Ganondorf

[Shadow Huan]

Oh man Black Shadow confirmed!
But wait why is he using a sword and shooting dark energy balls from his palm?

i literally lol'd, that's hilarious

 

[Big-Cat]

Ganondorf swinging around a sword is just weird to me. If Twilight Princess never existed would people still be screaming, "SWORD!" If he has to have a lame weapon then the trident makes more sense.

Wind Waker is the better, often overlooked, choice for moveset inspiration.

Getting off topic, but I had a point to make that apparently wasn't getting through.

Back on topic, if the stance thing doesn't do it for you, what about the EX mode idea I had?
This wouldn't be the first fighting game to use the idea, and I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to implement.
-Method 1("Guilty Gear method"): have a menu pop up when you choose Ganondorf that allows you to pick which moveset you want.
-Method 2("SNK method"): hold down some button(maybe L/R) while picking your character to switch to the alternate moveset.

Guilty Gear method would be easier to figure out than SNK's method. One thing I was thinking was that if they did DLC, they could apply this to Dr. Mario, Young Link, and the current Ganondorf.

 

[Haxeye]

Ocarina of Time's Phantom Ganon uses a trident-like weapon and shoots magic with it.

Anyway, I thought of a way to keep his old moveset while giving him a sword.

Ganondorf (without sword)

Neutral B, Side B and Up B - Same as Brawl.
Down B: Weapon Change - Unseathes his sword, changing the moveset.

Ganondorf (with sword)

Neutral B: Wizard's Foot - Former Down B of swordless Ganon. Functions the same way as before.
Side B: Sword Beam - Does a vertical slash, unleashing a wave of darkness. Would be a medium powered projectile attack.
Up B: Gerudo Uppercut - Does a strong upward slash with his sword. Can also be used for upward recovery.
Down B: Weapon Change - Seathes his sword, changing the moveset.

IIrc that's more of a spear than a trident. I'd rather Ganondorf lose all of his Falcon specials, keep flame choke and his melee smashes, aerials and tilts, give him his trademark volley projectile and let him change stances.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

IIrc that's more of a spear than a trident. I'd rather Ganondorf lose all of his Falcon specials, keep flame choke and his melee smashes, aerials and tilts, give him his trademark volley projectile and let him change stances.

It was suppose to be reminiscent of the trident

Regardless, Zelda (Like many Japanese games) are very liberal with their names and uses of various weapons.

Such as Marth's sword being called Falchion when it clearly isn't.

I'd still like to see him use a trident, or whatever they make it. Would consider making a moveset with the trident

 

[Haxeye]

It was suppose to be reminiscent of the trident

Regardless, Zelda (Like many Japanese games) are very liberal with their names and uses of various weapons.

Such as Marth's sword being called Falchion when it clearly isn't.

I'd still like to see him use a trident, or whatever they make it. Would consider making a moveset with the trident

I honestly don't care about which weapon he gets however the trident hasn't been relevant in awhile and realistically how much differently would it be utilised in smash than a sword? If anything it's lack of an edge would make it more limited than a sword.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I honestly don't care about which weapon he gets however the trident hasn't been relevant in awhile and realistically how much differently would it be utilised in smash than a sword? If anything it's lack of an edge would make it more limited than a sword.

It would have a larger range than a sword, for one.

Also, Ganon's trident HAS always had a bladed edge, and he HAS used it for slashing attacks

 

[Haxeye]

Hmm works with me then.

 

[Bowserlick]

Wind Waker is the better, often overlooked, choice for moveset inspiration.

I disagree. The Wind Waker end battle is one of my favorite and I do enjoy the mature, respectful Ganondorf.

However, Ganondorf is foremost described as the embodiment of the triforce of power. In most of his games, he is ruthless and employs strength to overwhelm his opponent. I think a big sword or perhaps trident are better ways to convey this then his more technique-based strategy with dual swords.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Guilty Gear method would be easier to figure out than SNK's method. One thing I was thinking was that if they did DLC, they could apply this to Dr. Mario, Young Link, and the current Ganondorf.

