Data General Match-Up Discussion Thread (ask about matchups here!)

[Dar4]

While I agree it's a bad matchup, comparing it to ZSS (or worse) is just unrealistic. Bayo is a new character, and we're all still learning how to punish what seem like her high-priority, safe attacks. But just like when you fight a good Dhalsim in Street Fighter, matchup experience completely shifts everything.

ZSS's "laggy grab" is often not a liability against the slow D3, and even when it is, the risk is justified by its the crazy followup potential. In contrast Bayo has terrible grab range, no throw followups, and horrendous kill power from throw. This means D3 can shield far more safely in neutral, which is huge for a character that relies on shield a lot already.

ZSS/Bayo actually have some very similar aerial attacks and landing lag on those attacks, so it's pretty equal there.

However the ground is where things really separate. Bayo is almost entirely unsafe on the ground, and very punishable with smart spacing/shielding. ZSS has a 1 frame jab, and a 6 frame ftilt. Both mostly safe and usable in mixups. In contrast, Bayo has a 9 frame jab. Nine frames. That is absolutely horrendous, second only to D3's barely worse 10-frame jab (except D3's is disjointed with far better range). Her fastest move there is Dtilt at 7 frames, which is a good combo starter but also unsafe and completely outranged by D3's Jab/Ftilt. Her SideB approach lets her get in - but unlike Sonic it's massively unsafe. With his 6-frame Dtilt, that means Dedede actually has faster ground frame data than someone else in this game for once. The fact is, Nintendo pretty blatantly balanced Bayo's strengths by making her struggle against shields, have bad ground frame data, and be stupid light. I'm not saying she's bad whatsoever - I'm saying people have yet to optimize their play against these unqiue weaknesses.

Yes Witch Time is a thing, and it's good. But it doesn't break the character, and it is baitable. One good point: one of Bayo's best killing moves is Usmash, and D3 dies the latest out of everyone in the cast off the top.

This isn't 70:30. There is seriously no comparison against characters like ZSS and Sonic in how they mathematically and practically get to harass D3 for free. It might not even be 60:40, but only time will tell.

Agreed that we have a lot to learn still with how to deal with her. But we know enough about her already to say for sure that having a huge hurtbox against her is a major disadvantage as she has some of the best (if not the best) combos in the game, and they'll be much easier for her to perform because of that. Avoiding Bayo's combo game is key to beating her, and D3 can't do that.

I respect your opinion on these boards but have you played a great Bayonetta player? Not a decent one or OK one, but someone who has seriously labbed Bayo since her release and has a good grasp on optimizing her combo game. There's a world of difference. Honestly I'm not trying to be condescending with that comment, but I also would have agreed with most of what you're saying before I played a great bayo. I also thought Bayo was weak against shield and such but she's really not because her combo starter options are mostly really safe pokes and her risk/reward for landing any combo starter is though the roof. If you get hit by any of her combo starters in neutral, you're getting juggled and best case scenario taking solid percent. At worst you're getting zero to death'd.

Dedede is probably the easiest character to witch time as well because of how slow most of his moveset comes out.

As a Dedede co-main I'd have to say this looks like it might rival ZSS for Dedede's worst matchup. I will admit that I need more experience to learn optimal counterplay but it looks really bad from my perspective right now. I don't see it getting better than 70:30 honestly. Honestly I do think may be worse than ZSS/Sonic. I think Bayo can harass D3 even better because of her insanely favorable level of risk/reward on her combo starters. She can stay just outside D3's ftilt range, wait for D3 to commit to something, and throw out safe combo starters.

 

[Dededeity]

That's not how we play this game. You take what you're given, find ways around the hard parts, and do your best with what you have. If you're not going to be part of the solution, don't add to the negativity.



While I agree it's a bad matchup, comparing it to ZSS (or worse) is just unrealistic. Bayo is a new character, and we're all still learning how to punish what seem like her high-priority, safe attacks. But just like when you fight a good Dhalsim in Street Fighter, matchup experience completely shifts everything.

ZSS's "laggy grab" is often not a liability against the slow D3, and even when it is, the risk is justified by its the crazy followup potential. In contrast Bayo has terrible grab range, no throw followups, and horrendous kill power from throw. This means D3 can shield far more safely in neutral, which is huge for a character that relies on shield a lot already.

ZSS/Bayo actually have some very similar aerial attacks and landing lag on those attacks, so it's pretty equal there.

However the ground is where things really separate. Bayo is almost entirely unsafe on the ground, and very punishable with smart spacing/shielding. ZSS has a 1 frame jab, and a 6 frame ftilt. Both mostly safe and usable in mixups. In contrast, Bayo has a 9 frame jab. Nine frames. That is absolutely horrendous, second only to D3's barely worse 10-frame jab (except D3's is disjointed with far better range). Her fastest move there is Dtilt at 7 frames, which is a good combo starter but also unsafe and completely outranged by D3's Jab/Ftilt. Her SideB approach lets her get in - but unlike Sonic it's massively unsafe. With his 6-frame Dtilt, that means Dedede actually has faster ground frame data than someone else in this game for once. The fact is, Nintendo pretty blatantly balanced Bayo's strengths by making her struggle against shields, have bad ground frame data, and be stupid light. I'm not saying she's bad whatsoever - I'm saying people have yet to optimize their play against these unqiue weaknesses.

Yes Witch Time is a thing, and it's good. But it doesn't break the character, and it is baitable. One good point: one of Bayo's best killing moves is Usmash, and D3 dies the latest out of everyone in the cast off the top.

This isn't 70:30. There is seriously no comparison against characters like ZSS and Sonic in how they mathematically and practically get to harass D3 for free. It might not even be 60:40, but only time will tell.

