Data General Match-Up Discussion Thread (ask about matchups here!)

[shrooby]

Want to learn to how to clobber different opponents? Want to know how to not get clobbered? You've come to the right thread!

Any strategies or match-up woes you feel like sharing? Just want to ask how you might handle a certain character? Post away!

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I think it goes without saying that dedede hates projectile spammers, especially link, toon link, samus, duck hunt, mega man, and bowser jr. However, I feel that these matches are far from impossible. I have found that the best strategy against these guys is to stay above their line of fire, and hit some gordos at them from above, so that they land directly on them. This causes them to either put up a shield, possibly giving you time to land close to them, or they will roll, which can be punished if they do so predictably. However, getting the KO is difficult, since it is hard to land a strong attack. To do this, it is best to read a roll, or edge guard them effectively, and you should stand a fighting chance against them.
Also, it is good to remember that dedede can swallow a strong projectile and take no damage, such as a fully charged aura sphere from lucario, or charge shot from samus.

 

[Ludiloco]

My worst matchups:

1. Rosalina: This is a pain. Just forget about trying to get in when Luma is around, it doesn't happen. Rosalina can get massive strings of juggles, and due to our weight and her priority on her aerials can effectively make Dedede's life frustrating. Trying to recover to the stage is also very difficult against one who knows what they're doing.

I'd say f-tilt is going to be your best tool of damaging Luma and putting pressure on her. Once Luma is gone, we have the opportunity to get in and get throw combos. Luckily she dies early, so if you can be consistent with punishes this is not an unwinnable matchup. I'd say 60-40 Rosalina's favor.

2. Sonic: Also very frustrating. Sonic has the ability to cross us up and combo us for days with f-special, and is one of the few characters that makes you realize just how slow Deeds's moves come out. Again, f-tilt is a nice tool against spin dash but unlike Rosalina it's completely unsafe to throw out even at medium distances. For us to effectively condition Sonic against spin dashing, we must hold the 3rd jab until he releases and takes damage or stops spinning.

Keys to the matchup are to be patient (annoying opponents into frustration is how Sonic works), stay on the ground unless chasing from below, and be sure to capitalize on his predictable recovery for edge guards. Don't get frustrated if Sonic racks up big damage, as we can bring it back easily and Sonic can't kill us until very late (Except with back throw. Do NOT follow a Sonic to the edge at high %.). Don't use Gordos unless to edge guard, and punish his average close combat options with jabs and f-tilts until opportunity for a kill reveals itself. I'd tilt this one only slightly in Sonic's favor.

Matchups with similar analysis to Sonic: Pikachu, Sheik.

3. Samus: Along with Robin one of the few characters that can space Dedede from long range. Dealing with missiles is super frustrating. If you block them, fully charged shot can come out and break your shield. If you spot dodge, you gain no positioning. If you roll, you likely roll into another missile. If you jump, you get up-aired. This, along with Samus's annoying mobility keeps Dedede at bay and keeps racking up damage for the fully charged neutral b kill.

This is a matchup I have little experience with, but my guess would be to jump over the missiles as Samus is weaker in air than on the ground. If you can bait her into coming after you in the air, you can fall to the ground and exploit her weak short-range game. Her recovery is also relatively easy to punish, one of the few instances I can see dair being of some use.


A comment on swallow in projectile spam matchups: Because of the time it takes to fire up swallow and the cooldown it has while Dedede swallows the projectile, I think this is a very dangerous tool to use against things like Mega Man's f-smash and Samus's charge shot. This can work very well, however, in coming down from above the spammer and putting them at a positioning disadvantage.

 

[shrooby]

I think it goes without saying that dedede hates projectile spammers, especially link, toon link, samus, duck hunt, mega man, and bowser jr. However, I feel that these matches are far from impossible. I have found that the best strategy against these guys is to stay above their line of fire, and hit some gordos at them from above, so that they land directly on them. This causes them to either put up a shield, possibly giving you time to land close to them, or they will roll, which can be punished if they do so predictably. However, getting the KO is difficult, since it is hard to land a strong attack. To do this, it is best to read a roll, or edge guard them effectively, and you should stand a fighting chance against them.
Also, it is good to remember that dedede can swallow a strong projectile and take no damage, such as a fully charged aura sphere from lucario, or charge shot from samus.

