Ganondorf Changes (E3)

[JOE!]

It seems tipper Fsmash and the Warlock punch deal the same damage... redundant design...?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

It seems tipper Fsmash and the Warlock punch deal the same damage... redundant design...?

Warlock Punch is more than just redundant lol.
But yeah I dont know why Warlock Punch is still a thing. Maybe in the next game Ganon will get a unique Neutral Special move finally.

 

[meleebrawler]

It seems tipper Fsmash and the Warlock punch deal the same damage... redundant design...?

Knockback. The punch could do 1% like Finishing Touch for all I care as long as it kills ridiculously early.

 

[Boartobewild]

It seems tipper Fsmash and the Warlock punch deal the same damage... redundant design...?

Also Super armor, it was very much (and hopefully still is) possible to catch or tank moves like Luigi's and pikachu's Headbash, Ike's, Cloud's up/side b and similair moves like those and charizard's flare blitz and quite a few more I won't bother listing, with the armor frames and than punish during their lag. The funniest example actually that warrants an extra mention is Ryu's D-B, focus attack, which was shown to be able to counter Warlock punch in Ryu's first trailer and now in the Smash ultimate reveal clash with it, as if equal. It's actually the total OPPOSITE! No sane Ganon main would just wily-nily throw out a warlock punch, in fear of either getting countered or opening himself up to a throw combo, that ends with a off-stage spike, or receiving an "DSJCUS" at kill percent! Most Ryu players however I encountered on For glory at least, were pretty adamant/confident in using it as a landing option, which in most other matchups I can agree, but ironically enough, warlock punch happens to be the worst possible counter to Focus attack if you can pull the timing off XD

Now that Smash Attacks can be charged about twice or even longer, and also used after the new Dash cancel mechanic, I could see some more potential use for Warlock Punch. If you wanna talk about a redundant useless move, how about his U-tilt (volcano kick) ?!?!

 

[King9999]

Volcano kick has its uses, I wouldn't say it's redundant. It has a huge hitbox that can be used for edgeguarding. It also destroys shields in one shot, which Warlock punch and F-smash can't do.

 

[Boartobewild]

Volcano kick has its uses, I wouldn't say it's redundant. It has a huge hitbox that can be used for edgeguarding. It also destroys shields in one shot, which Warlock punch and F-smash can't do.

Well how strong Warlock punch( normal and reverse) and especially the new F-smash when charged are gonna be, with no-item, ForGlory 1.25 modifier, in general and against shield, remains to be seen. And yes, while U-tilt has a very unique niche, to put it nicely, it's still a move with far too many flaws and weaknesses to offset those unique qualities, especially considering Ganon has so many far better and safer tools for edge-guarding in particular!

Considering it takes/wastes the spot for a perfectly usable U-tilt anti-air/combo starter and also can lead to costing/losing a stock, if the game just so happens to misread a hectic buffer input, intended as either U-smash or short-hop u-air, as Volcano kick instead, well you're ****ed and wished you had any other kind of move in that sort of scenario >_>

 

[Androobie]

GUYS

I SAW NARIO RESTORE A JUMP WITH WIZARD’S FOOT

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

GUYS

I SAW NARIO RESTORE A JUMP WITH WIZARD’S FOOT

That's the King of Evil's sorcery! Could we get a youtube link? (pun intended)

 

[Androobie]

That's the King of Evil's sorcery! Could we get a youtube link? (pun intended)

I saw it on the EVO livestream.

 

[Fell God]

GUYS

I SAW NARIO RESTORE A JUMP WITH WIZARD’S FOOT

You sure he didn't just save his jump? I thought Mango tried it at the invitational and it didn't work.

 

[Androobie]

You sure he didn't just save his jump? I thought Mango tried it at the invitational and it didn't work.

I don’t know, I didn’t see if he used up his jumps. They might have changed some mechanics around for EVO, and this could be one of them.

Please be right

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I don’t know, I didn’t see if he used up his jumps. They might have changed some mechanics around for EVO, and this could be one of them.

Please be right

i

Wow. I really hope you are correct. -crossing fingers-

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

Hope that is true, but I'm sceptical. That would help ALOT.