For someone whose motto is "just laugh" you seem to have a hard time taking a joke. -_-

 

[Krubby]

The thing about Bayo is that she doesn't have any way to force Dedede to approach. His shield and multiple jumps and gordos are enough that she can't just shoot at us until we reach her. Also, the way her hitboxes work mean that she has no safe way of repeatedly knocking back gordos at us meaning we can harass her until she approaches us. If we can prevent her from doing that we have a chance against her. I don't think it's fair to compare our matchup against her to be on the same level of unwinnability as ZSS, Cloud and Sonic. It's just another high tier that's better than us and we have to play extra hard to win.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing King Dedede again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/413572/

 

[abx]

I have a question about that Rosaluma MU anyway. Lots of D3 mains here consider it somewhat neutral or even slightly in the king's favour. What I don't get is the following: Starbits nullify any ground approach and block out Gordos consistently. King D can't simply outrange those starbits (or maybe with super precise spacing) and I don't see much room for punishing upon Starbits.
Approaching from the air doesn't seem to be a valid alternative. Rosa's disjoints eat King D alive, rendering Nair useless. And Rosaluma is mobile enough to not get hit by Bairs.

Simply put I have no idea how to overcome Luma when facing a Rosaluma player who doesn't throw Luma around like it's nothing. Once Rosaluma decides to play defensively against King D, I'm completely helpless.

 

[Soul Train]

I have a question about that Rosaluma MU anyway. Lots of D3 mains here consider it somewhat neutral or even slightly in the king's favour. What I don't get is the following: Starbits nullify any ground approach and block out Gordos consistently. King D can't simply outrange those starbits (or maybe with super precise spacing) and I don't see much room for punishing upon Starbits.
Approaching from the air doesn't seem to be a valid alternative. Rosa's disjoints eat King D alive, rendering Nair useless. And Rosaluma is mobile enough to not get hit by Bairs.

Simply put I have no idea how to overcome Luma when facing a Rosaluma player who doesn't throw Luma around like it's nothing. Once Rosaluma decides to play defensively against King D, I'm completely helpless.

I don't have time for a deeper analysis right now, but you're right on the dot. No one that says Rosaluma is good for D3 accurately knows either character. Rosa is IMMENSELY safer, with her overall risk/reward balance being significantly in her favor. While few Rosas know how to play against D3, at a high level she wrecks him. Surprise surprise.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

What do you guys think about the Bowser MU now? I know that a lot of people say that it is one of the few MUs that Dedede wins, but I've been having a lot of trouble with it recently. I honestly fear playing a Bowser in tourney more than I fear playing a bunch of other characters that we go even with or slightly lose to! Do any of you guys feel the same way?

I feel like Bowser just has the tools to beat us now. His up B out of shield can punish basically anything we do pretty well, and do good damage and knockback. He can knock back gordos pretty well with his Fair or Nair, and his Bow Wow connects on us for a long time, and deals a lot of damage if he gets a grab. Also he has a lot less trouble killing us than we have killing him. His throws actually can kill at reasonable percents, most of his tilts have killing power, and he is so friggin heavy that he can often reach like 200% versus DDD, which gives him a LOT of rage. Also his command grab can kill early with platforms.

We still do retain some advantages though, like we can edgeguard him well, we can outrange him, we can juggle him, we don't get camped out, and we can use gordos pretty well in this matchup, but I am having a lot of trouble dealing with Bowsers recently.

 

[Deleted member]

What do you guys think about the Bowser MU now? I know that a lot of people say that it is one of the few MUs that Dedede wins, but I've been having a lot of trouble with it recently. I honestly fear playing a Bowser in tourney more than I fear playing a bunch of other characters that we go even with or slightly lose to! Do any of you guys feel the same way?

I feel like Bowser just has the tools to beat us now. His up B out of shield can punish basically anything we do pretty well, and do good damage and knockback. He can knock back gordos pretty well with his Fair or Nair, and his Bow Wow connects on us for a long time, and deals a lot of damage if he gets a grab. Also he has a lot less trouble killing us than we have killing him. His throws actually can kill at reasonable percents, most of his tilts have killing power, and he is so friggin heavy that he can often reach like 200% versus DDD, which gives him a LOT of rage. Also his command grab can kill early with platforms.

We still do retain some advantages though, like we can edgeguard him well, we can outrange him, we can juggle him, we don't get camped out, and we can use gordos pretty well in this matchup, but I am having a lot of trouble dealing with Bowsers recently.

We definitely still win the matchup. Bowser can't do much vs our aerials, and moves like ftilt and utilt keep him at bay. Just don't let Bowser overwhelm you or gain the advantage, and make careful use of Gordos.

 

[Soul Train]

What do you guys think about the Bowser MU now? I know that a lot of people say that it is one of the few MUs that Dedede wins, but I've been having a lot of trouble with it recently. I honestly fear playing a Bowser in tourney more than I fear playing a bunch of other characters that we go even with or slightly lose to! Do any of you guys feel the same way?

I feel like Bowser just has the tools to beat us now. His up B out of shield can punish basically anything we do pretty well, and do good damage and knockback. He can knock back gordos pretty well with his Fair or Nair, and his Bow Wow connects on us for a long time, and deals a lot of damage if he gets a grab. Also he has a lot less trouble killing us than we have killing him. His throws actually can kill at reasonable percents, most of his tilts have killing power, and he is so friggin heavy that he can often reach like 200% versus DDD, which gives him a LOT of rage. Also his command grab can kill early with platforms.

We still do retain some advantages though, like we can edgeguard him well, we can outrange him, we can juggle him, we don't get camped out, and we can use gordos pretty well in this matchup, but I am having a lot of trouble dealing with Bowsers recently.

