General ICs Q&A Thread

[Sieguest]

Also what is SDI? is that when you point the c-stick in the direction of the stage when you get hit?

SDI can also be done with the control stick. SDI is literally transporting your character 1 frame's distance by inputting a direction the control stick and/or cstick during the hitlag of a move you've been struck by.

You'll probably need two conditions:

1. Your opponent is bad at SDI - this would be the most important
2. You can walking IB lock

If you can do that, then feel free to run the clock with an IB lock

Actually you could run the clock with an IB lock, hit the opponent with 3 or so IBs, run and grab them as they get up, and then repeat, going in the other direction if needed, that way even with SDI you can get the regrab. Albeit it isn't the best of ways, but it COULD be done.

With that said, playing as ICs makes other people play super gay so the game is already ten times more boring just by you picking ICs. A tactic, such as this one, that runs two minutes off of the clock just makes the game more boring than watching paint dry. There's also the logical downside to running the clock, if worst case scenario happens you're left with way less time to make any sort of comeback.

 

[DeLux]

Well Guest, that was fairly obvious in terms of what I meant to do :\

However, what I said still stands.

If they are good at SDI, 3 IBs are enough to go over half of FD. This is not an exaggeration

Depending on which climber uses which IB, you'd have to cover that distance in the flop/forced getup time. I think it's 40 frames for flop and 30 frames for getup.

You could help negate that distance by learning to walking IB lock. But typically it's safer to just hobble and take the kill.

 

[Sieguest]

Well Guest, that was fairly obvious in terms of what I meant to do :\

Just sayin'. Seemed more like a "Extremely unlikely you'll pull it off" type thing. Had to throw in the optimism.

However, what I said still stands.

If they are good at SDI, 3 IBs are enough to go over half of FD. This is not an exaggeration

Depending on which climber uses which IB, you'd have to cover that distance in the flop/forced getup time. I think it's 40 frames for flop and 30 frames for getup.

You could help negate that distance by learning to walking IB lock. But typically it's safer to just hobble and take the kill.

Or one could just use 2 IBs o.o Though, couldn't you just have Nana fire off the third/fourth IB and go for the regrab behind it since that would (at least I think so) give Popo more time? But yeah, I agree that hobbling would be preferable.

 

[DeLux]

Are 2 IBs considered spamming IBs like the original question asked? I don't think so.

Walking IB lock is your best bet if you REALLY want to IB lock that badly. And then have Nana fire the last IB for maximum frame advantage.

Another factor would be if a player could potentially SDI himself out of IB range for the force flop animation. I'm not sure how to measure or quantify that, but it might be possible based on IB frame data

 

[Sieguest]

Everything the Ice Climbers do is considered spamming (Don't you dare ask why...).

I was thinking the same thing too, (hence "(at least I think so)" in my last post) I'm sure it's possible at a certain distance.

 

[Hylian]

I'm not saying I invented a new chain grab or anything I just want to know if this would work in a real match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_ba7eCKXXI

This was used in 2008 but people stopped using it for a few reasons.

Aside from the reasons listed in the posts above, it's really just more risky. Why do that when you can just grab them again? If you run to catch them you might trip and ruin your infinite. Walking along with them works but it can be hard if they SDI and it can mess up your rhythm.

 

[byron]

This was used in 2008 but people stopped using it for a few reasons.

Aside from the reasons listed in the posts above, it's really just more risky. Why do that when you can just grab them again? If you run to catch them you might trip and ruin your infinite. Walking along with them works but it can be hard if they SDI and it can mess up your rhythm.

I know grabbing is easier but I'm not good a chain grabbing people like snake, dk, ddd, diddy, sonic. That's why I wanted to know if this would work.

 

[B0NK]

Just grab as they get up.... and repeat what you did to start it again.... >.>

If your worry about them shaking out while Nana is in ending lag from her grab (percentage dependent) then either smash hobble, or make her taunt as soon as she lands.