Typically, most "SNK method" games will have some kind of indication on the title screen as to which mode you've selected(I assume that was your problem with the SNK method). SNK method also tended to be a little more common, and thus would be more familiar to some, but EX modes in general are something of a rarity nowadays.

Speaking of Doc, that thread is where I first posted the idea. Really, an EX mode system for characters could solve a lot of issues with "clone" characters.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Up B: Gerudo Uppercut - Does a strong upward slash with his sword. Can also be used for upward recovery.

This seems like it would be a bit like Ike's or Kirby's... which aren't too good.

Ganondorf would have an amazing recovery if it had a longer reach because it goes at an angle (up and to the side diagonally).

If he has a sword, he should have some sort of downward slash (that also swipes enemies downward if too close) that uses dark magical powers to propel him in a single upwards/diagonal/sideways (whichever upward way you angle it at) direction that also slashes again at the end of the animation as an attack if he comes into contact with another (like Dark Dive) that enables him to up-B again.

Or, what I prefer, is he swipes the sword upwards and dark magical power comes out of the sword and travels outwards quite a bit and pulls Ganondorf towards that direction.
A bit like Olimar's, except not as quick and he isn't as restricted to where and when he can use it to get a boost.

Either option aside, both his sword and non-sword movesets (if he has the option) should be capable of the same recovery distances. Also, no second recovery after down-b (I'd rather have his taunt swap movesets as it eliminates recovery/down-B spam abuse).

Also, a developer in Brawl said, about Ganondorf, "His Warlock Punch is so strong that there is nothing that it cannot obliterate."

If he keeps his Warlock Punch, it should be able to destroy a shield (leave the opponent stunned). It only takes about 65% of the shield away and the lag afterwards means they literally just stand there, shield (and wait) and attack you during the delay.

If they're stupid and arrogant to shield during the Huuuaaarrrrrrrr (pause) Punch, let them suffer the consequences, just like people who suffer through Lucas's down-smash.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Playing as Ganondorf earlier in Brawl, he has terrible landing - with anything.

Simply landing after a double jump renders him vulnerable for a few seconds because he f**king bends his knees and has to stand up again.
If his Dark Dive (up-B recovery) is used as he goes above the ledge, he slowly floats onto the stage in a position where he can't attack or even air dodge. Then he does the slow, vulnerable landing.

Big change needs to be made there.

 

[Heartstring]

Playing as Ganondorf earlier in Brawl, he has terrible landing - with anything.

Simply landing after a double jump renders him vulnerable for a few seconds because he f**king bends his knees and has to stand up again.
If his Dark Dive (up-B recovery) is used as he goes above the ledge, he slowly floats onto the stage in a position where he can't attack or even air dodge. Then he does the slow, vulnerable landing.

Big change needs to be made there.

actually, the landing lag from simply just landing (with the whole knee bending animation) only happens if he grabs the ledge with up-B/side-B Which is a glitch in the programming, a lot of characters suffer from it (marth, falco, falcon, kirby, etcetc)

 

[GetBentSaggy]

actually, the landing lag from simply just landing (with the whole knee bending animation) only happens if he grabs the ledge with up-B/side-B Which is a glitch in the programming, a lot of characters suffer from it (marth, falco, falcon, kirby, etcetc)

I'm talking about falling down and landing on the solid ground/floor of the stage, not the edge.
It's not really a lag, but a slow frame animation that ends his landing.
All characters have an animation at the end of their landing, Ganondorf's is just slow as f***.


Edit: By the way, is Kage the Warrior a member on these forums? I'd love to see what he'd have to say about any changes Ganondorf should get in SSB4.

 

[Jockmaster]

Yeah Kage is here, he would probably just want Ganon to be like Melee Ganon lol

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Yeah Kage is here, he would probably just want Ganon to be like Melee Ganon lol

Pfft, I could school him.

Unless he challenges me, I'm conveniently busy whenever he wants to prove he's better than me.

 

[Heartstring]

I'm talking about falling down and landing on the solid ground/floor of the stage, not the edge.
It's not really a lag, but a slow frame animation that ends his landing.
All characters have an animation at the end of their landing, Ganondorf's is just slow as f***.