With Gordos - it's never about how "easy" it is for others to reflect them back. It's about how much the opponent has to invest in the reflection. ZSS blinks and Gordo flies back at our face. But Bowser has to invest a ton of time reflecting anything, as all of his moves have significant startup/endlag. This is one of the reasons why this is a good matchup - because finally, the opponent has to invest just as much if not more then D3 with Gordo battles. Add the fact that Bowser has the biggest hitbox in the cast, and it's just Gordo bait/trap/snipe heaven (note I did NOT say spam, never spam Gordo...use it smartly).

Otherwise, literally every one of D3's moves not called Nair outspaces Bowser hard. Jab 1->2 is safe on his shield at max range. Ftilt is as well. You can SH Bair, then jump away for a safe and free chance at damage/kill. His UpB is NOT a great punish against D3 if you're spacing right. Get a hold of center, force him to approach with Gordos, and punish whatever he does. If Bowser gets in and grabs you, note what he did and punish it next time (he ran in + shield, grab it next time). And then Bowser should never be able to punish your landing; getting back to stage is one thing D3 does incredibly well.

 

[SalsaSavant]

So, at a recent tourney, a ton of Ryu mains wanted to play me to "learn the matchup." That struck me as kinda random, is there something about this matchup that I'm missing? Did something shift to make Ryus interested in the deeds?

 

[abx]

Making an educated guess, Ryu has somewhat low mobility on ground and poor approach options in the air, His range is short and his only projectile is hardly applying pressure. Dedede can actually play out his enormous range. I'm not so sure about the commitment required from Ryu to reflect Gordos.
I wouldn't say that this MU is necessarily in King D's favour, but compared with other high tiers it's less aggravating, maybe close to be evenish. Ryu still has his combo game which works incredibly well ong Dedede. In any case Ryu players need to work around King D's range and in fact they need to do that against any zoner as Ryus want to get close in order to wreck havoc.

 

[williamsga555]

Haven't got much experience in the matchup, but almost everyone I've talked to that has played it thinks it's close to even. Apparently it's our best high/top tier matchup, along with Rosa.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I think the Ryu MU is our best top tier matchup. I honestly think it is even. I have beaten the best Ryu in SoCal, so I have a 100 percent win rate versus Ryus in tourney.

Okay, fine, I played one game against NCJacobT, who is power ranked and plays Ryu alongside Pikachu and Bayonetta, and I 2-stocked him in that one game in tourney, and I have never played another Ryu since, so with my very limited knowledge of the MU, I say it's a perfect 50/50.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I think Ryu technically has the advantage against us by virtue of not having garbage frame data and a godlike advantage state, but Dedede is very good at poking at him and keeping him out. If Ryu can't find the holes in Dedede's gameplay he's going to lose. His poor air movement means we can chase him very well, as well.

Regardless, I definitely think it's our best top/high tier match-up. Not a winning one, but we can make life hell for Ryu - a rarity among Dedede's match-ups.

 

[Deleted member]

Posted this in the Discord earlier, thought it'd prompt more discussion here. Didn't rank Miis due to my lack of knowledge on them overall and I don't like making guesses. Characters are not ordered. I'm probably far too pessimistic about this character nowadays, but I'm starting to feel like Dedede's winning matchups are starting to get smaller and smaller.

Ryu and Rosa probably are our best top tier MUs getting back to that subject, but we still lose to Ryu. We have the niche of being able to swat away Luma quickly, but Rosa still juggles us to hell and back with our without Luma.

 

[Soul Train]

View attachment 102059

Posted this in the Discord earlier, thought it'd prompt more discussion here. Didn't rank Miis due to my lack of knowledge on them overall and I don't like making guesses. Characters are not ordered. I'm probably far too pessimistic about this character nowadays, but I'm starting to feel like Dedede's winning matchups are starting to get smaller and smaller.

Ryu and Rosa probably are our best top tier MUs getting back to that subject, but we still lose to Ryu. We have the niche of being able to swat away Luma quickly, but Rosa still juggles us to hell and back with our without Luma.

I'm liking the look of the list a lot. Some changes though.

• Samus: down one level to -2. Bad, but nowhere near as hard as Megaman/ZSS/Sonic. Few good kill setups at high %, difficulty threatening shield without commitment.
• Villager: actually not horrible to deal with, if you know how to shield. He can't kill you without a solid read. Hard, but on level with Duck Hunt, but again not as hard as ZSS/Mega/etc.
• Fox: he's hard for us in the same way that Falcon is. But also not as bad as ZSS/Sonic.
• Ganondorf: it's either even or in our advantage. Even with Dorf's buffs, the risk/reward between the two characters is actually very close, but D3 has far better edgeguarding capability, recovery, and range.
• Bowser Jr: still can't do anything to our shield, and his mechakoopas are easy to deal with if you know how to grab them. -1 at worst.
• Palutena: without customs, even.
• Roy: debatable. I'll always say it's even, even just due to his frame data and great movement speed. Lucina/Marth, I have the same thoughts.
• DK isn't nearly as bad Captain Falcon, Bayo, or Diddy. I'd put him at slight disadvantage.

Saving the best for last: Ryu: I've read several times around here that this dude is our best top tier matchup. That he's an...even matchup. Sorry guys, that's just not realistic. We beat Focus Attack with two of our attacks, so what. Ryu has great kill confirms, mixups, recovery, and can zone us all day. Don't even start on his frame data. Far away we lose, up close we lose. At least a -2.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm liking the look of the list a lot. Some changes though.