 

[albertoplus]

I think i found the Wizard Foot restoring jump thing.

Youtube Link

At around the 25:26 mark, Ganondorf gets launched out of the stage, and he seems to do a jump into an instant DownB then another jump. But I cant really see if he does the first jump or he just carries the "momentum" of the launch when he does the DownB so it goes "up" a bit before going down.

 

[Boartobewild]

I think i found the Wizard Foot restoring jump thing.

Youtube Link

At around the 25:26 mark, Ganondorf gets launched out of the stage, and he seems to do a jump into an instant DownB then another jump. But I cant really see if he does the first jump or he just carries the "momentum" of the launch when he does the DownB so it goes "up" a bit before going down.

OH MY GOD, AIRIAL WIZKICK ACTUALLY RESTORES HIS DOUBLE JUMP!!! O_O

Damn, they really wanted to go back to his melee days, but with the sword we've been longing to see unleashed + flame choke, an almost useful warlock punch and mostly improved tilts and airials. Really the only thing left to change , besides additional
Character(models) with more canonized version/playstyle for Ganon, would be for Flame choke to no longer induce helplessness in the air and we would be set ;D

Edit: Yeah, it's really hard to make out, whether this is just part of the recovery animation, or lead-in/startup of wizkick, but after watching it alonside pausing it as many times as possible, I'm pretty positive that he's doing a db jump (for one due to the clearly higher position of Ganon after knockback but shortly before D-b and also you can see him attempting the classical somersault for his db jump) to get out of tumble and immidiatley buffering wizkick and obv then manages a second db jumb, which means they brought this ability back from melee baby :D

 

[albertoplus]

OH MY GOD, AIRIAL WIZKICK ACTUALLY RESTORES HIS DOUBLE JUMP!!! O_O

Damn, they really wanted to go back to his melee days, but with the sword we've been longing to see unleashed + flame choke and an almost useful warlock punch. Really the only thing, besides additional
Character(models) with more canonized version/playstyle for Ganon, would be for Flame choke to no longer induce helplessness in the air and we would be set ;D

Edit: Yeah, it's really hard to make out, whether this is just part of the recovery animation, or lead-in/startup of wizkick, but after watching it alonside pausing it as many times as possible, I'm pretty positive that he's doing a db jump (for one due to the clearly higher position of Ganon after knockback but shortly before D-b and also you can see him attempting the classical somersault for his db jump) to get out of tumble and immidiatley buffering wizkick and obv then manages a second db jumb, which means they brought this ability back from melee baby :D

I really hope so

 

[meleebrawler]

I think i found the Wizard Foot restoring jump thing.

Youtube Link

At around the 25:26 mark, Ganondorf gets launched out of the stage, and he seems to do a jump into an instant DownB then another jump. But I cant really see if he does the first jump or he just carries the "momentum" of the launch when he does the DownB so it goes "up" a bit before going down.

I can think of only one special that has ever been affected by launch momentum: Little Mac's side b custom Guard Breaker. All other specials kill it entirely, and besides, wouldn't the "balloon knockback" make such instances look janky?

If true, this would not only be useful in recovery, but also help mix up landings on platformless stages.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I think i found the Wizard Foot restoring jump thing.

Youtube Link

At around the 25:26 mark, Ganondorf gets launched out of the stage, and he seems to do a jump into an instant DownB then another jump. But I cant really see if he does the first jump or he just carries the "momentum" of the launch when he does the DownB so it goes "up" a bit before going down.

Thanks for the link. I'm pretty sure he's jumping just before the Wizard foot. Seems like Ganondorf's jumping animation to me.

Nothing less to expect from the King of Evil.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I think i found the Wizard Foot restoring jump thing.

Youtube Link

At around the 25:26 mark, Ganondorf gets launched out of the stage, and he seems to do a jump into an instant DownB then another jump. But I cant really see if he does the first jump or he just carries the "momentum" of the launch when he does the DownB so it goes "up" a bit before going down.