Edit: By the way, is Kage the Warrior a member on these forums? I'd love to see what he'd have to say about any changes Ganondorf should get in SSB4.

yeah, so am i. The slow down animation youre talking about only happens when the requirement im talking about is forfilled.
All characters (except super heavies, which ganon is not) have the same amount of simple landing lag

 

[Big-Cat]

I disagree. The Wind Waker end battle is one of my favorite and I do enjoy the mature, respectful Ganondorf.

However, Ganondorf is foremost described as the embodiment of the triforce of power. In most of his games, he is ruthless and employs strength to overwhelm his opponent. I think a big sword or perhaps trident are better ways to convey this then his more technique-based strategy with dual swords.

Personally, I think the twin swords would be more appropriate. What you're suggesting is that Ganondorf should be a brute. While this would be a way to represent the pig demon incarnation from games past, but I don't think it paints a complete depiction. To me, Ganondorf is not completely ruthless. Ruthless, to me, gives me the image of Balrog (Boxer) from Street Fighter - a total brainless brute- and I don't think that suits the King of Thieves.

I think combining power and technique would be very suiting for Ganondorf as it displays the cunning aspect of Ganondorf in the post OoT games. It gives a sense of calculated, deliberate use of extreme power and not just flailing it around.

 

[Claire Diviner]

That is why Ganondorf is king: He's strong and ruthless, but calculating and intelligent. Most primary villains tend to be super intelligent with a hulking minion to act as the brawn. Ganondorf encompasses both attributes while still having minions. I can't think of many villains that have such a strong presence like Ganondorf.

 

[Bowserlick]

Personally, I think the twin swords would be more appropriate. What you're suggesting is that Ganondorf should be a brute. While this would be a way to represent the pig demon incarnation from games past, but I don't think it paints a complete depiction. To me, Ganondorf is not completely ruthless. Ruthless, to me, gives me the image of Balrog (Boxer) from Street Fighter - a total brainless brute- and I don't think that suits the King of Thieves.

I think combining power and technique would be very suiting for Ganondorf as it displays the cunning aspect of Ganondorf in the post OoT games. It gives a sense of calculated, deliberate use of extreme power and not just flailing it around.

Ruthless does not have to imply brainless. Ganondorf is involved in many schemes with the end goal of achieving power.

I think special moves can represent power and guile. His side B Choke Grab already achieves this. His B special can involve his dark sphere of energy which can be a mini-game in itself. Hit the ball with a move to send it back to your opponent. Which each hit, have the ball of energy gain slight homing capabilities as well as needing a stronger move for a ricochet collision. This give Ganondorf a tactic in which his power gives him a lopsided advantage. Perhaps his Up B can give him floating properties where he can navigate in the air. A press of A will cause him to hurl straight down with a fist. If he collides with the ground, he creates a shockwave.

In my eyes, Link demonstrates the Triforce of Courage with his boy-scout knowledge and tool utility. Zelda represents Wisdom with her ability to fight in two distinct-yet-complementary styles. And Ganondorf represents Power with his overwhelming and powerful attacks.

If there is a dual sword-weilding Zelda character, I think it should be Ghirahim.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

He's got the triforce of power for a reason.

 

[Enlong]

I was thinking of what moves he would have if we made him more like his actual in-game incarnations, and this is what I was thinking:

B: Lightning Ball: Ganondorf raises his hand, lighting emits from his palm, and a ball of yellow lighting sits in his hand, which he quickly punches forward. Medium power, very little launching potential outside of 100% or greater damage

Side B: Flame Choke: Because it's too evil and badass to drop.

Down B: Seismic Dive: Ganondorf (Drops to the ground if he's in the air and) punches the ground, emitting a ground-traveling shockwave that deals damage and bounces foes off of the ground. Getting hit directly by his fist causes heavy damage and a larger launch

Up B: Black Hole: Ganondorf takes to the air, cape flapping in the wind, and raises both arms above his head, causing a black-green ball of dark energy to coalesce between his palms as he flies. The longer he charges it, the stronger it becomes. There is a very specific sweet-spot where it's at its strongest, but Ganondorf can continue flying for about a second after that, at the cost of it degrading to a lower level of power by overcharging it. When he releases it, he stops flying, and the ball erupts into a mass of snake-like projectiles that hound his enemies.

