Ganondorf Patch 1.1.0 Changes (Good News!)

[MagiusNecros]

If you must test shield damage use it on Bowser's shield which is the biggest.

Dunno why Mario is the go to answer.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The shield damage from Aerial Wizard Kick remains the same.

 

[Blobface]

The shield damage change was pretty small from an integer standpoint. It's only 5 extra shield damage. It possibly wasn't done in this patch but a different one, because old data says Wizkick had 10 bonus shield damage, when it now has 15. Maybe it was a missed change at some point?

Edit: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-frame-data-smash-4-edition.383751/
http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

Big O's as well as Thinkaman's Data say that Wizkick has 10 bonus shield damage. Both are somewhat old, so perhaps this was a missed buff in an older patch?

 

[WwwWario]

Shields have 50 hp when full. After a shield break, you start at 30. Shields take the full brunt of damage (13% attack = 13 damage to the shield) along with any bonus damage (marth's shield breaker).

In addition, big news here. There don't seem to be any frame changes to Ganondorf, but he got something better.

Spotdodges and rolls were made worse across the board by 1-2 frames.

Aha, I see. So, moves like Volcano Kick has bonus shield damage? I mean, it breaks a shield as long as it doesn't have full HP, and the Volcano Kick definitely doesn't do around 50 damage. So does that move have bonus shield damage then?

 

[Blobface]

Aha, I see. So, moves like Volcano Kick has bonus shield damage? I mean, it breaks a shield as long as it doesn't have full HP, and the Volcano Kick definitely doesn't do around 50 damage. So does that move have bonus shield damage then?

Volcano Kick deals 20 bonus shield damage on top of 29% damage fresh, so if you hit with the leg/foot it'll always shieldbreak.

 

[WwwWario]

Volcano Kick deals 20 bonus shield damage on top of 29% damage fresh, so if you hit with the leg/foot it'll always shieldbreak.

Holy darn, that's a lot of Dorf.

 

[Radical Larry]

Holy darn, that's a lot of Dorf.

It seemed as if Ganondorf Expanded Dong...by a leg.

Anyways, as the tip for Ganondorf's Volcano Kick said, it will always break everything but a Perfect Shield. Other than that, Ganondorf has the most moves that punish shielding characters, others being WizFoot, F-Smash, U-Smash, D-Air, Warlock Punch, Warlock Blade, Flame Choke, Flame Wave, Dark Dive and Dark Vault, all having different properties on how they punish.

So yeah...pressure, grabbing, piercing, breaking. What can't Ganondorf do on a shielder?

 

[Opana]

I find very limited uses for up throw, at mid percent it still sends them too high for any good followups, but you could potentially ge t juggles. Usually the optimal throw is down throw since it is easier to follow up, and having a kill throw is good since sheilds are so strong. Yes we have flame choke but having another option to kill helps Ganon mix it up with maybr a really close up dash grab or something.

https://youtu.be/EFd7736z_zk?t=1m16s

Definitely not the best example at all but it gives somewhat an idea. Versus more capable opponents I have used Uthrow similarly, sometimes in other scenarios I may punish air dodges or jumps too. It's mainly just reacting to the opponent, and I like doing so at early mid percents when dthrow gets more difficult to follow up. Also something interesting I experimented with in the past, and later saw on Gungnir's Youtube channel, is the use of Uthrow at 0% on Battlefield's top platform. It sets up either a nice tech chase or forces them to jump, putting them in a bad position where with the right reads we can get them offstage with no jump for a potential kill. Or, like Gungnir did, we can punish missed techs on primarily D3 with an Uair forced get up.

Like Dark Dive it's something I wouldn't recommend to most other dorf users because it may not pay off and they'd be better off with more reliable moves.

 

[verbatim]

I think Ganon's throw game is one of his weaknesses. Only f-throw and d-throw are truly useful. He needs a better throw range.

Or a kill throw.

 

[TheGreatBrawler]

I would prefer a kill throw over grab range. That is more needed in my opinion, although his grab range sucks...

 

[Radical Larry]

I would prefer a kill throw over grab range. That is more needed in my opinion, although his grab range sucks...

Grab range nor a kill throw truly matter. It's how you execute the throw or grab that matters. And besides, he has a descent kill throw with B-Throw with Rage added. And technically, you can call Flame Wave a kill throw in its own right.