This footage is shaky at best since you can't see if the 'double jump ring' appears before the down-b.
We do know that Mango used down-b while recovering and not once does he do a 2nd double jump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ1w0Dgh6Ik

(Time stamps - 1:29 / 2:52 / 3:20)

I won't count on it being true.
But I really hope it is. (or he gets some other recovery buff)

IMO, if Ganon gets a decent recovery (more air-speed / no free-fall side-b / double jump after down-b) and his Melee run speed (1.35), then he'll be a solid high tier.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

This footage is shaky at best since you can't see if the 'double jump ring' appears before the down-b.
We do know that Mango used down-b while recovering and not once does he do a 2nd double jump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ1w0Dgh6Ik

(Time stamps - 1:29 / 2:52 / 3:20)

I won't count on it being true.
But I really hope it is. (or he gets some other recovery buff)

IMO, if Ganon gets a decent recovery (more air-speed / no free-fall side-b / double jump after down-b) and his Melee run speed (1.35), then he'll be a solid high tier.

Maybe you're right, you're making me doubt now... i've tried to find more footage to confirm but no chance so far.

Plus I was thinking Nairo and Mew2King, who both tried Ganondorf a few times and made video analysis for many character would have talk about that big of a change. I mean it's pretty game changer so it would had come up in one of their character discussions by now...

Still, i'm rewatching that previous footage and even though there's no double jump ring, the animation looks pretty much like a jump. I played Ganondorf a lot in the in various smash games and i'm pretty sure Wizard foot kicks in immediatly (without jump-like animation frames).

Btw thanks for the insight, i guess we'll just have to wait for an 'ultimate' confirmation (pun intended)

 

[Androobie]

We do know that Mango used down-b while recovering and not once does he do a 2nd double jump:

We all know that, lad. The theory I proposed was that some mechanics were changed around for the E3 build.

 

[Boartobewild]

This footage is shaky at best since you can't see if the 'double jump ring' appears before the down-b.
We do know that Mango used down-b while recovering and not once does he do a 2nd double jump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ1w0Dgh6Ik

(Time stamps - 1:29 / 2:52 / 3:20)

I won't count on it being true.
But I really hope it is. (or he gets some other recovery buff)

IMO, if Ganon gets a decent recovery (more air-speed / no free-fall side-b / double jump after down-b) and his Melee run speed (1.35), then he'll be a solid high tier.

Well for one as Androobie stated, that match with Mango was one of the first matches from the Ultimate Exhibition presented to the public at large and since the game is still in developement and thus still subject to change ( if Sakurai being present at the invitationial, shaking his head at a typical soulcrushing Bayo combo ladder, despite new nerfs and immidiatley taking out a notepad to rectify this later, wasn't any indication of that fact), it's not unreasonable to assume, that they already patched a new build come Evo, which was almost 3 weeks later!

But even if this wasn't the case, we can't be 100% sure if Mango (who I'm pretty sure was never a really dedicated Ganon player, which was pretty apparent by the fact that he used his db immidiatley while still up high and always using wizkick despite being too close to the bottom once, which ended up screwing his recovery at the 3.20 mark, instead of saving the db jump just before using darkdive, to reserve the possibilty of a rising dodge or airial, like most ganon mains would) even considered trying whether db jump gets restored after airial wizkick, which yeah if it was known that Ganon didn't have this ability for the last two Games, why would you even try? Mango certainley didn't, as he followed up every wizkick with darkdive at once.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Well for one as Androobie stated, that match with Mango was one of the first matches from the Ultimate Exhibition presented to the public at large and since the game is still in developement and thus still subject to change ( if Sakurai being present at the invitationial, shaking his head at a typical soulcrushing Bayo combo ladder, despite new nerfs and immidiatley taking out a notepad to rectify this later, wasn't any indication of that fact), it's not unreasonable to assume, that they already patched a new build come Evo, which was almost 3 weeks later!

But even if this wasn't the case, we can't be 100% sure if Mango (who I'm pretty sure was never a really dedicated Ganon player, which was pretty apparent by the fact that he used his db immidiatley while still up high and always using wizkick despite being too close to the bottom once, which ended up screwing his recovery at the 3.20 mark, instead of saving the db jump just before using darkdive, to reserve the possibilty of a rising dodge or airial, like most ganon mains would) even considered trying whether db jump gets restored after airial wizkick, which yeah if it was known that Ganon didn't have this ability for the last two Games, why would you even try? Mango certainley didn't, as he followed up every wizkick with darkdive at once.

