Data General Match-Up Discussion Thread (ask about matchups here!)

[KeithTheGeek]

Ryu has a hard time landing against Dedede. He doesn't have THAT many safe landing options, and we can stuff out the FA with uair. On the ground, we sorta have the hadouken/shakunetsu hadouken to worry about, but the former is pretty easy to stuff out.

The main thing I would be worried about is Ryu's combo potential, and hit confirms into kill moves like the shoryuken. He can be tricky with FADC, but once you get a feel for how the Ryu uses his FA you *should* be able to predict where he's going with it and beat it out. I've actually found gordo to be a good tool for this when I played chillindude.

IDK, to me the match-up felt like it may have been in D3's favor, but the conditions we were playing in weren't exactly optimal and he was the only "high level" Ryu I've played so far. Even at this point in time I don't see it going worse than 55:45 , but IMO it's not bad at all.

 

[Man of shame]

What are your guys thoughts on the olimar match up.

does anyone know if we can swallow the pikmin because I fell like that can give us a alight advantage (such as eating the purple ones to prevent early kills from olimar because now he has to wait until he plucks out a purple one again)or maybe it doesn't .

 

[Jatayu]

I don't think he can, neither can kirby. Beside the endlag would leave us open to a pretty hefty punish. Wario can eat them, though.

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

We can only eat the Purple ones, the others will treat you like a jungle gym. But, yeah, the end lag is terrible, you can't space it either because of how little range the Purples have, and you don't seem to be able to eat them while detached from Olimar/ just walking around, they're only edible mid flight.

 

[Man of shame]

We can only eat the Purple ones, the others will treat you like a jungle gym. But, yeah, the end lag is terrible, you can't space it either because of how little range the Purples have, and you don't seem to be able to eat them while detached from Olimar/ just walking around, they're only edible mid flight.

but still that means we can stop him from getting the purple one and make have to pluck more in order to get on a side note does taste test reduce end lag of eating stuff.

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

If Olimar has a Red or another Purple, we're still screwed from the swallow animation. Just tested it, taste test doesn't reduce the swallow lag, it's just a quick get-off-me option.

 

[Man of shame]

Does Dedede vortex help in this match-up I imagine it would by shredding all olimar's pikmin.

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

Tested just now. 'ahem'. HOLY CRAP THE THING OWNS PIKMIN. To be specific, Pikmin get stuck in the vortex until they die, no way of getting out. Could be useful in a lot of situations, but a good player will just jump over you and do a Dair.

edit: Pikmin can survive if the Olimar is using the custom move "Hardy Pikmin Pluck", so instead of dying the Pikmin get pushed away.

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

what your thoughts on MU I think we slight have slight advantage over him.

I personally believe D3 bops ryu hard. Hadoken and Gordo are probably the 2 laggiest projectile tosses(no charging involved) in the game. Gordos beat 2 of the 3 forms of hadoken.

Not to mention we have this giant hammer that says "no" to any way ryu wants to approach beside a possible forward air.

and our grab range is large enough to shield grab his approaches, do either normal grab combo stuff or throw him away.

If that ryu does a hadoken anywhere near close to you, you can walk up, power shield it and hit him with a smash or dash attack.

IF THERE IS ONE MATCH UP WE DEFINITELY WIN IN THIS GAME. IT IS THIS ONE.

edit 1: the only move ryu has that gives me trouble is forward air cus that move's priority is insane

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

We certainly have some decent tools for challenging Ryu's Focus Attacks. Aside from grabs (it's the universal answer all characters have) and simply airdodging/spotdodging/rolling/jumping out of the way, we have:

• Jab string
• FTilt
• UAir
• DTilt (if you can get away from him, this COULD work, but if you can't, disregard this)
• Fastfall NAir (make sure to follow it up with another attack upon landing if you want to fully punish his FA)
• Armored Jet Hammer (untested. If this loses to his FA, then disregard this too)
• Upclose Gordo Tosses
• Up 1 (When landing)
• All 3 Neutral B moves to directly stuff his FA, due to their multiple hits (DTilt, NAir, & Down 2 only hit once, hence my hesitation in including them, and in Inhale/Taste Test's case, they're command grabs).

As for Custom Loadouts, perhaps x112 or x212 will be the decks of choice? Not sure if Bouncing Gordos will be worth taking to this MU...