What the problem with Ganondorf's grab isn't either range nor kill throws, it's his own speed. It can benefit him at certain points, making him whiff grabs less than most opponents and having a descent grab speed, as well as punishing opponents who try rushing on his shield, but other points, which are his dash grab and approach options, cannot be covered due to his slow speed.

 

[HeavyLobster]

New Down Smash is my personal favorite thing about the new patch. A 15-frame move that can kill at 60% is not to be taken lightly, even with the usual caveats about endlag and reliability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKUsuTC2hr4

 

[Radical Larry]

New Down Smash is my personal favorite thing about the new patch. A 15-frame move that can kill at 60% is not to be taken lightly, even with the usual caveats about endlag and reliability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKUsuTC2hr4

This, plus the other buffs Ganondorf has received, definitely makes claims for him to be in the high tier category or upper middle more solid and viable arguments, especially with all of his Smashes killing around 60%. Just with this significant buff alone does Ganondorf definitely not deserve low or bottom tier, and it keeps him away from central middle tier and lower middle tier.

Upper Middle or HIgh Tier will suit him more.

 

[Deotay]

This, plus the other buffs Ganondorf has received, definitely makes claims for him to be in the high tier category or upper middle more solid and viable arguments, especially with all of his Smashes killing around 60%. Just with this significant buff alone does Ganondorf definitely not deserve low or bottom tier, and it keeps him away from central middle tier and lower middle tier.

Upper Middle or HIgh Tier will suit him more.

Definitely not High Tier. Tiers, in my opinion, should reflect a character's usability in the current meta which means what characters you're most going to run into during tournament or high level play. These buffs are nice but Ganondorf's match-ups against many frequently seen characters are a bit iffy. Mid Tier sounds alright.

 

[Blobface]

Definitely not High Tier. Tiers, in my opinion, should reflect a character's usability in the current meta which means what characters you're most going to run into during tournament or high level play. These buffs are nice but Ganondorf's match-ups against many frequently seen characters are a bit iffy. Mid Tier sounds alright.

I'd honestly call Ganon high tier if it weren't for him having trash top tier matchups. The D-smash buff will improve these a little bit though. It doesn't fix the overall problems these matchups present, but it'll be a tad easier now that he can kill consistently from both sides of the stage, which is significant in a two-stock meta with rage. Every Ganon should learn Turn around --> D-smash for choke reads.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

If the Dorf only had more grabrange and a recovery that is not terrible...good thing his ledge grab range is crazy.

 

[Super_Smasher6]

New Down Smash is my personal favorite thing about the new patch. A 15-frame move that can kill at 60% is not to be taken lightly, even with the usual caveats about endlag and reliability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKUsuTC2hr4

I absolutely love that new D-smash

 

[TinDust]

I wouldn't call him top tier. Has horrible matchups against too many characters, almost in the same boat as Little Mac

 

[MagiusNecros]

Will be using dsmash more. It is pretty great.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'd honestly call Ganon high tier if it weren't for him having trash top tier matchups. The D-smash buff will improve these a little bit though. It doesn't fix the overall problems these matchups present, but it'll be a tad easier now that he can kill consistently from both sides of the stage, which is significant in a two-stock meta with rage. Every Ganon should learn Turn around --> D-smash for choke reads.

The thing is most everyone else is getting better too. Rankwise Ganon is probably still low-mid, but in terms of viability he's threatening to everyone and everything because now literally everything on him hits like a truck except Dark Dive. (Pls fix Samurai)

 

[King9999]

Just killed a Sheik with the new d-smash :D

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Just killed a Sheik with the new d-smash :D

Now we're talking. The move's now a legit killer from the edge especially against lightweights.

This buff in particular helps us against Rosalina (Sheik/ZSS to a lesser degree).

 

[adom4]

Now we're talking. The move's now a legit killer from the edge especially against lightweights.

This buff in particular helps us against Rosalina (Sheik/ZSS to a lesser degree).

It will help a ton against olimar, he cannot afford to miss a tech over 60%.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Definitely is nice vs. Zero Suit, as you can land it after spotdodging her grab, while F/USmash are generally too slow.

 

[Blobface]

Side note: D-smash has a huge disjoint on the second kick now. The purple effect clearly shows where it is but his actual boot is barely even touching you .

