU is impossible. I hardly ever win and games I do win, I have to fight very very hard.

 

[Soul Train]

What would you guys say is D3's worst MU?

I play Luigi and I feel like this MU is impossible. I hardly ever win and games I do win, I have to fight very very hard.

Wait, are you saying that AS Luigi, you have problems with D3? 'Cause that's crazy. Luigi is fantastic and has a solid advantage over the King, in range, damage racking, safety, options, you name it. If you're getting destroyed there you need to go watch Boss play or something.

But even still, that's nowhere near our worst matchup. Easily, our worst is Sonic. All day. I get mad just thinking about it, and won't go into a huge breakdown. But the short is, Sonic can punish everything we do (and including Jab and Ftilt) while staying almost entirely unpunishable the whole match. It's miserable.

You might think Samus/Toon Link/Yoshi is bad too, but there's just no comparison. Projectiles aren't a big deal at higher-level play (just walk forward and powershield), and then the playing field gets better. Yoshi is the worst out of those three, but I've played some fantastic Yoshis and Sonics (Seagull's), and there's really no comparison. SAAANIC ugh

 

[Jdawg26]

What would you guys say is D3's worst MU?

I play Luigi and I feel like this MU is impossible. I hardly ever win and games I do win, I have to fight very very hard.

Easily Zss or Fox. Zss because she can easily juggle confirm into a kill at earlier % than most other characters, and fox because he can get stronger punishes from longer distances than any other character. If you whiff a Bair at 3/4ths screen, you're probably eating an upsmash or combo out of dash attack. Nothing is safe =_=

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think the key to the Sonic MU is punishing him when he overcommits.

Beyond that, I got nothing. It's a stupid, stupid MU.

Smooth Criminal

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Wait, are you saying that AS Luigi, you have problems with D3? 'Cause that's crazy. Luigi is fantastic and has a solid advantage over the King, in range, damage racking, safety, options, you name it. If you're getting destroyed there you need to go watch Boss play or something.

But even still, that's nowhere near our worst matchup. Easily, our worst is Sonic. All day. I get mad just thinking about it, and won't go into a huge breakdown. But the short is, Sonic can punish everything we do (and including Jab and Ftilt) while staying almost entirely unpunishable the whole match. It's miserable.

You might think Samus/Toon Link/Yoshi is bad too, but there's just no comparison. Projectiles aren't a big deal at higher-level play (just walk forward and powershield), and then the playing field gets better. Yoshi is the worst out of those three, but I've played some fantastic Yoshis and Sonics (Seagull's), and there's really no comparison. SAAANIC ugh

Yeah, every time I go over the MU in my head I can't see why I would be losing this MU so much. But I guess D3 is just a personal challenge for me. Fireballs do little but rack up bits of damage. If I Fireball too carelessly, I get sniped by a well-placed Gordo. I find it difficult to challenge D3. In the air, Fair outranges me plus it's disjointed. His multiple jumps always seem to catch me off guard. If I play from the ground, I run the risk of eating an aerial. I get shield grabs but often times I'm getting caught with a landing Inhale. This then causes me to respect it and I give D3 space while throwing Fireballs. I never really get in for damage. It's just an overall frustrating MU for me because I feel like he's doing nothing but floating most of the time but I still lose.

Easily Zss or Fox. Zss because she can easily juggle confirm into a kill at earlier % than most other characters, and fox because he can get stronger punishes from longer distances than any other character. If you whiff a Bair at 3/4ths screen, you're probably eating an upsmash or combo out of dash attack. Nothing is safe =_=

Funny you say Fox. He seems be covering my personal challenges well (D3 and Mega Man)

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I think the key to the Sonic MU is punishing him when he overcommits.

Beyond that, I got nothing. It's a stupid, stupid MU.

Smooth Criminal

In my experience, it's just about timing your attacks to beat out his. Sonic's priority is garbage. A well-placed jab or ftilt in some cases can stop him in the middle of all his specials. Also, Sonic has a hard time killing us, since we're so freaking fat heavy, so try and stay near the middle of the stage if you can.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

In my experience, it's just about timing your attacks to beat out his. Sonic's priority is garbage. A well-placed jab or ftilt in some cases can stop him in the middle of all his specials. Also, Sonic has a hard time killing us, since we're so freaking fat heavy, so try and stay near the middle of the stage if you can.

Except when Sonic beats us in neutral with sheer mobility and mixups, but yeah. Not to mention that Sonic approaches on his own terms.

Smooth Criminal

 

[manueluno]

Wow, we really need the match up thread to get going. I don't consider either ZSS or Sonic to be such a big problem for the King. Not easy for sure, but not his worst nightmares (after dieting of course).

On the other hand, I don't know how to get around Megaman's pellets that keep me in hitstun or Luigi's cyclone that invades my space.

For Sonic, isn't it enough to shield constantly or try to parry the spindash?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

For Sonic, isn't it enough to shield constantly or try to parry the spindash?

No because Sonic is likely crossing you up on-hit when this happens, bypassing even the fastest option you could muster by jumping through you and throwing out aerials (sometimes Up B) to cover his route. Best thing you can do in that situation is powershield the spindash, wait for the mixup, and try to punish afterwards.

It's pin the hammer on the blue rodent.

Smooth Criminal