 

[Jatayu]

Generally Taste Test would be the best neutral B thanks to it's faster end lag, extra damage, and it still functions as a command grab. Against Ryu, I personally recommend default gordo, but bouncing allows for easier gordo sticking to the ledge forcing Ryu to recover high and some other minor benefits. And keep in mind that Ryu can dash cancel out of FA at anytime.

Splooshi, why do you say x212? Is there some amazing technique for Topspin gordo that you're hiding from us?

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

I'm considering Topspin, due to:

Hadoken and Gordo are probably the 2 laggiest projectile tosses(no charging involved) in the game. Gordos beat 2 of the 3 forms of hadoken.

Topspin's horizontal range exceeds default's, and Ryu's vertical jumping range is not too high, nor is his overall horizontal speed all that great, which allows Topspin to pressure him. I don't believe Ryu can quickly leave out a full-circle active hitbox too well, aside from maybe Hurricane Kicks, Shoryukens, NAir & FAir, so he'll have some difficulty reflecting Topspin once it's rocketing forward.

With proper, yet risky timing, Side 2's hammer swing can clear out a (non-Red?) Hadouken and allow the Gordo to rocket towards Ryu for the punish. Actually getting that timing is hard, due to Side 2's startup being worse than Side 1's.

Nice to read that Bouncing Gordos have a use for us in this MU. It might actually be a better move to use here than Topspin. :o

FADCs are definitely a thing with him to aid his (air) horizontal movement, but if we can make use of my provided list to challenge his FAs, we can make him nervous about using FADCs. Topspin upclose can also challenge FAs.

 

[Man of shame]

can anyone test to see if absorbing vortex destroys hadokens.

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

Vortex is extremely picky about what it hits, for example, it takes out Duck Hunt's projectiles no problem, but projectiles from Villager, Megaman, and Pikachu it doesn't do squat against. If you want to tank projectiles, use Armoured Jet Hammer. I feel Vortex is more for Triple D to act like Bowser or Charizard with their flame breath.

 

[Texfone]

I apparantly put this in the wrong thread, so here it is again

Hey guys I'd like some help with how to deal with Ike, my friend recently started playing as him and my goodness, I hate all of Ike's specials ( in the way of having to deal with them ). Giving that he can hold that side special for however long he wants so there's really no way to predict when he'll use it.

And, for me, the up special is very terrible for a dedede like me because i go for an aerial approach usually and this move does not help. Plus I can't punish the move over half the time because he throws his sword up first and you can't hit his sword so you're just going to have to get rekt by the rest of the move so by that time, you might as well just wait for the move to finish. Even when he recovers and you are trying to edge guard him, his sword hits you in the face and makes you fly back so you can't and then he just goes into his side special when he gets up off the ledge.

And his down special gets me a lot, that counter is not good for dedede one bit.

So can I please have some feedback on how to defeat Ike?

 

[Jatayu]

@ shrooby , I think wario and meta knight should be moved up past the Pits. They shouldn't be behind the super heavies.
As a reference, here's our current list for match-ups to cover:

My argument is basically that they're high tier now and not the "sleeper threats" they were four months ago.

I could say things like wario's ability to charge waft during neutral forces us to approach, MK's excellent punish game can be used to easily exploit our poor frame data, MK's multiple jumps and teleport allows him to land with ease and avoid our gordo traps, and other fun facts. But anyway, my point is that we need match-up info for these two more than we do Ganondorf.

Also, where do the DLC characters fall into this?

 

[shrooby]

@ shrooby , I think wario and meta knight should be moved up past the Pits. They shouldn't be behind the super heavies.
As a reference, here's our current list for match-ups to cover:

My argument is basically that they're high tier now and not the "sleeper threats" they were four months ago.

I could say things like wario's ability to charge waft during neutral forces us to approach, MK's excellent punish game can be used to easily exploit our poor frame data, MK's multiple jumps and teleport allows him to land with ease and avoid our gordo traps, and other fun facts. But anyway, my point is that we need match-up info for these two more than we do Ganondorf.

Also, where do the DLC characters fall into this?

I actually 100% agree.
Yeah, that list is really outdated haha. I figured it'd happen that's why it didn't want to make it set-in-stone.
If more people want it so, then it'll be so.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

We don't see very many Robins, so I think that match-up is a bit less important to get to. I would move Greninja up a spot, and I think with the recent buffs Falco and Ike are somewhat more relevant to talk about. At least, probably more than Toon Link and Samus, even if I would think those two would be harder match-ups.