Characters which can really pull out a barrage of projectiles are annoying. The important thing to do against some of them is abuse the fact that they'll have to get close to you eventually to KO you.
Samus, Robin, Lucario, Mega Man and Pac-Man have projectiles that should actually scare you due to KO potential, but the others don't really.
Meaning they'll have to approach you eventually if they want you dead.
Against Link, for example, this is especially important to keep in mind. 'Cause once you're close to Link he's at a disadvantage. Especially when he's trying to kill since his kill moves are pretty easy to react to overall.
Patience is really important. Work your way in slowly but surely.

I've heard how annoying Sonic is. I need to fight a good Sonic sometime...

 

[ndayday]

Thoughts on Mario? Consistently a bad matchup for me at least.

Fireballs are annoying and because they're usually short hopped they can be away from your range by the time you run up to them. because they're shorthopped you can't get the usual gordo throw onto their head you can get against characters that stay grounded for their projectiles. there's also the dthrow combos and quick aerials and down b. I don't know, I usually have such a hard time approaching one since ftilt can be shielded for its duration, same with dtilt, fair is ultra laggy when going in low and shff nair get shielded as well. sh bair can be made to hit at ground level and that seems to work but it requires them to be approaching you generally.

HELP

 

[shrooby]

Mario is consistently annoying for me.
It requires a ton of patience, to say the least. You really don't want to commit to anything until you know it'll work.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Ok, so I've seen that a lot of people are having trouble with sonic as dedede. I personally don't get it? I haven't actually faced that many sonics, probably only 2 good ones, but I fought each one of those as dedede for multiple matches, and I have been able to win more often than loose. I've found that simply shielding a lot works when sonic is charging up for an approach. Just don't let go of shield until you see an opening or he looks like he might grab. Sonic doesnt have many shield depleting options, and he may get a lot of attacks off in a successful combo, but dedede can take that damage easily. The only way he can KO you is with a side or up smash, or an up air near the top of the stage. Also, for sonics that love to Dair, Dedede's up air overrides it, and makes sonic fly far! Also, sonics will get annoying after getting hit so much, but remember, you can KO him at a third of the percentage it takes for him to KO you!

 

[toadster101]

Thoughts on Mario? Consistently a bad matchup for me at least.

Fireballs are annoying and because they're usually short hopped they can be away from your range by the time you run up to them. because they're shorthopped you can't get the usual gordo throw onto their head you can get against characters that stay grounded for their projectiles. there's also the dthrow combos and quick aerials and down b. I don't know, I usually have such a hard time approaching one since ftilt can be shielded for its duration, same with dtilt, fair is ultra laggy when going in low and shff nair get shielded as well. sh bair can be made to hit at ground level and that seems to work but it requires them to be approaching you generally.

HELP

Mario has horrible reach, so you should be able to take advantage of that if you play patiently. It's an extremely annoying match-up, sure, but I don't think it's unwinnable. Just space with jab and forward tilt constantly and you might get lucky.

Ok, so I've seen that a lot of people are having trouble with sonic as dedede. I personally don't get it? I haven't actually faced that many sonics, probably only 2 good ones, but I fought each one of those as dedede for multiple matches, and I have been able to win more often than loose. I've found that simply shielding a lot works when sonic is charging up for an approach. Just don't let go of shield until you see an opening or he looks like he might grab. Sonic doesnt have many shield depleting options, and he may get a lot of attacks off in a successful combo, but dedede can take that damage easily. The only way he can KO you is with a side or up smash, or an up air near the top of the stage. Also, for sonics that love to Dair, Dedede's up air overrides it, and makes sonic fly far! Also, sonics will get annoying after getting hit so much, but remember, you can KO him at a third of the percentage it takes for him to KO you!

Good Sonic users never use down air, especially not against King Dedede. Sonic can cancel his spindash and grab you while you're shielding, so say goodbye to your "simple" strategy. Nothing is ever as simple as it sounds.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I guess I must have never faced an intelligent sonic. I knew there had to be a reason why so many people have trouble with him.

 

[toadster101]

I guess I must have never faced an intelligent sonic. I knew there had to be a reason why so many people have trouble with him.

Honestly, I felt the same way you did at first, but then I battled a guy named "Shadow" who has never made me feel more helpless in my life. He was canceling his spindashes left and right, so I couldn't anticipate any of his moves. It's the only non-projectile character I struggle against. Granted, seemingly 80% of the cast have access to projectiles.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Granted, seemingly 80% of the cast have access to projectiles.