 

[Jiom]

Really love the new downsmash buff, but I still occasionally get the first hit to send them in front of me instead of into the second kick, which is unfortunate.

 

[Radical Larry]

Really love the new downsmash buff, but I still occasionally get the first hit to send them in front of me instead of into the second kick, which is unfortunate.

It's been in pre-patch, sadly. But at least it automatically has your opponent go into hitstun long enough for the attack to finish and allow you to try another attack or a grab. But boy, the attack severely punishes ledge rolling on a perfect read.

Fully charged, the thing is a KO at 50% at the edge of the stage, 70% in the middle and 90% on the furthest edge. The only "good" DI against this move is actually doing no DI at all, since:

DI down will probably remove or lower your chance at recovery and will likely allow Ganondorf to gimp.
DI up will very, very likely result in a corner blast line KO or upper blast line KO.

However, no DI will allow you to go at the golden angle where you can recover and not risk being KO'd in the corner blast line. D-Smash is that kind of attack where DI will not help at all and your endurance depends on not using DI; that's true about almost all of Ganondorf's attacks, where DI never matters. F-Tilt; always a semi-spike. Warlock Punch; at 10% damage it's a guaranteed KO reversed. F-Smash; powerful and using upwards DI will not benefit you.

 

[verbatim]

New Down Smash is my personal favorite thing about the new patch. A 15-frame move that can kill at 60% is not to be taken lightly, even with the usual caveats about endlag and reliability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKUsuTC2hr4

This is actually really good. The DK boards have started calling his new Cargo Upthrow to Up-air the Ding-Dong, so........

I herby suggest that from now on we as a community shall refer to Ganon's smash attacks as forward smash, up smash, and DEATH-SMASH.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

This is actually really good. The DK boards have started calling his new Cargo Upthrow to Up-air the Ding-Dong, so........

I herby suggest that from now on we as a community shall refer to Ganon's smash attacks as forward smash, up smash, and DEATH-SMASH.

Ganon's Dthrow-fair = The Slam Jam
Warlock Punch or Utilt on Shield broken/resting opponent = The Fatality
Dair spike or utilt edgeguard = The Disrespectorf

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't need cheesy names for my attacks.

 

[Didier337]

Honestly I want ganon's U-throw/B-throw to kill probably at 100%.If you get caught by ganon's grab,you kinda deserve to die.

 

[DarkFox207]

Hi everyone, I usually lurk the forums but now I've got some spare time so here's little match for you guys to enjoy regarding the ganon vs duck hunt mu.
https://youtu.be/vyZhfJm3nQ8 I love this new down smash! Thanks Samurai! Lol

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dat first stock

 

[Dark Phazon]

The shield damage from Aerial Wizard Kick remains the same.

100% Correct

 

[WwwWario]

His D-smash buff is legendary. Still think it sucks that he has so many bad matchups.

I'm just wondering (might be a nooby-like question, but, eh): Can a Ganon player even stand a chance against a very skilled Sheik player, or ZSS player, or other hard top-tier matchups? Say, a player who uses Sheik for example, and wins lots of tournaments - can a Ganon player actually stand a chance at all? If you are good enough? I mean, are the matchups THAT bad so you can't win against the very skilled ones, or does it all come down to the player skill in the end?

 

[verbatim]

Man I like the new D-Smash buff, but, on the off chance someone from Sora's listening, it'd be really appreciated if you could b-reverse Aerial Wizard Foot.

Like, really appreciated.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The buff to the dsmash has more to it than it looks.

It changes a lot in a sense. His other two smashes are rock and scissors now other than being tail or head previously.

Think of it this way, a quick con and pro for each of Ganon's smash:

Fsmash - occasionally safe, tied for slowest smash, and has good horizontal range, okay kill move
Usmash - safe usually, tied for slowest smash, very small range horizontally, not a bad kill move
Dsmash with this patch - Fastest smash, good horizontal range, can kill faster than other two smashes at certain positions, very laggy and risky

And from the video DarkFox posted, you could see that Dsmash damages the opponent before it launches them with the second hit.

 

[Radical Larry]

The buff to the dsmash has more to it than it looks.

It changes a lot in a sense. His other two smashes are rock and scissors now other than being tail or head previously.

