Ganondorf Match-Up Rankings

[Koskinator]

The game said so I can help with your own business and leisure travelers who are not going to be a good time at all possible that the only thing I can do it for the first time in the game just dont get hit by a stitch kits for the most important

 

[A2ZOMG]

Me saying Cloud doesn't have a huge advantage on us is, well, based on my personal experience(s).
He does beat us in neutral, no doubt, but once we win neutral, we can do some nice stuff to him - especially off stage.
In some scenarios, Cloud's recovery is worse than Mac's.

This is exactly my experience vs Cloud currently post patch. You should see how my Ganon's come along sometime.

 

[super fan bros]

Me saying Cloud doesn't have a huge advantage on us is, well, based on my personal experience(s).
He does beat us in neutral, no doubt, but once we win neutral, we can do some nice stuff to him - especially off stage.
In some scenarios, Cloud's recovery is worse than Mac's.

I do not see how. Cloud has a recovery better than Mac. With or without the limit

 

[Litany]

I do not see how. Cloud has a recovery better than Mac. With or without the limit

Just my two cents.

Well, Mac has a far better wall jump for one. The main reason though, is that Little Mac can mix-up his recovery. When playing as Cloud, you only have one option (i.e. Up-B). With Little Mac, he can use Side-B, Up-B, or even counter an attack. This makes it easier to recover against opponents trying to edgeguard him, as he is not nearly as predictable.

Of course, in most situations, Cloud's recovery is better; but not all the time.

 

[Xinc]

I have a friend who plays Cloud. Ganon really struggles on stage, but he does have some reliable punishes on Cloud. The name of the game is to throw him off the stage so you can intercept his recovery. Even the limit up B can be intercepted. Considering Ganon can live a bit longer also, I don't write this off as that bad a disadvantage.

 

[Opana]

I mean Cloud has an amazing neutral, ability to constantly force our approach, very strong advantage, ability to force Ganon to the ledge with uair and the tools to keep him glued to the ledge as well. His Nair actually invalidates Ganon offstage as well if they're smart with at, tbh I wouldn't be surprised if this was our worst match up. I don't think our advantage warrants an easier mu since we have a ton of difficulty getting in.

 

[Abbey Street]

Will point this out right now. You guys should definitely not separate Marth and Lucina in your respective lists. While it's true that we are much more easily Tippered than most of the cast and that can get us killed early, Lucina is definitely not a slouch either. She kills us offstage with less effort, is far more consistent damage-wise, and can combo us pretty hard, being able to chain SH DB 1 > NAir 1 on us a number of times consecutively at some percents.

Don't sleep on "discount Marth" guys. She can body us just as hard, possibly even harder, and often in ways that many of you probably aren't aware of.

 

[Xinc]

Will point this out right now. You guys should definitely not separate Marth and Lucina in your respective lists. While it's true that we are much more easily Tippered than most of the cast and that can get us killed early, Lucina is definitely not a slouch either. She kills us offstage with less effort, is far more consistent damage-wise, and can combo us pretty hard, being able to chain SH DB 1 > NAir 1 on us a number of times consecutively at some percents.

Don't sleep on "discount Marth" guys. She can body us just as hard, possibly even harder, and often in ways that many of you probably aren't aware of.

I personally believe Lucina doesn't fair as well as Marth, both pun and not pun-wise. Ganon can more reliably space against her without fear of tippers. I still believe they go even because of Lucina's mobility and good combo game, but Marth has a slight edge over Lucina in this MU.

 

[Vermanubis]

I mean Cloud has an amazing neutral, ability to constantly force our approach, very strong advantage, ability to force Ganon to the ledge with uair and the tools to keep him glued to the ledge as well. His Nair actually invalidates Ganon offstage as well if they're smart with at, tbh I wouldn't be surprised if this was our worst match up. I don't think our advantage warrants an easier mu since we have a ton of difficulty getting in.

Aye, we have a lot of cases where we have nasty stuff when we get it, but as usual and as is in Cloud's case, it's not like it's guaranteed, and you'd be slightly remiss to undermine the difficulty and risk we run getting in, given a whiff means eating a limit.

