Ganondorf

[Frostwraith]

Ganondorf swinging around a sword is just weird to me. If Twilight Princess never existed would people still be screaming, "SWORD!" If he has to have a lame weapon then the trident makes more sense.

I think that isn't just the sword. In Melee, Ganon had a sword in one of his victory poses, which was taken from the Zelda Spaceworld Demo. And they could have made a moveset out of it, instead of making him a slower, heavier and stronger clone of Captain Falcon, and THAT is where the problem is.

People are upset because Ganondorf has a moveset blantantly based on Captain Falcon, when he could have his own.

 

[MelMoe]

Hmph, why did they have to make him a Falcon clone, it disgusts me. He will forever have an resemblence to Captain Falcon. The other LoZ characters were based off OoT why couldn't he. Captain Falcondorf. Characters that boost the roster are always a disappointment.

 

[Frostwraith]

Hmph, why did they have to make him a Falcon clone, it disgusts me. He will forever have an resemblence to Captain Falcon. The other LoZ characters were based off OoT why couldn't he. Captain Falcondorf. Characters that boost the roster are always a disappointment.

they could finally change him this time... we never know, but on the other side, it would be a drastic change in his moveset... well, I think only time will tell.

 

[Haxeye]

Regardless of it only being two times, Ganondorf has utilized a sword or swords in all of his most recent appearances (Wind Waker, TP) and even OoT to some extent if you count his Ganon form. With Nintendo's emphases on more interactive play leading to these one on one sword fights this trend is likely to continue. And throughout Zelda Ganondorf has always been portrayed as not just a wizard but a weapon user as well. Lastly while the Trident would be cool, it is also essentially an abandoned plot point that has never even appeared in a flagship Zelda title on any console since N64. SS would've been the perfect time to reincorporate it but instead Demise (who is Ganondorf essentially) used a sword.

The best way to do Ganondorf justice is to combine his sorcery, physical power AND sword use into one moveset as that's reipresentative of modern Ganondorf.

 

[MelMoe]

I suppose ur right. As long as he is true to his character in SSB4, I'll be happy. Smash Ganondorf may be luigified, but he is still so awkward.

 

[Frostwraith]

Regardless of it only being two times, Ganondorf has utilized a sword or swords in all of his most recent appearances (Wind Waker, TP) and even OoT to some extent if you count his Ganon form. With Nintendo's emphases on more interactive play leading to these one on one sword fights this trend is likely to continue. And throughout Zelda Ganondorf has always been portrayed as not just a wizard but a weapon user as well. Lastly while the Trident would be cool, it is also essentially an abandoned plot point that has never even appeared in a flagship Zelda title on any console since N64. SS would've been the perfect time to reincorporate it but instead Demise (who is Ganondorf essentially) used a sword.

The best way to do Ganondorf justice is to combine his sorcery, physical power AND sword use into one moveset as that's reipresentative of modern Ganondorf.

^ this. they could combine all of Ganon's fighting capabilities in his Smash appearence.

 

[CalvinWars]

Something no one has suggested yet was him being able to take out and put his sword away. The reason Sakurai didn't give him a new moveset in Brawl is because he doesn't want to alienate old Ganondorf players. Simply making Ganondorf original and Black Shadow a clone would only cover up the problem instead of fixing it. Giving Ganondorf the ability to take out and sheathe his sword would please both fans who want an original moveset and old Ganondorf players. Also it would be the first time a character had the ability to change his moveset without transformation. It could be performed in an animation similar to the taunt where Ganondorf unsheathes and sheathes his sword.

Also, speaking of taunts, another thing I haven't seen suggested often is the ability to switch forms using a taunt button. You would think having a down special for Zelda, Poke Trainer's pokemon, and hopefully Gdorf would be more important than a third taunt.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, Samus can use the taunt buttons to transform into ZSS, so if they can do that with her, then surely giving Ganondorf the ability to draw his sword and use it by utilizing the taunt button(s) isn't a stretch.

 

[Jaedrik]

I would love to see him with a trident, I mean, seeing all i've learned about polearms recently in my combat training, they're pretty cool.

