General idea about Luigi KOs.

[CR4SH]

Alright, so luigi has a smorgasboard of KO options. They all seem to work at completely different %, and get easier to land as they go. So, what happens if you make it a point to keep in mind what your KO options: are now, and are going to be say 35% from now?

In my mind, nair is possibly the most reliable go-to option to take out an opponent. It works from any angle, and fresh, kos most of the cast at 120ish.

Is there a reasonable way to organize a match to make sure your KO options are fresh as they become available? My general idea is sort of, almost a structure approach to damage your opponent and be able to KO any time your opponent leaves themself open from 50% on.

So, in effect, the entire luigi game beyond combo %s becomes a wait and punish affair.

Is there a way to, sort of abuse the stale moves system to manufacture a perfect game. Alright, I have to write a physics paper, but I'm going to come back, do some listing and a bit of calculation to see if I can make a list of moves you shouldn't use at specific percentages. The biggest trouble will be keeping it unpredictable.

 

[whopper_no_onion]

does the Nair have some kind of sweetspot? It doesn't always seem to kill, and when it does, there seems to be more knockback.

 

[ALiAsVee]

does the Nair have some kind of sweetspot? It doesn't always seem to kill, and when it does, there seems to be more knockback.

Nair has a lot more damage and knockback potential during the first few frames you use it, after that its considerable weaker.

 

[elheber]

If you Short Hop an Aerial Attack, an nAir on the way down will usually connect with the Sweet Frames. You could even Short Hop two fAirs and then one nAir just before you land, if you're playing with a Shield Grabber. That usually gets them.

 

[whopper_no_onion]

Nair has a lot more damage and knockback potential during the first few frames you use it, after that its considerable weaker.

so if the very first frame hits, it does 20 dmg instead, right? that's the percent i got by accident a few times.

 

[PolMex23]

Nair kills usually happen after your first death, for it wouldn't be fresh your first stock (unless you got completely destroyed) for the combo setups.

Personally, I believe in a few years, the perfect Luigi will play a passive aggressive game luring there opponents into a situation where a perfect shield up-B will happen if the perfect shield is executed.

Than, the spike is the next killer. Luigi spikes are really harsh.

Up-angled Fsmash...The wonderful(our own broken) up-Smash.

The up-tilt if your opponent has lived for to long...

Sweet spotted boot tip bAIR....

And than the fresh back throw....

 

[CR4SH]

Isn't it reasonable though, to refrain from nairing after low% but before 120 and have it refreshed by the usual fashion? I'm pretty sure that the refresh table limit is 9 moves. So leaving out nair from 60ish%, maybe substituting uair, ought to refresh it. I mean, of course there are situations that just call for a nair (combo escapes come to mind), but its more the general idea I'm looking at.

Figure out what% is generally 8 or 9 landed attacks before their lowest killing %. If you could be fairly structured in your gameplay I think you could pull it off. If you keep your eye on their damage, and know exactly what ko's them, and have your options fresh. Well, it seems that could make luigi the best punisher in the game. That is, assuming that this moveset limitation doesn't completely ruin your game

 

[elheber]

PolMex, let's not forget a charged Hyphen Smash at around 90% or more. That thing catches people off guard. Ending a combo with a Green Missile also gives you that 1/8 chance of instakilling at around 60% or more, so that's another kill move.

Here's a question:

Does the Luigi Cyclone only take up one slot of the stale move queue, or six? Does the Tripple Jab count as one stale move, or three? Because it could be a loophole to hit them with a full Luigi Cyclone and then Tripple Jab to refresh our Stale Moves.

 

[Neb]

I dunno how reliable this could be.
But fireball, and your grab pummel both do good in refreshing.

 

[hippiedude92]

A good player knows which KO move is fresh. I usually use my Dsmash and sometimes Upsmash on lower %s so I keep a Fsmash pretty fresh. I dont usually shoryuken unless their nubsz.

 

[British Geezer]

I find, at least in Brawl, that it's relatively easy with Luigi to KO someone with the C-stick moves. I love doing that.

 

[ALiAsVee]

A good player knows which KO move is fresh. I usually use my Dsmash and sometimes Upsmash on lower %s so I keep a Fsmash pretty fresh. I dont usually shoryuken unless their nubsz.

Same, dsmash is almost always to rack up damage, and its never a reliable killer for me because of that. Same with upsmash. Compared to the fsmash, they don't have as much KO potential anyway.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm a big nair user, I abuse how much priority it has. I throw it out every chance I get, so I rarely kill with a nair unless I just died.

I love bthrow, I always keep it fresh until higher percentages, I substitute up and down throws below 100%. Even if the bthrow doesn't kill, you are set up perfectly for edge guarding. I don't know about you guys, but I play a really agressive off stage game. Especially against characters with average recoveries, I think Luigi's gimp game is great.

I actually kill a lot with upsmash, I use it in place of dsmash for rollers because of the hitbox behind the head.

