Ganon's best "bait".

[Ray_Kalm]

​

No, it isn't UAir. Ganon's best bait is a full hopped DAir when using the Y or X (on default controls) as jump.

If you use Y or X to jump a full hopped DAir, you'll be able to preform your double jump, an airdodge, aerial flame choke, and about any aerial before you reach the ground. You can also mix up double jump with aerials and airdodge. What's more is that you can do up to TWO UAirs or BAirs before you land.

How is this good? Well, because, not only can you bait your opponent out of it, you can also perform an airdodge, avoiding any move you can NOT bait to remain safe. To continue, you can aerial flame choke away any shield your opponent puts up - very good against people who love to hide behind their shield. If your opponent trys making contact with you, chances are your opponent will lose in priority, and, not just take around the 20 damage scale, but be put in vulnerable position afterwards (this asumming they don't tech). You can get from kills to massive "guaranteed" damage, all while remaining safe. I even think a infinite second recovery jump is possible out of this.

You're obviously going to play a little guessing game with your opponent, but this provides you with everything necessary to play that guessing game safely. Very essential for Ganon.

 

[thexsunrosered]

omg I said this like 4 mouths ago but everyone laughed, especially about the isjr >.>

 

[@HomE]

Yea... I remember talking to Red several months ago about the ISJR

looks like Red is a little ahead of his time, I still think SH Uair is a better move then Dair.

Ganon's Uair for best Uair in the game?

who's Uair is better then Ganon's?

I also really like the FH Nair -> Nair -> Aerudo

 

[Karcist]

Yea... I remember talking to Red several months ago about the ISJR

looks like Red is a little ahead of his time, I still think SH Uair is a better move then Dair.

Ganon's Uair for best Uair in the game?

who's Uair is better then Ganon's?

I also really like the FH Nair -> Nair -> Aerudo

Maybe Olimar's

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fullhop U-air > Fullhop D-air.

You get way better mixups with fullhop U-air srsly.

Keep in mind, I do fullhop D-air frequently.

Also, D-tilt > D-air.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Fullhop U-air > Fullhop D-air.

You get way better mixups with fullhop U-air srsly.

Keep in mind, I do fullhop D-air frequently.

Also, D-tilt > D-air.

Full hop UAir provides less start-up protection because of it's fast hitbox. It also has much less baiting abilities because it even looks like you have time to input other moves, whereas a full hop DAir does not.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fullhop U-air basically disses nearly every other jump-in tactic in this game (capable of hitting tall characters while they are standing too), so it's actually useful offensively, and I'm pretty sure you would be aware of how many people mistakenly drop shield against it.

D-air also can hit tall characters, but requires more precision due to its crap horizontal range, and plus you may as well have hit them earlier with U-air.

Also people who know my playstyle have learned to run in and U-air after D-air ends, and it's significantly more laggy than U-air, the latter of which is more likely to net me a frame advantage against people who drop shield since I can N-air or B-air immediately after fullhop U-air and hit grounded opponents.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

We're not trying to hit people with the DAir, rather get the options to safely play a bait and trap game with them.

Yes, I'm aware that people normally drop their shield to full hop UAir, but for how long? It may be good enough to hit them at start-up, but that's about it. Full hop UAir is also quite vulnerable when it's shielded.

 

[PhantomX]

Dairs have some of the longest cooldown on shields in this game... so I don't know why you're using that as a point.

You just said the objective isn't to hit them, but to bait them.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yes, and your point? I don't see what you mean.

 

[PhantomX]

You're using upair being unsafe on shield as part of your argument, which I'm telling you is silly.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You're not hitting their shield with full hop DAir.... silly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

But they can just jump out of shield and punish the whiff of D-air really easily, and you're forced to jump to do other moves or aerial Flame Choke which takes too much time.

Harder to do against U-air. Besides, most people playing those few tall characters won't react to fullhop U-air on block correctly.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You're not doing this right in front of them. Space it, it can cover quite a lot of distance. Being forced to jump is what makes this little gimmick so good - your opponent will never expect it (generally speaking).

 

[PK-ow!]

So, in one sentence, it looks to me like Ray is saying

Ganon can be played like Marth, only from the air down instead of Marth's side to his opponent's.​

I mean, if you reorient your reference, Ganon's Uair is kinda like Marth's Nair, and his DAir is kinda like Marth's FAir, and then in a weird way, FAir/BAir are like Marth's DAir/UAir.