Personally I use the combination of forward throw>forward throw>b-throw hobble>repeat to bring the percentage up higher and faster, to space, and to keep myself in place. =P

Simplest advice, just keep practicing 'til you get good, and to your question, that "CG" in the video is very hard to make work on good players... harder than just normal CGing

 

[Omni]

where the hell is a "how to chaingrab everyone in the game" thread

 

[ch33s3]

where the hell is a "how to chaingrab everyone in the game" thread

We don't need a thread that just says "practice".

 

[B0NK]

where the hell is a "how to chaingrab everyone in the game" thread

...lol >.>

I'll be back in MD/VA next weekend, if you see me at a tourney just ask me to teach you =P

 

[Omni]

I mean a guide that says the most optimum way to CG each character.

 

[DeLux]

Omni, how do you define most optimum?

The current train of though is that it means "easiest to perform". For the most part, that's sort of a feel thing from person to person.

Optimum could mean the least frames to mash. At which point, you would dthrow > dthrow people across the stage.

Optimum could mean the best spacing windows/efficiency. Meaning you would Bthrow > Dthrow everyone.

Optimum could mean best for going up ramps. So now you would be doing fthrow > fthrow.

I think you get the idea...

 

[Sieguest]

I just interpreted it as "Which CG is generally more comfortable/easy for the majority of players to perform on X character?"

 

[Omni]

wait so all characters can be chaingrabbed the same way?

i do mean the most easiest way to cg a character

like best way to chaingrab lights
best way to chaingrab mediums/heavies, etc

but yea what Hospes said

 

[DeLux]

Oh. Whichever one you practice the most would then be the best

But you can do any CG on any character

 

[Omni]

ah i didnt know that.

i heard that some chaingrabs are harder to execute and have smaller timing windows?

like i can chaingrab all the light chars like mk, oli, marth, kirby, etc.

i have a hard time figuring out a good chaingrab for diddy, lucario and i pretty much have no idea which ones to use on the heavies like wario, snake, ddd, etc.

 

[Teh Future]

idk about frame data but 99% of ics use either bthrow>dthrow or bthrow>fthrow on light/med and some combination of dthrow>fthrow across the stage for heavies.

usually i use bthrow>dthrow for lights.

bthrow >fthrow for med (i use this on diddy and lucario).

msot people mess up on heavy characters. use the sound effects of the game and visual cues to help because they are slower so its all timing, none of dat lighting finger bull**** looooooooooool

 

[Teh Future]

you shud play wario tho hes br0ken. i dont think MI needs more ics....

 

[Sieguest]

ah i didnt know that.

i heard that some chaingrabs are harder to execute and have smaller timing windows?

You're correct to an extent. The problem isn't timing so much as it is spacing though. A great example is why so many people have a hard time CGing Snake.

 

[Roller]

you shud play wario tho hes br0ken. i dont think MI needs more ics....

lol, wrong Omni. You're thinking of MI's Omniswell, who actually did play ICs for a while. This is MD/VA Omni.

 

[Omni]

ah i watched Kakera's IC's and he seems to do the b-throw to f-throw setup against mid weights. im assuming that category fits with:

- Lucario
- Diddy
- Toon Link
...?

here's a few more questions:

- i use the b-throw to f-throw setup for these two. sometimes when i press forward Popo just walks and the f-throw doesnt come out. if i press it too hard Popo will dash and the f-throw comes out (dont want Popo to dash). is there a way to effectively f-throw without making Popo dash?

- i normally platform cancel (like SV) with d-air but it seems to have a bit of a delay after it. is there an platform cancel that has the most least amount of delay after the cancel? or are all they all the same

- what do you think are the most 3 most common/useful desync techniques? i saw kakera do this thing where he dashed back then dashed forward with Nana doing an ice block and was like whaaa. how do you do that?

 

[Sieguest]

ah i watched Kakera's IC's and he seems to do the b-throw to f-throw setup against mid weights. im assuming that category fits with:

- Lucario
- Diddy
- Toon Link
...?

Around that area is right.

- i use the b-throw to f-throw setup for these two. sometimes when i press forward Popo just walks and the f-throw doesnt come out. if i press it too hard Popo will dash and the f-throw comes out (dont want Popo to dash). is there a way to effectively f-throw without making Popo dash?