 

[Heartstring]

I support this idea. While theyre at it make the taunt button alternate between zelda and sheik for them and give them new down-B...perhaps give zelda a good attack for once :B

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Some general bad things about Ganondorf or nerfs:

• Just generally slow. Slow moving, slow moves, slow dodging, slow jumping.
• Bad horizontal recovery.
• Isn't as durable as he should be compared to his size/power.
• His size gives him hitboxes that are even bigger than the regularly large hitboxes.
• He only has 1 multiple-hitting move (d-smash).
• Small jumps.
• Slow moves (long frame animations).
• Overall weaker than in Melee.
• Wizard's Foot from mid-air doesn't enable another mid-air jump (recovery technique).
• Short as f*** grab.

Changes that should be made are, I think:

• Make him faster than Bowser, or as fast as he was in Melee.
• Noticeably higher jumps.
• Buff his strength and durability. He shouldn't be an easy KO at 110% while Luigi is floating around carelessly at 160%.
• His arm should extend far outwards (like he's reaching out to choke) when he goes for a Z-grab.
• More multiple-hitting moves. Change his Nair to be a 360 kick, perhaps. Or his Uair is the same as his ground recovery (helicopter kick, which hits both above, left and right sides of him).
• Faster A attacks with longer reach on his 'spartan kick' and his punch/push neutral A attack.
• Up-B recovery does more damage on contact, like in Melee, or it does slight lasting damage like the flower item.

I just think that Ganondorf is (meant to be) strong enough to the point he doesn't need the sword. He's raw power and is able to have a long reach with his arms or legs. One of his biggest vices is, as shown by his animations, his arms are so close in - his grabs, his Fair (and even Bair), his punch. His elbow is bent which would take back quite a lot of distance.
His down A is really the only attack that uses his true reach.

The fact that he has the sword, but doesn't use it (unless taunting) is one of the biggest "In your face!" characteristics of any of the characters. Extending the reach of his attacks will settle the need for him to have the sword, although I wouldn't oppose the inclusion of the sword.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'd rather they just change Ganondorf to something that represents his LOZ game counterpart than continue the slow divergence from his melee clone self

Edit: Also Trident. Yes.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly, I don't Ganondorf having a weapon as a primary attacking method is the way to go. I think the sword should be used, but Ganondorf's physical attacking (with his size, power, and athletic abilities) should still be used. Actually, I think it would be sweet if Ganondorf used more dark magic attacks, punches, and kicks, that had effects, knock back, and stun on foes only "(dark) magic" can have upon them.

Give Ganondorf new physical attacks with magic, a few more extra brand new magic attacks, and a few attacks with a sword, and you got yourself a redefined BAMF!

Also, can we all agree Brawl Ganondorf was an abomination, and nearly everything about Brawl Ganondorf should never return=???

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Ganondorf only has a few techniques or 'combos'.

Some frequent plays I make are: side-B then tap down-A attack (launches them into the air). Allows me to tap side-A attack for a spartan kick and I can either Fair and Uair. That's the closest effective and consistently working combo I can get with Ganondorf that I can plan.
A good technique, to eliminate someone, is to knock them off the edge (slightly works best), jump off once, Dair them, jump again (and up-B recover if you need to, which you likely will) or to just sprint off the edge, Uair someone who is a bit below and trying to jump up (knocks them down, away or spikes them against the level) and then jump up (and Uair if you need to).

Other than that, most of Ganondorf's plays are spontaneous - even from tournaments and professional plays, even a lot of Kage's plays seem to be spur of the moment attacks. He doesn't really have a technique that a lot of people know or can use. His moveset just happens.

 

[Johnknight1]

^^^ If you are referring to Melee Ganondorf, it's that he can hit opponents at many angles and set up combos at them based at the angle if impact.

If you play with Ganondorf enough, you know how to follow up attacks and combos with him.

It may look "spur of the moment," but in a sense, all moves at the top level of play are rehearsed.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

^^^ If you are referring to Melee Ganondorf, it's that he can hit opponents at many angles and set up combos at them based at the angle if impact.

If you play with Ganondorf enough, you know how to follow up attacks and combos with him.

It may look "spur of the moment," but in a sense, all moves at the top level of play are rehearsed.

Other than the Kage thing, I'm talking about Brawl.
Ganondorf is too slow and lacks multiple-hitting moves to really combo at all.