Dedede also has one but yeah...thanks for the easy reflect Sakurai. I wish I played characters in that 80%. :/

 

[Lavani]

Well this thread sure sprang to life while I wasn't looking.

Re:
This matchup always surprised me with how frustrating it can be. Mario's end lag on everything is so low and Dedede's startup on everything is so high, and fireballs can keep Dedede out so well, that Mario feels like he controls the match most of the time. On the other hand, Dedede outranges him massively and can edgeguard his poor recovery easily.

Dash into shield to approach through fireballs, use (pivot) ftilt/sh bair/fh fair to stuff his approaches. All of his aerials should be shield grabbable, but be wary of the low landing lag on nair and the nonexistent endlag on dair (unsure of how quickly he can nair after dair; might be a frametrap?). I'm always highly wary of Gordo use in the matchup since Mario's likely to reflect them without even trying with fireballs and nair.

It's worth noting (unless it changed in 1.0.4, pretty sure it didn't) that Mario can't Cape Gordos. Of course he can reflect them with other hits, but it's a piece of matchup knowledge they may not know about, and it saves you the trouble of worrying about reflected Gordos with amplified damage.

Feels the matchup is slightly in Mario's favor. I'd like to think Dedede's range and potential for low percent edgeguards may mean it's even but idk

Re:
I find it really funny that I used to think this matchup was slightly in Dedede's favor because of how easily he could kill Luma; playing it from the Rosalina side of things, rapid jab and uair/utilt/usmash just ruin Dedede's life.

Spaced autocancelled bair is fairly (completely?) safe on shield and tends to dispatch Luma effectively without putting yourself at risk of being shieldgrabbed; dtilt, dsmash, jab combo, and dash attack will all get the job done too if you have an opening to use them. When Rosalina loses Luma, she loses a lot of her disjoint as well as nearly all of her kill power, and her damage output and combo potential likewise suffer for it.

Offstage, Rosalina's upB is highly vulnerable to edgeguarding, though her recovery speed and distance lets her mix up whether she goes for the ledge or across the stage/to a platform. In Dedede's case, I don't believe any of her or Luma's aerials hit hard enough to break through his upB super armor, her spike included, so recovering low is the way to go; recovering high gives Rosalina the opportunity to punish with uair juggles, and at 10+4% each you don't want any part of that.

Matchup jank: Because of the massive hitlag when Gordos hit, any Gordos that hit Luma will hang in front of Rosalina's face for awhile and then rebound. The Gordo will hit Rosalina for 10% if she tries to run forward through it in this state.

I feel Dedede wins without Luma around, and Rosalina easily wins with him. Maybe 40:60 if I had to slap a number on it, but I'm not feeling too confident in the number.

Re:
As far as projectile characters go, Samus is the only one I've never felt shut out by. Her end lag on projectiles is fairly substantial and she can't drift away while firing them like Yoshi or Mario can, so (power)shielding through them to approach isn't too rough. Once he's in, he can slap her around with his disjoints.

I don't have much to say about the matchup overall, but I don't feel like it's bad for Dedede.

 

[ndayday]

yeah lavani you pretty much said it.
In addition you will never get a chance to go for your dthrow folllowups with luma out. I generally don't think that mu is awful though.
also I don't have the game in front of atm but pretty sure mario can cape gordos.

 

[Lavani]

I know I have pre-1.0.4 replays where Marios have caped Gordos and then gotten hit in the face by them anyway.

I'll doublecheck in training though.

EDIT: Okay, I see what's going on now. The cape's hitbox won't reflect Gordos if it hits them; the reflectbox will, but it's smaller than the hitbox and it only boosts the damage while reflecting at the same speed. Hitting it back at Mario after he capes a Gordo makes it hit really hard, for what it's worth.

 

[toadster101]

Well this thread sure sprang to life while I wasn't looking.

Re:
This matchup always surprised me with how frustrating it can be. Mario's end lag on everything is so low and Dedede's startup on everything is so high, and fireballs can keep Dedede out so well, that Mario feels like he controls the match most of the time. On the other hand, Dedede outranges him massively and can edgeguard his poor recovery easily.