I've never felt that "we get bodied but occasionally get a shot at doing something gnarly" was good ground to assert our favor in a MU

 

[MGK]

This is my Ganondorf MU chart.

 

[Blobface]

View attachment 111946 This is my Ganondorf MU chart.

I agree with most of this. Only things I'd change are

• Zard to 50/50. We get plenty of stupid stuff against Zard but he gets plenty of stupid stuff on us too.
• Fox to 55/45. He's strong all around, but he gets absolutely trashed when he gets hit, almost as bad as Roy does.
• ZSS to 40/60. I just don't see her on the same level as the other blokes in 35/65. She has to take far more risks to beat Ganon than those guys do.

 

[MGK]

I agree with most of this. Only things I'd change are

• Zard to 50/50. We get plenty of stupid stuff against Zard but he gets plenty of stupid stuff on us too.
• Fox to 55/45. He's strong all around, but he gets absolutely trashed when he gets hit, almost as bad as Roy does.
• ZSS to 40/60. I just don't see her on the same level as the other blokes in 35/65. She has to take far more risks to beat Ganon than those guys do.

All very valid points.

I agree with zard, defiantly could be even since he does have a reliable kill throw and can juggle us amazingly well. Just feel our punish game is a tad too strong though.

Fair enough on Fox, I train with a fox main and it's pretty even but at the same time I feel fox's vortex destroys us too hard for it to be any better then 60/40.

I'll be honest with ZSS, I personally struggle in the MU at the moment and so I push it up to 65 / 35. I also haven't seen much zss vs ganondorf since the nerfs.

 

[Abbey Street]

Eh, Fox has got some serious bull****. It's dead even, all things considered.
I'm with Blob on ZSS being 40/60.
Zard, yeah, I don't think we win that one easily. He's much too hard to kill.

My personal recommendations:
I'd set Greninja to 40:60 a la ZSS. He has some notable issues killing us, and he's jugglable.
**** Luigi, man. Probably a 4/6. His reward is insane and edgeguarding us is a cinch.
We lose to Lucina without a doubt. She has no tippers, but she does have combos that are beyond stupid on heavies like us.
Bowser's probably winning or even, simply due to the fact that he's pure jank food.
Palutena's an issue. She gets in and we get bopped.

Other than that it's lookin good

 

[MexicanoZaibatsu]

Mario 40:60 (sometimes forced to play DK depending on how tough the player is)
Luigi 35:65
Peach 35:65 (played Dark Pch and LingLing)
Bowser 50:50
Yoshi 40:60 (played Raptor)
Rosa 25:75
Bowser Jr 40:60
Wario 45:55
Donkey Kong 30:70 (played DkWill more times than I can remember)
Diddy Kong 35:65
Mr. Game & Watch 55:45
Little Mac 50:50
Link 40:60
Zelda 45:55
Sheik 40:60
Ganondorf EPIC
Toon Link 40:60
Samus 50:50
Zero Suit Samus 35:65
Pit/Dark Pit 40:60
Palutena 45:55
Marth 40:60
Ike 45:55
Robin 40:60
Duck Hunt 40:60
Kirby 35:65 (played Mikekirby, Deven3000 and Ken109. Nightmare MU for me and Im forced to use DK)
King Dedede 35:65
Meta Knight 35:65
Fox 50:50 (played dekillsage a few sets)
Falco 40:60
Pikachu 35:65 (Forced to play Lucario against this yellow rodent)
Charizard 50:50
Lucario 50:50 (played Vivi and oni Day when he was in town for Apex. Got burned on edgeguards at low % games 2 and 3 by the latter)
Jigglypuff 55:45
Greninja 40:60 (played Venia)
Rob 40:60
Ness 40:60 (played J Ribs)
Captain Falcon 40:60
Villager 35:65
Olimar 40:60
Wii Fit Trainer 40:60 (played John Numbers)
Shulk 50:50
Dr. Mario 55:45
Lucina 40:60
Pac-Man 40:60 (played Sinji)
Megaman 40:60
Sonic 35:65
Mewtwo 40:60
Lucas 50:50
Roy 55:45
Ryu 35:65
Cloud 35:65
Corrin 45:55
Bayonetta 35:65

 

[super fan bros]

What do you think of the MU Ganondorf vs Jiggs?