Move the control as if you are trying to make a character walk at full speed. Throw inputs are entered when the control stick reaches a certain distance from the center, so at some the throw will happen.

- i normally platform cancel (like SV) with d-air but it seems to have a bit of a delay after it. is there an platform cancel that has the most least amount of delay after the cancel? or are all they all the same

I'll pull up a post on platform canceling in a bit, but you don't have to use d-air in order to do it. As long as there is an input the game registers as "down" you can plat cancel.

- what do you think are the most 3 most common/useful desync techniques? i saw kakera do this thing where he dashed back then dashed forward with Nana doing an ice block and was like whaaa. how do you do that?

I'm unsure as to most common. As to desyncs that are the most useful it depends on the situation, though preferably you want a desync that has Nana attacking first. (Of course, those are few and far between). The desync thread (though a bit outdated) has a plethora of desyncs that can be used. You can pretty easily pick out the more plausible desyncs from the list.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Omni, hit me up on AIM, and I'll direct you. "endamaster" is my AIM name.

 

[Hylian]

Omni really you should just practice on your own and learn by trial and error. When I was teaching myself how to chaingrab we didn't even know that it was possible to backthrow to nana lol you can really learn all of this on your own. We can't teach you a timing, learn what is easiest for you for every character. It does not matter which way you throw them if you 0-death them everytime, so don't worry as much about the standards and just find what is easiest for you through practice. If you are really curious you should watch videos and just compare because then at least you are seeing things you can do with them as well as finding out how people cg.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

How do I make nana stop commiting suicide?
Thought she enjoyed life...

 

[DeLux]

You main Lucas or some other character instead


But seriously you need to think about why Nana committed suicided.

For example: let's say you dsmash near the ledge while Nana is recovering. You just inputted a desynced Dair for her when she's in the sync range.

About 90% of Nana SD's are the players own fault.

However if it's something stupid like, inputting a synced squall, but tripping with Popo and having Nana fall of a ramp, that's completely different.

 

[FrozenHobo]

You main Lucas or some other character instead


But seriously you need to think about why Nana committed suicided.

For example: let's say you dsmash near the ledge while Nana is recovering. You just inputted a desynced Dair for her when she's in the sync range.

About 90% of Nana SD's are the players own fault.

However if it's something stupid like, inputting a synced squall, but tripping with Popo and having Nana fall of a ramp, that's completely different.

what about doing a dsmash and having nana doo a desynced squall away from me into the other player's smash? is that my fault?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

What if I'm being grabbed. Why the heck does she run away from me.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Ok. Let's talk chaingrabs. Mine suck. I'm trying to get bthrow cg down, but I suck at it. Isn't it different to pull of from character to character?

 

[DeLux]

Ok. Let's talk chaingrabs. Mine suck. I'm trying to get bthrow cg down, but I suck at it. Isn't it different to pull of from character to character?

Wewt, finally redone the Throws. Wow that was so boring. xD

It seems KayLo and I were each half-right about the throws. Two throws are the same for every character (UThrow and FThrow), while the other two differ depending on the thrown character (BThrow and DThrow).

For the throws that differ, the speed depends on the weight1 values found in [thread=210557]this thread[/thread]. I cross-referenced that thread while I was doing the data, and it all checks out.

One thing that stuck out to me was that the FThrow is the same for all characters. This at least explained to me why I was so consistent in "passing back to the right climber with FThrow" when I screwed up. xD

I haven't done the regrab percentages yet. These will mostly be relevant to BThrow and DThrow, both because the timing differs per character, and because they have a mostly upward trajectory after the throw. I think I need a break from the monotony, so I'll be doing those after the rest of the frame data, which I will be doing tonight and will hopefully be much quicker on account of being about 7856326732x less boring.