Dash into shield to approach through fireballs, use (pivot) ftilt/sh bair/fh fair to stuff his approaches. All of his aerials should be shield grabbable, but be wary of the low landing lag on nair and the nonexistent endlag on dair (unsure of how quickly he can nair after dair; might be a frametrap?). I'm always highly wary of Gordo use in the matchup since Mario's likely to reflect them without even trying with fireballs and nair.

It's worth noting (unless it changed in 1.0.4, pretty sure it didn't) that Mario can't Cape Gordos. Of course he can reflect them with other hits, but it's a piece of matchup knowledge they may not know about, and it saves you the trouble of worrying about reflected Gordos with amplified damage.

Feels the matchup is slightly in Mario's favor. I'd like to think Dedede's range and potential for low percent edgeguards may mean it's even but idk

Re:
I find it really funny that I used to think this matchup was slightly in Dedede's favor because of how easily he could kill Luma; playing it from the Rosalina side of things, rapid jab and uair/utilt/usmash just ruin Dedede's life.

Spaced autocancelled bair is fairly (completely?) safe on shield and tends to dispatch Luma effectively without putting yourself at risk of being shieldgrabbed; dtilt, dsmash, jab combo, and dash attack will all get the job done too if you have an opening to use them. When Rosalina loses Luma, she loses a lot of her disjoint as well as nearly all of her kill power, and her damage output and combo potential likewise suffer for it.

Offstage, Rosalina's upB is highly vulnerable to edgeguarding, though her recovery speed and distance lets her mix up whether she goes for the ledge or across the stage/to a platform. In Dedede's case, I don't believe any of her or Luma's aerials hit hard enough to break through his upB super armor, her spike included, so recovering low is the way to go; recovering high gives Rosalina the opportunity to punish with uair juggles, and at 10+4% each you don't want any part of that.

Matchup jank: Because of the massive hitlag when Gordos hit, any Gordos that hit Luma will hang in front of Rosalina's face for awhile and then rebound. The Gordo will hit Rosalina for 10% if she tries to run forward through it in this state.

I feel Dedede wins without Luma around, and Rosalina easily wins with him. Maybe 40:60 if I had to slap a number on it, but I'm not feeling too confident in the number.

Re:
As far as projectile characters go, Samus is the only one I've never felt shut out by. Her end lag on projectiles is fairly substantial and she can't drift away while firing them like Yoshi or Mario can, so (power)shielding through them to approach isn't too rough. Once he's in, he can slap her around with his disjoints.

I don't have much to say about the matchup overall, but I don't feel like it's bad for Dedede.

Did you like, buy a bootleg copy of the game? Not only does Mario's cape deflect Gordos (it has always been able to), but they're sent back to you at double the speed/power. The fact that you think Samus isn't a bad matchup for Dedede is the most laughable thing I've read all morning. I'm not trying to be rude, but it doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about.

 

[Lavani]

Did you like, buy a bootleg copy of the game? Not only does Mario's cape deflect Gordos (it has always been able to), but they're sent back to you at double the speed/power. The fact that you think Samus isn't a bad matchup for Dedede is the most laughable thing I've read all morning. I'm not trying to be rude, but it doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about.

The cape thing's apparently been a really lucky and consistent coincidence for me. It can happen if Mario tippers with the cape instead of hitting with the part closer to his hand. The cape also doesn't change the Gordo's speed on reflect, in 1.0.0 or 1.0.4, so even in the worst case scenario I don't see it being more threatening than if he were to send it flying straight at you with a nair/usmash/etc.

I really don't see where Samus is a problem compared to other projectile characters. Missiles are so laggy even Dedede can approach her by powershielding them, nair beats any level of charge shot short of full charge as well as both homing and super missiles, and at close range Dedede's disjoints beat her options...as does shielding, Samus' attacks are quick to start but slow to end and her grab is terrible. I'm not saying Dedede beats her, but I don't feel like he loses the matchup either, and I definitely don't find her as threatening as characters like Mega Man, Duck Hunt, (Toon) Link, etc.