Ganon's NAir is pure sex. It makes up for the lag/clumsiness and hitbox-size issues I've despicably glossed over just there. >_> Yeah, treat our NAir/BAir option thing as filling in for Marth's Uair, which is a lot easier to just kinda throw out there.


Curse you Ray, you and your cutting edge Ganon technology. I was feeling kinda lost but now I have to stick out Ganon a while longer. You make him still cool.


(This isn't sarcasm. I noticed I'd probably have to say that.)


I tell ya, if Ganon and the Cap'n could change direction in the air like Sheik or even Marth can, we'd have a very different character. No more telegraphing BAirs, and you could change the timing on your Uair. The mind tingles at the possibilities.

 

[thexsunrosered]

back to opponent: FH Dair -> Retreating Bair -> stationary Uair

not really possible online, but it is really nice offline. ISJR isn't even hard, you just have to hit jump later than you actually think you would. I'll make a vid for you guys if you want

 

[Kishin]

I've always used this as a mix-up but a lot of times my opponent would roll away or something to gain distance and then at that point I was pretty much in a crap situation so I started to use it less and less. TBH I think DA is Ganon's best move. A good, fairly quick punishing move and KO move. At kill percents I like to pull the walk slowly toward opponent then walk away a little and turn around and dash attack mindgame.

 

[thexsunrosered]

I've always used this as a mix-up but a lot of times my opponent would roll away or something to gain distance and then at that point I was pretty much in a crap situation so I started to use it less and less. TBH I think DA is Ganon's best move. A good, fairly quick punishing move and KO move. At kill percents I like to pull the walk slowly toward opponent then walk away a little and turn around and dash attack mindgame.

Dair-> DA shieldbreak mindgame = yes :]

 

[FailX]

I think his side-b is his best move. it´s nearly like snakes dthrow, very tactical =3
btw. with this move he can equate the situation for him when he commits suicide

and...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXZWQ9N2yH0 Oo

 

[Clai]

Full hop UAir provides less start-up protection because of it's fast hitbox. It also has much less baiting abilities because it even looks like you have time to input other moves, whereas a full hop DAir does not.

Considering we're talking about baiting and set-ups more than actually attacking with it, you should probably change the thread title to "Ganon's best bait (or set-up)." When you consider Ganondorf actually attacking his opponent compared to simply baiting with his moves, I'd say Uair is much more valuable than Dair. Uair just has so much versatility when it comes to zoning or gimping, and it's fast enough that your opponent has to anticipate the move instead of being able to shield it on reaction like Dair.

What I like to do is a DJ Fastfall Autocanceled Dair like Snake mains do it with his Nair. Dair is such a great vertical spacer and fastfalling it while autocanceling it makes full use of Ganondorf's great vertical mobility. If you do hit with Dair, being able to fastfall and autocancel makes it easy for you to techchase the opponent even if he techs the Dair.

 

[Swoops]

U-Air is still a much better bait, purely based on how much less vulnerable you are doing it. It's hard to believe a good player would fall for a FH D-Air bait more than once, considering d-air's cooldown time in the air (around 23 frames, and that's only considering the frames after the hitbox ends.) It offers great vertical coverage, but after doing even once, it seems like you're just making yourself a big, clumsy target in the air due to the near-complete lack of horizontal coverage.

You can't react with any attack until the 45th frame, and even then you can't attack in the same jump. You can fastfall after it to try and eliminate any vulnerability, but that's still putting yourself in a bad position.

I think people should be working harder on proper FF b-air spacing though, as it's one of Ganon's only moves that's very close to being completely safe on shields. And with it's downward angle hitbox, it can hit smaller characters with proper spacing. Hard to do it and definitely not has helpful on very small characters like olimar and pika. It might be a decent mix up to pressure overly defensive players. I want to get some frame data on some properly spaced moves though. Stuff like spaced ff f-fairs and max range f-tilts. I want to make ganondorf decent at putting hurt on shields .

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Well, I wasn't necessarily comparing the two moves in terms of "better at hitting". Rather, I was comparing their overall effectiveness for Ganon's metagame, which, as you should know, has lead itself to "bait & trap".