• Samus: down one level to -2. Bad, but nowhere near as hard as Megaman/ZSS/Sonic. Few good kill setups at high %, difficulty threatening shield without commitment.
• Villager: actually not horrible to deal with, if you know how to shield. He can't kill you without a solid read. Hard, but on level with Duck Hunt, but again not as hard as ZSS/Mega/etc.
• Fox: he's hard for us in the same way that Falcon is. But also not as bad as ZSS/Sonic.
• Ganondorf: it's either even or in our advantage. Even with Dorf's buffs, the risk/reward between the two characters is actually very close, but D3 has far better edgeguarding capability, recovery, and range.
• Bowser Jr: still can't do anything to our shield, and his mechakoopas are easy to deal with if you know how to grab them. -1 at worst.
• Palutena: without customs, even.
• Roy: debatable. I'll always say it's even, even just due to his frame data and great movement speed. Lucina/Marth, I have the same thoughts.
• DK isn't nearly as bad Captain Falcon, Bayo, or Diddy. I'd put him at slight disadvantage.

Saving the best for last: Ryu: I've read several times around here that this dude is our best top tier matchup. That he's an...even matchup. Sorry guys, that's just not realistic. We beat Focus Attack with two of our attacks, so what. Ryu has great kill confirms, mixups, recovery, and can zone us all day. Don't even start on his frame data. Far away we lose, up close we lose. At least a -2.

Thanks, Soul. I appreciate the feedback! To respond to your thoughts though:

: Agreed on her. Bumping it down to -2 is more reasonable. Pretty bad MU for Dedede but it's nowhere near as awful as his worst matchups.
: The main issue in this matchup is that Dedede finds little openings to in on Villager, even if our ftilt is a solid poke in neutral versus him and our multijumps do somewhat help. You're fighting the best defensive character in the entire game while your character has the defense with the strength of paper-mache and a highly exploitable neutral. I will give you though that none of Villager's KO moves are particularly easy to land (even though dtilt is fast and has deceptively good range), but it's still a very bad MU overall.
: Fox is pretty terrible. Even though we can exploit his linear recovery offstage and combo him pretty well once we get in considering he's a fastfaller, good luck doing either of those things in the first place. Fox has an amazing neutral, and his toolkit is just outright hell for Dedede to deal with. Most Foxes don't seem to know the MU, but if you come across one who does then you have my prayers lol.

His speed is just so overwhelming for Dedede to deal with, and a patient, calculated Fox that knows how to use his walk to get in his opponent's head is rather scary to go against. He covers our ledge options pretty well particularly thanks to back air (hell, one of the main reasons struggles in this matchup), and racks up damage on us almost effortlessly. Gordos aren't effective against him at all in neutral considering he has Reflector, jab and tilts, all of which are fast and all very effective at knocking them back. His kill setups aren't particularly hard to land (like sour nair -> usmash) on his either considering our large size and the fact Dedede is a fastfaller himself, and we have a poor tumble animation.
: I can see this as even, but Ganon outdoes us in the air for the most part (even with his troubles dealing with bair) and has a far more threatening damage output. Sour DA -> uair is something we have to fear against him now, combined with his jab being an actually valid get-off-me option now. A lot of people don't realize that patient Ganon > patient Dedede. Flame Choke is always a nightmare to get grabbed by considering the wide amount of possible punishes he has out of it.
: Agreed on what you said on him. Most likely I didn't play the matchup right in the past.
: Palutena isn't even. Faster than us in the air and on the ground, can easily harass us with the her invincible bair and DA in neutral, and Palutenas that know how to use platform/ledge cancel Warps as a movement option are a pain for Dedede to catch and approach. Even if her grounded game suffers from poor frame data and she has trouble dealing from our ftilt range, if a Palutena turtles then it's not pleasant for Dedede. Reflect has a long-lasting hitbox that always makes throwing Gordos towards her risky, and Autoreticle is annoying as a poke. She also has reliable kill setups unlike us, with her jab cancel leading into into KO moves (such as her smashes) or a grab, not to mention she has a hoo-hah.
: Roy barely can threaten our shield, and his lack of reliable KO confirms hurts him pretty badly in the matchup due to how well we can abuse Rage. He's laughably easy to edgeguard and we can keep him out well due to his poor range and approach options.
: Nah. DK's a bad matchup. Utilt and bair swat Gordos like no tomorrow, and he can kill us disgustingly early off a grab at mid to higher percents. He outdoes us both in air and ground movement (he even has the 8th highest air speed in the game), better frame data, and has range to contend with ours and lives long. Like with Foxes, most DKs don't properly know the MU and get beat due to not knowing how to deal with Dedede's toolkit properly at first encounter. Though when you watch a set like Girthquake vs. Bill or his further sets with Will after he learned the MU, you'll see how unpleasant it is for Dedede.
: Agreed. I haven't seen any high-level Dedede vs. Ryu matches though, so it could sway my opinion on the matchup a bit.

 

[Exceladon City]

Not trolling, but the matchup chart above is horrible. Little Mac vs Dedede is free for Deeds. Shulk is even. Dedede honestly bodies Ganondorf. I'll explain my reasoning once I'm off of work in several hours.

 

[Deleted member]

Not trolling, but the matchup chart above is horrible. Little Mac vs Dedede is free for Deeds. Shulk is even. Dedede honestly bodies Ganondorf. I'll explain my reasoning once I'm off of work in several hours.

That is a very tunnel-visioned way to look at matchups.

Dedede literally cannot land against a good Mac, and his great grounded neutral and boxing game is something Dedede cannot contend with consistently. Yes, he's gimpable... but everyone is capable of doing that. Have fun trying to challenge Mac's frame data and pressuring when Dedede's is pretty bad and that's a huge weaknesses for him in the first place. In theory we can keep Mac out with our disjoints like ftilt, but if a Mac shields smart, it's not fun for sure considering Dedede's huge lack of safety on shield.

