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WE FINDING NEW OPTIONS GANONS WATCH THE GANON LAB
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Ganonic Grimoire (Social) - Commiseration and Hierarchy
- Thread starter Vermanubis
- Start date
The safest bet for a good payoff seems to be dash attack after choke. If the opponent's cornered by a ledge I might chain choke, if they have a roll behind Ganon habit then I Fsmash backward, and if I notice a get up attack habit I'll Dair.
D
Deleted member
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLvavWDJuRs
we found it, the jank option on falco
we also found the jank option on marth
we found it, the jank option on falco
we also found the jank option on marth
D
Deleted member
Guest
You don't understand. Its not a read, its an option. If he rolls, he can see what falco is going to do and get a free punish on it anyway being safe on every option. If he rolls inwards, theyre both safe. If he rolls outward after ganon has rolled ganon gets a free ftilt. If he wake up attacks ganon can roll and then powershield ftilt. If he just gets up ganon still gets an ftilt. By just doing this one roll, ganon can get free tilts upon any option.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Also, downsmash worked too out of shield.
I understand; I'm saying there are better options. Someone already made a chart covering them here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-techs-skills-frame-data-and-hitboxes-update-06-13-10.190763/
http://smashboards.com/threads/gano...hitboxes-update-06-13-10.190763/#post-5216073
If Ganon rolls that's 31 frames when he can't do anything. You lose any frame advantage you had. Rolling is never a good option after flame choking.
And Ftilt is not the best option at 13% damage when Ganon can be a step back and Fsmash for 24%, Dair for 23%, Murder Quake (not sure about the %), Dash attack (covers more options most of the cast has) for 15% or choke again. Except for characters like Olimar and Charizard when Ftilt is guaranteed Ganon will have to go for a read to get it and Ftilt is not the highest payoff.
First of all, DLA keeping that Ganon spirit alive! Proud of you, dude.
Secondly, what Zan's proposing is actually pretty creative. Granted it requires tighter timing than most other follow-ups, it's a good way to pigeonhole opponents who're giving no concrete indication as to a rolling habit. You're right, Rizen, in which there're better individual options, but Zan's proposing something that covers multiple options at once. Against characters like Falco or Lucario who get up a frame earlier than any of Ganon's tilts come out, it's a fine alternative to just making hard reads.
Lastly, for the first time... well, ever... I have a local training partner who's good. In my 3-4 years of playing, my practice has always come from WiFi, until about '11, when I stopped WiFi'ing completely, which is when my only practice was from tournaments every few months. He's a former FL smasher by the name of Solo. He played in '10-'11 and is getting back in. He's got a really good Falco, MK, Diddy, D3 and Wario, decent Ike, TL and ZSS and Lucario and uses a few other characters casually. I'm especially hyped that he uses all of those awful MUs, 'cause for once, I'm getting consistent practice against them. I'm feeling very confident in all of them except for the MK one, and I don't think there's any amount of practice of technology that could undermine his unequivocal dominance in that MU.
After a year of no playing though, it's wonderful to see my faculties return. For about a week, I was trying to punish Falco with DAir (he only has about nine moves that he can frametrap the **** out of Ganon with, namely Utilt, BAir, jab, etc.) couldn't work out any flipmans and my timing was way off, in that which I'd sometimes mash to punish, which resulted in spotdodges or other weird things happening instead of what I intended. After two or so weeks now of steady practice, everything's nice and crisp again--maybe even with improvements. Feeling nice and sharp again.
Secondly, what Zan's proposing is actually pretty creative. Granted it requires tighter timing than most other follow-ups, it's a good way to pigeonhole opponents who're giving no concrete indication as to a rolling habit. You're right, Rizen, in which there're better individual options, but Zan's proposing something that covers multiple options at once. Against characters like Falco or Lucario who get up a frame earlier than any of Ganon's tilts come out, it's a fine alternative to just making hard reads.
Lastly, for the first time... well, ever... I have a local training partner who's good. In my 3-4 years of playing, my practice has always come from WiFi, until about '11, when I stopped WiFi'ing completely, which is when my only practice was from tournaments every few months. He's a former FL smasher by the name of Solo. He played in '10-'11 and is getting back in. He's got a really good Falco, MK, Diddy, D3 and Wario, decent Ike, TL and ZSS and Lucario and uses a few other characters casually. I'm especially hyped that he uses all of those awful MUs, 'cause for once, I'm getting consistent practice against them. I'm feeling very confident in all of them except for the MK one, and I don't think there's any amount of practice of technology that could undermine his unequivocal dominance in that MU.