I play with Ganondorf a lot and I know his layout to understand how to follow up attacks, but a lot of people won't adjust to that as easily as they would with someone like Falco or Meta Knight.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

My view of Ganondorf is a character is vastly different from yours, and in mine the trident would fit nicely.

I see the trident as a very powerful weapon, and very heavy that even with Ganondorf's immense strength he physically looks like he has trouble wielding it. But at the same time having the abilities to both tactically plan out his attacks and attack in a berserk rage if the need be

Ganondorf is the huge, powerful monster to oppose Link's quick and resourceful nature.

Of course, Ganondorf's magical attacks shouldn't be taken out, but even in the games when it gets down to it he does rely on his brute strength. Think of his magic more of a means to control the battlefield, such as Ryu spamming Hadoken (LOL). Edit: And I'm not saying he should have a spammable energy wave by that, just something he can use to control the actions of his opponent.

I really feel smash's portrayal of his character up until this point are the complete wrong direction he should be taking

 

[Heartstring]

Some general bad things about Ganondorf or nerfs:

• 
  [*]Just generally slow. Slow moving, slow moves, slow dodging, slow jumping. Ike wants a word
• Bad horizontal recovery. (Agreed)
  [*]Isn't as durable as he should be compared to his size/power. His recovery is bad, but this guy lives forever if your opponent can only land their faster and weaker kill moves, avoid the haymakers and youre golden
  [*]His size gives him hitboxes that are even bigger than the regularly large hitboxes. You mean hurtboxes
  [*]He only has 1 multiple-hitting move (d-smash).I would hardly call dsmash a 'move' and more a 'burden'. But he does have N-air and Air Down-B
• Small jumps.(agreed)
  [*]Slow moves (long frame animations). This is sort of make up by his autocancels (SH d-air) And early IASA (U-smash)
• Overall weaker than in Melee. (He's sorta the same power wise, but has less combo potential which hurts him more than most)
• Wizard's Foot from mid-air doesn't enable another mid-air jump (recovery technique).
• Short as f*** grab. Yeah, this really sucks so much

Changes that should be made are, I think:

• Make him faster than Bowser, or as fast as he was in Melee.
  [*]Noticeably higher jumps. Making them much higher would make the heavy hard hitter image change. Just make it high enough for him to ledgehop onto the stage >.<
  [*]Buff his strength and durability. He shouldn't be an easy KO at 110% while Luigi is floating around carelessly at 160%.That shouldnt be happening, Luigi kills early so its not much of a surprise for ganon to die that early if it was to an fsmash or Up-B. But luigi shouldnt ever live much above 100% to ganon
• His arm should extend far outwards (like he's reaching out to choke) when he goes for a Z-grab. (agreed, bend dat elbow ganon)
  [*]More multiple-hitting moves. Change his Nair to be a 360 kick, perhaps. Or his Uair is the same as his ground recovery (helicopter kick, which hits both above, left and right sides of him). Multi-hit moves aren't really essential to gameplay
• Faster A attacks with longer reach on his 'spartan kick' and his punch/push neutral A attack. Agreed, Jab needs some speed too, like in melee
• Up-B recovery does more damage on contact, like in Melee, or it does slight lasting damage like the flower item. It just needs more hitstun and/or knockback to make it a safe recovery

just edited to what i think

 

[SmashChu]

On changing Ganondorf, I don't think he needs a move revamp. He's had the same moves for the last two games and there is no need to alienate people who use him by throwing away the mold and starting over. Changing moves is fine (and they did that in Brawl). But there is no need to revamp him.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

On changing Ganondorf, I don't think he needs a move revamp. He's had the same moves for the last two games and there is no need to alienate people who use him by throwing away the mold and starting over. Changing moves is fine (and they did that in Brawl). But there is no need to revamp him.

Alienate them all they want for what I care.

It's not like Ganondorf main's from melee liked the changes he had in Brawl anyway. If the character sucks they will be alienated just the same.

I'd rather have a character that represents the character ganondorf, and a luigified version of Captain Falcon isn't even close to how the character is represented in the games.

 

[Haxeye]

On changing Ganondorf, I don't think he needs a move revamp. He's had the same moves for the last two games and there is no need to alienate people who use him by throwing away the mold and starting over. Changing moves is fine (and they did that in Brawl). But there is no need to revamp him.