I never outright said that the Mango footage deconfirmed it. (Heck, I want it to be true)
But I'm just saying that right now we don't have solid confirmation about this tech returning while noting examples.

Simple as that.

 

[Space Detective]

it's not unreasonable to assume, that they already patched a new build come Evo, which was almost 3 weeks later!

Problem: The title screen came up at one point, and it dated the demo build to 2018/06, i.e. When E3 happened.

If they updated the demo, then they would probably update the build date.

 

[Boartobewild]

I never outright said that the Mango footage deconfirmed it. (Heck, I want it to be true)
But I'm just saying that right now we don't have solid confirmation about this tech returning while noting examples.

Simple as that.

Yeah, and I never intended/tried to imply such, no need to get so defensive, my friend.

Much like you, I'm just really hopeful about any positive change, that means Ganon finally gets more of the treatment and care he deserves, after Sakurai left us hanging pretty dry the last two games.( which also warrants/validates your skepticsim, as Ganon had one of the worst drops in viability and attenion from Melee, right next to Jigglypuff )

But given that Ganon got a special spot as a Represantative for the first exibhition, even before Captain Falcon, the character he was cloned from and is arguably the most recognisable, if not even the face of Smash himself, and every other positive change/detail up to now, just gives me more confidence/relief/hype and reason to believe ,that Sakurai finally took the time to listen to the fanbase and adress the issues, which had been plagueing the past two games up til now.

 

[Boartobewild]

Problem: The title screen came up at one point, and it dated the demo build to 2018/06, i.e. When E3 happened.

If they updated the demo, then they would probably update the build date.

Sorry to say, but that's prob the weakest basis for a counter argument I have ever heard, nothing personal against you though.

Before I begin presenting my long list of counter points, just let me say, that I've tried to find said title/intro screen, in just about every different presantation at the start of different recordings, life streams etc, where you would expect it, but couldn't find it, which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I would just urge you to post a screenshot or a video link with a timestamp next time, so nobody needs to waste their time trying to verify your claim.

Edit; well what do you know, I actually managed to find it after all, when I just casually watched and listened to the commentary I didn't care for before, it's around 28:18, in the video provided with the link from A albertoplus .

So with that being said, I'll just proceed with the assumption of your evidence being presented in your exact words, being true, just so we're clear, since this doesn't change my standpoint and reasoning on the matter at all.

1) To start of, you say that said title screen displayed merely the month and year of said build and nothing else. Not the exact week or day, nor even more relevant, any kind of patch/ beta note number of any sort and why should that even be the case? If you are a developer and are presenting an "unfinished/still up for change" version of the game at multiple tourneys for a live audience, do you think it's wise to include any sort of nod and clue that would suggest or get fans thinking how much the game has been proceeding/reworked at the current state of time?

2) Even if we were to take your assumption of developers presenting/recording patch and developement stage into account through the displayed date, how could you be sure that such a change/update to certain popular characters hasn't occured/been accomplished within the same month of it's first showing? Let me paint a picture. You're representing/unveiling Ganon as a highly requested/demanded homage/return to his melee form, even before a character such as Capt. Falcon, the very Char Melee Ganon is mostly cloned from and also happens to be the most recognisable Smash related, if not even Face of Smash( esp. when comp. to his own series xp) itself. Ganon gets right next to Ridley, quite possibly the best possible positive feedback/recognition and now as developer you might think to yourself, after hearing all the good first impressions of ganon returning to his Melee-self; "Huh so people really missed his Melee playstyle that much? Might as well give him one of his first very unique abilities/tools from that game back!"