After a year of no playing though, it's wonderful to see my faculties return. For about a week, I was trying to punish Falco with DAir (he only has about nine moves that he can frametrap the **** out of Ganon with, namely Utilt, BAir, jab, etc.) couldn't work out any flipmans and my timing was way off, in that which I'd sometimes mash to punish, which resulted in spotdodges or other weird things happening instead of what I intended. After two or so weeks now of steady practice, everything's nice and crisp again--maybe even with improvements. Feeling nice and sharp again.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Fsmash and dair dont work on falcos wakeup attack. Rolling allows you to pshield his attack and tilt/dsmash. Like verm said, it covers multiple options at one time.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Because dashing takes too long and doesnt cover every option. If we dash, we dont get the coverage of his outer roll. Plus, if they delay it, we are already shielding because we are holding shield after the roll. I dont think you quite understand this.
Yeah, it seems like a bad idea. If Ganon (starting on the right) rolls left and Falco roll dodges right Ganon has no punishes. If Falco get up attacks why not just PS the first hit and not roll? If Falco stands with no attack>jab I'm pretty sure that would punish Ganon's roll. I don't see how adding a 31 frame roll, the last 12 frames being vulnerable, is faster than dashing. I mean dash attack starts frame 10.
Edit, so I've been thinking is this an option to help cover get ups and roll aways? But Ganon doesn't really have many solid options on Falco anyway so there are a lot of holes? Falco's rolls are pretty broken and hard to chase so this has a better chance but lower reward of following up a choke because shielding covers get ups/get up attacks and if Falco rolls instead, Ganon can go from shield>roll>PS... but then why PS to punish a roll
?Is the idea to get stage control and kick Falco offstage by rolling to the other side?
I really don't get it
D
Deleted member
Guest
I really don't know how to explain it so you understand. When Falco attacks from get up, he hits in front of him first. While we can shield that, if we are holding shield we are only covering get up attack. If you roll it, you dodge the first hit and powershield the second hit. That also gives you enough time to do an ftilt/dtilt/dsmash/dash attack(maybe dash attack, not tested, just in frame theory) out of shield. If they get up normally, we still get a free dtilt/ftilt/dsmash before they can react. If they roll inwards, it resets the situation and we are still safe. If they roll outward and we roll as they roll, we get a free turn around ftilt/dtilt/dsmash/jab/etc. This option covers all but 1, where as in other options you would have to get some hard reads. In the video, I was the falco. I tried to hold shield/jab since it has high priority to see if these options worked or not. They do in fact work. Falco is bad against patg-ish moves, and ftilt does just that. We can force him off stage with this option. In the long run, if they do figure this out after 2-3 of it and start rolling inward, that means we can start reading that and get an fsmash. Otherwise, if they delay the getup/roll/attack and we roll, we have 31 frames to see what they are going to do. Enough time to react, and even if it isnt we are still safe. It just makes the scenario better and it confuses the opponent putting them in an awkward position. People are usually expecting the best option, but when they get in that awkward postion they dont know what to do, as Verm explained to me on facebook. This is an example of that @Verm if your still hereYeah, it seems like a bad idea. If Ganon (starting on the right) rolls left and Falco roll dodges right Ganon has no punishes. If Falco get up attacks why not just PS the first hit and not roll? If Falco stands with no attack>jab I'm pretty sure that would punish Ganon's roll. I don't see how adding a 31 frame roll, the last 12 frames being vulnerable, is faster than dashing. I mean dash attack starts frame 10.
Edit, so I've been thinking is this an option to help cover get ups and roll aways? But Ganon doesn't really have many solid options on Falco anyway so there are a lot of holes? Falco's rolls are pretty broken and hard to chase so this has a better chance but lower reward of following up a choke because shielding covers get ups/get up attacks and if Falco rolls instead, Ganon can go from shield>roll>PS... but then why PS to punish a roll
Is the idea to get stage control and kick Falco offstage by rolling to the other side?
I really don't get it
That doesn't make sense^.
They didn't post Falco's frame data for get up stuff so if you have it that might clear things up
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-frame-data.187546/
Ganon's choke has a 9 frame advantage on Falco according to this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/gano...hitboxes-update-06-13-10.190763/#post-5216073
Considering Ganon's fastest ground attack is frame 7 grab and Falco has a frame 2 jab, I'm not seeing how using a 31 frame roll would do any good.
Ganon must start his roll before Falco starts his roll or Ganon has a frame disadvantage. So immediately after choke Ganon must buffer his roll right?