THROWS

Character - Hitbox / Total / IASA

Up Throw
[Hits non-grabbed opponents]
All Characters - 25 / 53 / 54

Forward Throw
[Hits non-grabbed opponents]
All Characters - 24 / 54 / 50

Back Throw
Bowser - 22 / 57 / 48
Captain Falcon - 19 / 49 / 42
Charizard - 20 / 53 / 44
Diddy Kong - 17 / 43 / 38
Donkey Kong - 21 / 55 / 47
Falco - 15 / 38 / 33
Fox - 15 / 37 / 33
Ganondorf - 20 / 52 / 44
Ice Climbers - 17 / 43 / 37
Ike - 19 / 49 / 42
Ivysaur - 18 / 47 / 40
Jigglypuff - 13 / 32 / 28
King Dedede - 21 / 52 / 45
Kirby - 15 / 36 / 32
Link - 19 / 49 / 42
Lucario - 18 / 47 / 40
Lucas - 17 / 44 / 38
Luigi - 18 / 46 / 39
Mario - 18 / 46 / 40
Marth - 16 / 41 / 35
Meta Knight - 15 / 37 / 32
Mr. Game & Watch - 14 / 35 / 31
Ness - 17 / 44 / 38
Olimar - 15 / 38 / 33
Peach - 17 / 42 / 37
Pikachu - 15 / 37 / 32
Pit - 17 / 44 / 38
R.O.B. - 20 / 50 / 43
Samus - 20 / 50 / 44
Sheik - 16 / 40 / 35
Snake - 21 / 53 / 46
Sonic - 18 / 45 / 39
Squirtle - 14 / 35 / 31
Toon Link - 17 / 43 / 37
Wario - 20 / 50 / 43
Wolf - 19 / 48 / 41
Yoshi - 20 / 50 / 43
Zelda - 16 / 40 / 35
Zero Suit Samus - 15 / 38 / 33

Down Throw
Bowser - 45 / 69 / 60
Captain Falcon - 39 / 60 / 52
Charizard - 41 / 63 / 55
Diddy Kong - 35 / 53 / 47
Donkey Kong - 43 / 66 / 58
Falco - 31 / 47 / 42
Fox - 30 / 46 / 41
Ganondorf - 41 / 63 / 55
Ice Climbers - 35 / 53 / 47
Ike - 39 / 60 / 53
Ivysaur - 37 / 57 / 50
Jigglypuff - 26 / 39 / 35
King Dedede - 42 / 65 / 56
Kirby - 30 / 45 / 40
Link - 39 / 60 / 52
Lucario - 37 / 57 / 50
Lucas - 35 / 54 / 48
Luigi - 36 / 56 / 49
Mario - 37 / 56 / 50
Marth - 33 / 50 / 44
Meta Knight - 30 / 45 / 40
Mr. Game & Watch - 28 / 43 / 38
Ness - 35 / 54 / 48
Olimar - 31 / 47 / 42
Peach - 34 / 52 / 46
Pikachu - 30 / 45 / 40
Pit - 35 / 54 / 48
R.O.B. - 40 / 61 / 53
Samus - 40 / 62 / 54
Sheik - 32 / 49 / 43
Snake - 42 / 65 / 57
Sonic - 36 / 55 / 48
Squirtle - 28 / 43 / 38
Toon Link - 35 / 53 / 47
Wario - 40 / 61 / 54
Wolf - 38 / 58 / 51
Yoshi - 40 / 61 / 54
Zelda - 32 / 49 / 43
Zero Suit Samus - 31 / 47 / 41

Also, read this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290559

I hope this helps

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Someone wanna make a thread with a list of desyncs and how to do them?I only know split stick and I figured out on my own gettin nana on the ledge and doing desynced squall

 

[DeLux]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243922

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Oops.

 

[Sieguest]

And I lol'd.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

xD
is there a difference between a pivot grab and a pivot grab using R and c-stick?

 

[DeLux]

No there isn't (unless you do some weird stuff to Boost Pivot Grab)

 

[Mr. game and watch]

It being a shield grab disent effect it? Hm.
Why am I the only one who asks questions?
Oh yeah cause me and Nana are the only new ics and she lives with frobo.

 

[DeLux]

All grabs are a variation of (shield + attack).

You aren't the only one. Just most people ask slightly more advanced questions for the most part =\

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I just hate the wiki