The Shulk and Dedede Discords had a very lengthy JMU recently, and we came to the conclusion that Shulk had the advantage. Dedede doesn't "body" any characters in this game, and Ganondorf definitely has the toolkit to go up against Dedede. It's even for sure, maybe dare I say in Ganon's favor after the patch. Less lag on dash attack makes his kill confirms more reliable and the move safer on shield, and Wizkick is a valid crossup and safer due to its increased damage as well.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Well, I guess I can voice my opinions on this matter:
I know that Soul Train already talked about this, but even if the DK knows the MU well, I honestly don't see this being worse than a -1. DK has no projectiles and isn't super fast either, so he can't camp us out or run in for a punish halfway across the stage like most of our bad MUs. Also we don't die to his cargo throw without platform assistance, and we can just outrange him most of the time. Also he can't effortlessly swat back gordos. I would say he has to invest just as much as we do, probably more even since we have D-tilt and N-air to reflect with, and he doesn't have a move like that. I really don't fear this MU like I do most others in the -2 tier.
Is this really even? I was thinking it was a lot worse! Pac can charge his fruits on us all day, and we are extremely prone to his setups with the fruits! Also he has much better frame data, and even though his grab is bad, he can just use his up B to hit you in shield in a much safer fashion. Also Pac's hydrant is really annoying and hard to get around, and he doesn't struggle to kill us either with the key or a melon or a hydrant. I have always struggled with this MU. I say -1 or maybe even -2.
I HATE this MU. I would put it in -3. I just feel like I have to work five times as hard as the Corrin for the same effect! I haven't even played versus a Corrin yet that knows they can side B us out of our inhale, and I still think its cancerous to fight. Corrin can deal an easy 30% by simply stinging 2 or 3 aerials and tilts, and god Corrin can punish ANY mistake so well. You missed inhale? Eat a tipper F-smash. You chose the wrong getup option? Fully charged dragon fang. Throw out a move and miss? 30% string. GET AN INHALE? EAT A TIPPER SIDE B! I just hate this MU more than any other right now. Yes we can edgeguard Corrin but that's still not really easy, and good luck getting Corrin off stage in the first place!
I don't think this MU is even. Kirby can do so much damage to us off a single grab and can really stay in our face. People have told me so many times to just not let him get in your face, but that's not easy! Kirby can play patient, wait for an opening which we will eventually give him, then go in and get a ton of percent in. He doesn't struggle with killing either. Kirby is one of the few characters that actually can edgeguard us, and his smashes are super fast, relatively safe, and potent kill moves. Also he doesn't struggle to reflect gordos either. Easy to reflect with N-air, B-air, or Up B. Also he is just so small and hard to get a hold of! Its hard to get damage on him, and if Kirby knows his combos on DDD, he can get easy an 30% off of a B-throw or F-throw. I say at least -1.
I would place him next to Marth and Lucina. They are very similar and all slightly win versus us I believe. I don't think there is enough differences between Roy and Marcina to warrant a two tier gap. In fact, I consider Roy to be stronger than Marcina. Roy is a -1 to me.
I have been having a lot of trouble versus Bowsers recently. He can punish us REALLY well, and he is not easy to kill. It always seems like whenever I fight bowsers it always comes down to last stock with both of us at really high percents, and Bowser simply has better kill options, like side B, any tilt, and throws that can kill at reasonable percents, or literally any read. I rate it even.

I either agree with or am not bothered by the rest of the placements.

 

[Ridel]

I can see where Soul Train is coming from with the Palutena MU and I think I agree with him tbh. She has the mobility and combos but her kill options against Dedede are really hard to land. U-air is her best option and though Dedede is susceptible to down throw -> u-air Dedede has multiple jumps to just avoid poking overall. Palutena's laughable grounded moves are what I think sways it over to even. She is stupid easy to punish with jabs and d-smash and she has little safe replies to smart Gordo placements. Dedede also has a much better zoning game that Palutena. F-tilt is and spaced b-airs can be hard for Palutena to properly punish and she lacks the range to contest them herself. She has a great recovery so gimping her is an issue but it almost doesn't matter when your facing a character with very little safe options overall.

 

[T4ylor]

Some random opinions of mine:

Cloud isn't any worse of a match up than Mario. I tend to stick to a more grounded game against him and shielding goes a long way given that he won't ever kill us with a throw and it isn't overly difficult to recover against him.

Shulk is one of D3's hardest match ups. His bad frame data doesn't mean too much when he still wins with his range anyway. What really does it is the fact that he's the only character in the game that can consistently gimp D3 thanks to his Jump Art.

Fox is on par with ZSS against us. He can just stick to that safe area outside of our range and run in for punishes and laser when there's enough distance. Our risk:reward in this match up is astoundingly low so we'd rarely win against one that knows the match up well.

We can't beat Villager, Mega Man, or ZSS on triple platform stages. Just not enough area to dodge their antics with what our hurtbox and mobility.

My games against Regi and Waymas make me think the Game&Watch and Wario match ups are near even. Our range works wonders in both match ups and our vertical survivability really helps against GnW, since that's where he's going to score the most KOs on us.

Bowser and DK are also near-even and in the same boat against us. We have a better shot at winning exchanges but they get a much bigger reward for winning unless we are able to grab an early gimp.

 

[Axel311]

View attachment 102059

Posted this in the Discord earlier, thought it'd prompt more discussion here. Didn't rank Miis due to my lack of knowledge on them overall and I don't like making guesses. Characters are not ordered. I'm probably far too pessimistic about this character nowadays, but I'm starting to feel like Dedede's winning matchups are starting to get smaller and smaller.

Ryu and Rosa probably are our best top tier MUs getting back to that subject, but we still lose to Ryu. We have the niche of being able to swat away Luma quickly, but Rosa still juggles us to hell and back with our without Luma.

You're not alone, getting more and more pessimistic about Dedede's matchup myself.