3) We can't say/claim in good faith that restoring his Dbj wasn't possible during the first exhibition/invitational for the following two reasons;

a) None of the pro players who tried him out, have a long history with playing( let alone maining) Ganon regulary, which is evident by the inherent lackluster playstyle and utilization of Ganon's toolkit by most pro players besides Nairo. So it's not farfetched to assume, that the thought/idea, that would have been obv to us Ganon mains, to try and check if Ganon just maybe happens to have received the capability of restoring Dbj, due to the obv hearkening back to Ganon's Melee days, never even crossed their minds. Bc don't forget.......... for the last two smash titles, every player whether casual or dedicated main or not, had been conditioned to remember/keep in mind, that Ganon could no longer use a second Dbj after Wizkick, so why would you even think to try? Which brings me to the next point.....

b) In what sort of situations would you even use wizkick above or offstage? Well first off, without restored dbj. Airial Wizkick by itself is a pretty risky/commital action by it's nature, as it's a downward burst movement, that essentialy works like a semi divekick that locks you for a pretty substantial amount of time and distance. It's definititely not the sort of move you want to use if you are trying to recover next to the edge, let alone when recovering low. So basically it only makes sense to use it offstage, if you're either fullhop double jumping or happen to be recovering high. Is it the best option though? No, not by a longshot, most of the time, it's much safer to just make use of Ganon's slower fall speed to space and save your dbj for airials to make sure to get the the better of edge guarding opponents. So why would you even use wizkick offstage then? Simple, for mixups and keeping your opponent guessing/honest. Depending on the opponent (with troublesome airial or special options) having the choice of quickly diving under them and recovering low, or threatening them with the meteor spike are nice tools to fall back on.

When we take restored Dbj into account though, HOOO BOOI, do things get even more interesting. While it does help a little in the case of the high to low switch recovery, where the 2nd dbj does help to extend the recovery somewhat, it's main appeal lies in it it's superb safety and bait/punish potential, similair to old U-smash now that I think about it. With this option in tow, you can much more comfortably return above and offstage, due to the simple property of being able to react to all kind of scenarios with another jump+ airial/dodge/special ( just think of characters with multi jumps such as the kirby cast or greninja with his ridiculously safe dair) as long as used properly.

So as you can see, if you're not even aware of these specific available options, how would you even go about accidentaly implementing/ executing them, during a hype as hell match in a completely new game (engine)?

4) While I definitely understand your sceptical, more realistic outlook on the matter, esp considering the new patch placebo effect, that so often took control/deceived people during the multiple patch releases in Sm4sh, I'm just a bit puzzeled at your and other people's attitude, when presented with a pretty good example/footage which should be the best piece of evidence to prove it's existence. Granted it's a pretty shaky and no 100% clear indicator, but after re-watching it myself for about 50 times and more, whilst carefully pausing and trying to observe every frame, there are so many things that point to Nairo, most likely unintenionally, buffering a dbj to get out of knockback stun/tumble but almost immidiately inputting/transitioning into wizkick due to being extremely close to the upper blastzone and quickly wanting to return to the fray to help out his heavy buddy/ partner in crime, HGG- Ridley and using the restored dbj from wizkick to safely get back on stage.

I'm not claiming that I'm 100% confident in my opinion, really the best way to confirm this would be for someone to present Nairo with this matter and hear it from the man himself or asking any proplayer that get's another chance at using Ganon in Ultimate, to try/test it out themselves and record it.

 

[Androobie]

Sorry to say, but that's prob the weakest basis for a counter argument I have ever heard, nothing personal against you though.

Before I begin presenting my long list of counter points, just let me say, that I've tried to find said title/intro screen, in just about every different presantation at the start of different recordings, life streams etc, where you would expect it, but couldn't find it, which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I would just urge to post a screenshot or a video link with a timestamp, so nobody needs to waste their time trying to verify your claim.

So with that being said, I'll just proceed with the assumption of your evidence being presented as your exact wording, being true, just so we're clear, since this doesn't change my standpoint and reasoning on the matter at all.

1) To start of, you say that said title screen displayed merely the month and year of said build and nothing else. Not the exact week or day nor even more relevant, any sort of patch/ beta note number of any sort and why should that even be the case? If you are a developer and are presenting an "unfinished/still up for change" version of the game at multiple tourneys for a live audience, do you think it's wise to include any sort of nod and clue that would suggest or get fans thinking how much the game has been proceeding/reworked at the current state of time?