 

[shrooby]

We don't see very many Robins, so I think that match-up is a bit less important to get to. I would move Greninja up a spot, and I think with the recent buffs Falco and Ike are somewhat more relevant to talk about. At least, probably more than Toon Link and Samus, even if I would think those two would be harder match-ups.

Robin's already set in stone. Can't change it.
Though, personally, yeah, I would've moved Robin down in hindsight. (The woes of going by an arbitrary list made months ago lmao) There aren't many of them and other than Arcfire being one of the most inconvenient projectiles for Dedede the MU isn't that bad.
But, oh well. It's only five days, look at it that way lol

I think Ike would be worth moving up as well. It's an MU that I feel you can't just go into winging it. At least based on my experience with a buddy of mine who's the best Ike in my region. (And one of the best Ikes in general imo)


Also @ Jatayu I completely skipped over your other question haha sorry.
The DLC characters will be discussed once we go through the character again. (Round 2, so to speak.) IE once we finish the first go-around, ending with the Dedede ditto MU.
They're gonna need time for their metas to develop anyway. Talking about any of them soonish (besides Mewtwo probably since he's been out longer) wouldn't really be worth much since I'm sure they would still be developing when we got to them. So most of what we talk about would end up outdated.
Happened with characters we've already talked about, probably. Like, what the heck was running through our heads when we talked about Sheik? That MU is bad.


Surprised nobody's said anything about Game&Watch. He's behind Zelda like what the heck was I thinking at the time?

 

[betaclay]

I seem to have a lot of problems with Jigglypuff. If you can land a hit, she's easy to kill but landing them is a problem. Anyone else think similarly?

 

[slavoslav]

I seem to have a lot of problems with Jigglypuff. If you can land a hit, she's easy to kill but landing them is a problem. Anyone else think similarly?

Not at all actually.

I think it's one of Dedede's very rare positive MUs.

 

[Deleted member]

What is the Dedede vs. Pit MU like? I have a friend who mains Pit/Pittoo, and I always have a hard time fighting him and other Pits because his smashes and tilts are so fast. Doesn't help his up smash easily catches D3.

 

[MioTinto]

I don't really have that many issues with facing Sheik. Our gordos go right through her needles, and our impossibly good survivability gives her even more trouble with finishing off the opponent than usual.
Are you guys doing well against Sheik as well, or am I just fighting crap Sheiks?

 

[betaclay]

oops, I was an idiot back then

 

[Soul Train]

I agree. I think D3 has an equal, if not positive matchup on Sheik. His floatiness allows you to get out of a lot of her usual strings, she has no way of dealing with needles that we aren't used to, and a major Sheik problem is killing while a major Dedede strength is living.

I think D3's worst matchup is Villager

You haven't played a real Sheik yet is you think it's anywhere near a positive matchup for D3. There's a reason people have yet to win anything with him.

Villager is bad, but not impossible with good shielding. ZSS on the other hand? That is a bad matchup.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

How do you guys handle ? I went to a tournament yesterday, and I just didn't know what do against him, and ended up getting knocked out by him. I heard the best thing to do is just not get up close, but I don't know, nothing I did was working.

Anyone with help?

 

[Cook]

Be patient. And gimp him.

 

[Soul Train]

How do you guys handle ? I went to a tournament yesterday, and I just didn't know what do against him, and ended up getting knocked out by him. I heard the best thing to do is just not get up close, but I don't know, nothing I did was working.

Anyone with help?

I've gotten bopped by some good dorfs, and the reason is always the same: the players have me read hard. Dorf really should only win when you're being predictable, not punishing, and/or getting read hard. My bet is, if you kept playing, you would've adapted/learned his BS and started wrecking him.

For once D3 outranges AND outspaces somebody here. Really, you have no reason to ever approach him. D3 is actually faster, and can mount a safe offense. Don't get scared and airdodge into dumb stuff. Don't try to punish his Usmash, it's pretty safe. Dorf has no answer to retreating SH Bairs. His pokes are Dtilt, Ftilt, and Jab - all beaten by Ftilt/Jab handily. You can sit just outside Ftilt range and punish anything he does on reaction - both Wizard Kick and Flame Choke leave him hugely open - nothing else he has is fast enough to scare you. Gordo traps destroy him. He's super easy to gimp. ...yeah.

Any chance of vids?

 

[betaclay]

You haven't played a real Sheik yet is you think it's anywhere near a positive matchup for D3. There's a reason people have yet to win anything with him.

Villager is bad, but not impossible with good shielding. ZSS on the other hand? That is a bad matchup.