 

[shrooby]

I recall awhile ago some bringing up the custom move Dedede Storm helping against Rosalina.
RNG isn't kind to me, and I don't have that move. Could someone elaborate on that?
Or has that idea been beaten down to the ground since being brought up?

nair beats any level of charge shot short of full charge

*dying a laughter*
It looks like he's just kinda absorbing it with his girth.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Quite ironically, I have fought so many projectile heavy characters as dedede (since my opponent always picks one after the first match if I win) that I have little experience against other characters in comparison. I have found that facing some projectile characters is now easier than characters I should dominate, especially link as I have faced more of them than any other character, so it seems.
I think this might be due to people using projectile characters against me despite not maining them, but I have less trouble with link and duck hunt than I do with characters like jigglypuff and greninja on average. It is a strange phenomenon, but link and duck hunt specifically no longer scare me at all.
I still have trouble touching good samus players though, but I've gotten my win rate against the average samus to about 50-50.

 

[Ludiloco]

I know I have pre-1.0.4 replays where Marios have caped Gordos and then gotten hit in the face by them anyway.

I'll doublecheck in training though.

EDIT: Okay, I see what's going on now. The cape's hitbox won't reflect Gordos if it hits them; the reflectbox will, but it's smaller than the hitbox and it only boosts the damage while reflecting at the same speed. Hitting it back at Mario after he capes a Gordo makes it hit really hard, for what it's worth.

The thing is, Mario and Dr. Mario don't even HAVE to cape gordos. Fireballs/pills reflect them back and make them very hard to react to, especially when the fireballs/pills are pestering you in the first place. They are a tool that forces DDD to approach, and that in my opinion (besides getting juggled) is what makes the Mario/Dr. Mario MU annoying. However, like most combo based characters their damage output isn't all that threatening and Dedede can get the lead back with 2-3 well placed blows. Their recovery really isn't that great either (edge guarding Doc almost isn't necessary) and they can be forced into recovering high with an up-tilted Gordo and then punished with a fair. I think the MU is pretty even. Same goes for Luigi, but tornado is a bit more annoying and he's a tad less gimpable.

Gordos just simply shouldn't be used in the matchup except to cover your ledge grab or to edge guard the opponent.

Edit: Sorry, didn't read your previous post where you mentioned that stuff.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I'm not quite sure how relevant this might be for the matchup against Ness, but as you may or may not know, his PK Thunder 2 goes about half the distance if he comes into contact with something. Typically, that would be your body if you are out there and make a mistake when edge-guarding...but this also applies to Gordos! I don't know if a Gordo lodged in the wall of the stage achieves the same effect, but I imagine it does. So that might be something to keep in mind when playing against Ness.

Outside of that, his small body and good air control seems to make it easy for him to weave in and out of our hammer range...I personally don't have much trouble with Ness (likely due to match-up experience from PM), but I think I've seen some Dededes talk about having trouble with him. The main thing I do in this match is try to out space him, since everything we do hits from a distance, and get in close whenever possible to get those grab combos. I'm not afraid to go out pretty deep to edge guard him either, since his recovery is pretty telegraphed. I dunno how bad or good this match-up actually is, but I think if you play intelligently it could play out in your favor.

 

[Ludiloco]

We all wanna talk about tough matchups, but what in your opinion are D3's easiest matchups?

I tend to have no trouble against other heavies, DK and ganondorf particularly give me almost no trouble. Bowser is tougher due to his quickness, but still favorable.

I also find floaties that struggle with spacing have a hard time getting in, especially jigglypuff peach and Zelda. Basically anyone that can't combo the crap out of me is even or easy

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I dunno why, but my easiest match-up as D3 is easily Captain Falcon. I just feel like we beat everything he does. Sure, he may be faster than us, but we got a big stick to poke him with, our grab combos work well, and he's a fair bit easier to edgeguard than certain other characters.

 

[Ludiloco]

Falcon is pretty easy for sure. Super easy to edge guard, has almost no answer for inhale, and hates Gordos when not on the ground.

The best thing is Falcon sucks at edge guarding us. Just float out there as he tries to go out and spike you, then drop low and snap up B to the edge as he has to recover. ezpz

 

[KingJames]

I have been having trouble with Luigi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tim7eX5a6Sw I made a lot of dumb mistakes but still think its a hard match up.

 

[Ludiloco]

Hey dude, we played round 1 of bracket

Luigi definitely a tough matchup, there were a ton of them at that tourney too


Edit: I find it funny that when it comes to Kirby I'd give us a significant advantage. Kirby can't stand being spaced and if we can force him to take to the air that's our victory.