A full hop DAir baits and traps a lot better than anything else in Ganon's arsenal. It provides you both start-up protection and protection if you get put in a bad position during the ending of FHD (full hop DAir). Basically what I mentioned in the OP. What's even more is you can actually get UAir, BAir combos and tech chases if your opponent falls into the trap. ISJR is actually possible out of FHD, and it can help a lot with the "combos".

 

[Swoops]

You have protection on start up...but that's about it. You can't act until frame 45 of the whole "bait," with half of that vulnerability not even having a hitbox with it. Even with the start up protection, it's very limited. It's a completely vertical hitbox, with next to zero horizontal reach. What's to stop any character from just DJing up and hitting you out of your d-air from the side?

You can't use any aerial directly out FHDair, and if you want to DJ u-air, that hitbox doesn't come out until frame 30 after your d-air hitbox has ended, and that's your fastest aerial. You can airdodge, but it doesn't come out until your pretty much right next to the ground in which case you're very vulnerable. You can also DJ airdodge, but that just puts the opponent directly under you usually. In fact, many of your options out of it, and even just the bait itself, the opponent can easily get under you. Ganondorf doesn't like people under him. Despite Ganondorf's manliness, he doesn't like being on top.

 

[@HomE]

Best Uair in the game

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You have protection on start up...but that's about it. You can't act until frame 45 of the whole "bait," with half of that vulnerability not even having a hitbox with it. Even with the start up protection, it's very limited. It's a completely vertical hitbox, with next to zero horizontal reach. What's to stop any character from just DJing up and hitting you out of your d-air from the side?

You can't use any aerial directly out FHDair, and if you want to DJ u-air, that hitbox doesn't come out until frame 30 after your d-air hitbox has ended, and that's your fastest aerial. You can airdodge, but it doesn't come out until your pretty much right next to the ground in which case you're very vulnerable. You can also DJ airdodge, but that just puts the opponent directly under you usually. In fact, many of your options out of it, and even just the bait itself, the opponent can easily get under you. Ganondorf doesn't like people under him. Despite Ganondorf's manliness, he doesn't like being on top.

Well, I do agree with some points you made.

FHD can ultimately be retreated safely against most characters, and players will normally chase after you expecting lag, but since you can DJ out of it, you can avoid most punish attempts and instead punish your opponent. I mean, obviously the situation won't always be the same, but you can mix up and actually "protect" yourself adapting to the present situation.

FHD can be both retreated and used to, I don't want to use the word approach, "move forward". Normally, a good situation to "move forward" with FHD would be when your opponent's shield is up, they'll drop their shield in attempt to punish you, and they'll usually wait till you land to the ground, you can then DJ and quickly punish right before they attempt to punish you. I mean, there's all kinds of situation when you could use this move. In another situation where your opponent might have their shield up after you launch FHD, you can eat it away with aerial choke. Or, retreat with FHD to force A Meta knight to use tornado, then possibly punish with DJ > Aerial Wizard Kick/BAir. These are just some examples.

 

[PhantomX]

I love upair and backair for baiting in the air because they create legitimate frame traps.

On the ground, there really isn't a better bait as Ganondorf than walking around or standing there, tbh.

 

[Superspright]

Yeah, Ganondorf looks like a target all day. Since people underestimate him a lot you can just stand there, and that's bait. lol

 

[Dre89]

What about (with back to opponent) usmash (the bait), to reverse jab/dtilt?

Oviously I'm reffering to it as a one-off mixup.

 

[Superspright]

That's if they don't know the usmash has IASA frames.

 

[BrokenVapor]

Eh. I thought double jumping was great bait cuz it confuses your opponent into thinking you're gonna do something else, but yeah I agree with phantomx, I use U-air all the time, the weak spot with it is a great advantage, usually if they run into it i follow up with sideB.

 

[Superspright]

side-b isn't guaranteed from the tipman. :[

 

[BrokenVapor]

Yeah but they usually dont expect it, that for if i'm approching with my back turned double weak u-tilt to reverse f-smash

 

[Laem]

ganon's best bait is still upsmash. i approach with upsmash aaaaaall dai.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I don't use dair as bait from a Full hop since I've been punished for the lag too often. I only use full hop dair when I'm trying to punish aerial approaches from a Short Hop. Since you can follow up with a aerial gerudo just inches from the ground too, I use that whenever they tech roll the dair away.