Not sure I agree. I played and beat one of the best MN player's Sheik with Dedede. I think it's not a bad matchup at all

 

[Girthquake]

Not sure I agree. I played and beat one of the best MN player's Sheik with Dedede. I think it's not a bad matchup at all

The only true positive thing in the match up is the fact that DDD lives long and Sheik lacks a kill option that isn't read based.

Every other part is a negative. What you guys don't understand about needles and the Gordo is that sure okay Gordo will eat needles if they stand there charging up the needles only to toss them once the Gordo is out thinking that they will reflect it. Most Sheiks will instantly adapt to this and often interrupt Gordo Toss with a single needle or a small few. We still lose to needle camping and because of how long it takes Gordo to come out it's not a reliable solution to that.

We get combo'd to oblivion and really I don't see how you can view this is even remotely positive. Sure, there are worse match ups. I'd rather face a Sheik than a Sonic, but Sheik is not and will never be a good match up for DDD.

 

[atomicblast360]

I need some info on Dedede vs. Toon Link, I always get overwhelmed by his projectiles and Jump cancel bomb tosses, and find him especially difficult to deal with on platform stages. What is the best way to play this MU? I couldn't find any videos on it.

 

[MioTinto]

Tink's dair has a lot of landing lag, try baiting him into one. Tink poses a similar threat to us as Link does, so if you can help it, don't take him to FD. I think jab/ftilt beats arrows, and our uair beats his dair. Tink's also quite gimpable, so take advantage of that.

 

[shrooby]

So I noticed Sheik talk and let me lay some things down on you

There are two ways to play Sheik in this MU
There is the aggro way (which is what you'll usually see Sheiks play if you watch Sheiks) and there's needle-camping Sheiks.
Sheik is versatile enough to play both of these styles, but it comes down to player style which one is employed more.
Here's the thing: the MU becomes completely different depending on which kind of Sheik you play.
In this MU, the most optimal way to play Sheik is to needle-camp. There's not much DDD can do about needle camping. It becomes 65:35 when the Sheik plays this way in my opinion.
Before you say "Gordo goes through needles," no, needle camping does not mean throwing needles randomly. Needle camping means punishing any sort of commitment you make by throwing needles at your face from afar. If you pull out a Gordo, Sheik will hit you with needles as the animation's going and DDD will just drop the gordo.
DDD is too slow to be able to deal with this effectively. He can't jump, because needles will punish his landing when he comes down eventually.
You can try to do the traditional walk forward and shield, but this is VERY hard to do against needles as they're very hard to just straight-up react to.

Non-needle camping Sheik is 60:40 in my honest opinion.
Sheik does have reliable-ish ways of KOing DDD, by the way. (Stage dependent.) Because fthrow > Bouncing Fish works regardless of DI until ridiculous percents (around 130-150% depending on Sheik's rage). After this, it becomes a 50-50 where you can airdodge or not airdodge.
Granted, since Bouncing Fish is probably stale at this point, it still probably won't kill on the ledge of most stages at this stage unless you DI out at high percents. (So Sheik hits you with Bouncing Fish closer to the blastline).
BF it's not an issue. (I recommend picking BF in this MU btw)
Bright side is that DDD basically doesn't have to worry about Sheik's dthrow 50-50 because LOL Sheik's upair isn't KOing DDD until stupid-high percents. On the main stage of Battlefield, not until the 50-50 stops working. Vanish will KO, but if they go for upair and it hits, it really doesn't matter.
However, DDD's slow airspeed makes offstage fully-charged needles > Bouncing Fish setups very threatening. It requires mixing up recovery well (and generally going pretty low) so Sheik can't set this up easily.

But, in the end, yes, DDD has survivability. I've survived well above 150% against K9's Sheik in bracket.
But lord help you if you fight a Sheik who's willing to lame you out.

My experience of this MU comes from hours of friendlies with Mr R, Vinnie and VoiD. As well as other various matches in bracket with Larry Lurr, K9 and Zenyou's Sheik, all players who are PR'd in SoCal with Sheik.
Zenyou, in particular, plays the needle-camp way. He's the only Sheik I've ever switched to another character for because DDD simply CAN'T deal with needle camping easily. He simply lacks the mobility and other options to do so.

 

[shrooby]

I need some info on Dedede vs. Toon Link, I always get overwhelmed by his projectiles and Jump cancel bomb tosses, and find him especially difficult to deal with on platform stages. What is the best way to play this MU? I couldn't find any videos on it.