So Dedede from the Kirby games: Man up dude lol

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I swear, dedede can do everything that kirby can do, but better. Jet hammer is a better version of hammer flip, dedede's inhale is much better than kirby's, except it can't copy abilities, but when kirby faces dedede the copy aspect is basically useless, dedede can recover just as well as kirby, and is the heaviest character in the game, while kirby is one of the lightest! Plus, we have gordos! he only has his final cutter blade.

Also, I feel that dedede's overall best matchup is little mac, just because it is WAY too easy to beat him buy just sucking him up, and spitting him off the stage. He has almost no options against that strategy.

 

[Ludiloco]

Dedede is the third heaviest. Behind dk and bowser.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Really? On smashpedia it says that king dedede is the heaviest:
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight
Does this need to be revised?

 

[Lavani]

Yeah, that list is very wrong. This is accurate.

 

[Kofu]

Really? On smashpedia it says that king dedede is the heaviest:
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight
Does this need to be revised?

The list measured vertical launch resistance, at which Dedede is the best and Falcon/Ganondorf are tied (I tested this, they really are). Unfortunately moves don't only send people vertically.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

@ Kofu Wait, characters have vertical launch resistance unrelated to how heavy they are? That's the first time I've heard of anything like that.

 

[Lavani]

Characters have weight (affects general launch resistance), and they have gravity (affects vertical launch resistance).

So while Dedede's the third heaviest character, he's the "heaviest" when it comes to vertical KOs.

 

[atomicblast360]

Honestly, I felt the same way you did at first, but then I battled a guy named "Shadow" who has never made me feel more helpless in my life. He was canceling his spindashes left and right, so I couldn't anticipate any of his moves. It's the only non-projectile character I struggle against. Granted, seemingly 80% of the cast have access to projectiles.

The Sonic match up is almost impossible for me, spindash cancelled, his quick grabs, the fact spindash reflects gordo's, very annoying match up, I also feel pretty helpless with it, you're not alone lol.

 

[atomicblast360]

I have been having trouble with Luigi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tim7eX5a6Sw I made a lot of dumb mistakes but still think its a hard match up.

You have a very good Dedede! You did make some mistakes but it's overall much better than my Dedede, my Dedede is eh, but I'm still learning stuff!

Also Yes Luigi is an extremely hard match up, for me at least

 

[AlextheTwin]

I have been having trouble with Luigi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tim7eX5a6Sw I made a lot of dumb mistakes but still think its a hard match up.

I'm no expert DDD player or anything but it looks like you played a bit too risky and aggressive. You were punished several times when you went for dash attacks and forward smashes. I'd probably play that guy a bit more passively.

I think Luigi is a slightly losing matchup for DDD...as is most anyone with a projectile that can reflect gordos.

 

[slavoslav]

I think Luigi is a slightly

A good Luigi player can get +80% on Dedede off a single down throw.
It's absolutely bonkers.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Thoughts on the D3-G&W MU? I feel as though D3 generally does well, as his disjoints are bigger and he kills much faster. That being said, G&W has some really nasty juggles on D3, so you really need to work to keep him out. That and G&W's mobility are really the only two problems in the MU, and D3 has a lot of other things in his favor, so I'd give him the edge overall.

 

[toadster101]

Thoughts on the D3-G&W MU? I feel as though D3 generally does well, as his disjoints are bigger and he kills much faster. That being said, G&W has some really nasty juggles on D3, so you really need to work to keep him out. That and G&W's mobility are really the only two problems in the MU, and D3 has a lot of other things in his favor, so I'd give him the edge overall.

Mr. Game & Watch loses, hands down. He can't approach at all, nor can he lure Dedede into approaching.

The Mario Bros. are both bonkers. I find myself struggling against Luigi more, however.

 

[AlextheTwin]

Thoughts on the D3-G&W MU? I feel as though D3 generally does well, as his disjoints are bigger and he kills much faster. That being said, G&W has some really nasty juggles on D3, so you really need to work to keep him out. That and G&W's mobility are really the only two problems in the MU, and D3 has a lot of other things in his favor, so I'd give him the edge overall.

I've never had a problem against G&W. He has such poor range that it's easy to space him, even with his speed. Got to be careful with him reflect gordos with frying pan though.

 

[AlextheTwin]

A good Luigi player can get +80% on Dedede off a single down throw.
It's absolutely bonkers.

Maybe I just haven't played a good luigi yet then.