Final Smash would either remain the same, or make him become Ganon circa Ocarina, and perhaps be controllable.

 

[Waluigi]

ganondorf had a sword in melee's artwork
He had a sword as a taunt in brawl
He must use it in SSB4!!

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I saw some people state that Sakurai said the reason he kept Ganon similar to Capt Falcon for the most part (and not use his sword) was so as to not alienate the people who were used to the way Ganondorf played in Melee, which I think is BS logic coming from him of all people, but it's probably true, so I wouldn't be surprised if Ganon's still the same low tier bad guy in the next game.

 

[Claire Diviner]

The thing is, Ganondorf wasn't low tier in Melee, so it's possible to keep his playstyle and moveset familiar, while giving him necessary buffs to make him a higher tier character. I say first thing's first: fix that godawful grab range of his. I honestly can't figure out why they'd give him the shortest grab range in the game.

 

[Enlong]

I say we give Ganondorf new moves, and give his old moveset to Black Shadow or something.

 

[Heartstring]

The thing is, Ganondorf wasn't low tier in Melee, so it's possible to keep his playstyle and moveset familiar, while giving him necessary buffs to make him a higher tier character. I say first thing's first: fix that godawful grab range of his. I honestly can't figure out why they'd give him the shortest grab range in the game.

simple, ganon has a rare muscular condition that means he cannot bend his arm at the elbow :B

 

[Claire Diviner]

Yet, he can fully extend his arm for a palm to his opponent's face, or to grab them with his Flame Choke. Actually, speaking of the former, they need to make that move come out more instantly the way it did in Melee, even at the cost of range.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

I will give my opinions on Ganondorf, again.
1. His moveset should not be passed on to another character, that'd be too lazy
2. He is fine the way he is as a C. Falcon clone, just make his comboing, killing power, etc. better
3. Giving him a sword is a good idea, but, working around it would be the hard part
4. My opinion still stands, Ganondorf should be Luigified; giving him his sword in some attacks such as tilts and smashes, while keeping the clone moves for others such as his Special Attacks and aerials.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The thing is, Ganondorf wasn't low tier in Melee, so it's possible to keep his playstyle and moveset familiar, while giving him necessary buffs to make him a higher tier character. I say first thing's first: fix that godawful grab range of his. I honestly can't figure out why they'd give him the shortest grab range in the game.

The reason for why Pikachu had the worst grab range in Melee is understandable. But in Ganondorf's case, he has long arms, so you'd expect him to have a better grab range than what he was given in Brawl.

 

[xxbroken-gloryxx]

Ganondorf really needs a moveset change after his Brawl mishap. Give him a sword or something, or at least anything that would make him completely different from Captain Falcon.

Couldn't agree more. Ganon needs SOMETHING that makes him NOT a clone of Falcon. They aren't even from the same franchise, so why would they be even remotely related moveset wise. He uses a sword in multiple LOZ games so they should at least reference that in his fighting style. (excluding taunts)

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Couldn't agree more. Ganon needs SOMETHING that makes him NOT a clone of Falcon. They aren't even from the same franchise, so why would they be even remotely related moveset wise. He uses a sword in multiple LOZ games so they should at least reference that in his fighting style. (excluding taunts)

Sakurai said that Ganondorf was only added to Melee because he had a similiar body shape to C. Falcon, thus making him a clone of him.

 

[SmashShadow]

Flame choke was the only special I liked.

 

[Venraneld]

I have been disappointed in every game that they have made Ganondorf a Captain Falcon clone. It's so lazy. Don't get me wrong, he's still fun to play as being a beefier Cap'n, but come on. That's not how G'dorf fights in any Zelda game.

I think he should use a combination of his magic fists with a sword. He needs at least one magic projectile. His Up+B could launch him vertically and be held so that he hovers to make him feel like the overlord he is. And his Down+B could be the ground pound he does in Ocarina of Time if Link jumps on the platform he is hovering above. His Flame Choke can stay if they REALLY need it to since it's a pretty sweet move and actually feels like a move he would use.