2) Even if we were to take your assumption of developers presenting/recording patch and developement stage into account through the displayed date, how could you be sure that such a change/update to certain popular characters hasn't occured/been accomplished within the same month of it's first showing? Let me paint a picture. You're representing/unveiling Ganon as a highly requested/demanded homage/return to his melee form, even before a character such as Capt. Falcon, the very Char Melee Ganon is mostly cloned from and also happens to be the most recognisable Smash related, if not even Face of Smash( esp. when comp. to his own series xp) itself. Ganon gets right next to Ridley, quite possibly the best possible positive feedback/recognition and now as developer you might think to yourself, after hearing all the good first impressions of ganon returning to his Melee-self; "Huh so people really missed his Melee playstyle that much? Might as well give him one of his first very unique abilities/tools from that game back!"

3) We can't say in good faith that restoring his Dbj wasn't possible during the first exhibition/invitational either for the following two reasons;

a) None of the pro players who tried him out, have a long history with playing( let alone maining) Ganon regulary, which is evident by the inherent lackluster playstyle and utilization of Ganon's toolkit by most pro players besides Nairo. So it's not farfetched to assume that the thought, that would have been obv to us Ganon mains, to try and check if Ganon just maybe happens to have received the capability of restoring Dbj, due to the obv hearkening back to Ganon's Melee days. Bc don't forget for the last two Games every player whether casual or dedicated main or no, had been conditioned to remember/keep in mind, that Ganon could no longer use a second Dbj after Wizkick, so why would you even think to try? Which brings me to the next point.....

b) In what sort of situations would you even use wizkick above or offstage? Well first without restored dbj. Airial Wizkick by itself is pretty risky/commital action as it's a downward burst movement, that essentialy works like a semi divekick that locks you for a pretty substantial time and distance. It's definititely not the sort of move you want to use if you are trying to recover next to the edge, let alone when recovering low. So basically it only makes sense to use it offstage, if you're either fullhop double jumping or happen to be recovering high. Is it the best option though? No, not by a longshot, most of the time it's much safer to just make use of Ganon's slower fall speed to space and save your dbj for airials to make sure to get the the better of edge guarding opponents. So why would you use even wizkick offstage then? Simple, for mixups and keeping your opponent guessing/honest. Depending on the opponent (with troublesome airial or special options) having the choice of quickly diving under them and recovering low, or threatening them with the meteor spike are nice techs to fall back on.

When we take restored Dbj into account though, HOOO BOOI, do things get even more interesting. While it does help a little in the case of the high to low switch recovery, where the 2nd dbj does help to extend the recovery somewhat, it's main appeal lies in it it's superb safety and bait/punish potential, similair to old U-smash now that I think about it. With this option in tow, you can much more comfortably return above and offstage, due to the simple property of being able to react to all kind of scenarios with another jump+ airial/dodge/special ( just think of characters with multi jumps such as the kirby cast or greninja with his ridiculously safe dair) as long as used properly.

So as you can see if you're not even aware of these specific available options, how would you even go about accidentaly implementing/ executing them, during a hype as hell match in a completely new game (engine)?

4) While I definitely understand your pessemistic, more realistic outlook on the matter, esp considering the new patch placebo effect, that so often took control/deceived people during the multiple patch releases in Sm4sh, I'm just a bit puzzeled at your and other people's attitude, when presented with a pretty good example/footage which should be the best piece of evidence to prove it's existence. Granted it's a pretty shaky and not a 100% clear indicator, but after re-watching it myself for about 50 times and more, whilst carefully pausing and trying to observe every frame, there are so many things that point to Nairo, most likely unintenionally, buffering a dbj to get out of knockback stun/tumble but almost immidiately inputting/transitioning into wizkick due to being extremely close to the upper blastzone and quickly wanting to return to the fray to help out his heavy buddy/ partner in crime, HGG- Ridley and using the restored dbj from wizkick to safely get back on stage.