I'm pretty sure Falco's normal get up would end faster than Ganon's roll. Get up stands are usually about 29 frames (at least Peach's is). The data doesn't support Ganon rolling for covering normal stands. I might be wrong because I don't have Falco's get up data but if he stands on frame 29 (and Falco might be faster too) +9 frames that Ganon gets an advantage from choke for 38 frames and Ganon immediately buffers roll for 31 roll frames, he has 7 frames which is barely enough to grab. + 7 frames shield drop lag (or he can OoS grab) for 38 frames, if you're shielding for Falco's get up and he stands normally. Falco can act much faster than Ganon after that. So roll does not work for normal stand ups.
Ganon's roll to turn Ftilt must all be buffered and assumes Falco's roll takes longer than 41 frames (31+10 to Ftilt) (for reference Link's get up back roll takes 41 frames, which is terrible). All these must be buffered on prediction.
It just seems better to read and react with power shield>punish then lose 31 frames rolling. I'll admit Falco has hard options to cover but rolling just seems to waste time.
If Ganon sees Falco rolling can he wizkick him on reaction?
They didn't post Falco's frame data for get up stuff so if you have it that might clear things up
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-frame-data.187546/
Ganon's choke has a 9 frame advantage on Falco according to this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/gano...hitboxes-update-06-13-10.190763/#post-5216073
Considering Ganon's fastest ground attack is frame 7 grab and Falco has a frame 2 jab, I'm not seeing how using a 31 frame roll would do any good.
Ganon must start his roll before Falco starts his roll or Ganon has a frame disadvantage. So immediately after choke Ganon must buffer his roll right?
I'm pretty sure Falco's normal get up would end faster than Ganon's roll. Get up stands are usually about 29 frames (at least Peach's is). The data doesn't support Ganon rolling for covering normal stands. I might be wrong because I don't have Falco's get up data but if he stands on frame 29 (and Falco might be faster too) +9 frames that Ganon gets an advantage from choke for 38 frames and Ganon immediately buffers roll for 31 roll frames, he has 7 frames which is barely enough to grab. + 7 frames shield drop lag (or he can OoS grab) for 38 frames, if you're shielding for Falco's get up and he stands normally. Falco can act much faster than Ganon after that. So roll does not work for normal stand ups.
Ganon's roll to turn Ftilt must all be buffered and assumes Falco's roll takes longer than 41 frames (31+10 to Ftilt) (for reference Link's get up back roll takes 41 frames, which is terrible). All these must be buffered on prediction.
It just seems better to read and react with power shield>punish then lose 31 frames rolling. I'll admit Falco has hard options to cover but rolling just seems to waste time.
If Ganon sees Falco rolling can he wizkick him on reaction?
D
Deleted member
Guest
No, right after your roll if you hold shield you shield falcos wakeup attack, and you have enough time to buffer an attack out of shield before falco can shield or jab. Rolling dodges the first hit of falcos attack and allows you to punish his second attack. And this is a way of allowing you to see what falco is going to do. It gives you 31 frames to see what hes going to do while your covering 3 of his options. It does beat out everything except inward roll. Wizkicking on reaction is hard because its slow and not many people have good reaction time. If we roll inward, and he rolls outward, we have enough time to look at it because we are in the rolling animation and get a reverse ftilt because he doesnt have enough time to shield. You can try this if you want, but we tested every situation.
D
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Guest
When ganon rolls, hes not auto holding shield. While he is rolling we can see what falco is going to do and that alerts whether we have to shield or not. Even if we do shield and we see falco gets up regularly, we have enough time to hit him. So it does cover wake up.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Zelda and Link kept there Twilight appearance in SSB4 which I liked but that means Ganon might too :/
Although Link and especially Zelda do look younger so hopefully Oldmandorf will be faster like in Melee.
http://www.smashbros.com/us/characters/zelda.html
Zelda and Link kept there Twilight appearance in SSB4 which I liked but that means Ganon might too :/
Although Link and especially Zelda do look younger so hopefully Oldmandorf will be faster like in Melee.
http://www.smashbros.com/us/characters/zelda.html
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
That's actually really fascinating. Mad props to our WC Ganons. The beauty of this is the conditioning it'll encourage if you keep doing it: if they delay their getup attack in order to prevent the powershield, you can just down angled Fsmash them INSTEAD of rolling and get a free Fsmash. Or at least Dtilt them because it'll be guaranteed if they delay for any amount of time. And if they roll inwards to beat your roll outwards, just predict the roll inwards and Fsmash behind you. You'll probably catch them with bad DI too.
Basically what this does is, at the very least, gives us a semi-guaranteed Dtilt on Falco, unless they want to risk buffering a getup option and getting punished for it.