Here is me versus @Zan- the besss tink

http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/v/9363294

This set is very silly and Larry and VoiD offer their goober-ish commentary, but yee~
You gotta know his tricks and not get overwhelmed. I camp the air a lot because, well, you can't throw an item at a 45 degree angle.
Mix up air stalling and just walking and shielding. The latter of which I should've used more in the set.
It's from awhile ago but I believe I banned BF and FD

 

[Deleted member]

Here is me versus @Zan- the besss tink

http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/v/9363294

This set is very silly and Larry and VoiD offer their goober-ish commentary, but yee~
You gotta know his tricks and not get overwhelmed. I camp the air a lot because, well, you can't throw an item at a 45 degree angle.
Mix up air stalling and just walking and shielding. The latter of which I should've used more in the set.
It's from awhile ago but I believe I banned BF and FD

Yeah pretty much. The shroobs prob the most knowledgeable in this matchup so youre gonna wanna hit em up with the knowledge :3
How I see it, I get alot of percent on D3 but he doesnt die and esp now with the shield mechanics in play, TL has to be very cautious of landing bair and gordo. Ftilt is good spacing and take advantage of TLs bad off stage game with imo d3s really solid edgeguarding tools

 

[Axel311]

I need some info on Dedede vs. Toon Link, I always get overwhelmed by his projectiles and Jump cancel bomb tosses, and find him especially difficult to deal with on platform stages. What is the best way to play this MU? I couldn't find any videos on it.

I played a really good toon link on anther's the other day and ended up splitting games with him for the most part. One thing I took away is I need to work on catching items...same goes with the diddy matchup. Got to learn how to catch the bombs. But the toon link matchup is tough, definitely not in Dedede's favor.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

So I just looked into the DDD matchup thread for the first time in a while, and there is not a single character yet that we have the advantage over? I know that we are low tier, but guys! That seems a bit depressing! Even the other low tier matchup threads have a fair amount of winning matchups. So what characters DO we have an advantage over? There must be some!

 

[Deleted member]

We do well against Jigglypuff...

lol, that's kinda sad but that's what I can think of now

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Some of those early rankings are a bit hilarious in hindsight...we have Yoshi as only a slight disadvantage? Same deal with Sheik, lol. And I don't know about going 50-50 with Rosaluma...

As far as the characters I think Dedede beats, it's mostly other low tiers besides a few odd characters. So like Ganondorf, Marth/Lucina, Little Mac, maybe a couple of others. I want to say we do well against Wii Fit Trainer but she's such a weird character, and super rare to come across as well. And idk, probably Mii Brawler as well as long as they're restricted to default size 1111 sets.

I think Dedede did better against more characters originally, but the combination of receiving a couple of nerfs along with nearly every one else getting better has really hurt us a lot.

 

[Axel311]

So I just looked into the DDD matchup thread for the first time in a while, and there is not a single character yet that we have the advantage over? I know that we are low tier, but guys! That seems a bit depressing! Even the other low tier matchup threads have a fair amount of winning matchups. So what characters DO we have an advantage over? There must be some!

It's sad but true. If anything I think we've been too generous in certain matchups. I credit the DDD boards for being honest, unlike other character boards where they far too often rate matchups more favorably than they should be. I love DDD but the fact is he's one of the worst characters in the game right now for singles. He was at the low end of mid tier on release in my opinion, but he's been hurt massively by getting no buffs while many others have, and slid to bottom 5 (likely) as a result.

I'm no expert but personally I think he beats

and that's it. And only because DDD doesn't have to approach, they have generally bad approach options themselves, poor gordo reflect options, huge hurtboxes and/or have landing issues which lets DDD play lame and camp the hell out of them.

I think top players will know how to exploit DDD's bad frame data/mobility on most any character with pretty good frame data or a projectile and use it to turn the match in their favor. Stay just outside of ftilt range, wait for DDD to commit, and then punish. Be aware of gordo and reflect when necessary.

I don't think he beats anyone else at a top level. Anyone with a projectile or good frame data wins because they can camp DDD like crazy.

DDD is just too slow both in frame data and mobility. And on top of that has one of the biggest hurtboxes in game. Those negatives far outweigh any of his positives. To beat DDD on most any character the answer is always the same, just camp.

Not to say a lot of his matchups aren't winnable...I think he has a lot of 60:40's, a few 55:45's and maybe some 50:50's. You just generally have to be more skilled than your opponent to win with DDD.