I'm not claiming that I'm 100% confident in my opinion, really the best way to confirm this would be for someone to present Nairo with this matter and hear it from the man himself or asking any proplayer that get's another chance at using Ganon in Ultimate, to try/test it out themselves and record it.

wow

das a big post

 

[Boartobewild]

wow

das a big post

View attachment 155945

Yeah me and NintendoKnight tend to go a little above and beyond, when we are passionate about a certain topic/matter XD

 

[Androobie]

Next time Nario streams, I’ll be sure to ask him. I’ll report back with new information when I do.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Sorry to say, but that's prob the weakest basis for a counter argument I have ever heard, nothing personal against you though.

Before I begin presenting my long list of counter points, just let me say, that I've tried to find said title/intro screen, in just about every different presantation at the start of different recordings, life streams etc, where you would expect it, but couldn't find it, which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I would just urge to post a screenshot or a video link with a timestamp, so nobody needs to waste their time trying to verify your claim.

So with that being said, I'll just proceed with the assumption of your evidence being presented as your exact wording, being true, just so we're clear, since this doesn't change my standpoint and reasoning on the matter at all.

1) To start of, you say that said title screen displayed merely the month and year of said build and nothing else. Not the exact week or day nor even more relevant, any sort of patch/ beta note number of any sort and why should that even be the case? If you are a developer and are presenting an "unfinished/still up for change" version of the game at multiple tourneys for a live audience, do you think it's wise to include any sort of nod and clue that would suggest or get fans thinking how much the game has been proceeding/reworked at the current state of time?

2) Even if we were to take your assumption of developers presenting/recording patch and developement stage into account through the displayed date, how could you be sure that such a change/update to certain popular characters hasn't occured/been accomplished within the same month of it's first showing? Let me paint a picture. You're representing/unveiling Ganon as a highly requested/demanded homage/return to his melee form, even before a character such as Capt. Falcon, the very Char Melee Ganon is mostly cloned from and also happens to be the most recognisable Smash related, if not even Face of Smash( esp. when comp. to his own series xp) itself. Ganon gets right next to Ridley, quite possibly the best possible positive feedback/recognition and now as developer you might think to yourself, after hearing all the good first impressions of ganon returning to his Melee-self; "Huh so people really missed his Melee playstyle that much? Might as well give him one of his first very unique abilities/tools from that game back!"

3) We can't say in good faith that restoring his Dbj wasn't possible during the first exhibition/invitational either for the following two reasons;

a) None of the pro players who tried him out, have a long history with playing( let alone maining) Ganon regulary, which is evident by the inherent lackluster playstyle and utilization of Ganon's toolkit by most pro players besides Nairo. So it's not farfetched to assume that the thought, that would have been obv to us Ganon mains, to try and check if Ganon just maybe happens to have received the capability of restoring Dbj, due to the obv hearkening back to Ganon's Melee days. Bc don't forget for the last two Games every player whether casual or dedicated main or no, had been conditioned to remember/keep in mind, that Ganon could no longer use a second Dbj after Wizkick, so why would you even think to try? Which brings me to the next point.....

b) In what sort of situations would you even use wizkick above or offstage? Well first without restored dbj. Airial Wizkick by itself is pretty risky/commital action as it's a downward burst movement, that essentialy works like a semi divekick that locks you for a pretty substantial time and distance. It's definititely not the sort of move you want to use if you are trying to recover next to the edge, let alone when recovering low. So basically it only makes sense to use it offstage, if you're either fullhop double jumping or happen to be recovering high. Is it the best option though? No, not by a longshot, most of the time it's much safer to just make use of Ganon's slower fall speed to space and save your dbj for airials to make sure to get the the better of edge guarding opponents. So why would you use even wizkick offstage then? Simple, for mixups and keeping your opponent guessing/honest. Depending on the opponent (with troublesome airial or special options) having the choice of quickly diving under them and recovering low, or threatening them with the meteor spike are nice techs to fall back on.

When we take restored Dbj into account though, HOOO BOOI, do things get even more interesting. While it does help a little in the case of the high to low switch recovery, where the 2nd dbj does help to extend the recovery somewhat, it's main appeal lies in it it's superb safety and bait/punish potential, similair to old U-smash now that I think about it. With this option in tow, you can much more comfortably return above and offstage, due to the simple property of being able to react to all kind of scenarios with another jump+ airial/dodge/special ( just think of characters with multi jumps such as the kirby cast or greninja with his ridiculously safe dair) as long as used properly.