The fsmash is always fresh for me because I never really find chances to use it. The range on it is pretty bad, so i'm usually only connecting with it out of shield.

 

[hippiedude92]

I'm a big nair user, I abuse how much priority it has. I throw it out every chance I get, so I rarely kill with a nair unless I just died.

I love bthrow, I always keep it fresh until higher percentages, I substitute up and down throws below 100%. Even if the bthrow doesn't kill, you are set up perfectly for edge guarding. I don't know about you guys, but I play a really agressive off stage game. Especially against characters with average recoveries, I think Luigi's gimp game is great.

I actually kill a lot with upsmash, I use it in place of dsmash for rollers because of the hitbox behind the head.

The fsmash is always fresh for me because I never really find chances to use it. The range on it is pretty bad, so i'm usually only connecting with it out of shield.

I know what you mean. But some don't know how Luigi's gimp game drifts really. When I'm fighting others with multiple jumps (kirby,MK etc), I go like super aggressive, or defensive with mindgames espically on DDD. Forcing them use their jumps and landing a bair stage spike is too sexy.

Im more of a stage spiker really lol

Also on upangled Fsmash it's faster just fyi if anyone didn't know. I love Fsmash because of how fast it is. People get freaked out on how fast it is. It can actually punish spotdodgers/rollers. You basically fit a Fsmash front and behind lol

 

[kigbariom]

Really easy KO is once opponent is 115%+, just down throw then nair

 

[TreK]

Meh, I just thinked of that a week ago. I mainly kill with bairs, nairs and usmash, so I spam them at low to mid %s, then i choose one and I continue spamming the two others to refresh the chosen one. When the opp starts to have high %s, i just have to use it again then boom ^.^
Add to it the fsmash, dsmash and up b that i almost never use so i can use them for surprise kills.
Pummels refresh quickly, and since you need to refresh at high %s, this is win-win ^.^

 

[CR4SH]

OK, I'm gonna make a mini-project out of this. Expect to see some numbers soon.

 

[elheber]

I usually KO with Hyphen Smashes, bAirs, nAirs, and gimping recoveries. Against slower or bigger characters, I also constantly KO with FJP. I'm no good with fSmash.

My question still stands. Does each full Luigi Cyclone refresh 6 moves in the Stale Move Queue, or just 1?

EDIT: Hmmm, there's a Luigi Q&A where this belongs.

 

[ALiAsVee]

I usually KO with Hyphen Smashes, bAirs, nAirs, and gimping recoveries. Against slower or bigger characters, I also constantly KO with FJP. I'm no good with fSmash.

My question still stands. Does each full Luigi Cyclone refresh 6 moves in the Stale Move Queue, or just 1?

EDIT: Hmmm, there's a Luigi Q&A where this belongs.

I would imagine all 6, but then again, wouldn't characters with flurries recharge their moves almost instantly? That would make fox a lot better than he is lol.

flurry > upsmash > flurry > upsmash

 

[Pompi]

"

I would imagine all 6, but then again, wouldn't characters with flurries recharge their moves almost instantly? That would make fox a lot better than he is lol. "

dude flurry counts as 1 however jabs count as 3 different so yeah it takes up 3 spots cyclone is only one dtilt would help here grabs could help any structured game already?

 

[CR4SH]

"

I would imagine all 6, but then again, wouldn't characters with flurries recharge their moves almost instantly? That would make fox a lot better than he is lol. "

dude flurry counts as 1 however jabs count as 3 different so yeah it takes up 3 spots cyclone is only one dtilt would help here grabs could help any structured game already?

I'm almost certain they're all worth 1. Just like turtle, or zelda usmash, pit forwardB, D3 Uair, etc, etc.

 

[-Mars-]

Fox can just use his blaster to refresh moves, it's one of the best stale move negaters in the game.

As for dthrow to nair, I don't find that that works most of the time because you need the initial strong hit when nair first comes out to kill and opponents can just airdodge, you'd have to predict the airdodge.

 

[CR4SH]

Fox can just use his blaster to refresh moves, it's one of the best stale move negaters in the game.

As for dthrow to nair, I don't find that that works most of the time because you need the initial strong hit when nair first comes out to kill and opponents can just airdodge, you'd have to predict the airdodge.

If you haven't learned to follow airdodges out of luigi dthrow. Play a different character

Anyway, these are kill%s at the middle of BF (**** FD) on mario by luigi. For my own reference mostly.

fjp 50%
Fsmash Up 81%
fsmash 97%
usmash 106%
dsmash 133%
bthrow 135%
nair 119%
utilt 132%
bair by the edge 120%
pretty much the same for bthrow.
Dair, 155%

I'll elaborate later.

On a strange note, dsmash kills about 5% earlier with the backwards hitbox. Also, all of these are without DI.