Basically what this does is, at the very least, gives us a semi-guaranteed Dtilt on Falco, unless they want to risk buffering a getup option and getting punished for it.
akito555
Smash Rookie
Made a video about the silly option select me and zan found few days ago!
http://youtu.be/NEnEHSjBKdw
http://youtu.be/NEnEHSjBKdw
D
Deleted member
Guest
^ conditioning marth
I have to hand it to you guys, it's absolutely wonderful to see someone trying out new Ganon tech--legit tech at that! I'm not opposed to trying this out for myself. Really terrific find, guys.
I've also gotta commend you, Zan, on taking what I said about decision-making and Nash equilibrium to heart.
I've also gotta commend you, Zan, on taking what I said about decision-making and Nash equilibrium to heart.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
It wasn't me. It was akito555. He was the real mastermind. Hes the one who actually mains ganon and I just support him o.o
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
Good **** guys. Very cool. I can't really test it out myself but I feel like Ganon should have a guaranteed Fsmash after the powershield if you drop the powershield within the first few possible frames.
Also I wonder how many characters this works with. If not Ftilt then maybe Usmash, since it has a lot of IASA frames and I think it should end in time to powershield a lot of getup attacks.
Also I wonder how many characters this works with. If not Ftilt then maybe Usmash, since it has a lot of IASA frames and I think it should end in time to powershield a lot of getup attacks.
akito555
Smash Rookie
Kinda late one this...but Happy New Years fellow Ganons!（・∀・）
Bloodynite
Smash Ace
ALRIGHT SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THE **** HAPPENED AT THE GAUNTLET THIS YEAR!
I HEARD SEVERAL PEOPLE CLEARED IT AND I DEMAND AN EXPLANATION
I HEARD SEVERAL PEOPLE CLEARED IT AND I DEMAND AN EXPLANATION
Well, in terms of sheer ratio, I think it was about the same amount of losses as 2012, but we did like, what, 40+ unique people not including runbacks?
To be honest though, some of those who cleared it got MAAAAAD lucky. I was bodying Seibrik's D3 until he Gordo'd me out of nowhere! I just went the **** in and he just didn't know what to do! He Gordo'd like three of us consecutively. Then this Falco named Iroh/Archer got through, but to be honest, I'm not sure how. He wasn't bad by any means! But he wasn't terribly remarkable, in contrast to someone like V115, who bodied all of us convincingly.
To be honest though, some of those who cleared it got MAAAAAD lucky. I was bodying Seibrik's D3 until he Gordo'd me out of nowhere! I just went the **** in and he just didn't know what to do! He Gordo'd like three of us consecutively. Then this Falco named Iroh/Archer got through, but to be honest, I'm not sure how. He wasn't bad by any means! But he wasn't terribly remarkable, in contrast to someone like V115, who bodied all of us convincingly.
Nemy
群れ
Any Ganon Apex footage? Did DLA go?
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-gauntlet-2014-results-videos.346407/
Will be updating this thread with Ganon Gauntlet videos throughout the week.
As far as singles went, I did pretty horribly. Nothing really to report. Verm and I did some work in doubles though--I have two matches to upload and Verm has some as well.
Will be updating this thread with Ganon Gauntlet videos throughout the week.
As far as singles went, I did pretty horribly. Nothing really to report. Verm and I did some work in doubles though--I have two matches to upload and Verm has some as well.
NinthWonder
Smash Apprentice
How does one join this group? I must say I've become inspired to become a Ganondorf main and it would be great to be among experts to help a newbie like me.
Post here and play Ganon, lol.
NinthWonder
Smash Apprentice
Works for me I guess. Glad to be part of the team.
Bloodynite
Smash Ace
I am still disappointed in both the results and the fact that I didn't show up
Heartstring
Smash Legend
Lol bloody, if you compare victims vs. survivors, it's about as good as last time, if not better.
NinthWonder
Smash Apprentice
I actually have quite a few AiB online tournaments coming up. I'm prepared to get my ass kicked, but hopefully I'll learn from the experience.
Claire Diviner
President
Just keep playing, and in time, you'll get better. A few points to remember:
- Avoid rolling too much, this includes overly relying on rolling to avoid everything. In time, the opponent will catch on quickly and punish you.
- Avoid using the same move over and over. Try to switch up your moves. Of course, Ganon has few viable moves for approach and pressure, but is still doable.
Remember those two points, and you'll be fine for the most part.
NinthWonder
Smash Apprentice
Turns out I had to cancel most of them. I'm involved in theater and the times happened to conflict with me :/
I do still have one on the sixteenth, and I've been getting plenty of practice for it.
I do still have one on the sixteenth, and I've been getting plenty of practice for it.