So as you can see if you're not even aware of these specific available options, how would you even go about accidentaly implementing/ executing them, during a hype as hell match in a completely new game (engine)?

4) While I definitely understand your pessemistic, more realistic outlook on the matter, esp considering the new patch placebo effect, that so often took control/deceived people during the multiple patch releases in Sm4sh, I'm just a bit puzzeled at your and other people's attitude, when presented with a pretty good example/footage which should be the best piece of evidence to prove it's existence. Granted it's a pretty shaky and not a 100% clear indicator, but after re-watching it myself for about 50 times and more, whilst carefully pausing and trying to observe every frame, there are so many things that point to Nairo, most likely unintenionally, buffering a dbj to get out of knockback stun/tumble but almost immidiately inputting/transitioning into wizkick due to being extremely close to the upper blastzone and quickly wanting to return to the fray to help out his heavy buddy/ partner in crime, HGG- Ridley and using the restored dbj from wizkick to safely get back on stage.

I'm not claiming that I'm 100% confident in my opinion, really the best way to confirm this would be for someone to present Nairo with this matter and hear it from the man himself or asking any proplayer that get's another chance at using Ganon in Ultimate, to try/test it out themselves and record it.

That pretty much wraps everything on the subject... i guess.

As for asking Nairo you could do it on twitter (or anybody with a twitter account for that matter) #asknairo he's doing Q&As on his youtube channel.

Btw that's a great idea. This way we could be 100% sure.

Edit:
Sorry didn't see your post, Androobie but i guess if the question comes up multiple times it gets more chance of being answered.

 

[Androobie]

Well, if this does happen to be true, how will Ganon fare in the theoretical meta?

 

[Boartobewild]

Well, if this does happen to be true, how will Ganon fare in the theoretical meta?

If I try to think/guess as realistically/objectively as possible, pretty similair to his melee tier placing, a very solid upper mid tier, high tier if things go ideally.

But I am still hesitant to try making accurate judgements, despite both Mewt2 king and Esam claiming/placing Ganon in high tier, since there are still so many things we can't take into account without playing/testing the game out itself and there's still gonna be quite a lot of buffs and nerfs and other kinds of game play/mechanic adjustments before the game finally hits the shelves, so I'll just leave my reserved/optimistic opinion at that.

 

[Androobie]

Guys, the dream is dead...

https://clips.twitch.tv/ArbitrarySucculentManateeFUNgineer

 

[NintendoKnight]

Yeah me and NintendoKnight tend to go a little above and beyond, when we are passionate about a certain topic/matter XD

On the topic of double jump restoration from aerial down b, I went over the footage where Nairo supposedly used it and rewatched in slow motion.

That was not a double jump to down b. That was just the aerial wizard's foot animation kicking in. I had heard somewhere that there was a degree of hitstun canceling, but not in the way it was in Brawl. I think this might have been an example of it.

Guys, the dream is dead...

https://clips.twitch.tv/ArbitrarySucculentManateeFUNgineer

The clip doesn't seem to exist.

Regardless, I know Nario did not perform it in the footage. I haven't gone over other footage, yet, however.

 

[Androobie]

The clip doesn't seem to exist.

Well, he said you can’t perform a double jump in that way. He was just trying to recover faster.

 

[meleebrawler]

Double jump or no, that upward boost is still unusual compared to all other uses of the move I've seen. Could just be one of those jank demo things that is patched on release.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Well, he said you can’t perform a double jump in that way. He was just trying to recover faster.

Case closed then...

Thx for looking into it mate.

 

[Boartobewild]

Case closed then...

Thx for looking into it mate.

That's a damn shame, oh well, here's hoping, that we still get any sort of meaningful buff to our recovery til the game comes out.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Right.

At least... maybe with this badass new sword Ganon will kick every character's butt so hard we'll never even have to recover

 

[Boartobewild]

Right.

At least... maybe with this badass new sword Ganon will kick every character's butt so hard we'll never even have to recover

OR, like Quillion 's case, using everything,
BUT GANON'S BADASS ARMORSLAYER
and just relying on his unlimited RAW POWAAAH