Think of it this way, a quick con and pro for each of Ganon's smash:

Fsmash - occasionally safe, tied for slowest smash, and has good horizontal range, okay kill move
Usmash - safe usually, tied for slowest smash, very small range horizontally, not a bad kill move
Dsmash with this patch - Fastest smash, good horizontal range, can kill faster than other two smashes at certain positions, very laggy and risky

And from the video DarkFox posted, you could see that Dsmash damages the opponent before it launches them with the second hit.

Actually, let me give you a few points about your inquiry:

F-Smash:
-Ganondorf's second slowest Smash Attack, IASA frames included. Moderate start up, higher end lag.
-Ganondorf's second most powerful Smash attack uncharged, most powerful charged.
-Best for shield pressuring and poking shields.
-Decent horizontal range.

U-Smash:
-Ganondorf's fastest Smash Attack and the fastest Smash Attack in the game, IASA Frames included. Moderate start up and no end lag after the attack frames due to the IASA frames it has.
-Ganondorf's most powerful Smash Attack uncharged, second most powerful charged, but second and third most powerful in sour spot.
-Great for poking shields and giving mind games.
-Decent horizontal and great vertical range.
-Allows a psych out, since due to the IASA frames, it allows Ganondorf to do so many follow ups to punish early rushers.
-One of two attacks of his that can juggle opponents (the other being D-Tilt).

D-Smash:
-Ganondorf's slowest Smash attack, IASA frames included. Low start up, higher end lag.
-Jack-of-all-Trades Smash Attack, it can be either the weakest or most powerful Smash Attack, wholly dependent upon his positioning. It's the most random type of Smash Attack, as its KO Power is very random.
-Amazing horizontal range both ways.
-Punishes rolls.

Those are the facts about him that I've known.

 

[TheGreatBrawler]

Actually, let me give you a few points about your inquiry:

F-Smash:
-Ganondorf's second slowest Smash Attack, IASA frames included. Moderate start up, higher end lag.
-Ganondorf's second most powerful Smash attack uncharged, most powerful charged.
-Best for shield pressuring and poking shields.
-Decent horizontal range.

U-Smash:
-Ganondorf's fastest Smash Attack and the fastest Smash Attack in the game, IASA Frames included. Moderate start up and no end lag after the attack frames due to the IASA frames it has.
-Ganondorf's most powerful Smash Attack uncharged, second most powerful charged, but second and third most powerful in sour spot.
-Great for poking shields and giving mind games.
-Decent horizontal and great vertical range.
-Allows a psych out, since due to the IASA frames, it allows Ganondorf to do so many follow ups to punish early rushers.
-One of two attacks of his that can juggle opponents (the other being D-Tilt).

D-Smash:
-Ganondorf's slowest Smash attack, IASA frames included. Low start up, higher end lag.
-Jack-of-all-Trades Smash Attack, it can be either the weakest or most powerful Smash Attack, wholly dependent upon his positioning. It's the most random type of Smash Attack, as its KO Power is very random.
-Amazing horizontal range both ways.
-Punishes rolls.

Those are the facts about him that I've known.

Ganon's up smash is the fastest smash attack in the game? Faster than Fox's and Pikachu's? Wow

 

[DarkFox207]

His D-smash buff is legendary. Still think it sucks that he has so many bad matchups.

I'm just wondering (might be a nooby-like question, but, eh): Can a Ganon player even stand a chance against a very skilled Sheik player, or ZSS player, or other hard top-tier matchups? Say, a player who uses Sheik for example, and wins lots of tournaments - can a Ganon player actually stand a chance at all? If you are good enough? I mean, are the matchups THAT bad so you can't win against the very skilled ones, or does it all come down to the player skill in the end?

Not as bad as you think. Is doable but you have to outplay a Sheik in neutral, and that's not as easy but when you manage to get in you need constant pressure and your reads have to be on point especially the tech chases with flame choke (since D tilt doesn't work on her) you need to maximize every option she does.
-Attack you shield it and grab
-Normal get up (I usually dash dance to make them shield again)
-Roll behind (you run and a pivot f tilt) or SH a retreating dair
-Roll away ( you can chase with side b again, and if you're close to the ledge you can down b and catch their roll)
-if they don't do anything and stay on the ground you can SH down b them.

That's for the characters who don't get hit by D tilt, f tilt or jab. And patience my friend is the key people will try to play a keep away game against you since you're "slow" xD