With more of reflexion, I think than Ganondorf is slightly in his favor

 

[Opana]

Palutena ****ing sucks too

 

[Abbey Street]

If you're impatient vs Palutena you won't win. Otherwise the MU's very doable

 

[Opana]

It's doable like a lot of mus, I don't like it though. Her nair is actually ridiculous off stage and despite her tools being limited I feel they keep ganon out effectively. I have a harder time dealing with tena than I do Sonic which is kinda crazy lol. At the least I'm putting that at 60/40, I could see my opinion of her shifting for better or worse though.

 

[Zam053]

My MU Chart. Probably has some things (or a lot) wrong...

 

[super fan bros]

My MU Chart. Probably has some things (or a lot) wrong...

This is not especially bad with the exception of MU even and positive for Ganondorf. After it's my opinion

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay everyone, I have the final chart looking like this;

Any strong disagreements?

 

[Opana]

Pretty agreeable overall

 

[MGK]

I would have to strongly disagree with Lucas. I think the MU is even or maybe -1 in Lucas's favor. Defiantly not -2.

I would also say the same with Kirby being -2, since we see that MU all the time with GtB vsing his brother / Triple R. But I'm not 100% sure on that one.

WFT could also be even because I vs Wave Guider's WFT a fair amount and we go pretty even yet he is a way better player then I am.

 

[Opana]

I definitely don't agree woth everything but what stands out to me most is Little Mac. He has everything he needs to completely control the pace of a match, he's kinda like a stronger Sonic that's easier to gimp. I would say at least -2 honestly, very difficult for us to punish a good one or get in on them.

I may have said this was one of oir better ones at some point but my views on this have changed a lot.

 

[mgleed]

I think it looks pretty good. Here are the ones that stick out a bit to me and how I would change them.

More difficult:

• Samus, Mac, Zard 0 -> -1
• Fox, Megaman, Oli, MK -1 -> -2
• Diddy, Greninja -2 -> -3

Not as difficult:

• ROB, Lucas, Kirby -2 -> -1
• Cloud, DK, Luigi -3 -> -2

I think the one with the most evidence is lowering ROB, as we've had Ganons do fairly well against some of the best ROB's in the world. Also, anecdotally, having played offline probably the best Greninja in North America, I definitely think that MU is -3.

 

[Opana]

I don't agree with all that either but it's nice to see more discussion.

Why would you move Cloud/Luigi down?

Greninja is a weird one, I fought Akashic and he was my first experience fighting a good Greninja, was awhile back and I got bodied a lot largely due to hydro pump. I fought Apostle and the mu seemed very manageable, he didn't mix up his camping as effectively though or maybe I just got better at dealing with it. I fought Ookami a few hours ago and it felt like a slight disadvantage while being very manageable.

That's the order I fought them, it's tough to tell though because the other two didn't hydro my up b for gimps, while at the same time I've improved a lot. I think -3 isn't unreasonable but I find -2 to be more acceptable imo.

His grab being slow, his recovery being pretty standard to edge guard, his lack of combo breaking moves, poor oos options and need to get to a very close range to do any real damage makes this very doable.

But his edge guards and shuriken camping/ledge coverage alone make this difficult at times, and if they can fstool combo well making the most of their openings things could get bad quickly.

I feel like hydro pump is so devasting to us used right that it makes the mu worse lol

 

[adom4]

I don't agree with all that either but it's nice to see more discussion.

Why would you move Cloud/Luigi down?

Greninja is a weird one, I fought Akashic and he was my first experience fighting a good Greninja, was awhile back and I got bodied a lot largely due to hydro pump. I fought Apostle and the mu seemed very manageable, he didn't mix up his camping as effectively though or maybe I just got better at dealing with it. I fought Ookami a few hours ago and it felt like a slight disadvantage while being very manageable.