I think it's possible to keep his smash brute strength brawler aspect but keeping him as a nonsensical, lazy falcon clone in terms of his moveset alienates LoZ Ganondorf fans, and to appease these fans was the reason he was included in Smash in the first place. I hate any argument that tries to excuse keeping Ganondorf as a barely luigified clone when there's so much material available in LoZ to make him interesting and unique.

 

[Rayquaza07]

idk if gannon even gonna be in this with demise and skyward sword lul

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

idk if gannon even gonna be in this with demise and skyward sword lul

Ganondorf is a major staple in the LoZ franchise, so I doubt that he'll be ditched.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Ganondorf needs to be Luigified.
He needs to use his sword in some attacks and his C. Falcon-inspired moves in other.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Give him his old Wizard's Foot.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Getting rid of his old moveset would be a slap in the face to all the fans who grew attached to those moves and how they work. It'd be interesting to see if they could implement a stance-switching system to switch between his old moveset and a newer, more LoZ-inspired one. If they could get it working, it would be a nice middle ground between fans who want a new moveset and people attached to his old one. Either that or implement an "EX mode" for him.

 

[Bowserlick]

Giving Ganondorf Captain Falcon's move set was a slap in the face for fans of Ganondorf as he was portrayed in his games.

Giving Ganondorf Captain Falcon's move set once more in the sequel was another slap in the face.

Time for Ganondorf to get his own moves. Hopefully when Sakurai emphasized quality over quantity with characters in this next installment that was a hint that maybe, just maybe Ganondorf will finally get his own move set.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Giving Ganondorf Captain Falcon's move set was a slap in the face for fans of Ganondorf as he was portrayed in his games.

Giving Ganondorf Captain Falcon's move set once more in the sequel was another slap in the face.

Time for Ganondorf to get his own moves. Hopefully when Sakurai emphasized quality over quantity with characters in this next installment that was a hint that maybe, just maybe Ganondorf will finally get his own move set.

I'm assuming you were responding to me. In any case, what you and I said are both true. Ganondorf should have had an original moveset to begin with, but he didn't, and replacing the old clone moveset would likely result in backlash. Hence why I (and several others) have suggested the stance system as a compromise.

 

[Bowserlick]

Stance system could have balancing issues. I would say it is the canon Ganondorf fans' turn on this game. Give them an unique move set, but keep the flavor of a slow yet powerful warlock.

DLC can give the clone fans a Black Shadow character with the old move set if there is enough demand.
That would be my solution.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Stance system could have balancing issues. I would say it is the canon Ganondorf fans' turn on this game. Give them an unique move set, but keep the flavor of a slow yet powerful warlock.

DLC can give the clone fans a Black Shadow character with the old move set if there is enough demand.
That would be my solution.

Go check the Black Shadow thread. Treating Black Shadow as a dump for Ganondorf's old moves would be just as insulting to some of us as making Ganondorf a clone originally was to you.

Stance system is unbalanced? Shiek/Zelda and Samus/ZSS say hi. Assuming you're worried about having extra moves making him OP, just make sure it isn't too easy to switch between stances. My ideas for stance switching: assign it to the sword taunt. If he gets hit during the stance change, maybe he drops the sword and has to pick it back up/wait a while before he can try changing stances again. Also, there should be a way for him to pick which stance he wants to start with before the match begins.

 

[Haxeye]

I'm assuming you were responding to me. In any case, what you and I said are both true. Ganondorf should have had an original moveset to begin with, but he didn't, and replacing the old clone moveset would likely result in backlash. Hence why I (and several others) have suggested the stance system as a compromise.

I'd be fine with a stance change but this argument is flawed either way because a character is put into Smash to appease the character's fans first & for most & you're arguing in favor of a clone moveset, if people love that moveset so much then I suggest adopting Falcon and his playstyle instead of continuing to butcher Ganondorf. Sakurai has had no problem cutting clones entirely which pleases no one so I doubt that he'd care much about opinions in favor of just a cloned moveset.

 

[Bowserlick]

Go check the Black Shadow thread. Treating Emperor Wakamoto Black Shadow as a dump for Ganondorf's old moves would be just as insulting to us as making Ganondorf a clone originally was to you.