Honestly though, I think they would use Demise in the next game. Most people don't seem to realize that Demise IS Ganondorf. He is just the very first incarnation of him so he isn't called Ganondorf yet. But if they go with Demise I think his moveset will be completely different than what I would expect them to give Ganondorf even.

 

[Enlong]

Demise is not Ganondorf. If one wants to extrapolate from his final speech, then we can say that Ganondorf's constant conflict with Link is an incarnation of Demise's hatred.

Demise's hatred is a curse, one that dooms those with the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero to conflict with evil beings like Ganondorf, Vaati, and Majora, each time they are reborn.

Demise himself, though? Dead and gone. His corporeal form was utterly annihilated by the Triforce itself, and his mind was sealed into the Master Sword and slowly erased. But his curse, his hatred, persists.

 

[Heartstring]

His Flame Choke can stay if they REALLY need it to since it's a pretty sweet move and actually feels like a move he would use.

It IS a move he's used. Twilight princess in a cutscene

 

[Venraneld]

Demise is not Ganondorf. If one wants to extrapolate from his final speech, then we can say that Ganondorf's constant conflict with Link is an incarnation of Demise's hatred.

Demise's hatred is a curse, one that dooms those with the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero to conflict with evil beings like Ganondorf, Vaati, and Majora, each time they are reborn.

Demise himself, though? Dead and gone. His corporeal form was utterly annihilated by the Triforce itself, and his mind was sealed into the Master Sword and slowly erased. But his curse, his hatred, persists.

That's what I meant. It's the essence of Demise that is recreated into Ganondorf in each iteration. That's not the same person that is Ganondorf in other games. Just like it's not actually the same Link, but the essence of the Hero is carried on to another person in another life time.

So I agree with your point except for where you added Vaati and Majora into it. His physical similarities to Ganondorf I think link him to that character more than the others and Ganon/Ganondorf is the only one who has returned multiple times to haunt the Links and Zeldas.

 

[Enlong]

Ganondorf looks similar because he tends to be sealed away and then break free, rather than dying and being reincarnated, the way Zelda and Link do.

And when he does die, he has a tendency to get directly resurrected by his minions.

With the exception of the Ganondorf that takes the Trident (and gets possessed by the spirit of the previous Dark King Ganon?) in Four Swords Adventures, Ganondorf/Ganon tends to be the same man from the Ocarina of Time era. That man is an expert at cheating death.

I wasn't saying that Demise's essence becomes the evil man that Link faces, more that his curse is more... vague, I suppose, than that. Link's eternal conflict throughout his reincarnations is Demise's curse, of sorts. Ganondorf is just one of the evil beings who Link is driven to fight because of it.

That's my interpretation of "incarnation of my hatred", anyway. It's not Ganondorf, but the endless conflict with Ganondorf, that is the form of the curse. And that's why I also brought up Skull Kid and Vaati; other evil beings that Link must fight.

edit: Wait a sec, Ganondorf isn't the only one who's plagued Link multiple times. Vaati had the go around three times before he was finally destroyed.

 

[SmashShadow]

Skull kid isn't technically evil though...

 

[Enlong]

Guess I should have said Majora.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Not important, but I remember that the Nintendo Power Player's Guide had a name for every attack that the characters had and used in Melee. Here is Ganondorf's.

Weak Attacks

1: Thunder Punch

Strong Attacks

Upward: Volcano Kick
Forward: Armor Crusher
Downward: Sweeping Snake

SMASH ATTACKS:

Upward: Tornado Kick
Forward: Nightmare Lunge
Downward: Leg Whip

Dash Attack: Iron Shoulder

Aerial Attacks:

Center: Swooping Keese
Front: Skull Crusher
Back: Hidden Gauntlet
Up: Vulture Kick
Down: Thunder Drop

Special Attacks

Standard B: Warlock Punch
Foward B: Gerudo Dragon
Upward B: Dark Dive
Downward B: Wizard's Foot

Grapples and Throw Downs

Pummel: Armored Knee
Front: Gut Punch
Back: Blind Mule Kick
Up: Jaw Breaker
Down: Dirt Nap

Now, to move forward.