Thoughts from a mid level players' tourney experiences -

I would push Diddy to -3. This matchup is absolutely horrendous. Neutral is just ridiculously difficult. His speed and grab game is a nightmare. Unless we can force him to Up B and not monkey flip to recover we really can't edgeguard him. He can lame Dedede out all day in neutral, Dedede is so slow Diddy just runs away and gets bananas whenever he wants. Peanuts and his fair wreck gordos. It's so so bad, but mainly his speed and multitude of options make this terrible. Banana to Fsmash can actually kill Dedede pretty early near the ledge.

is obviously horrendous, Dedede is like the perfect target for her. She baits out a commitment and then juggles you forever. -3 as well.

I used to think Dedede won this solidly, but as I play more good bowsers am now questioning it. It's either even or slightly in Dedede's favor. One big thing is Ftilt isn't safe on shield. Bowser's groundspeed gives us issues. Reverse inhale and retreating bairs along with slow bounce gordos give him approaching issues, but his hoo hah game is scary.

- has his flaws but at the end up the day he has the speed and frame data to follow the same exploitative gameplan every character should utilize against Dedede. Even at best, probably -1.

-3 I think gives Pika too much credit. ESAM recently listed this and 6-4 in pika's favor. -2 in my opinion. Pikachu combos forever and abuses Dedede offstage but has issues finishing the stock and has range issues, particularly against retreating bair. Dedede should be able to get good use out of rage as he'll live forever.

- I don't see how this isn't even atleast. The only real projectile threat is can. DHD's recovery/disadvantage state is so horrendous, he's one of the easiest characters to edgeguard. And he has issues killing, Dedede lives forever. Probably even. I used to think this was a rough matchup, but it's really not.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I used to think Dedede won this solidly, but as I play more good bowsers am now questioning it. It's either even or slightly in Dedede's favor. One big thing is Ftilt isn't safe on shield. Bowser's groundspeed gives us issues. Reverse inhale and retreating bairs along with slow bounce gordos give him approaching issues, but his hoo hah game is scary.

-3 I think gives Pika too much credit. ESAM recently listed this and 6-4 in pika's favor. -2 in my opinion. Pikachu combos forever and abuses Dedede offstage but has issues finishing the stock and has range issues, particularly against retreating bair. Dedede should be able to get good use out of rage as he'll live forever.

- I don't see how this isn't even atleast. The only real projectile threat is can. DHD's recovery/disadvantage state is so horrendous, he's one of the easiest characters to edgeguard. And he has issues killing, Dedede lives forever. Probably even. I used to think this was a rough matchup, but it's really not.

I would like to start some discussion on these three MUs specifically, because I really do think that these are worth debate.

Man Bowser used to be the easiest character in the cast to body IMO, but recently I have run into three different bowsers each with very different playstyles that have given me a LOT of trouble. The first time a bowser gave me a lot of trouble, I won game 1 since he had never played a DDD before, but in game 2 and 3 he proved that he quickly learned the MU and significantly changed things by exploiting Dedede's weaknesses, lag, and trouble resetting to neutral, and he punished all of my mistakes very hard. Then I ran into a Bowser on FG, and while FG may not be the best place for MU analysis, I played this Bowser for a very long time with minimal lag, and I just could not beat him consistently. This bowser was really good at maintaining stage control once he got it, as he was really good at covering my ledge get ups, and just wouldn't lose momentum once he got it. Then just last week I played a Bowser main who frequents my locals, but I played him for the first time in tourney, and he was an extremely patient bowser, and his mixup game was strong. He got in my head, and I was scared! However this particular experience was the most significant to me because on that same day I beat 3 different Clouds in tourney, and a Rosalina, and yet I lost to a Bowser, and this man frequently placed very similarly to me whenever I competed, so I would say we were on equal skill level, but he beat me 2-0. I have really been having trouble with Bowsers recently!

I recently took a game off the best Pika in SoCal, NCJacobT, who is power ranked 13th here. This isn't even the first time I have faced his Pikachu, so it wasn't complete unfamiliarity with the MU. I still lost the set but I took at least 1 stock off him every game. I used to think that the Pika MU was absolutely horrible for DDD, especially if they play lame, but NCJacobT is a bit infamous for playing lame, and I still was able to closely contend with him. I was simply able to exploit my range and survivability to win neutral enough to take stocks. This experience has made me have second thoughts about the MU, and I no longer see it as cancerous

My girlfriend and most common practice partner mains Duck Hunt, so I am quite familiar with the MU, and I can definitively say that with proper MU knowledge, this MU is not bad at all. We still lose it, mind you, but not by much. DHD's biggest problem here is inability to KO. Even if DHD gets a read, you might fall out of the final hit, since all of DHD's killing blows are multi-hit except for sweetspotted B-air, which isn't exactly easy to hit with. The next best advantage we get is DHD's horrible recovery. If the DHD isn't a master at teching, you will easily stage spike them with B-air if they have to use their up B, do not let that opportunity get away. Also once you get in on DHD he can't really do much to get you out, even as DDD. That's the problem though, getting in. DHD's projectiles are really friggin annoying since you can't really power shield them except for the gunman, but the gunman all shoot at different speeds, so it is still really difficult to do, and DHD can opt to not activate the frisbee or can when it can hit your shield and run in for a grab instead. DHD will probably rack up a lot of damage before you can get in, but that can only get him so far, as he really struggles killing, and he is very prone to early deaths from our edgeguarding, and by the fact that we can keep pressure on him well once we are in. We don't lose this MU by much, and I can actually see it being even.

 

[Cooki5]

Went to a tournament yesterday with dedede and lost to a good sonic who didn't approach at all. Just stood in one place, waited for me to approach and spin dashed (after that up air most of the time). -> Repeat.

I couldn't to anything at all. I felt like approaching for me was impossible. I felt like approaching alone was already a mistake for me with dedede that he could easily punish. But I had no choice. (He said he would just let the time run out when he had a % lead against me lol)

I tryed to catch him with forward tilt. Down tilt. Inhale. Anything, but sonic's too fast. Gordo's are reflected easily and often bring more harm than good.