Stance system is unbalanced? Shiek/Zelda and Samus/ZSS say hi. Assuming you're worried about having extra moves making him OP, just make sure it isn't too easy to switch between stances. My ideas for stance switching: assign it to the sword taunt. If he gets hit during the stance change, maybe he drops the sword and has to pick it back up/wait a while before he can try changing stances again. Also, there should be a way for him to pick which stance he wants to start with before the match begins.

Sheik and Zelda has to be balanced in regards to each other. I would not like that with Ganondorf's two move sets. Samus and Zamus did not have to be balanced within each other because of the specific circumstances that causes the switch.

I am not sure Black Shadow would get in any other way rather than with the old move set.

But fans of the move set had it for two games, while fans of Ganondorf did not get an original move set yet. I think it would be completely fair to scrap the Clone moves for original moves. It is a Nintendo Character fan service game after all.

Regardless, I believe that Sakurai will simply further declone Ganondorf but keep some clone moves intact.

 

[Haxeye]

I think the best solution would be to keep the strong brawler aspect of Smash Ganondorf by keeping the majority of his A moves then supplementing it with a dark magic projectile, replace some of his specials & allow stance change to a sword.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14627916&postcount=33

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Many people look at Black Shadow as a way to pass down Ganondorf’s moveset to someone while he gets a new one. This is highly unfair, especially to someone like Black Shadow. From the anime, Black Shadow has numerous powers that would allow both he AND Ganondorf to not be semi-clones of Captain Falcon, namely the ability to fly, teleport, telepathic powers (mind control, memory wipes, and nerve attacks), black magic rituals and shadow manipulation on top of physical strength and durability. In the games, he is not without power as well, and is one of the few to actually show supernatural ability within the games themselves (not even Captain Falcon does), by creating dark clones of characters out of thin air and creating energy chains to bind people, as well as a few telekinetic abilities.

Getting off topic, but I had a point to make that apparently wasn't getting through.

Back on topic, if the stance thing doesn't do it for you, what about the EX mode idea I had?
This wouldn't be the first fighting game to use the idea, and I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to implement.
-Method 1("Guilty Gear method"): have a menu pop up when you choose Ganondorf that allows you to pick which moveset you want.
-Method 2("SNK method"): hold down some button(maybe L/R) while picking your character to switch to the alternate moveset.

I think the best solution would be to keep the strong brawler aspect of Smash Ganondorf by keeping the majority of his A moves then supplementing it with a dark magic projectile, replace some of his specials & allow stance change to a sword.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14627916&postcount=33

Ooh, that could work too.

 

[Haxeye]

Yeah I myself like Ganondorf's A moves but it's the fact that all of his specials are so close to Falcon's which is really unnecessary.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Oh man Black Shadow confirmed!
But wait why is he using a sword and shooting dark energy balls from his palm?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Oh man Black Shadow confirmed!
But wait why is he using a sword and shooting dark energy balls from his palm?

Wait....what?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The weapon that opposes the Master Sword is a Trident, not a sword. If Ganondorf wields a simple sword, he has no chance against Link

 

[Robert of Normandy]

The weapon that opposes the Master Sword is a Trident, not a sword. If Ganondorf wields a simple sword, he has no chance against Link

I believe he only ever used a trident in his demon/boar form, and even then only in the pre-OoT days. Ever since OoT he's mostly wielded a sword. Although a trident would be kinda cool, and would stop people from complaining about there being too many sword users.

 

[Frostwraith]

I believe he only ever used a trident in his demon/boar form, and even then only in the pre-OoT days. Ever since OoT he's mostly wielded a sword. Although a trident would be kinda cool, and would stop people from complaining about there being too many sword users.

Ocarina of Time's Phantom Ganon uses a trident-like weapon and shoots magic with it.

Anyway, I thought of a way to keep his old moveset while giving him a sword.

Ganondorf (without sword)

Neutral B, Side B and Up B - Same as Brawl.
Down B: Weapon Change - Unseathes his sword, changing the moveset.

Ganondorf (with sword)

Neutral B: Wizard's Foot - Former Down B of swordless Ganon. Functions the same way as before.
Side B: Sword Beam - Does a vertical slash, unleashing a wave of darkness. Would be a medium powered projectile attack.
Up B: Gerudo Uppercut - Does a strong upward slash with his sword. Can also be used for upward recovery.
Down B: Weapon Change - Seathes his sword, changing the moveset.