 

[CR4SH]

OK, double post because I deserve to lol. I tracked 5 separate luigi matches, from 5 separate luigis, most of whom are frequent posters on this board. To get a crossection of what the average % damage was for each landed attack by a luigi. If you want the specific numbers ask me. I'm not going to post them all here because it seems like a waste of space.

The luigis in question were: Polmex, Hippiedude, Loucan, LKing and Boss.

I simply added the total landed attacks for each match, added the total % damage dealt, based on the % when the opponent died (post attack). The quotient yeilded damage per attack. (I counted each individual jab as an attack, as well as each throw, tornados counted as 1. Also, non-sweetspotted upb's also counted, because I think they actually do go on the list with 1%)

1810/188=9.63

For statistical accuracy I threw out the outliers. IMO the outliers are the FJP kills, they throw off the data, especially since you generally don't use them outside of getting a kill. I like it better this way and I think it makes more sense. Also I threw out 30% damage that link did to himself in the boss match.

1630/182=8.96

So the average luigi attack accounts for around 9% damage. You should be able to lower that number by making use of your grab pummels (which only Hippie seemed to do) and by spamming more fireballs (a favorite of luigiking).

 

[CR4SH]

Triple post, because it made it easier to get at my data. Nyah.


fjp 50%
Fsmash Up 81%
fsmash 97%
usmash 106%
dsmash 133%
bthrow 135%
nair 119%
utilt 132%
bair by the edge 120%
pretty much the same for bthrow.
Dair, 155%
Bair from the middle:152% (confident estimate atm)


So the idea is, if you want to make sure your moves are fresh you should refrain from using the following moves from the following %s. This all assumes you've been alive the whole time.

FJP: Who cares.
Fsmash up: 0%
Fsmash: 17% (this means you can use fsmash for the first and killing move on a stock, and they'll both be fresh)
Usmash: 26%
Dsmash: 53%
Bthrow: 56%
Nair: 39%
Utilt: 52%
Bair: 72% for the anywhere kill, 40% for practicality.
Dair:75%

Also I have some extraneous information I'd like to put somewhere. Dsmash is your most damaging quick move, at 16%. Uair is the most damaging aerial at 13% (and the most spammable IMO, especially when platforms are involved).

Pummels are reliable at these numbers in these percentage ranges: A grab can be worth (these|and these) damages with all the pummels, a dthrow and (|a u air degraded)
1 hit: 15-45% (9%|22%)
2hits 45-85% (12%|22-24%)
3hits 85-125% (15%|26-28%)
4hits 125-they should be dead (18%|death)

So, obviously, laying off every possible move isn't practical. at %s from 70-97 you'd be left with ftilt,dtilt,uair,fair, jabs, pummels, tornado and missile to work with. And your options would be fewer at %s anywhere in between 15 and 130.

But, you do now know, for example, if your first hit is a fsmash, It probably will not hurt your ability to kill with the move later. And you have solid numbers for "if I havn't used my Xmove since Ypercent, I can be confident that it's completely fresh again." Essentially, only the moves you've landed after the given %s count.

That all said, I really do think this is solid reason to get used to ftilts, dtilts and pummels. I think, also, that every luigi should put more spam into his game. It gives you options, and options are a good thing.

Next thing I'm going to do is compile a complete kill list (mario, BF, no DI) and try to figure out exactly how stale moves work. I'm thinking, vs mode, empty 2nd controller. Brinstar(?) for its damage w/o move degradation, and free fresheners. If anyone has any ideas on how to make this easier, please let me know.

 

[hippiedude92]

lol im confused, what was the point of all that?

 

[CR4SH]

Basically so I would know (mostly for myself), exactly how stale moves affect luigi's ability to kill. The %s shown are basically a "if you havn't used this move from this %, its fresh" or "you can spam this move to hell and back until here, and it'll be fresh by the time it can kill". I'm a numbers guy, knowing something intuitively doesn't sit as well with me.

 

[hippiedude92]

Ohhs :3 I didn't get the math part either. Probably cause I epicly suck at math xD. But that's kinda kewlz. Which to know is stale, which is fresh and how much it affects it by.

edit: fyi, training mode doesnt have any move decay.

 

[CR4SH]

Ohhs :3 I didn't get the math part either. Probably cause I epicly suck at math xD. But that's kinda kewlz. Which to know is stale, which is fresh and how much it affects it by.

edit: fyi, training mode doesnt have any move decay.

I know, thats why testing move decay is gonna be a *****.

 

[-Mars-]

I know, thats why testing move decay is gonna be a *****.

Just test it against a human in a 50 stock match or something

btw, I know how to follow up dthrow, all I said was that nair can be seen coming and you have to predict the airdodge.

 

[CR4SH]

I really wish it was easier to show intention on the internet.

I know you do, I wasn't trying to insult you. I was just pointing out the obvious/absurd. I thought it was funny that you said what you did, and wanted to have a chuckle with you. Smilies are poor substitutes for actual facial expression.