Any thoughts?

 

[Axel311]

Went to a tournament yesterday with dedede and lost to a good sonic who didn't approach at all. Just stood in one place, waited for me to approach and spin dashed (after that up air most of the time). -> Repeat.

I couldn't to anything at all. I felt like approaching for me was impossible. I felt like approaching alone was already a mistake for me with dedede that he could easily punish. But I had no choice. (He said he would just let the time run out when he had a % lead against me lol)

I tryed to catch him with forward tilt. Down tilt. Inhale. Anything, but sonic's too fast. Gordo's are reflected easily and often bring more harm than good.

Any thoughts?

Unfortunately I don't think there's much Dedede can do against a campy Sonic. It's a really, really, bad matchup. One of Dedede's worst, if not his single worst matchup. Seems what it comes down to is you really having to make some hard reads to win.

Just my opinion -

I've found mixing things up with pivot ftilts useful for catching spindash approaches in this matchup. Make sure you approach slowly by walking. Avoid FD and Duck Hunt, go for a small stage as possible. Sonic thrives on big, non-platform stages. My favorite against Sonic is smashville personally.

 

[SalsaSavant]

What I like to do against Sonic is to sort of float in mid-air and slowly approach, landing at random times to try and bait a poorly timed spindash or homing attack, then F-Fall Nair.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

N-air is really good in the sonic MU as it beats out spindash. Also you can use D-tilt to clank with the spindash, but that should only be used as a mixup since after the clank Sonic has faster options than us, but he won't be expecting to use them if he isn't expecting a clank, and you can hit him with jab or F-tilt or grab. Also check to see if the sonic is mixing up his follow ups off of spin dash. If he is doing the same thing every time (as many sonics do), you can expect it and punish or reset to neutral. Gordos are still useful in this MU but be prepared to N-air to hit them back if sonic hits them, just make sure you have a plan for every gordo. And most importantly, do not let that annoying blue blur frustrate you! Keep your cool throughout the match! He may win neutral a lot more than you do, but when you win neutral you can get a lot more reward, but you must not get mad or discouraged!

 

[Dededeity]

The thing with the sonic matchup is to get the lead early and force them to approach. Wait for the mistake and try to get something started, usually f-tilt, is pretty safe. Sadly it can be pretty hard/risky going for a grab against the ******* unless he's recklessly throwing out terrible moves. IMO, this is when you pull out your secondary though. If you stick with D3 on this one, even if you win you just wasted 8 minutes of your life playing one of the most boring and infuriating matches in the game since neither of you are going to be able to kill each other reliably.

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

Is it just me, or does dedede seem to be able to jump out of Marios's up tilt string? Mashing jump let's me get out at about 15% instead of ~30%. Donno if anyone else has seen this.

 

[Soul Train]

Is it just me, or does dedede seem to be able to jump out of Marios's up tilt string? Mashing jump let's me get out at about 15% instead of ~30%. Donno if anyone else has seen this.

Yep. Though it's in no way unique to D3. At 0 you can DI down and power shield the first Utilt. Any higher and you can DI up and away to get out after a few uptilts. Some Mario's are smart though and go for their UpB sooner than later, and that's usually guaranteed.

 

[Flawed]

I want to just mention as a bayonetta player on the D3 matchup.

-We consider ZSS 70:30 correct?
-Bayonetta is a solid 65:30


Bayonetta has few moves that are safe to throw out and safe on shield.
B-Air, and dtilt.

D3 is a part of the crew of heavy characters that die to Dtilt at 0%. No DI can save them, nothing helps, its all on Bayonetta.
(dtilt, fair 1, up b, jump, abk, abk, up b/ fair 1 up b provided they tried their hardest and slightly SDI'd.) Its a true combo, and there isn't a damn thing that we can do to escape it. (Besides picking battlefield - great choice)

Bair when spaced, is safe on shield. Bayonettas who understand D3's weakness will simply turn their back toward you and short hop , throwing occasional bairs mixing up with autocanceled air dodge. Bair is safe and isnt as laggy as you would hope literally 1 frame longer than ZSS.

Recovery also is not an issue for her as she has up b which really doesn't care about anything . D3 attempting to edgegaurd? Dont sideb, use up b.

D3 is also part of the heavy crew of characters that cannot really throw out something safely to contest bayonetta jumping and bairing. He also dies to a falling up air at 18%.
(falling up air, bair, up air, bair, abk- blah blah fair) another true combo that only works on the heavies, and again, being that it isnt the signature bayo shenanigans, you will not have a clue that a simple falling up air means death at 18%. And that move is also not bad on shield either.

Bayonetta gains far too much on D3 with upthrow as well. Can upthrow up b, up b, fair, for free 38% at 0%. Can even follow up after that if the D3 isn't aware the combo isnt finished. After that she gains upthrow followups for a stupid while, ensuring free damage either with the strong up air or the bullets/weak up air.

Theres a lot more, but some of you should try to play bayo and see what is possible

 

[Soul Train]

I want to just mention as a bayonetta player on the D3 matchup.

-We consider ZSS 70:30 correct?
-Bayonetta is a solid 65:30


Bayonetta has few moves that are safe to throw out and safe on shield.
B-Air, and dtilt.

D3 is a part of the crew of heavy characters that die to Dtilt at 0%. No DI can save them, nothing helps, its all on Bayonetta.
(dtilt, fair 1, up b, jump, abk, abk, up b/ fair 1 up b provided they tried their hardest and slightly SDI'd.) Its a true combo, and there isn't a damn thing that we can do to escape it. (Besides picking battlefield - great choice)

Bair when spaced, is safe on shield. Bayonettas who understand D3's weakness will simply turn their back toward you and short hop , throwing occasional bairs mixing up with autocanceled air dodge. Bair is safe and isnt as laggy as you would hope literally 1 frame longer than ZSS.