That's the order I fought them, it's tough to tell though because the other two didn't hydro my up b for gimps, while at the same time I've improved a lot. I think -3 isn't unreasonable but I find -2 to be more acceptable imo.

His grab being slow, his recovery being pretty standard to edge guard, his lack of combo breaking moves, poor oos options and need to get to a very close range to do any real damage makes this very doable.

But his edge guards and shuriken camping/ledge coverage alone make this difficult at times, and if they can fstool combo well making the most of their openings things could get bad quickly.

I feel like hydro pump is so devasting to us used right that it makes the mu worse lol

The things that annoys me the most about Greninja is his stupidly small hurtbox, it's not on Sheik/Pika levels of hard but i still think it's one of our hardest.

 

[super fan bros]

Okay everyone, I have the final chart looking like this;

Any strong disagreements?

Bowser has the MU

 

[LoveExpert]

Bowser has the MU

thats pretty questionably, especially after the dominant showing we had in the crew battle against them

 

[super fan bros]

thats pretty questionably, especially after the dominant showing we had in the crew battle against them

Bowser has so much more Tools than Ganondorf. I see evil a egality. 60-40 I think for Bowser

 

[Zam053]

Bowser has so much more Tools than Ganondorf. I see evil a egality. 60-40 I think for Bowser

The only things that Bowser has on the MU are a better OsS option with Flying Fortress and the Koo-Pah. Ganondorf still has longer range and he can do a lot of shenanigans out of Choke. Ganondorf also has better range and good aerials to challenge Bowser's. I see Bowser having an advantage, but it probably is 45-55 (or even, if you are more optimistic about Ganondorf).

 

[super fan bros]

The only things that Bowser has on the MU are a better OsS option with Flying Fortress and the Koo-Pah. Ganondorf still has longer range and he can do a lot of shenanigans out of Choke. Ganondorf also has better range and good aerials to challenge Bowser's. I see Bowser having an advantage, but it probably is 45-55 (or even, if you are more optimistic about Ganondorf).

Bowser is faster, of grab excellents while those of Ganondorf are bad, a better recovery, a Attack at Midway, and he edgeguard easier. And the reach of Ganondorf is similar at Bowser. The only Tools than has Ganondorf are his Dair and his B side.

60-40 for Bowser I think, or 55-45 great maxi

 

[Vaataji]

Bowser is faster, of grab excellents while those of Ganondorf are bad, a better recovery, a Attack at Midway, and he edgeguard easier. And the reach of Ganondorf is similar at Bowser. The only Tools than has Ganondorf are his Dair and his B side.

60-40 for Bowser I think, or 55-45 great maxi

Can't say i agree, Ganon most certainly has better edgeguarding than bowser, not talking about how braindead up-air/n-air is offstage either, just that it's out-right better. All bowser really has is run off f-air and d-air, run off f-air being super telegraphed and easy to air-dodge on reaction offline. Ganon also way more tools than side-b and d-air, you've left d-tilt, and ganon's ridiculously good b-air unaccounted for. Bowser's better recovery is irrelevant in this MU, it doesn't help him against ganon much at all, ganon's aerials out-right beat his up-b unless ganon gets poked on startup, which is easily spaced around. The best thing bowser has in this MU by far are both his jab and insane grab range, but other than that ganon can return everything bowser can do to ganon right back at him. And offstage is way scarier for Bowser overall than for Ganon.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I honestly don't think there are any match-ups in Smash 4 that are worse than 70:30. 80:20 in Brawl were match-ups where you'd expect to get chain-grabbed from 0-100%, that sort of thing. Just my opinion though.

Maybe MK vs Peach, but that's all I can think of.

 

[Z1GMA]

Okay everyone, I have the final chart looking like this;

Any strong disagreements?

Final Chart? Is this an average of our opinions?
If yes, then it doesn't matter if ppl disagree since their vote is already in it.