Recovery also is not an issue for her as she has up b which really doesn't care about anything . D3 attempting to edgegaurd? Dont sideb, use up b.

D3 is also part of the heavy crew of characters that cannot really throw out something safely to contest bayonetta jumping and bairing. He also dies to a falling up air at 18%.
(falling up air, bair, up air, bair, abk- blah blah fair) another true combo that only works on the heavies, and again, being that it isnt the signature bayo shenanigans, you will not have a clue that a simple falling up air means death at 18%. And that move is also not bad on shield either.

Bayonetta gains far too much on D3 with upthrow as well. Can upthrow up b, up b, fair, for free 38% at 0%. Can even follow up after that if the D3 isn't aware the combo isnt finished. After that she gains upthrow followups for a stupid while, ensuring free damage either with the strong up air or the bullets/weak up air.

Theres a lot more, but some of you should try to play bayo and see what is possible

This makes my face hurt.

But I'm interested in the comparison. It sounds like (and in my experience) ZSS shuts us down in neutral a bit harder, but Bayo has more kill confirms on us. If so, it's hard to label one worse than the other. Hmm..

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

This makes my face hurt.

But I'm interested in the comparison. It sounds like (and in my experience) ZSS shuts us down in neutral a bit harder, but Bayo has more kill confirms on us. If so, it's hard to label one worse than the other. Hmm..

At first I would say that Bayonetta would be the bigger problem, but the neutral being so hard with ZSS.... I think ZSS would be slightly worse. At least Bayonetta is slow, and laggy. ZSS can shut down Dedede faster than Nintendo did PM.

 

[Flawed]

A lot of players love to talk about how Bayonettas neutral game is terrible- which isn't true at all. King Dedede's neutral game is terrible. Bayonetta's is just slightly under average.

Up b and downward ABK are completely safe - especially with D3's abysmal speed. Nair and Bair are amazing to spam, the former is excellent cross up.

Ahem..

I am struggling with good bayonettas. Honestly, I feel I'm a good player- some days even a top player level- but I dont understand the match up from D3's side at all. I throw gordos and hope for the best. Usually end up dying to a bair at 175% or so while shes at 10% last stock.

Also I learned something - 90% sure of its truth ( will lab soon) - She can camp king D3 at the ledge over 100% with bullet climax if she stands a certain distance. Its similar to how game and watch can shut us down with chef. We cant get up off the ledge fast enough to shield, roll , or jump through it.


forgot to also mention that up b > d3 up b armor

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Also I learned something - 90% sure of its truth ( will lab soon) - She can camp king D3 at the ledge over 100% with bullet climax if she stands a certain distance. Its similar to how game and watch can shut us down with chef. We cant get up off the ledge fast enough to shield, roll , or jump through it.

Maybe the low-bouncing-gordo-from-the-ledge tech that we saw Big D use against ZeRo would work for us in this situation. If you are going to lab this, try seeing if the gordo can go under Bayo's bullets and hit her in that position. This is an underutilized tech and it would be great to see a good use for it. Also we need a better name for it lol

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Cancelling means you can interrupt the animation of a move with another. Jab 1, Jab 2, grab isn't a cancel, it's a string. And since the frame data is so bad on jab, it's actually a very unsafe string; Yoshi can Nair out of it almost every time.

With killing aerials: I specifically said when averaged D3's kill %s and frame data are the worst among the heavies. Very different.

Buffwise: fix broken hitboxes, make zoning tools actually safe when spaced right, improve frame data on Gordo/Inhale, and better knockback on throws. Check out the list in the original post.

I'd really recommend you play matches outside of For Glory - try Anther's Ladder, or better yet play some of the better players in our Discord chat. Even if you just want faster, quick feedback - there's a link in the master resource thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/read-before-making-new-threads-the-dededirectory.421338/. Take a look, and be sure to use some of the resources here.

So I took your advice. I signed myself up for Anthers Ladder, met a guy, and we played friendlies. And he was playing.. Guess who.
Little Mac. And he was the best one I have ever fought. He beat me several times. I want to keep this short because I know I'm not supposed to be talking about Matchups here, but I still believe Dedede can beat Mac. I'll leave at that.

 

[Axel311]

So I took your advice. I signed myself up for Anthers Ladder, met a guy, and we played friendlies. And he was playing.. Guess who.
Little Mac. And he was the best one I have ever fought. He beat me several times. I want to keep this short because I know I'm not supposed to be talking about Matchups here, but I still believe Dedede can beat Mac. I'll leave at that.

Personally I don't get why Little Mac players complain about the Dedede matchup all the time. I've even heard Sol complain about it on stream once. I don't see how it's not in Mac's favor solidly. I hate fighting good Macs as Dedede.

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

Personally I don't get why Little Mac players complain about the Dedede matchup all the time. I've even heard Sol complain about it on stream once. I don't see how it's not in Mac's favor solidly. I hate fighting good Macs as Dedede.

Watching our entire Ftilt get super armored in slow motion while Little Mac is Fsmashing, feelsbadman.

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

Personally I don't get why Little Mac players complain about the Dedede matchup all the time. I've even heard Sol complain about it on stream once. I don't see how it's not in Mac's favor solidly. I hate fighting good Macs as Dedede.

Whenever I play a mac, I find that I inhale more often than against other chars. It trumps his super armor on f-smash and neutralizes a lot of his speed by putting him in the air. Also you can just puff around and bait his moves before landing safely. I think mac has the advantage, but I think that he has to play differently than other chars because of the way that d3 can control his movement passively with inhale and puffing around. Having to play differently even if they still have the advantage makes players angry, so they complain about the matchup.